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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: CU on Saturday 28 September 19 11:49 BST (UK)
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Looking for William Norman Ashton born 25 Oct 1895 Adswood Cheadle Cheshire.
Known to the family as Norman. Youngest child from a large family of 9 children
son of Stephen Joule Ashton and mother Mary Elizabeth nee Wood
Last seen in Stockport on the 13 May 1920
Anyone seen him after this date please.
Thank you.
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Was he still in the Civil Service in 1920?
(According to father’s probate record, 1917).
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I have no idea. I have seen that one on the ship log with a wife, but when I traced him back it was not him.
Thank you.
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I do have his father will but have not seen that gives Norman occupation
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I have no idea. I have seen that one on the ship log with a wife, but when I traced him back it was not him.
Thank you.
I haven't seen the one you refer to here.
I just saw that he was the executor of his father's estate in 1917 - ‘a civil service student’ and named again in a note dated 1920 re Cuthbert’s effects.
Is this the 1920 reference?
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No, it is a ref to when the family estate (Father) was broken up and each child was pay out. The date state on the paper work when he signed for his share was 13 May 1920.
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Father Stephen must have died just before Cuthbert’s war gratuity was paid and it was put into Stephen’s estate and settled December 1920 with William N named as executor. I think that’s what it looks like.
I was thinking if he was in the Civil Service he could be anywhere. Presumably, no address on any paperwork.
Have you researched other family members?
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Have you checked the Norman Ashton born 26th November 1895 who is a Civil Servant in 1939?
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There is a birth in Bolton which matches that one, Heatherjulie. :-\
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There is a birth in Bolton which matches that one, Heatherjulie. :-\
What a shame ;D
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I have been research all the families for over 40 years now.
William Norman is the only one I can not find out what happen to him.
I am now going to start all over again with him and see if there is any hope in finding him.
Stephen Joule Ashton, his father died 29 July 1917 after his brother.
Cuthbert died on the 22 Oct 1916 in France.
The family estate was very large and took some sorting out. From Stephen death in 1917 until 1920. I do have lots of family papers and am going through them all again to see if I have missed anything.
I have seen the Norman with the date of 26 November 1995, but this is the wrong birthday. I am still going to check him out.
Thank you
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Hi, in 1911 he was with his father, it says Student Ireland Roomer !
No, it should be......….
Student "Inland Revenue"
Maggsie
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Thank you for that :)
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Hi, in 1911 he was with his father, it says Student Ireland Roomer !
No, it should be......….
Student "Inland Revenue"
Maggsie
Here is the family in 1911 with the correct transcription.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWSG-V4H
We aren’t allowed to post the one from a pay site but can link to FS.
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Yes I know that's why I only gave little info.
Maggsie
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Norman Ashton b Bolton is likely to be the one who married Dorothy Dearnaley in 1939 and they look like the couple you have in immigration records - the Retired Civil Servant. :-\
The marriage certificate would confirm it though.
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Yes, I have check the Norman re Bolton out, he is not my Norman.
That Norman was born in Bolton in 1896
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Have you considered this marriage entry?
Mar 1943 Wirral 8a 942 spouse M V MEALOR (see FreeBMD for full name)
don't know if his middle name is Norman as only middle initial 'N' given
Possible birth entry M V MEALOR Jun 1920 Wirral mn DAVIES
There is this entry death on FreeBMD :-\
Dec 1982 Haringey
M V Ashton but her birth year 1911
Edit - there is a Wirral 1947 Ashton/Mealor birth entry
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Have you considered the Norman William Ashton referred to in this link:
http://www.blackkalendar.nl/content.php?key=36100&termRef=Norman%20William%20Ashton
Further information is contained in the BNA in FindMyPast - in newspaper articles of February, March & April 1941.
Also (and this probably may not help at all) his dob is recorded as 25 August 1895 in his 1900 & 1903 school admission records in FindMyPast.
Willyam
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I will check out the marriage thank you Ladyhawk
Yes, seen him in the Wilton road Old Manor Institution on the 1939 register. Its not him. The photo is not like him either.
Thank you willyam
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Was your Norman William (William Norman) a Lieutenant (or Second-Lieutenant) in the Tank Corps during the First World War?
I ask this because the aforementioned inmate of the Old Manor in Salisbury was both formerly in the Tank Corps and was also "in the employ of the Civil Service Commissioners" when he married in 1921.
Not long after his marriage he was retired on an ill-health pension, due to the effects of shell-shock - which in turn probably lead to his admission to the Old Manor on 7 February 1927.
The sources of this information are 2 very detailed newspaper articles (in FindMyPast) from the Western Gazette issues of 8 & 15 November 1929.
Possibly the marriage certificate of Norman W Ashton to Ada C L Rolls in Christchurch (Hampshire) in June 1921 will show the name of his father?
Willyam
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Thank you willyam,but
my William Norman was in the Lancashire Fusiliers in WW1. My husband does a lot on soldiers of
the WW1. All 6 sons of Stephen and Mary have been done in
depth.
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Do you have a Lancs Fusiliers regimental number for William Norman that I, and my fellow Rootschatters, can follow for your William Norman - hopefully through to (god-willing) a service record?
Willyam
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Got all his records form WW1. My husband is a specialist in WW1 soldiers. It does not help me after
1918. I need after 1920 until his death. I want to know where he died.
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Did any of the family emigrate? Just wondering if he followed them. It must be really frustrating.
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Yes, they did USA, New Zealand and Canada.
The boys came back from New Zealand and Canada, but the sister stayed in the USA , she died
there on 17 Jan 1946. He didn't live with her and her husband. They had no children.
I have tried to see if he followed her which seems likely, but can't find any trace of him after he
signed the papers in Stockport on 13 May 1920.
I have traced all brothers and sisters from birth, until their deaths and burials and he never shows
up. I would of thought that he would of kept in touch, as the family have called their sons after
him.
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Hi,
I wondered if you had seen the death of a Norman Ashton at Windsor (Berkshire) in 1950 age 54.
Its a shot in the dark but is it worth considering?
Alan
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Yes, thank you Tall Al. On the 1939 gives his birthday as 6 Dec 1896, that is the wrong birthday
for my William Norman (born 25 Oct 1895)
I have kept him on a list I have though, to check out just in case all else fails.
Thanks again
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Clutching at straws and just thinking ::)
Is he ever mentioned in obituaries in the family?
In Percy’s army record, he isn't mentioned in the list of brothers but that is, if I recall, not long after his birth so perhaps that is the reason.
Also, the reference to him being a Student might be because of the date the will was written rather than the date of probate.
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Yes I have seen that death, but how would I prove it was mine through his death certificate.
He has given his date of birthday in 1939 6 Dec 1896.
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On Grand father Percy's army records which I have the originals, he only puts some of the family,
there was not room for them all. He doesn't put any of his sisters either.
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Do you have a Lancs Fusiliers regimental number for William Norman that I, and my fellow Rootschatters, can follow for your William Norman
Got all his records form WW1. My husband is a specialist in WW1 soldiers.
It does not help me after 1918. I need after 1920 until his death.
I want to know where he died.
We know you are looking for his death and you have all his WW1 records but you didn't give William's regimental number when answering willyam question......
What occupation & address did his Army record give?
Who was the next of kin?
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Occupation Civil servant
31 Station road Hazel Grove
next of kin Father Stephen Ashton
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Please forgive me if I seem to be chiding you but, given that you are seeking the help of experienced Rootschatters (i.e. well beyond myself), I do not understand your reticence in disclosing the soldier number for your Norman William
With this key piece of information many fresh sets of eyes & minds on his service record (which I, at least, have not been able to find) may be able to evince a nugget that could lead to the beneficial outcome that you have very long sought.
In my own experience, when I eventually found the WW1 service record for my potential Grandfather, even though he had changed his name and said that he was 5 years older than he was, what was revealed dramatically (and very productively) changed the entire landscape of my research.
By the way, I should have pointed out sooner that the image associated with the earlier blackkalendar link was not that of Norman William. Given that a) he was never convicted and b) that the website had no other information regarding him - it was solely a "stock" image included for effect.
Willyam
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I do not know what you are implying, but I am at the present in France researching
the 9th Royal Fusiliers and do not have his number to hand. I can assure you that
there is nothing in his record that can help find him after 1920.
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That's a shame because I do believe that the information contained in Norman's service record (which I [and perhaps others] have not found online when searching by name only) could well help to resolve an intriguing conundrum that has emerged from certain other information that you have provided.
The resolution of this conundrum could possibly in turn unlock the mystery of the whereabouts of Norman after the distribution of his Father's Estate.
Willyam
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That's a shame because I do believe that the information contained in Norman's service record (which I [and perhaps others] have not found online when searching by name only) could well help to resolve an intriguing conundrum that has emerged from certain other information that you have provided.
The resolution of this conundrum could possibly in turn unlock the mystery of the whereabouts of Norman after the distribution of his Father's Estate.
Willyam
What do you mean? What is the intriguing conundrum that has emerged?
You are implying that information is being withheld.
I am one who has searched to no avail but I don’t understand your assertions in this post.
Heywood
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I feel the same way Heywood, but I think I best just press on trying to find William Norman and take no notice. Hopefully I will find him one day. Thank you all for your help.
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Hello Heywood,
I am just off to get the car MOT'd but I will respond to you when I get back.
Willyam
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Heywood,
It is not my intention to imply that information that we cannot find is being withheld.
I just find it frustrating that we cannot access, whether directly or indirectly, something that could enable us to assist with an unconditional request for help.
The nature of the conundrum that I have referred to is as follows.
Given that a) we are reliably informed that he served with the Lancashire Fusiliers and b) that his father Stephen’s death was registered in Stockport, I am intrigued as to why Norman applied for & obtained probate via the London Probate Registry - and not via the (local) Manchester & District Registry.
Additionally, I am further intrigued by the fact that probate was granted within less than 3 months after Stephen’s death - given that Norman may then have been on active service.
It is both my understanding and my personal experience that probate, in respect of a death that occurs anywhere in England & Wales, may be applied for at any Registry in England or Wales.
Indeed, when my sister-in-law died in Hyde in 2010 my wife (as her Executor) applied for & obtained probate via the Oxford Registry - rather than via the Manchester Registry.
She did this because it was conveniently the nearest Registry to where we live - which makes me wonder if Norman might have taken a similar approach, if he was perhaps at that time resident in or near to London.
Whilst there may be any number of reasons why Norman chose the London Registry, my hope is that his service record might reveal that he was discharged from the Fusiliers sometime before his father’s death and that, following his discharge, he had gone to London in furtherance of his Civil Service career.
Then, when his father subsequently died, he found it more convenient to process the probate application in London.
If that is the case then it could justify reorienting the post-1920 search for Norman towards London & the Home Counties.
Willyam
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I feel I must answers you. The reason why probate in London Probate. Stephen will was all tied up with his Father Will, which was a will trust. Probate had been granted to Stephen Uncle back on 22 July 1867 and eventually by an order of the Court dated 20 July 1916 the Public Trustee was appointed to be sole trustee of the said Will.
We have many lawyers in the family even today.
I could go on but it will NOT help me find William Norman Ashton after the date I asked for.
My Friend as sent from England other information from Stockport newspapers
Soldier Families From Hazel Grove.
Sir on reading your issue of last week my attention was drawn to the photo of Mr Sykes and his patriotic family. It is indeed one which any father can be justly proud about and I hasten to congratulate the worthy father on the possession of so many gallant and worthy sons and I wish them every luck and a safe return - to their father and mother. But while giving the father in question every praise I must on be half of our own village, Bullock Smithy, draw attention to your remark, in which you said you knew of no one in the district with such a patriotic record. We have in Hazel Grove a father who can easily beat even such a splendid record. The name of this gentleman in question is Mr Ashton of Station road Hazel Grove. He has six sons serving in the army. Their names and regiments are as follows, Percy R.A.M.C in the Dardanelles, Stephen Royal Marines in Serbia, Clarence Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby) in France, Cuthbert Northumberland Fusiliers stationed at Morpeth, Norman Lancashire Fusiliers Cavendish Park Barrow in Furness and Reginald with the Anzacs somewhere in the Dardanelles.
Mr Ashton the father of these gallant sons is a prominent and well respected member of the Hazel Grove Conservatives Club and needless to say the members consider it a very high honour to have a member with such a proud record in their midst.
Stockport 7 Jan 1917
A Soldiers family...A good deal of interest has been aroused in the village by the fact that Mr Ashton of Station road has no less than six sons serving their King and Country. Percy who was in Canada when war was declared, came over with the Canadians and is now in the Dardanelles, Stephen , Royal Marines was on HM ship The Iron Duke, but has been sent somewhere in charge of a big gun , where has not transpired, Cuthbert is with the Northumberland Fusiliers stationed at Morpeth, Norman is in the 4th Battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers in camp at Barrow in Furness, Reginald in with the Australians and Clarence who has been wounded in the leg but is now better and in the fighting line is with the Derby and Notts Regiment
I hope this will be an end to the matter. Sadly I didn't need your kind of help willyam
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Thank you for this most informative clarification.
Willyam
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This thread is now closed #Thank you
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Hello CU,
This thread is now closed #Thank you
There has been further interest in your topic but your last message is putting off a member replying to you - are you sure you wish no further replies on this topic ?
Regards
Sarah
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This thread is now closed #Thank you
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so I am guessing that mean's no you wish no further replies then.