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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: garlands on Saturday 28 September 19 22:05 BST (UK)
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Mary CARROLL was born somewhere in Scotland between 13.01.1905 and 12.01.1906. I have found 9 instances of that name in that period, so I need to eliminate 8 of them. The lady I seek was still a spinster in 1939.
If anyone has a Mary CARROLL whose birth date fits and who married (or died) before 1940, I should be most grateful to know of her.
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I don't know these Mary's but you could possibly rule out the ones born in Shotts. Colinton and Coatbridge as there are possible corresponding deaths in these areas between 1905 and 1908
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Mary born in Dairy Ayr possibly dies in 1988 in Kilmarnock and possibly marries in Dairy 1931 which could rule her out
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On https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ there are 15 Mary Carroll birth registration, 5 death registration and 10 on the 1911 census.
Like Wendy I’ve tried to eliminate a few but it’s a bit of a minefield, do you have anything else to narrow it down, for instance another family member might produce a 1911 census result.
Colin
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Wendy - that's fantastic; I thought it might be possible to eliminate 2 , but to lose 4 is great. Many thanks for your efforts.
Col - I picked up my data on scotlandspeople.gov. You're right, there are 15 births in the two years 1905/6, but 6 of them were after 12.01.1906, so I eliminated them. I'm afraid I have no further details; I thought for a while that I had her sister, but that turned out not to be so. It looks like I shall have to try to tie-down the remaining 5 somehow. Anyway, thanks for your interest and input
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Hi, thanks for your reply, can you post the ones you are left with and I will have another look.
Colin
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You may know this but there were 13 Mary Carroll marriages in Scotland in 1939/1940 but no deaths for one born 1905 +/- 1 year.
Colin
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Colin,
I'm left with:-
1. Mary, b 01.02.1905, Tradeston, Glasgow to George & Mary (nee Smith) m 21.05.1902, Cavan, Ireland
2. Mary, b 26.06.1905, Dalziel, Lanark to Bartholomew & A*** formerly Borland (nee Wilson) m 17.02.1904, Glasgow
3, Mary, b 26.10.1905, Greenock, Renfrew to Thomas & Bridget (nee Gahagan) m 21.07.1903 Greenock
4. Mary, b 21.11.1905, Cathcart, Renfrew to George & Lillian (nee Sutton) m 30.12.1902 Derbyshire
5. Mary Ellen, b 05.01.1906, Govan, Lanark to Patrick & Anne (nee Rooney) m 02.06.1899 Govan
Thanks for your kind offer
George
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George can you tell us where you have Mary Carroll in 1939 I'm guessing it's in England but which town county it may help to locate her
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Don't know if it helps identify or eliminate but Mary no. 3 is in Birkenhead Cheshire with her parents brother Thomas boarder Owen Cagahagan and cousin Mary Cagahagan according to Family Search
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW32-5RP
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Hi George
1. Mary, b 01.02.1905, Tradeston, Glasgow to George & Mary (nee Smith) m 21.05.1902, Cavan, Ireland……………..My Favourite
2. Mary, b 26.06.1905, Dalziel, Lanark there were 2 Births and and 2 marriages there for a MC 1926/1933
3, Mary, b 26.10.1905, Greenock, Renfrew maybe in Lancashire 1911
4. Mary, b 21.11.1905, Cathcart, Renfrew Maybe married 1932
5. Mary Ellen, b 05.01.1906, Govan, Died 1906
Sadly no Carrroll's in Tradeston, on 1911 census but they might be elsewhere by then?
Colin
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I think you can rule out the 2 Mary Carroll married in Dalziel the 1926 marriage possibly died in 1967 age 57 so 5 years to young and the one in 1933 possibly died in 1990 age 77 mother's MS McWilliams
So no 2 still not found
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Can't find a death in Scotland for no4 or her husband but he was born about 1909 in Lochore Fife and is there in 1911 with his father and brother
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Mary born in Dairy Ayr possibly dies in 1988 in Kilmarnock and possibly marries in Dairy 1931 which could rule her out
That is probably Dalry rather than Dairy :)
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Mary born in Dairy Ayr possibly dies in 1988 in Kilmarnock and possibly marries in Dairy 1931 which could rule her out
That is probably Dalry rather than Dairy :)
Yes blinking auto correct
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Wendy,
Mary spent the early part of 1939 in London, but towards the end she was living at 84 Craigneuk Street, Craigneuk, Wishaw, Lanarkshire. I've not, as yet, searched the 1939 Register for her.
Once again, thanks to you, Colin and Forfarian for your great efforts. I've not had a chance to study all your latest efforts, but my first impression is that the Mary I'm seeking was No.2, born in Dalziel. Do you think you've dug up enough for me to reach this conclusion or is there still more research needed?
George
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George there's a death of a Mary Carroll no other name 1949 age 43 in Dalzeil have you looked at this one should give parents names including mother's ms if known by the informant
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There's 5 Mary Carroll in the 1939 in London with no married name and had a look at the valuation rolls for 1940 couldn't see an obvious one do you know if she was living with anyone else in Wishaw at that time
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May have found something in 1940 at 84 Craigneuk Wishaw the Tennant is a Barclay Carroll also found a death of a Barclay Carroll in 1951 age 87 in Shotts Lanarkshire or also a Barclay Carroll death in 1997 age 74 in Forth also Lanarkshire
There's also a Barclay Carroll in 1901possible parents John and Ann in Dalzeil doesn't match the parents for Mary that you have but could be related
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Quote the Mary I'm seeking was No.2, born in Dalziel.
I have to pose this question just so that I am clear.
If Mary was a spinster in London in 1939, how can she be one of the two born in Daziel both of whom appear to be married 1926/33
Colin
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Wendy,
It certainly looks as if you've found one of Mary's close relatives, but see Colin's latest post
George
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George both Marys are on the 1911 census Dazeil.
The one you mention has BARTHO 48 & ANNIE 47 MARY is 5
The other Mary is 6 with parents and two siblings.
Colin
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Colin,
Very valid point. I thought that there was no marriage for this Mary but, certainly, if she were married then that would rule her out.
Incidentally, I have only one Mary born in Dalziel, not two.
On a related point, the name BORLAND (Mary from Dalziel's mother's name) crops up somewhere in a DNA test, which I'm trying to locate.
George
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Colin,
Is it possible that the second Mary was born after 12.01.1906?
George
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Hello all,
Please excuse me for not replying for the next few days I am leaving shortly to attend a funeral in West Wales and shall not be on-line again until Thursday
George
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Two birth registrations no way of telling date with out using credits.
CARROLL MARY 1905 Dalziel
CARROLL MARY 1906 Dalziel
Two marriages
CARROLL MARY MCELROY PATRICK 1926 Dalziel
CARROLL MARY GLACKIN JAMES EDWARD 1933 Dalziel
Colin
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Colin,
I used credits to get details and the 1906 birth was after 12.01.06; the other was dated 26.06.05, so she is the only one of interest.
George
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BARCLAY CARROL 1895 Birth registered Dalziel
Barclay 5 in 1901 noted as BARTLEY age 16 in 1911 no Mary in family but Bartholomew and family are nearby.
Colin
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My thinking is that Barclay is a cousin or uncle through her father and she went to live him at some point after or during 1939
Have you ruled out the death in 1949 Dalzeil
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Mary, b 01.02.1905, Tradeston, Glasgow to George & Mary (nee Smith) m 21.05.1902, Cavan, Ireland……………..My Favourite, because this was the only one I could not rule out.
1911 Hutchesontown, Glasgow
GEORGE CARROLL 30 MARY 37 LIZZIE 8 MARY 6
It is possible this is George 1920 - 1935 but not 1940 the last valuation Roll on SP
GEORGE CARROLL Tenant HOUSE 8 PONTILAND SQUARE CRAIGNEUK WISHAW DALZIEL
Colin
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Mary, b 01.02.1905, Tradeston, Glasgow to George & Mary (nee Smith) m 21.05.1902, Cavan, Ireland……………..My Favourite, because this was the only one I could not rule out.
1911 Hutchesontown, Glasgow
GEORGE CARROLL 30 MARY 37 LIZZIE 8 MARY 6
It is possible this is George 1920 - 1935 but not 1940 the last valuation Roll on SP
GEORGE CARROLL Tenant HOUSE 8 PONTILAND SQUARE CRAIGNEUK WISHAW DALZIEL
Colin
Sorry Colin I'm going for No 2 (sounds like a game show)
See reply 11 why I think the 2 marriages are not Mary who was born in 1905
You found Barclay with his family in 1911 and Bartholomew and family close by although you say no Mary
Then Mary ends up living at the same address that Barclay is the tennant in 1940 in Dalzeil
And there is a death of a Mary Carroll no other surname in 1949 Dalzeil of the right age
what do you think
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First post from George.
"Mary CARROLL was born somewhere in Scotland between 13.01.1905 and 12.01.1906. I have found 9 instances of that name in that period, so I need to eliminate 8 of them. The lady I seek was still a spinster in 1939".
So I do not think Mary was born in Dalzeil but it is clear she finished up staying there in 1940.
Colin
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First post from George.
"Mary CARROLL was born somewhere in Scotland between 13.01.1905 and 12.01.1906. I have found 9 instances of that name in that period, so I need to eliminate 8 of them. The lady I seek was still a spinster in 1939".
So I do not think Mary was born in Dalzeil but it is clear she finished up staying there in 1940.
Colin
Yes but I don't believe that either of the 2 marriages in 1926 and 1933 is Mary Carroll daughter of Bartholomew and Ann as possible deaths in 1967 and 1990 don't match age wise according to Scotland People index they were born c 1910 and 1913 respectively with a mother's MS McWilliams for the 1990 one
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Many thanks for all your tremendous efforts. I am now back on line, so will try to assimilate all your researches tomorrow.
George
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Wendy
I've just acted on your suggestion re death in 1949 of MC in Dalziel. Unfortunately, not ours. Born in 1906, but must have been after 12th Jan. Parents were Joseph & Grace (nee Jackson)
George
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I've searched 1939 - 1990 for the death of MC. There is nothing more in Dalziel, but altogether there are 11, viz
1. Mary Purvis, 1939, age 43, College
2. Mary, 1949, 43, Dalziel
3. Mary Ann, 1963, 58, Aberdeen
4. Mary, 1964, 59, Glasgow South
5. Mary, 1967, 61, Kilpatrick
6. Mary Jane, 1977, 71, Kilpatrick
7. Mary O'Brien, 1980, 76, Leith
8. Mary Rigali, 1981, 76, Glasgow Martha Street
9. Mary Rowena, 1986, 81, Dumfries
10. Mary, 1986, 82, Newington
11. Mary, 1988, 82, Kilmarnock
It might be worth investing some credits in #4, but none of the others looks very promising. What do you think?
George
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One more for consideration George
MCLAREN RICHARD CARROLL MARY 1946 Married Prestonpans and Cockenzie
MCLAREN MARY 80 SMITH 1985 Died Coatbridge
Remember:
Mary, b 01.02.1905, Tradeston, Glasgow to George & Mary (nee Smith) m 21.05.1902, Cavan, Ireland
Colin
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Colin,
I think you've just put the last piece into the jigsaw puzzle!!!
I reckon that leaves only the Dalziel birth unaccounted for; do you agree?
George
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Well you may recall I was never a fan of Daziel albeit that she may have been there with a relative in 1940. Regards Colin
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Agreed, but who was it who knocked over a goodly proportion of the candidates? And, especially, who struck down the last one?
George
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Pity about the Mary who died in Dalzeil not being the one you are looking for A different approach you could try is looking into Barclay and see if you can connect him to one of the fathers of the Mary's He doesn't appear to marry so if it was him Mary went to live with when she moved back to Scotland she maybe the informant on his death certificate
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Ok may have found something else look at this family in 1891
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KS63-44K
Could this be the parents of Barclay with a son Bartholomew possibly the father of Mary Carroll
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Possible marriage in 1882 in Govan Lanarkshire a John Carroll to a Rose Ann Mulvaney
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Wendy,
Crumbs, you've been busy! I shall do as you suggest.
I've checked the death of Mary CARROLL in Glasgow (South); she was a married lady, so not 'ours'. Is it worth looking at any of the others?
George
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Wendy & Colin,
Are you happy to conclude that Mary from Dalziel is the lady I've been seeking, or do you think that more needs to be done before we can reach that conclusion?
George
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I would be inclined to check the other Kilpatrick death number 5 and on looking at the census again I now think that Bartholomew Mary's father is a brother of John (father of Barclay) making Mary and Barclay cousis I noticed Rose Ann Carroll died in 1892 so she won't be Barclays mother maybe a second marriage for John and yes to Mary born in Dalzeil as the Mary you are looking for
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Although I'M sure we have the right Mary there's no actual proof to connect her to the one born to Bartholomew if you could find away to connect the families of Bartholomew and Barclay do you have the names of Bartholomew parent's maybe getting John Carroll marriage to Rose Ann to check his parents or Barclays death and the informant is a cousin Mary Carroll as connecting a Mary to Barclay I think is the key with him being the tennant in 1940 at the same address as you have Mary at in 1939
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Wendy,
For once, I managed to beat you to it!!!
I had already checked out #5 - nothing doing, she was a married woman
George
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Its a bit late at night for me but I'm inclined to suggest a well known saying from the past,
"I think the answer lies in the soil"
Colin
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George I'm now wondering if the family moved abroad as have found a CEF record for a Bartley Carroll Father John born Lanarkshire father living in Craigneuk age a bit out for the Bartholomew in 1891 but his sister is in British Columbia found her death in Vancouver 1965 and a possible death for Bartley in 1969 as we appear to be struggling to find Mary or Barclay after 1939/40 could it be possible they to emigrated as well
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I no longer think this is the correct Mary, the one below was likely born in Prestonpans in 1925 and died there in 2007. They had children there up until 1966, 5 of whom had the middle name Carroll.
MCLAREN RICHARD CARROLL MARY 1946 Married Prestonpans and Cockenzie
I think the Mary below was a spinster. A Mary McLaren was born Coatbridge in 1906, her mother was likely a Smith, who probably married a McLaren there in 1891.
MCLAREN MARY 80 SMITH 1985 Died Coatbridge.
Colin
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Colin,
Sorry, I must be missing the point somewhere as I can't understand your last post. The Mary I seek was born between 13.01.1905 and 12.01.1906, she was a spinster in 1939 and could very well have married in 1946, so where does the Mary born in 1925 fit in?
George
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Hi George,
The spinster was Mary McLaren who died 1985 was nothing to do with Mary Carroll.
Mary Carroll born 1925 married Richard Mclaren. No your Mary Carroll.
Colin
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Colin,
Fine (I think), but does that mean that the 1946 marriage might be 'my' Mary? It would certainly explain why I've been unable to find a record of her death.
George
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Wendy,
Thanks for those 3 postings; I shall follow-up on them later
George
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The 1946 marriage is not your Mary Carroll.
Colin
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Thanks.
Pity - it would have been nice.
George
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However of the two marriages in Dalziel, the one that married James Glackin was more likely born 1910, which means of the two births there 1806 & 1806, there was only one marriage.
CARROLL MARY GLACKIN JAMES EDWARD 1933 Dalziel
MARY GLACKIN mmn TONER died age 74 Livingston 1984
JAMES GLACKIN mmn MCGUIRE died age 78 Livingston 1993
Not sure about the Mary who married Patrick below.
CARROLL MARY MCELROY PATRICK 1926 Dalziel
PATRICK MCELROY age 46 died Dalziel 1949
MARY MCELROY may have remarried
So this means the one born 1905 Dalziel could be the one?
Colin
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Wendy and Colin,
There is a DNA link between the Mary we've been seeking and the BORLAND line at the level of 3rd or 4th cousin. There is also a hospital record linking Mary CARROLL with an Ena WILSON. These, coupled with all the fantastic work you've done in helping to eliminate the other possibilities, makes me 100% certain that Mary, the daughter of Bartholomew and Annie CARROLL of Dalziel, is OUR Mary.
I can't thank you enough for all your efforts
George
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Well done glad I could help to figure it out
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Wendy,
You were a great help. I might have got there in the end (or not), but your help must have knocked weeks off how long it would have taken me.
Thanks again
George
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Wendy
Before I mark this Complete, I'm going to follow-up your posts #45, #46 & #49
George
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Here is the death of Mary John and Rose Ann daughter
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FLTG-LKZ
And their sons marriage
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JD85-RDJ
John has the middle name of Bartholomew o the birth cert of his daughter Rose Ann that is how I found them
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTXB-JLS
Maybe somebody on the Canadian board can find a obituary for Mary and provide a link to your Mary
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Thanks. I'm glad I kept the topic open.
I've purchased the record of Bartholomew's birth to John CARROLL and Rose Ann (nee MULVENNEY) on 11.01.1889 in Blantyre. They married on 06.02.1882 in Govan
George
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An update for all you marvellous people who've been helping on this topic.
After various other attempts, a letter to the editor of the Newcastle (NSW) Herald has elicited 3 responses which have enabled us to establish contact with missing Australian relatives.
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Thanks for the update have you confirmed the correct Mary
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Wendy,
Yes, I'm about as certain as can be in this game.
George