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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Colin Cruddace on Sunday 29 September 19 23:14 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
It's been several years now since I did serious research, and have lost touch with techniques.
IF birth dates are shown in a free search of the 1939 Register I would be interested to know what my grandparents gave. They were not very truthful on their marriage in 1912 as there was a big age gap, and I have a memory of my mother making a 'special' birthday cake for my Grandma when she found out her proper age when trying to claim her old age pension, so I am just curious.
My grandparents were CRUDDACE, Benjamin Bainbridge and Esther (Ettie), living in Upper Archer Street, Darlington, County Durham.
Regards,
Colin
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As you are asking for a free search what is stopping you from doing that yourself?
Once the correct people have been found then the exact date of birth can be worked out by systematically going through all the months until the correct one, and then doing the days.
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Is this his death?
Benjamin B Cruddace
Death Age: 69 Birth Date: about 1877
Registration Date: July 1946
Registration district: Durham North Western
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Did Esther remarry, and is this her death?
Esther Clark
Death Age: 85 Birth Date:about 1878
Registration Date: January quarter 1963 Durham
which would make them the same age.
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Once the correct people have been found then the exact date of birth can be worked out by systematically going through all the months until the correct one, and then doing the days.
I've forgotten how to do that (that's what happens when you get old!) and the rest just has me baffled so I'm assuming a straightforward date is not given.
Sorry that I am getting inept, but thanks for your advice.
Colin
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She is in several trees on ancestry, with birth as 1892 - is that what you believe? What evidence is there for that? Free 1939 supports 1877.
Did she really die in 1986?
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Did Esther remarry, and is this her death?
Esther Clark
Death Age: 85 Birth Date:about 1878
Registration Date: January quarter 1963 Durham
which would make them the same age.
Thanks for your interest Chempat. You have the correct details for my Grandad but Ettie died in 1986 after she remarried to James Clarke.
I am just curious about their ages in 1939.
Thanks,
Colin
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https://www.findmypast.co.uk/1939register
This shows 3 Esther Cruddace's on 1939, then one of them is 1877, if then click get extra information for a fraction of a second before screen blurs and you have to register(free).
So she was still telling lies in 1939, and only came clean later on for her pension?
15 years difference?
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Very odd this - the Esther Clark died 1986 had a birthdate of 28/1/1892 but Esther Cruddace shown (as posted already) as born 14/2/1877 - people may change their year of birth for whatever reason but don't usually change their actual birthday??
Annette
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Have you thought about looking for Esther in earlier census records? I see that her maiden name was Cooper.
Do you have the 1912 marriage certificate for Benjamin and Esther? If so you can use her father's name and occupation to look for the family in the 1911 census. Were they still in the Darlington area in 1911?
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Going by the info on the 1939 this looks likely for Esther's birth
COOPER, ESTHER ELIZABETH GOACHER
GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in ECCLESALL BIERLOW Volume 09C Page 417
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There is an 1881 census record for 53, Springwood Road, Heeley, Ecclesall Bierlow, Yorkshire & Yorkshire (West Riding)
Benjamin and Elizabeth Cooper living with her parents and their three children one of whom is Ester. Benjamin is a stone mason.
Registration district Ecclesall Bierlow
Archive reference RG11
Piece number 4640
Folio 115
Page 33
Do the father's details match at all with the 1912 marriage certificate?
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Colin has said about the difference in ages, the lies in 1912 marriage and her death after marriage to Clark (no E).
You would think he would know definitely when she died i.e. 1986.
So was she just totally confused as to who she was by her death, and the informants just got it wrong?
''special' birthday cake for my Grandma when she found out her proper age when trying to claim her old age pension, '
Wonder when this happened.
Are we now allowed to quote full details of 1939?
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This is the birth that the tree owners are referring to:
Esther Cooper mmn Chapman
GRO Reference: 1892 March Quarter in DARLINGTON
parents Henry Ashley Cooper, apparently, and Annie Chapman.
Not yet found one showing the actual marriage certificate(s).
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Hi Chempat
No you are not allowed to quote details from the 1939 register. All you can provide is the name and year of birth. Anyone wanting full details from the 1939 will have to take out a sub.
What Colin needs to do, if he hasn't yet done so, is to get the marriage cert for Benjamin
Marriages Mar 1912
Cooper Esther Cruddace Darlington 10a 5
Cruddace Benjamin B Cooper Darlington 10a 5
From that he will get father's details which may help with earlier census records.
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The marriage is quoted in one of those trees as 2nd January, and another says Holy Trinity, so presumably some one must be the source of that information.
Not yet found the 1939 attached to any tree.
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We really need Colin to come back to us with full details of the marriage certificate. Ages, occupations, where living, and Esther's father's details in particular.
Witnesses may be useful as well.
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Be wary of birth dates on 1939 Register; my grandpa gave the wrong day, month and year for his!
He was surprised when he found he qualified for the Old Age Pension. ::)
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Hi all,
Taking it that my post early this morning has been deleted for stating too much information from the 1939 register.You live and you learn.Accept my apologies.
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Don't worry about it Bro, you live and learn. You'll know for next time it is name and birth year only. To get any meaningful info from the 1939 a sub is the only way it can be accessed.
No doubt the 1921 census will be the same for a while until someone decides info from that can be public.
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If she was really born in 1877 and died in 1986, that would make her 109 when she died :-\
Or maybe she did die in 1963!
I can tell you what is in the 1939 free index, as I don't have a sub.
Esther Clark (Cruddace), born 1877, living in Darlington C.B., Durham. Address 17 Upper Archer Street.
Click on preview and it says ?? Cruddace is also on this record.
You then also get the TNA references in the address bar, most particularly 2671G/008. Which enables you to find everyone on the same page. You can also use "other household member" to see who is living with who.
That would be the free info I would give (not the references). As chempat said, you can work out the transcribed date of birth (might not be correct!). That's going a bit far for free info though.
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According to Free bmd it is James CLARK no E
Marriages Sep 1947
Clark James Cruddace Darlington 1a 645
Cruddace Esther Clark Darlington 1a 645
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Or maybe she did die in 1963!
She certainly did not. Probate for that one
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=clark&yearOfDeath=1963&page=11#calendar
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There is a probate record for an Esther Clark of 17 Raby Gardens Shildon County Durham widow died 23 February 1963 Probate Durham 13 May to Ralph Rodgerson Clark retired fitter and William Clark motor mechanic. Effects £301 2s
If this is James Clark's wife then he died before her.
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Could this be his death?
Deaths Mar 1950
Clark James 56 Durham C. 1a 370
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GG, I gave a link to that probate and it is likely to be Esther Clark nee Rodgerson.
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Looks like Jon is right. Tracing Ralph gives a birth year of 1901 and parents Arthur and Esther. Esther's maiden name was Rodgerson.
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Do we assume that Colin has the death certificate for Esther 1986?
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Maybe that 1939 date of birth is just completely wrong after all!
Esther Cooper baptized 16 Feb 1892 in Darlington. Parents Henry and Anne.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2FMK-JC9
Ties in with
Esther Cooper mmn Chapman
GRO Reference: 1892 March Quarter in DARLINGTON
parents Henry Ashley Cooper, apparently, and Annie Chapman.
Might be a school record for her in Darlington online, could give date of birth (hoping it's the same Esther!)
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Could this be her?
First name(s) Esther
Last name Cooper
Birth year 1892
Birth date 13 Jan 1892
Event year 1895
School name Darlington Holy Trinity School (infants)
Town Darlington
County Durham
No parents mentioned.
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That's interesting, it still doesn't quite match the date on the 1986 death. All very curious!
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Many apologies for leaving you in limbo, I've had a busy day. But not as busy as all of you!
Wow, what a response. Thank you all so much.
I have all the information on the families but to try and clear some of the points raised, Esther was born 28.1.1892 to Henry Ashley Cooper and Ann Chapman.
She married B.B. Cruddace 2.1.1912 at Holy Trinity, Darlington, she aged 21, he aged 30. (actual 19 and 34)
B.B. Cruddace died 1946 at Shotley Bridge Hospital.
She remarried the following year to James Clark (Darlington Register Office, no cert. obtained).
James died 8.9.1963 and Esther died 15.10.1986 age 94.
Thanks again to everyone.
Now to go over your postings again to see what I've missed.
Colin
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'She married B.B. Cruddace 2.1.1912 at Holy Trinity, Darlington, she aged 21, he aged 30. (actual 19 and 34)'
What was her Father's name and occupation on the marriage certificate?
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Could this be her?
First name(s) Esther
Last name Cooper
Birth year 1892
Birth date 13 Jan 1892
Event year 1895
School name Darlington Holy Trinity School (infants)
Town Darlington
County Durham
No parents mentioned.
It looks to be a racing certainty, with flexibility on birth day, but why? And admission to infant school aged 3 doesn't sound right
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Can you answer Chempat's question about Esther's father on the marriage certificate please?
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'She married B.B. Cruddace 2.1.1912 at Holy Trinity, Darlington, she aged 21, he aged 30. (actual 19 and 34)'
What was her Father's name and occupation on the marriage certificate?
Her father was Henry Cooper, Labourer
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Well that certainly matches with the 1901 census. Can't find them in 1911 for some reason.
Added: Just found Heny Jnr, Esther and William as Copper lodging at 21 Queen Street Darlington.