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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: akissling on Friday 11 October 19 02:46 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find out more information about Charles Newenham, born around 1805 and died 1850 and Ann Bowler, his wife, born in 1791 and died in 1865 Kinsale. They married in 1824 and had at least two children, William Henry born in 1829 and Elizabeth. I can't find much on Charles and what he did. I am trying to connect his wife Ann Bowler to my GGGgrandmother Mary Cole born around 1819. I know Mary Cole lived in Snugmore for part of her life and went back during difficult times in her married life. See related post where I was kindly helped with the place name Snugmore https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=634709.0 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=634709.0). Mary Cole was raised by her great aunt, Mary Bowler who married twice, Henry Massey and John Rice, Mary Cole's day school teacher). I think Ann Bowler might Mary's niece or some relation. Mary had one brother William but there is no evidence of a marriage. A nice person on this website was able to find Wm's death at Mary's residence in 1821 but there was not mention of other family members. I was not able to find an obituary of Ann Bowler Newenham's death. Any suggestions of places to find more information would be appreciated. Thanks.
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http://www.irelandoldnews.com/Cork/1847/FEB.html
On Tuesaday, the 16th inst., at Rincurran church, by the Rev. Richard Graves Meredyth, Alexander, eldest son of James Roche Dean, of the Cove of Kinsale, Esq., to Elizabeth, only daughter of Charles Newenham, of Snugmore, near Kinsale, Esq.
Marriage of ELIZABETH NEWENHAM
in 1847
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Kinsale
Returns Year 1847
Returns Quarter 1
Returns Volume No 6
Returns Page No 371
Marriage of ALEXANDER SHARP DEANE
in 1847
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Kinsale
Returns Year 1847
Returns Quarter 1
Returns Volume No 6
Returns Page No 371
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/i-want-to-get-a-copy-of-a-certificate-what-do-i-do
or one can walk into any Registry Office in Ireland and get a photocopy for 4 €uro which should give father's occupation
Be careful copying anything from https://www.myheritage.com/names/charles_newenham#
one has Charles passed away on month day 1887, at age 126 at death place. :o ;D
There is one there that has Elizabeth Deane as a Sibling of Charles............. ::)
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Thanks so much for the information and link! I have ordered the marriage certificate. Just to cloud things the Newenham family seems to have another Charles but this one is Charles B (for Burton). I appreciate the warning about the trees in MyHeritage! Again, thanks!
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https://nickreddan.net/newspaper/np_abst67.htm has some bits
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A James Roche Dean died 1876 age 76
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FR1L-N6V
An Elizabeth Deane Deane died 1896 age 71
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1896/05892/4671525.pdf
family 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/South_Dock/Mount_Street_Upper/1351500/
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/South_Dock/Mount_Street__Upper/85244/
just be aware that i did come across another Alexander Sharp Deane on Family Search
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FT1Q-QX9
oops seems to be the above family
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=d-45-3-7-020
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Thanks Hallmark for the "bits" and dathai for the information on the Deane family. It seems like the Charles Burton Newenham family and Charles Newenham descend from the same line and then to add to the confusion the Deane family appears in a few branches. There is also the brother of Elizabeth, William Henry Newenham, and of course, there is a WH from the Charles B line as well. He was a Captain in the army (WH) so I know he is not the one that I need. I will also order the marriage of William Henry Newenham to Isabella Moore (1851 Donnybrook, Dublin) in the hopes it might also give another clue. Again thanks for the help and suggestions.
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Church Baptism, Marriage and Burial results for Newenham
Displaying results 1 - 83 of 83. http://www.rootschat.com/links/01oi7/
Some of Cork lot in Dublin too
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Birth, Marriage and Death results for Newenham from ? to 1863 http://www.rootschat.com/links/01oi8/
Don't have Images yet.
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Thanks again Hallmark! For some reason when I click the link I get a Forbidden notice. Am I able to look it up in the directory? Again, thank you!
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https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
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All pre-1864 stuff are non-RC Marriages.
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Thanks for the search link and screenshots! Very helpful!
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Thanks for the search link and screenshots! Very helpful!
Easier than trying to explain ;D
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Are your part of Cork lot?
Detailed abstracts of wills of Newenham of Marybore' in Co. Cork and of Cork City, 1695 -- 1784.
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Detailed abstracts of wills of Newenham of Marybore' in Co. Cork and of Cork City, 1695 -- 1784.
Dublin: National Library of Ireland, Genealogical Office: Ms.139, pp.182-7
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Deanes... part of Cork lot and Dublin lot.
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m
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Some on Hore Pedigree which should sort some of the names you have.... to eliminate them or not!
Thomas Newenham Deane mentioned too.
https://archive.org/details/someaccountofear00hoar/page/30?q=newenham
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https://archive.org/details/officialcatalogu00cork/page/14?q=newenham
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Documents, mainly leases, relating to property of James Ronayne at Kinsale;
principal parties,
James Bowler, Lord Kinsale,
John Murryane; 1645-84.
Dublin: National Library of Ireland, D. 25,669-81
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(CJ 22/7/1756) – TO be set immediately the lands of Ballymachus, in the Barony of Kinnalea, within three miles of Kinsale, containing 250 acres of good pasture land, with a good farm, house, barn and stable, a young orchard near the sea convenient for manure. Proposals to be received by the widow Bowler in Paul-street, Corke, Administrix to her late husband Walter Bowler of Kinsale; by Mr. Barnabas Pressicks of Kinsale, or Riggs Falkiner, Esq; in Corke, N.B.
The said widow has a large garden and summer house, to set in Kinsale
https://corkgen.org/publicgenealogy/cork/potpourri/corkancestors.com/Kinsale.htm
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Other thread.... ::)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=756022.0
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Thanks for all of the new information! I will check out the links and try to rule some of the lines out. James Bowler is new name to me but the fact that he is in the same area might connect the families. It seems like the Bowlers (William and Walter as well) held a several positions (lawyer, sovereign) for a few generations specifically in Kinsale. The other thread that I did a few years ago on Mary Cole and Mary Bowler is the family that I am trying to connect to Charles Newenham and Ann Bowler. I linked my thread on Snugmore and forgot to link the second thread in my original post in this thread. Sorry about that. I believe that Ann Bowler Newenham is referenced in a letter that I have dated 1851, written by "Your ever attached brother, Harry", to Mary Cole. I will see what your links can help me figure out and the marriage certificate might tell me when I get it. It does seem like the Newenham and Bowler families have a long history in Cork. If I am able to connect the dots I will be sure to post them on this thread. Thanks again, I really appreciate the new information and new resources.
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Thanks for all of the new information! I will check out the links and try to rule some of the lines out. James Bowler is new name to me but the fact that he is in the same area might connect the families. It seems like the Bowlers (William and Walter as well) held a several positions (lawyer, sovereign) for a few generations specifically in Kinsale. The other thread that I did a few years ago on Mary Cole and Mary Bowler is the family that I am trying to connect to Charles Newenham and Ann Bowler. I linked my thread on Snugmore and forgot to link the second thread in my original post in this thread. Sorry about that. I believe that Ann Bowler Newenham is referenced in a letter that I have dated 1851, written by "Your ever attached brother, Harry", to Mary Cole. I will see what your links can help me figure out and the marriage certificate might tell me when I get it. It does seem like the Newenham and Bowler families have a long history in Cork. If I am able to connect the dots I will be sure to post them on this thread. Thanks again, I really appreciate the new information and new resources.
No Surname or Address for Harry? Is he a Cole?
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Another relative thought Mary was an only child but the letter says differently. No surname, just "Harry" and an Abbeyleix address (see previous thread) https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=684501.0
I tried finding a Henry Cole who attended Trinity College because in the letter he discusses working at Abbeyleix as probably a surgeon in training. He mentions that he has been assigned there by the governor and was going to be moved again and he hoped not back to Dublin. He seemed younger than Mary because he mentions being advised by both Mary and her husband James Oldham to take the position. It is a complicated story with many little clues but not enough the make all of the connection (probably like most families).
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Are you sure he went to Trinity?
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No I am not. That was the only one I could find when I was looking several years ago.
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Maybe RSCI ??
https://www.rcsi.com/dublin/about
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Another relative thought Mary was an only child but the letter says differently. No surname, just "Harry" and an Abbeyleix address (see previous thread) https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=684501.0
I tried finding a Henry Cole who attended Trinity College because in the letter he discusses working at Abbeyleix as probably a surgeon in training. He mentions that he has been assigned there by the governor and was going to be moved again and he hoped not back to Dublin. He seemed younger than Mary because he mentions being advised by both Mary and her husband James Oldham to take the position. It is a complicated story with many little clues but not enough the make all of the connection (probably like most families).
Ahhh.... it is on this thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=684501.0
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Apologies - I only stumbled on this thread now.
In relation to Snugmore House, the ruins of it are still there - although a new house has been built nearby.
You can see them in the photos and video embedded in this article from the Irish Examiner, when the new house was being sold in 2018.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/property/your-chance-to-live-the-dream-in-kinsale-844975.html
I have been researching Snugmore House recently - I'm originally from the Belgooly/Kinsale area. The house is well known in local folklore due to a major land dispute which occurred there from 1911-1919. I believe on one of your posts I saw the Bowen family mentioned - they feature indirectly in the Land dispute.
The lands were sold in the 1860s - the descriptive particulars are in the attachment below.
Also - there appear to be 2 wills belonging to Charles Newenham of Snugmore in the National Archives in Dublin - one dated 1848 and one dated 1851.
Would be very interested in your connection to the house.
Regards
Fergal
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Thanks so much Fergal! Very interesting information! Charles Newenham died in 1851. I am interested in the first will but can't open the jpg for some reason. My great great grandmother Mary Cole lived in Snugmore House for a while. She ended up in New Zealand after marrying. Funny that the people in the new home went there as well. I am happy to trade more details on my family and would love to hear about that dispute in the 1900s. Feel free to send me a PM and I will give you my email. I have Charles will from 1851 and some family information. My Aunt was in Kinsale in the 1990s but I hadn't discovered the information I have now so she didn't know what to look for while there. She said it was beautiful.
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Hi,
I have only just noticed this thread and am trying to catch up.
I have Charles Burton Newenham (about 1807 -1857) in my tree and can provide details of his ancestry, but as I think you have worked out, I don't think that he is the person that you are looking for. I don't have a Charles Newenham who married an Ann Bowler.
Charles Burton Newenham was a descendant of John Newenham mayor of Cork. His family is described in Burke's Irish Family Records here http://griffiths.askaboutireland.ie/gv4/nbl/lh_nbl_show5.php?mysession=&choice=&id=052166&pdfpage=916
Specifically, he was a child of Robert O'Callaghan Newenham and Susanna Hoare. Robert was son of Sir Edward Newenham MP (1732-1814).
The Newenham Deanes were descendants of Sir Thomas Deane (1792-1871) and Eliza Newenham (1800-1851) who married in 1827. Eliza was a daughter of Robert O'Callaghan Newenham and Susanna Hoare.
Many of the Newenhams and many of the Deanes were either architects or civil engineers or both. Lots of them have entries in the Dictionary of Irish Architects. (Just Google 'Newenham' or 'Deane' (or both) and 'Dictionary of Irish Architects.)
I can provide a tree for large parts of the Newenham/Deane and Newenham Deane family if that would help and would be happy to answer specific questions if I can.
The marriage that Hallmark found between Alexander Sharp Deane and Elizabeth Newenham seems to be a second link between the Newenham and Deane families that I wasn't aware of.
An Alexander Sharp Deane has a DIA entry here https://www.dia.ie/architects/view/1431/DEANE-ALEXANDERSHARP
You will see that he was the brother of Thomas Deane and that he died in 1847, when the ASD that Hallmark found got married. This ASD seems to have had a son ASD who married an Elizabeth Hargreave in 1851. The ASD who married Elizabeth Newenham in 1847 seems to have been a third one https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG68-PQN?treeref=94YF-ZPV
His father, James Roche Deane, was the brother of Thomas Deane and the first Alexander Sharpe Deane.
I still haven't traced where her father, Charles Newenham fits into the Newenham family tree.
Alan
Alan
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Thanks for all of this information Alan! I have the father of my Charles (c1805-1851) as William Henry Worth Newenham who died in 1824. Charles and his sister Elizabeth had a dispute with their inheritance-their brother Henry died and they were trying to get the money: https://csorp.nationalarchives.ie/search/index.php?browse=true&category=27&subcategory=188&offset=1160&browseresults=true (https://csorp.nationalarchives.ie/search/index.php?browse=true&category=27&subcategory=188&offset=1160&browseresults=true)
WHW Newenham was named in the will of his son Charles.
I have set up a family tree of just this line on Ancestry and will send you the link. I would be interesting in seeing your tree and where the might meet on your tree if that is ok. I will send a PM. Thanks so much!
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Detailed abstracts of wills of Newenham of Marybore' in Co. Cork and of Cork City, 1695 -- 1784.
Dublin: National Library of Ireland, Genealogical Office: Ms.139, pp.182-7
You can see them here http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000531511#page/186/mode/1up
I don't know the first testator (Elizabeth Newenham, widow). The second is John Newenham, mayor of cork. The third is his son Thomas. The next four wills are for my Quaker Newenham family (see this thread https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=837880.msg7033482#msg7033482), being John Newenham, Quaker and clothier, his son John, his son George and John's son Richard.
Alan
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I have the father of my Charles (c1805-1851) as William Henry Worth Newenham who died in 1824. Charles and his sister Elizabeth had a dispute with their inheritance-their brother Henry died and they were trying to get the money: https://csorp.nationalarchives.ie/search/index.php?browse=true&category=27&subcategory=188&offset=1160&browseresults=true (https://csorp.nationalarchives.ie/search/index.php?browse=true&category=27&subcategory=188&offset=1160&browseresults=true)
WHW Newenham was named in the will of his son Charles.
I have set up a family tree of just this line on Ancestry and will send you the link. I would be interesting in seeing your tree and where the might meet on your tree if that is ok. I will send a PM. Thanks so much!
I think that the father named in the petition and in Charles' Canterbury Court will (https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/5111/images/40611_309748-00056?pId=13277) was William Worth Newenham. The petition states that their father left the three younger children 2,500 charged on the estate of William Henry Worth Newenham, who is not described as their father.
Given that William Worth Newenham is described in the petition as 'of Coolmore', he and William Henry Worth Newenham were obviously the father and son with those names described in Burke.
William Worth Newenham of Coolmore b 5 Feb 1761, m 1783, Louisa 4th daughter of Henry Sandford and sister of 1st Baron Mount Sandford ... and d 1 Dec 1814 having had issue
1 William Henry Worth (of whom presently)
2 Thomas b 4 Oct 1788; d 1799
3 George b 1792; dsp 7 Dec 1815
1 Mary b 12 Aug, d Oct 1786
The eldest son
William Henry Worth Newenham of Coolmore, b 10 June 1785, m 25 July 1807 Catherine (d Feb 1858) only dau of Robert Sterne Tighe ... and dsp 4 Sept 1842 when he was s in Coolmore by his cousin
The Rev Thomas Newenham rector of Kilworth b 14 Oct 1784 and dunm April 1849 when he was s by his nephew
The Rev Edward Henry Newenham MA of Coolmore JP ...
The facts presented in the petition (dated 22 July 1824) suggest that William Worth Newenham left his estate to his eldest son William Henry Worth Newenham subject to a legacy of £2,500 charged against the estate and left in trust for his three minor children. By 1824 one of them, Henry, had died and the other two, having attained majority, applied for his share which had been forfeit to the Crown. (William Worth Newenham may have made other arrangements for his son George who was also alive when his father died, but had already reached majority.)
This implies that Burke omitted the three minor children, Charles, Henry and Elizabeth, which is conceivable, but it doesn't explain how Charles and Elizabeth were overlooked in favour of a cousin when their brother William Henry Worth Newenham died in 1842, and then again when the cousin died in 1849, given that Charles lived until 1851.
I really can't explain this.
Alan
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Hi Alan,
It is certainly odd! Sadly, I do not have the birth or baptism of Charles, Elizabeth or Henry. You can see in the tree that Elizabeth married Richard Cross Moore. They had a daughter Isabella. Charles married Ann Bowler and they had a son William Henry Newenham. These two first cousins married. William Henry drops out of sight after his son is born (1858 at Snugmore House). By 1868 Isabella is back in Dublin and seems to be living as a widow (Mrs Newenham in a directory). On a sad note, Isabella lives with her sister-in-law and they die just two days apart of influenza.
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I forgot to say thanks for the link to the Quaker Newenham family. I know that some of the Bowler family were also Quaker. I will read it tomorrow with fresh eyes but have already seen some familiar names (Massey, John Webb). Hallmark, Fergal and you have certainly found some interesting things that might give me more clues!
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Here is the wedding announcement of Charles Newenham and Sarah Daunt, 19 Sep 1824-one mistake North instead of Worth. This was in the Westmeath Journal on 24 Sep 1824.
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In case you haven't seen it already the landed estates database is always worth a look for properties like Coolmore. Here is the entry for the Newenhams
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/family-show.jsp?id=2852
It is interesting that some of the transactions related to the estate were with families whose members married Newenhams like Hodder and your Daunt.
Maryborough, on the same page, was built by Richard the eldest son of my Quaker John Newenham.
Alan
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Thanks very much Alan. Very interesting about the connection to your John Newenham and Maryborough. It looks enormous and beautiful. I have been going through various BMDs and just can't find any birth or baptismal evidence of Charles, Henry or Elizabeth. On the Quaker front I believe Edward and Ann Riggs were part of the church correct. There is a connection to the Bowler family in that one of the decedents married Walter Bowler, a sovereign of Kinsale.
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Here is a link to the death certificate of Isabella Moore Newenham https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1898/05841/4654689.pdf
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I found this but realized this is the line you meant (where Charles, Henry and Elizabeth weren't named). Could they be the children of his wife Catherine and he adopted them? She had no issue with him but maybe the three were hers?
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Hi,
The entry in the death record certainly seems to be her. I can't make out the word after 'widow'. I would be very interested to know what others think is says.
I don't think that your explanation for the children missing from Burke's Irish Family Records can be right. The petition that you found clearly stated that the three children were minors when their father died, which was in 1814. They must therefore all have been born after 1793, ie after all the children listed in Burke. Their parents married in 1783.
The author of the Burke genealogy plainly didn't know when Louisa nee Sandford died, so it is possible that she died before her husband, that he married again and that the children were from a second marriage. However, it is not clear why this should have affected their inheritance of the Coolmore estate which came from their father's rather than their mother's family.
Alan
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Sorry, the yellow highlight was because of my search but I was thinking the next generation (married Catherine Tighe). That being said, Catherine was born in 1786 so was too young to be married before and have three children.There is a William Newenham married to Barbara Green in 1792. By now I am grasping at straws.
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It looks like W.W. Newenham's wife Louisa died in or around 17 Mar 1791, days after the birth of her last son George. The record I found states "...died last night at Coolmore the Lady of William Worth Newenham, Esq." CEP, 17 Mar 1791. So Charles, Henry and Elizabeth must have been the product of a second marriage. The marriage of a W.W. Newenham to Barbara Lynam/Green isn't the correct W.W. (he is the son of relative and based in Dublin).
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That's a really good find. It would be great to discover details of a second marriage or of his second wife/widow's death. Best of all would be his will. Unfortunately I haven't yet found any of them.
Alan
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Edward and Anne Riggs were Baptists. Edward had the first Baptist church in Cork built in 1651 or 1652, Anne opened the Baptist cemetery in 1707.
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Thanks John. That is very interesting information! I will have to check that out.