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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: PIGLET392006 on Sunday 20 October 19 07:48 BST (UK)

Title: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Sunday 20 October 19 07:48 BST (UK)
Hi everyone, I'm new to rootschat.com so please bear with me! My great-grandfather was Harry Rundle, born in Luton, Bedfordshire, UK in/around 1874. He was in the South Staffordshire Regiment in the British Army. He married Beatrice Mallett on 4th November 1893 (parish church of St David's?) in Cornwall, UK. Beatrice Mallett was born in/around 1876 in Penryn, Cornwall, UK & her occupation was that of a tailoress. Harry & Beatrice's registered address at the time of their marriage was Helston Road, Penryn, Cornwall, UK. They had 2 children, both girls, & both were born in Falmouth, Cornwall, UK. Jane Ann Rundle was born on 15th February 1902, & Gwendoline Rundle was born on 21st July 1904. It's interesting to note that their first child wasn't born until 9 years after their marriage, quite possibly due to Harry's service in the Army. I have no other details at this time regarding Harry & Beatrice's relationship, their children, descendants of their children, etc.

However, my research into my great-grandfather has shown that there was another marriage, between Harry Rundle & Alice Maud Butler, at a registry office in Weymouth, Dorset, UK, on 22nd November 1899. There were 5 children, 3 boys & 2 girls. Their details are as follows: Henry Charles Rundle born 6th January(?) 1902, Portland, Cornwall, UK; Albert Edward Rundle born 22nd September 1903, Kings Norton, Birmingham, UK; Edith Ellen Marie Rundle born 29th October 1906, Kings Norton, Birmingham, UK; Leslie Clarence King Rundle born 25th March 1908; Balsall Heath, Birmingham, UK; Nellie Louisa Rundle born 20th November 1910, Balsall Heath, Birmingham, UK.

As a result of 2 marriages, although 6 years apart, there were 2 children both born in 1902!!

Any other information regarding Harry & Beatrice/Harry & Alice would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks!
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 20 October 19 08:04 BST (UK)
Welcome to rootschat


However, my research into my great-grandfather has shown that there was another marriage, between Harry Rundle & Alice Maud Butler, at a registry office in Weymouth, Dorset, UK, on 22nd November 1899. There were 5 children, 3 boys & 2 girls. Their details are as follows: Henry Charles Rundle born 6th January(?) 1902, Portland, Cornwall, UK; Albert Edward Rundle born 22nd September 1903, Kings Norton, Birmingham, UK; Edith Ellen Marie Rundle born 29th October 1906, Kings Norton, Birmingham, UK; Leslie Clarence King Rundle born 25th March 1908; Balsall Heath, Birmingham, UK; Nellie Louisa Rundle born 20th November 1910, Balsall Heath, Birmingham, UK.


Do you have the birth certificates for these children.

OK I have found some of them surname Rumble, not Rundle  :) . Family are listed as Rumble on the next census

Births Jun qtr 1908 
Rumble    Leslie Clarence K       
King's N.    6c   431
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Sunday 20 October 19 08:39 BST (UK)
Hi Rosie99, cute picture by the way.... :) Thanks for the info, anything further would be much appreciated!
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: KGarrad on Sunday 20 October 19 09:04 BST (UK)
Henry Charles Rumble was born in Dorset, not Cornwall ;D

From FreeBMD:

Birth, March qtr 1902
Weymouth Registration District     vol 5a, page 296
Rumble, Henry Charles

Portland, with it's Naval Base, comes under the auspices of Weymouth Registration District.
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: emeltom on Sunday 20 October 19 09:19 BST (UK)
In 1911 Harry is with Alice in Birmingham and using the name Rumble. They have 5 children. There  was another one who died. Beatrice Rundle is in Falmouth with her 6 children, all born Falmouth. She states that she is married but has no husband with her. The six children are
William Frederick 1894
Beatrice Mary 1895
Lily Edith 1897
Ida Maud 1899
Jane Ann 1902
Gwendoline 1904
All registered with mmn Mallett

Emeltom
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: [Ray] on Sunday 20 October 19 09:35 BST (UK)



 . . . . .and some of the female refs to help prove Emeltom's finding     ???

   RUNDLE, BEATRICE  MARY       ( mmn Mallett )     
 GRO Reference: 1895  S Quarter in FALMOUTH  Volume 05C  Page 154
      RUNDLE, LILY  EDITH       ( mmn Mallett )     
 GRO Reference: 1897  D Quarter in FALMOUTH  Volume 05C  Page 150 
 
    RUNDLE, IDA  MAUD       ( mmn Mallett )     
 GRO Reference: 1899  D Quarter in FALMOUTH  Volume 05C  Page 151
    RUNDLE, JANE  ANN       ( mmn Mallett )     
 GRO Reference: 1902  M Quarter in FALMOUTH  Volume 05C  Page 142
    RUNDLE, GWENDOLINE         ( mmn Mallett )     
 GRO Reference: 1904  S Quarter in FALMOUTH  Volume 05C  Page 144
   
 
 
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: KGarrad on Sunday 20 October 19 09:39 BST (UK)
Marriage at St Gluvias, 4th November 1893
Henry Rundle, 20, Blacksmith, Bachelor, father Henry (a sailor)
Beatrice Mallett, 19, Spinster, father John (a Labourer)

Both bride and groom were residing at Penryn.
These days St Gluvias is a suburb of Penryn.
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: emeltom on Sunday 20 October 19 09:49 BST (UK)
In the 1901 Census the family are in Penryn
Harry Rundle 29 Blacksmith Penryn
Beatrice Rundle 25 wife Penryn
William Rundle 7 son Penryn
Mary 5 dau Penryn
Lily Rundle 3 dau Penryn
Ida Rundle 1 dau Penryn
RG13/2229/F43/p7

As your Harry Rundle was born in Luton I think there are two different Harry Rundles here.

Emeltom
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Sunday 20 October 19 09:59 BST (UK)
Hi everyone, I'm adding some more details regarding my great-grandfather, Harry Rundle, so if anyone can help with anything else, that would be great!

Harry Rundle took up with a Minnie Eva Inchley, after her husband, Harry Hales, also a British soldier, died around 1914. At this time, I've no information as to what happened to his relationships with his 2 previous wives, Beatrice Mallett or Alice Butler, i.e., did either of these women die young, did they get divorced, etc. I've no information on whether there was an actual marriage between Harry Rundle & Minnie. Minnie's first marriage/relationship to Harry Hales in 1904 in Birmingham, UK, produced 7 children, whose names are Ethel, Elsie, Frederick, Harry, Joseph, Minnie and Stanley. Ethel was born in 1913 in Birmingham, UK & died in Nova Scotia, Canada, in 2003, but I don't have birth/marriage/death details for her siblings, other than that the majority of her siblings died before she did, except for her sister Minnie. When Harry Rundle met Minnie Inchley, I believe they had 2 or 3 children together, one of which, the youngest, was my grandfather, Joseph John Rundle. He was born on 17th June 1921 in Birmingham, UK, & died in Australia in 1984. He served in the Australian Army, service number WX19919. I believe my grandfather's half-sister Ethel managed to keep in contact with his children in Australia via letter.

When Minnie Eva Inchley died in 1923, Harry Rundle placed all the children in an orphanage in Birmingham, UK. He then emigrated in 1923 to Canada aboard the ship 'SS Regina' from Liverpool to Quebec. It's interesting to note that on the passenger lists for this trip, Harry Rundle's last known address was listed in Penryn, Cornwall, where he'd previously been living many years before with his first wife, Beatrice Mallett. After that, I can't find any information on Harry Rundle, i.e., did he re-marry in Canada, what he did for the rest of his life, did he ever return to the UK, when/where he died, etc.

In 1934, my grandfather, Joseph John Rundle, was sent from England (Birmingham) to Australia (Fairbridge Farm Pinjarra, Western Australia) on the ship 'Jervis Bay' as part of the child migration scheme. He was only 12 years old.

Many thanks!!  :)
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: emeltom on Sunday 20 October 19 10:13 BST (UK)
The Harry Rundle, Blacksmith who married Beatrice Mallett and the Harry Rundle who married Alice Butler are definitely two different people. Their Army Records are on FindMyPast. Harry the Blacksmith, who gives Beatrice as his wife and next of kin was born Penryn and served in the Labour Company whilst the Harry born Luton gives his father Joseph in Birmingham as next of kin and he served in the Royal Artilley.

Beatrice Rundle died in Penryn in 1956. In 1939 she is a widow
Harry Rundle is in Birmingham in 1939 and is also widowed.

Emeltom
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 20 October 19 10:34 BST (UK)
Working back from your grandfather Joseph John Rundle born on 17th June 1921 in Birmingham.
Births Sep 1921   
Rundle    Joseph J    mmn Inchley   
King's N.    6d   215

Births Sep 1921   
Hales    Joseph J    mmn Inchley   
King's N.    6d   215I

I can only see this child with surname Rundle mmn Inchley
...

There are 3 other Hales births with mmn Inchley after 1911
Minnie 1912, Ethel 1914 and Stanley M.R 1917


Harry Rundle took up with a Minnie Eva Inchley, after her husband, Harry Hales, also a British soldier, died around 1914. At this time, I've no information as to what happened to his relationships with his 2 previous wives, Beatrice Mallett or Alice Butler, i.e., did either of these women die young, did they get divorced, etc. I've no information on whether there was an actual marriage between Harry Rundle & Minnie. Minnie's first marriage/relationship to Harry Hales in 1904 in Birmingham, UK, produced 7 children, whose names are Ethel, Elsie, Frederick, Harry, Joseph, Minnie and Stanley. Ethel was born in 1913 in Birmingham, UK & died in Nova Scotia, Canada, in 2003, but I don't have birth/marriage/death details for her siblings, other than that the majority of her siblings died before she did, except for her sister Minnie. When Harry Rundle met Minnie Inchley, I believe they had 2 or 3 children together, one of which, the youngest, was my grandfather, Joseph John Rundle. He was born on 17th June 1921 in Birmingham, UK, & died in Australia in 1984. He served in the Australian Army, service number WX19919. I believe my grandfather's half-sister Ethel managed to keep in contact with his children in Australia via letter.

When Minnie Eva Inchley died in 1923, Harry Rundle placed all the children in an orphanage in Birmingham, UK. He then emigrated in 1923 to Canada aboard the ship 'SS Regina' from Liverpool to Quebec. It's interesting to note that on the passenger lists for this trip, Harry Rundle's last known address was listed in Penryn, Cornwall, where he'd previously been living many years before with his first wife, Beatrice Mallett. After that, I can't find any information on Harry Rundle, i.e., did he re-marry in Canada, what he did for the rest of his life, did he ever return to the UK, when/where he died, etc.

In 1934, my grandfather, Joseph John Rundle, was sent from England (Birmingham) to Australia (Fairbridge Farm Pinjarra, Western Australia) on the ship 'Jervis Bay' as part of the child migration scheme. He was only 12 years old.

Many thanks!!  :)

Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 20 October 19 10:38 BST (UK)
In case you haven't seen them, FindMyPast has 3 lots of army service records for this soldier
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 20 October 19 10:49 BST (UK)
Deleted
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 20 October 19 11:30 BST (UK)
Just to confirm, the Harry Rundle who went to Canada in 1923 was born in Penryn circa 1874.

Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 20 October 19 11:56 BST (UK)
There is also this for a Harry Rundle occ Blacksmith (Ancestry have transcribed it as Randle)
Age   39
Sailed from South Africa
Arrival Date 17 Mar 1915
Port of Arrival Plymouth
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: emeltom on Sunday 20 October 19 12:01 BST (UK)
That fits with the Harry Rundle from Penryn enlisting 27 July 1915, and possibly explains why he is not on the 1911 Census

Emeltom
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Sunday 20 October 19 12:02 BST (UK)
Thank you to all who have replied.

In case you haven't seen them, FindMyPast has 3 lots of army service records for this soldier

And....this is why I'm finding it very confusing! ShaunJ, any other information would be most helpful. Is it possible that Harry Rundle really was married twice, & just didn't want to be found out?? Was it possible for him to tell alot of lies about his relationships & his whereabouts to all the women in his life??

In 1911 Harry is with Alice in Birmingham and using the name Rumble. They have 5 children. There  was another one who died. Beatrice Rundle is in Falmouth with her 6 children, all born Falmouth. She states that she is married but has no husband with her. The six children are
William Frederick 1894
Beatrice Mary 1895
Lily Edith 1897
Ida Maud 1899
Jane Ann 1902
Gwendoline 1904
All registered with mmn Mallett

Emeltom


I had no information on Beatrice Mallett's 4 older children at all, only the 2 youngest ones. I've never heard or seen of the name "Rumble" before, it certainly hasn't been discussed in family circles as far as I'm aware. I've no idea what the legalities of registering children with the mother's maiden name were back in the early 1900's, but was it possible for Beatrice Mallett to change the registration of her children's names if she didn't know where her husband was? Or if she'd divorced Harry Rundle because of his affair with Alice Butler, & therefore wanted her children's names changed back to her maiden name?

The other reason I am finding this confusing, is that I've come across several letters written by Alice Rundle (nee Butler) to Harry Rundle's employer, the British Army, asking them do they know where he is. Alice also states in one of her letters that she's aware of another woman in Harry's life, & that there are children from this relationship as well. Alice states her opinion on Harry quite assertively in these letters, almost distancing herself from knowing him altogether, as she doesn't agree with his behaviour. This "other woman" could be Minnie Eva Inchley.

Thanks for all your assistance, much appreciated  :)
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 20 October 19 12:04 BST (UK)
The Absent voter' list (1918) has Harry Rundle at 3/12 Bacchus Rd. B'ham.
Sgt. in a Siege Battery RFA.
Alice Maud is there in 1920 & Leslie in 1931.
1922-27 Harry is there as a Pte. 2/S.Wales Borderers.
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 20 October 19 12:21 BST (UK)
Beatrice Mallett is not married to your Harry.  Her husband Henry /Harry is a blacksmith born in Cornwall and appears to have employment abroad.

ADDED Harry & Beatrice appear on the 1922 electoral register for Helston Road, Penryn

Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 20 October 19 12:27 BST (UK)
Quote
Is it possible that Harry Rundle really was married twice

Per WW1 service records:

Private Harry Rundle, Labour Corps who was born Penryn and married to Beatrice was 5'2 1/2" tall
Sergeant Harry Rundle RGA who was born Luton and married to Alice was 5'7" tall.
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: emeltom on Sunday 20 October 19 12:30 BST (UK)
Do you have his marriage certificate for the marriage to Alice? It may answer a few questions such as the name of his father, for example.

Emeltom
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: tazzie on Sunday 20 October 19 12:54 BST (UK)
Baptism....

Harry Rumble born 7 October 1876 baptised 28 October 1880 Christ church Luton Bedfordshire.
Father Joseph mother Jane.

1891 family are in Kings Norton Worcestershire.RG 12  2335/47

Joseph Rumble hd 48 hatter Bedfordshire
Jane Rumble.   Wi  50Buckinghamshire
Nellie dau 21 milliner Bedfordshire
Alfred son 18 railway fireman Luton
Harry son 14 pianoforte finisher Bedfordshire.

Tazzie
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 20 October 19 12:55 BST (UK)

I had no information on Beatrice Mallett's 4 older children at all, only the 2 youngest ones. I've never heard or seen of the name "Rumble" before, it certainly hasn't been discussed in family circles as far as I'm aware. I've no idea what the legalities of registering children with the mother's maiden name were back in the early 1900's, but was it possible for Beatrice Mallett to change the registration of her children's names if she didn't know where her husband was? Or if she'd divorced Harry Rundle because of his affair with Alice Butler, & therefore wanted her children's names changed back to her maiden name?

Just to clarify
The GRO index has the births registered in the surname of Rundle - it also indicates that the mothers maiden surname was Mallett

eg
RUNDLE, WILLIAM  FREDERICK     - MALLETT 
GRO Reference: 1894  M Quarter in FALMOUTH  Volume 05C  Page 157
RUNDLE, BEATRICE  MARY     - MALLETT 
GRO Reference: 1895  Sept Quarter in FALMOUTH  Volume 05C  Page 154


But as I mentioned earlier they are not your family  :)
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: tazzie on Sunday 20 October 19 13:15 BST (UK)
The passage of the name Rumble to Rundle is easy enough. Both sound alike spellings change depending on how educated people were at the time.
The Harry in Cornwall is as listed previously is not yours. In 1891 Harry is in Kings Norton as in 1911.
If Alice is asking for details of Harry it could be he never went home after the war. I have proof of this with another local family. Who knows the trauma and horrors. It changed people.


Tazzie
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 20 October 19 13:27 BST (UK)
Harry was at home until at least 1927 according to the Electoral Rolls.
Could be son Henry.
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 20 October 19 16:37 BST (UK)
2 possibly useful bits from his record:
no father's name but I notice a Mallett witness.
It also shows he was a time served Artilleryman pre 1914.
His address on this is the same as the Electoral Roll.
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: emeltom on Sunday 20 October 19 16:42 BST (UK)
Somewhere in amongst all the Army paperwork he does name his father Joseph as his next of kin, with an address in Birmingham. I think it is when he first enlisted in 1893 into the Staffordshire Regiment.

Emeltom.
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: tazzie on Sunday 20 October 19 17:15 BST (UK)
The birth of Henry Rumble......who it seem is know later as Harry Rundle is....

  Henry Rumble Dec quarter 1876 Luton. Mmn Markham

There is a death record in Birmingham in Dec quarter 1941 of....

  Henry Rumble age 65.......could this be Harry?

Tazzie
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 20 October 19 17:55 BST (UK)
A quick recap seems to be: born 1876 to Joseph & Jane Rundle/Rumble.
Married Nov. 1899 Weymouth R.O.
Moved to B'ham by 1902.
Had children up to 1910.
Career:
1) Staffs. Regt. (joined at 16 according to letter).
2) R.A. (time served).
3) RGA(SR) from 1914-17 & re-enlisted 1917 (probably under the new law (1916) re. Territorial & Reservists).
Alice hasn't heard from him pretty much from the time he went overseas in 1917.
She did however know he had been in the UK & had visited B'ham but not to see her & their children
but to see another woman who he had children with also.
Family continued to live at 3/12 or 3/14 Bacchus Rd. at least until 1931.
Harry doesn't appear to be with them after 1920.
Harry living in Fulham Rd. Sparkhill in 1927.
Living in Aubrey Rd. Sparkbrook 1939.
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 20 October 19 20:02 BST (UK)
Now I'm going to add to the confusion.
Harry Hales & Harry Rundle are one in the same.
1918 AV list has at Nora Ave. Fulham rd. Harry Hales no.276411 395 Siege Bty. RGA.
1918 AV list has at Parkview cottages Bacchus rd. Harry Rundle no.276411 395 Siege Bty. RGA.
If he ever went to Canada he was back by 1927.
If this was my family I would want both his marriage certs.
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: Jool on Sunday 20 October 19 22:12 BST (UK)
I've been following this interesting thread, you've certainly thrown a cat amongst the pigeons there Jim  ;D

Electoral Register Nora Avenue:

In 1921 they are Harry and Minnie Hales
In 1922 and 1923 they are Harry and Minnie Rundle
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: Dundee on Monday 21 October 19 02:12 BST (UK)
Harry RUMBLE/RUNDLE's children with Alice named in his 1914 military record:

RUMBLE, HENRY  CHARLES      BUTLER     
GRO Reference: 1902  M Quarter in WEYMOUTH  Volume 05A  Page 296

RUMBLES, ALBERT  EDWARD      BUTLER     
GRO Reference: 1903  D Quarter in KING'S NORTON  Volume 06C  Page 394

RUMBLE, EDITH  ELLEN MARIE     LE BOUTILIER     
GRO Reference: 1906  D Quarter in KING'S NORTON  Volume 06C  Page 391

RUMBLE, LESLIE  CLARENCE KING     BUTLER     
GRO Reference: 1908  J Quarter in KING'S NORTON  Volume 06C  Page 431

RUMBLE, NELLIE  LOUISA      BUTLER     
GRO Reference: 1910  D Quarter in KING'S NORTON  Volume 06C  Page 385

They married in 1899 in Weymouth.

In 1901 they are in Portland, Harry is Henry, a Gunner in the RGA, and Alice is 'Annie'.

Class: RG13; Piece: 1997; Folio: 94; Page: 22

In 1911 they are in Sparkbrook and Harry is a packer for a jeweller.

Class: RG14; Piece: 17899; Schedule Number: 220

In 1901, Harry HALES is a Sergeant in the 6th Worcestershire Regiment and is boarding with the INCHLEY family in Balsall Heath.

Class: RG13; Piece: 2810; Folio: 216; Page: 16

Debra  :)
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Monday 21 October 19 08:28 BST (UK)
Thank you all so much for your help. It's been amazing to find out some of these things  :)

Baptism....

Harry Rumble born 7 October 1876 baptised 28 October 1880 Christ church Luton Bedfordshire.
Father Joseph mother Jane.

1891 family are in Kings Norton Worcestershire.RG 12  2335/47

Joseph Rumble hd 48 hatter Bedfordshire
Jane Rumble.   Wi  50Buckinghamshire
Nellie dau 21 milliner Bedfordshire
Alfred son 18 railway fireman Luton
Harry son 14 pianoforte finisher Bedfordshire.

Tazzie

Thanks tazzie for this information. I knew Harry's father's name was Joseph but didn't know what his mother's name was (Jane Markham), nor that of his older siblings.

2 possibly useful bits from his record:
no father's name but I notice a Mallett witness.
It also shows he was a time served Artilleryman pre 1914.
His address on this is the same as the Electoral Roll.

A "Mallett witness" definitely throws a spanner in the works, or it could be pure coincidence perhaps?

In 1901, Harry HALES is a Sergeant in the 6th Worcestershire Regiment and is boarding with the INCHLEY family in Balsall Heath.

Class: RG13; Piece: 2810; Folio: 216; Page: 16

Debra  :)

Debra, I did come across this information somewhere, regarding Harry Hales boarding with the Inchleys, & I think he was quite a bit older than Minnie when they married in 1904 at St Agatha's Church in Sparkbrook, Birmingham, UK. As stated earlier in this thread, they produced 7 children. Could anyone help with finding out if Harry Hales died during World War I, i.e., killed in action?

With regards to the letters Alice Butler writes to the British Army, approximately from the start of World War I -  mid 1920's, searching for her husband, I believe this is around the time Harry Rundle met Minnie Hales (nee Inchley), & fathered more children, one of which is my grandfather, Joseph John Rundle. Minnie died in 1923, 2 years after my grandfather was born. Could anyone help with finding out the names and/or dates of birth of the other children of Harry Rundle & Minnie Hales' relationship?

The Absent voter' list (1918) has Harry Rundle at 3/12 Bacchus Rd. B'ham.
Sgt. in a Siege Battery RFA.
Alice Maud is there in 1920 & Leslie in 1931.
1922-27 Harry is there as a Pte. 2/S.Wales Borderers.

&

Family continued to live at 3/12 or 3/14 Bacchus Rd. at least until 1931.
Harry doesn't appear to be with them after 1920.
Harry living in Fulham Rd. Sparkhill in 1927.
Living in Aubrey Rd. Sparkbrook 1939.

These details are very interesting.

Many thanks!!  :)
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: emeltom on Monday 21 October 19 09:29 BST (UK)
GRO has the following Hales children with mmn Inchley

Frederick Mar 1906 Solihull 6D 650
Elsie Maud Jun 1909 Kings Norton 6c 406
Minnie Edith Sep 1912 Kings Norton 6c 673
Ethel Mary Mar 1914 Aston 6D 806
Stanley Maurice Rundle Mar 1917 Aston 6D 681

I can't find the family in 1911

Emeltom
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: jim1 on Monday 21 October 19 11:49 BST (UK)
There appears to be just the 2 children Stanley 1917 & Joseph 1921.
There's no death for Harry Hales appearing in soldiers effects or anywhere else that I can see.
As Stanley was born Jan. 1917 indicates they were together from early 1916.
Alice is constantly asking for his whereabouts believing in 1915 that he was in the Dardanelles when in fact he didn't go overseas until 1917.
It looks like he was used as a training instructor before being posted to the RGA reinforcement Coy. prior to embarkation.
Alice believed as a Special Reservist he had only to serve 1 year (as per his attestation papers) because he had been a time served soldier prior to that & she mentioned the fact he lied about his age because an SR could only serve up to 40 (in fact it was 42).
So he's using his time in the RGA to fly under the radar while he's living with Minnie.
Alice lived in north B'ham & Minnie in south B'ham so he was careful to keep them as far apart as possible but obviously she found out even though he was now assuming the role & name of Harry Hales.
As he appears on all the Electoral Rolls from 1918 up to 1927 indicates he never went to Canada.
What tangled webs we weave.
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Monday 21 October 19 18:00 BST (UK)
Hi emeltom & jim1, thank you so much for that extra information. It's slowly being pieced together!

1922-27 Harry is there as a Pte. 2/S.Wales Borderers.

Could this be Harry & Alice's eldest son Henry Charles instead? He was born in 1902, so this could be him.

GRO has the following Hales children with mmn Inchley

Frederick Mar 1906 Solihull 6D 650
Elsie Maud Jun 1909 Kings Norton 6c 406
Minnie Edith Sep 1912 Kings Norton 6c 673
Ethel Mary Mar 1914 Aston 6D 806
Stanley Maurice Rundle Mar 1917 Aston 6D 681

I can't find the family in 1911

Emeltom

It's interesting to note that Stanley's surname above says Rundle. Joseph & Harry are missing off this list (Rundle or Hales?). Joseph John Rundle born 1921? Harry Rundle, the father/stepfather?

There's no death for Harry Hales appearing in soldiers effects or anywhere else that I can see.

So he's using his time in the RGA to fly under the radar while he's living with Minnie.
Alice lived in north B'ham & Minnie in south B'ham so he was careful to keep them as far apart as possible but obviously she found out even though he was now assuming the role & name of Harry Hales.
As he appears on all the Electoral Rolls from 1918 up to 1927 indicates he never went to Canada.
What tangled webs we weave.

I'm really curious as to what happened to Harry Hales, so have to keep researching that one!

I would love to know what happened to Alice Butler as well, particularly after 1920. As mentioned before, Minnie died in 1923.

Family continued to live at 3/12 or 3/14 Bacchus Rd. at least until 1931.
Harry doesn't appear to be with them after 1920.
Harry living in Fulham Rd. Sparkhill in 1927.
Living in Aubrey Rd. Sparkbrook 1939.

I'm curious to know if Harry is living on his own in Fulham Rd, Sparkhill in 1927, & the same for the Aubrey Rd, Sparkbrook address in 1939? Or could it be that he's living at another Rundle family member's address, i.e., older sibling or his father, in either 1927 & 1939?

Many thanks!  :)
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: jim1 on Monday 21 October 19 18:22 BST (UK)
I'll try & answer in order.
Yes I believe Harry of the SWB is their son Henry.
In 1927 Harry is back to his Rundle name & living at the same address as he lived at with Minnie, same in 1925.
As for him living on his own all I can say is that he's the only one listed on the roll but it only included men over 21 & 30 for women.
I believe one daughter Elsie from Minnie's marriage married in 1936.
Harry Hales seems even more elusive than Harry Rundle. I can't find anything after 1901.
Alice is at her home address in Bacchus Rd. up to 1927 & then seems to disappear.
As for Stanley he has to be the child of Harry Rundle. It was quite common to put the father's surname as a middle name.
Son Leslie is using Bacchus Rd. as his abode while in the Army up to 1935.
Breaking news:
While typing this I had a look at Leslie in 1935 & living in the same house is:
Thomas Henry White & Alice Maud White.
Back soon.
In 1939 Thomas Henry White is living there minus Alice & Leslie.
Leslie died in 1970 B'ham but can be found 1950-55 living with wife Emily in Quinton.
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: emeltom on Monday 21 October 19 18:38 BST (UK)
The reason Joseph born 1921 is missing from my list is because of the 100 year rule. At present the GRO site only lists Births upto 1918.

Emeltom
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: jim1 on Monday 21 October 19 18:52 BST (UK)
Quote
The reason Joseph born 1921 is missing from my list is because of the 100 year rule. At present the GRO site only lists Births upto 1918.
Nothing to do with the 100 year rule.
No need to go any further as MMN's are listed after 1911 on births.
Found on FreeBMD.
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: emeltom on Monday 21 October 19 18:59 BST (UK)
OK he's missing from my list because I only looked at the GRO site!

Emeltom
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 22 October 19 11:16 BST (UK)
Forgot to mention in 1939 Harry is living with John & Florence Jones aged 40 & 34 + 2 redacted who are probably their children.
John Jones is a packer (motor trade) same as Harry so looks like he's just a lodger.
Can't find him in 1930 or 35 but he's not at Fulham rd.
There's a death for an Alice M White in 1936 aged 57 which looks right.
There's also a death in 1941 for a Henry Rundle aged 65 which also looks right.
Although he was never called Henry it may be down to the person registering the death
assuming this was his name.
Changing the subject for a minute the 1899 marriage witness as I mentioned was an F.A. Mallett.
I believe this is Alice's sister.
1881 Jersey:
Alfred John Le Boutillier 34
Louisa Ellen Le Boutillier 29
Alfred Charles Le Boutillier 11
Louisa Jane Le Boutillier 10
Florence Alice Le Boutillier 8
Edward Francis Le Boutillier 6
Sydney Touzall Le Boutillier 3
Alice Maud Le Boutillier 2
In 1901 Florence is with her husband in Weymouth & her pob is Jersey.
That clears that up.
I don't know about you but I'm getting the impression something happened to Harry between 1927-30 which forced him to put the children into the care system or that they were taken from him at that time.
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 22 October 19 13:25 BST (UK)
GRO has the following Hales children with mmn Inchley

Frederick Mar 1906 Solihull 6D 650
Elsie Maud Jun 1909 Kings Norton 6c 406
Minnie Edith Sep 1912 Kings Norton 6c 673
Ethel Mary Mar 1914 Aston 6D 806
Stanley Maurice Rundle Mar 1917 Aston 6D 681

I can't find the family in 1911

Emeltom

Nor can I, and I also can't find Minnie's parents who I believe were still living.  I would expect them all to be somewhere in the Kings Norton district.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: emeltom on Tuesday 22 October 19 13:37 BST (UK)
No, I couldn't see them either, not even under I* or H*

Emeltom
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 22 October 19 16:12 BST (UK)
I can see a couple of marriages early-mid 1900's but nothing after that.
Nothing obvious on the  ER's either.
I can see a death for a George Inchley B'ham in 1917 age 62 which might be him.
Also a Mary A Inchley KN in 1914 aged 54.
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: emeltom on Tuesday 22 October 19 16:25 BST (UK)
That doesn't explain why they are not appearing in 1911.

Emeltom
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 22 October 19 16:50 BST (UK)
It does at least show some are still around.
Arthur appears in 1911 B'ham married & up to 1939.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Friday 25 October 19 13:42 BST (UK)
Hi everyone, thanks so much for all your help! I've had a busy few days with other things, but now I can finally go through what you've found out for me, & incorporate it into what I've found out myself :)

I don't know about you but I'm getting the impression something happened to Harry between 1927-30 which forced him to put the children into the care system or that they were taken from him at that time.

After Minnie died in 1923, I believe Harry Rundle put all the children he had with her (Stanley & Joseph) & all the children Minnie had with Harry Hales (who Harry Rundle was basically a stepfather to) into Middlemore Children's Home in Birmingham. I don't believe the children went into the home later than 1923. He wouldn't have had many other options back in those days, as he wouldn't have been able to work & take care of the children at the same time, & it would've been especially rare for a male to be doing that in the early 1900's! The 2 oldest children, Frederick & Elsie, were aged 17 & 14 respectively when their mother died, so I'm wondering if they weren't placed in the children's home & just found work. Perhaps Frederick joined the Army, like his father, & maybe Elsie did domestic service work. The remaining children were aged 11, 9, 6 & 2 respectively, so they definitely would've been placed in the home.

At the time of their mother's death, Minnie Hales was aged 11 & Ethel Hales was aged 9. According to the website www.britishhomechildrenregistry.com, Minnie emigrated to the Fairview Home, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada in 1926 & Ethel emigrated to the same home in 1927. The records show that Ethel was placed with a Mr James D Nichol, in Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada some time in 1927, for domestic service work. No similar record seems to exist for Minnie Hales. Ethel Mary Hales eventually married Gilbert Leander Spinney in 1931 in Nova Scotia, & they had 10 children (5 boys & 5 girls). She died in 2003.

Also when their mother died, Stanley Maurice Rundle was aged 6 & Joseph John Rundle was aged 2. I'm having trouble finding details on Stanley, perhaps he joined the British Army like his father. Joseph John Rundle, however, was sent to Australia at age 12 in 1934 as part of the child migration scheme. Joseph John Rundle eventually joined the Australian Army, married Ellen Swinbourne in Sydney, Australia & had 7 children, the 2 youngest being twins (boy & girl). He died in 1984.

Forgot to mention in 1939 Harry is living with John & Florence Jones aged 40 & 34 + 2 redacted who are probably their children.
John Jones is a packer (motor trade) same as Harry so looks like he's just a lodger.
Changing the subject for a minute the 1899 marriage witness as I mentioned was an F.A. Mallett.
I believe this is Alice's sister.
1881 Jersey:
Florence Alice Le Boutillier 8
Alice Maud Le Boutillier 2

Le Boutillier when translated from French to English, becomes "Butler", hence Alice Maud Butler. In the 1881 Census, Alice & her family were living in Jersey, Nova Scotia, Canada. So Alice was born in Canada, & her family must've emigrated to England some time between 1881 and her marriage to Harry Rundle in 1899.

Harry Rundle must've been aged about 63 years old when he was lodging with Mr & Mrs Jones. I find it interesting that he's ended up living with someone who was initially most probably a complete stranger, & not living out his old age with any of his & Alice's children instead. It seems as though his affair with Minnie, his subsequent estrangement from Alice & their children, Minnie's death, & the decisions he made with regards to placing his & Minnie's children in the care home all took their toll on him emotionally & psychologically. Perhaps Harry felt that he'd be able to cope better if he was living with people he didn't know. He had a roof over his head, some company when he needed it, but could also keep his distance emotionally because he wasn't related to them. Harry Rundle probably felt he'd had enough "dramas" over the years & just didn't want the complications. I do wonder, though, if he ever gave any thought to the children he'd essentially abandoned.

Something else I've wondered about since doing all this research is whether Harry Hales & Harry Rundle actually knew each other as friends, seeing as though they were both in the British Army. As stated by jim1, "he (Harry Rundle) was now assuming the role & name of Harry Hales" when living with Minnie Hales. And Harry was "using his time in the RGA to fly under the radar while he's living with Minnie", so Alice wouldn't find out. This could only mean that Harry Hales was killed in the war. Perhaps Minnie was so devastated by the loss of her husband, & Harry Rundle was devastated at the loss of his friend as well, that they turned to each other for comfort & assistance, which led to their relationship & 2 more children? Obviously all these events occurred 100 years ago now so I'll never know for sure, but if I could turn back time, I'd love to know if Minnie ever found out that Harry Rundle was already a married man when she met him, but decided to overlook that "minor detail"! To be a fly on a wall in that respect would've been very interesting indeed!

Many thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: ShaunJ on Friday 25 October 19 14:09 BST (UK)
Quote
This could only mean that Harry Hales was killed in the war


I don't think that follows. We've been unable to find a military death record for a Harry or Henry Hales that fits the bill.

Is there any evidence that Harry Hales was in the army after 1901? Do you have the 1904 marriage record?

The 6th battalion of the Worcestershire Regiment was a militia unit - part time soldiers - embodied in 1901 to serve in the Boer War and disembodied in 1902.

Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Friday 25 October 19 14:19 BST (UK)
Jersey Channel Islands not Nova Scotia. There's no reason to believe the 2 men knew each other unless Harry Hales was in the same unit.
I can't find a death for Harry Hales WW1. It's sad to say there's more information about soldiers that died than those that survived.
I'll take another look anyway in case he enlisted again.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Friday 25 October 19 15:42 BST (UK)
Hi ShaunJ & jim1, thanks for replying.

Quote
Is there any evidence that Harry Hales was in the army after 1901? Do you have the 1904 marriage record?

I've no evidence that Harry Hales was in the army after 1901, at this time.

As far as the marriage between Harry Hales & Minnie Inchley is concerned, I came across some details on a website called www.genealogy.com, however, the user only identifies themselves as "Debbie" or "genealogy.com user". This is the actual wording on the forum:-

"I am trying to trace my maternal family tree.My mother, Minnie Hales, was a home child who came to Canada in 1926.Her mother, Minnie Hales married her dad Harry Hales on August 20, 1904 at the Parish Church of Saint Agatha Sparkbrook in the County of Birmingham.Harry's father is listed as Frederick Harry Hales (deceased) anhd Minnie's father is shown as George Edward Inchley. On the witnesses was Maryann Reeves, Minnie's sister.My mom can't remember her father (perhaps they separated early on).Mom was born in 1912.Her mother took up with a Harry Rundle who we believe was in the British army.Two or three other children were the result of the coupling.My grandmother died at the age of 36 at which time Rundle put the children in a
home.Mom and her sister came to Canada.The youngest, Joseph Rundle was sent to Australia.I would appreciate any help out there.Thanks,"

And there is also this on the same website, under user name "Judith Hunter":-

"Joseph was the son of Edwin and Betsey Inchley of Aston in Birmingham. he was living with his brother George Edward in the 1881 census.
His death certificate reveals that he died on the Apr 15 at Queens Hospital, Bath Row, Birmingham. He was 20 years old and a groom. The certified cause of death was Enteric Fever, Peritonitis certified by A Orchard MRCS.
(Was this septicaemia caught through his job?)
The death was registered on Apr 18 by G Inchley, brother of 3 King St, Sparkbrook who was in attendance at the death. I have a copy of the certificate.
There are two major groupings of Inchleys in England at this time. I come from the Birmingham grouping of which I have identified 450+ members so far. The other major grouping is based in Leicestershire. I think your Joseph sounds like a member of the Leicestshire group."

These are the only details I've managed to find with regards to the marriage between Harry Hales & Minnie Inchley.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Friday 25 October 19 19:10 BST (UK)
Again I've found nothing for Harry Hales after the birth of his last child in 1915.
My guess is that he's found out about the affair & packed his bags.
There's also nothing in B'ham for Joseph's brother Stanley who probably went overseas too.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Sunday 27 October 19 08:05 GMT (UK)
Hi everyone, another day looking into the past! Thanks again for all your help  :)

Again I've found nothing for Harry Hales after the birth of his last child in 1915.
My guess is that he's found out about the affair & packed his bags.
There's also nothing in B'ham for Joseph's brother Stanley who probably went overseas too.


I've done a little more research & found out Stanley was born 9th January 1917 & died on 12th November 1943. I believe Stanley may have enlisted in the British Army & fought in WWII. I did a general search on www.ancestry.co.uk & these details are part of a private member's collection, so I can't go any further at this stage. I believe, however, that the private member is part of the Rundle family.

Yes it's quite possible Harry Hales walked away from the marriage due to his wife's affair with Harry Rundle, but I'm still interested to know what happened to him. If this is what he did, I'm left to wonder if he knew about Harry Rundle putting all the children into the Birmingham children's home when Minnie died in 1923. Even though all these events occurred around 100 years ago, I'm wondering why Harry Hales didn't have a say in any of this, as he was the biological father of at least 4 of these children, unless he simply chose not to become involved. Harry Hales was then a widower in 1923, & free to marry again if he chose to do so. This is all a bit quite odd! As I mentioned earlier, Harry & Minnie Hales' 2 eldest children, Frederick & Elsie, may have gotten work/enlisted in the armed forces if they were considered too old to enter the children's home. But I'm also wondering whether they searched for their father & possibly lived with him for some time instead.

If Harry Hales had any siblings, I'm wondering why they might not have stepped in & assisted with the care of the children once Minnie died. Harry Hales' father's name was Frederick Harry Hales, as per Harry's marriage details, but I haven't gotten any further into researching Frederick's details yet, i.e., his wife, other children, where he lived, etc. The genealogy.com user mentions Frederick was deceased at the time of Harry & Minnie's marriage, which may explain why Harry was boarding with the Inchley family prior to his marriage.

Harry Rundle had an older brother Alfred, & an older sister Nellie, so this also makes me wonder why they may or may not have been able to take all or any of the children in to look after them, instead of them being placed in a children's home. I'm assuming because all of this occurred 100 years ago, the legalities of everything would be different from modern times, i.e., no welfare support system, etc.

I believe one daughter Elsie from Minnie's marriage married in 1936.

This would be Elsie Maud Hales, born in or around 1909, Kings Norton, Birmingham, UK. It would be interesting to find further details of Elsie's marriage, i.e., what was her husband's name, details of where they were living, any children, & whether it's possible her father lived with her for some time, etc.

I'd be interested also in finding out more details of Harry & Minnie Hales' eldest son, Frederick. He was age 17 when his mother died, so most likely enlisted in the British Army soon after. If anyone can help with details of his life, marriage, children, death, where he lived, etc., it would be much appreciated.

The outcome of the affair between Harry Rundle & Minnie Hales & her subsequent death is, to be honest, quite sad. After their time in the Birmingham children's home, the 2 eldest children stayed in England; the 2 middle girls, Minnie & Ethel, went to Canada under the child migration scheme; the 2nd youngest boy, Stanley, appears to have stayed in England as well; and the youngest son, Joseph, went to Australia under the child migration scheme. All of the siblings were scattered between 3 countries: England, Canada & Australia. It's quite a bit to take in, & therefore quite a bit of research.

Slowly putting the puzzle pieces together! Many thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 27 October 19 11:02 GMT (UK)
Quote
Harry Rundle had an older brother Alfred, & an older sister Nellie
I can see an older brother Alfred b. 1872 & a sister Florence b. 1875 but she died at birth.
There's no Nellie born to Joseph & Jane Rumble/Rundle.
Alfred married in B'ham & had 2 sons who would have been young adults in 1923 so either no room for any more or Alfred was estranged from his brother.
Quote
he was the biological father of at least 4 of these children
I would say 3.
Although he didn't marry Minnie he would have been regarded as the Guardian of her other children.
I've had another look at Elsie's marriage + a couple of others on the 1939 Register but none were born 1909 so not her.
Quote
I believe Stanley may have enlisted in the British Army & fought in WWII. I did a general search on www.ancestry.co.uk & these details are part of a private member's collection
Had a look at the ancestry trees but I can't see him.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Gibel on Sunday 27 October 19 14:10 GMT (UK)
Sergeant Stanley Maurice Rundell Hales is buried in Brandwood End Cemetery Birmingham. He was on the Kings Roral Rifle Brigade. He is listed on the Commonwealth War Graves site and has a CWGC gravestone. There is a photo on the Find a grave site.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 27 October 19 14:33 GMT (UK)
nice one.
He was in the 1st. Batt. KRRC.
It says Grandson of Mrs. A. Carey of Sparkbrook B'ham.
Potentially he had 3 Grandmothers.
Jane Rundle/Rumble (d.1918), Mary Ann Inchley (d.1914) & Harry Hales' mother.
Looked for an Inchley/Carey marriage & found Doris A M Inchley married Charley Carey 1920.
She was Stanley's aunt, sister of Minnie.
She did live in Sparkbrook.
I've also been tracing the Rundle children from his marriage to Alice.
Pretty much as you would expect, married had kids & moved around B'ham a bit.
The 2 daughter Edith & Millie both married a Pittaway possibly brothers.
In 1945 Edith lived at no. 8 Wood Green Rd. I was born there at 33.
It was a very small road that ended in a cul-de-sac.
A bit before I was born but my parents would have known them.

Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Monday 28 October 19 01:44 GMT (UK)
Sergeant Stanley Maurice Rundell Hales is buried in Brandwood End Cemetery Birmingham. He was on the Kings Roral Rifle Brigade. He is listed on the Commonwealth War Graves site and has a CWGC gravestone. There is a photo on the Find a grave site.

Thank you Gibel, this is amazing information. I've just looked up the cemetery & there is an email address, so I'll contact them to find out more information. His younger brother, Joseph, died 15th February 1984 in Casino, a small, rural northern NSW town in Australia. Joseph is buried at Casino Lawn Cemetery.

Many thanks!  :)
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Monday 28 October 19 04:27 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, the information below was found by tazzie, with regards to a Nellie Rundle, Harry Rundle's sister. I'm assuming this is from the 1891 Census, which means Nellie would've been born around 1870. Her information doesn't mention a Florence Rundle, who would've been the child born between Alfred & Harry:-
Baptism....

Harry Rumble born 7 October 1876 baptised 28 October 1880 Christ church Luton Bedfordshire.
Father Joseph mother Jane.

1891 family are in Kings Norton Worcestershire.RG 12  2335/47

Joseph Rumble hd 48 hatter Bedfordshire
Jane Rumble.   Wi  50Buckinghamshire
Nellie dau 21 milliner Bedfordshire
Alfred son 18 railway fireman Luton
Harry son 14 pianoforte finisher Bedfordshire.

Tazzie

It's quite possible Alfred & Harry were definitely estranged from each other, considering the complicated situation Harry found himself in regarding Minnie/Harry Hales! I can't imagine the gossip surrounding the situation, but it would've put a strain on all parties involved  :-\

nice one.
He was in the 1st. Batt. KRRC.
It says Grandson of Mrs. A. Carey of Sparkbrook B'ham.
Potentially he had 3 Grandmothers.
Jane Rundle/Rumble (d.1918), Mary Ann Inchley (d.1914) & Harry Hales' mother.
Looked for an Inchley/Carey marriage & found Doris A M Inchley married Charley Carey 1920.
She was Stanley's aunt, sister of Minnie.
She did live in Sparkbrook.
I've also been tracing the Rundle children from his marriage to Alice.
Pretty much as you would expect, married had kids & moved around B'ham a bit.
The 2 daughter Edith & Millie both married a Pittaway possibly brothers.
In 1945 Edith lived at no. 8 Wood Green Rd. I was born there at 33.
It was a very small road that ended in a cul-de-sac.
A bit before I was born but my parents would have known them.


A few very interesting pieces of information in this one! Here goes:-

1. We know that Jane Rundle was Harry Rundle's mother, & Stanley & Joseph's paternal grandmother. Jane was born around 1841 & died in 1918. Her husband was Joseph Rundle born around 1843. I have no details on Joseph Rundle's death at this time so will have to research that one.

2. We know that Mary Ann Inchley was Minnie Eva Inchley's mother, & was Stanley & Joseph's maternal grandmother. My research indicates Mary Ann's maiden name was Booden. She was born around 1860 & died in 1914. Her husband was George Edward Inchley, born around 1854 & died in 1917. They had 14 children, 11 girls & 3 boys, quite a large family!

3. Doris A M Inchley is Doris Alice May Inchley & was, as you said, one of Minnie Eva Inchley's sisters, & therefore, Stanley & Joseph's aunt. My research indicates Doris was born around 1902 & died in 1977. Her husband was Charles Henry Carey, & they married in 1920, as you also mentioned.

4. Could Mrs A Carey have been Charles Carey's mother, & taken on the role of grandmother to Stanley perhaps? Seeing as though Jane & Mary Ann, both the biological grandparents, were already dead, this is quite possible, even though technically she was a great-aunt to Stanley.

5. I can't find any details of who Harry Hales' mother was, so it would be interesting to find this out.

6. I may have Harry & Alice Rundle's youngest child's name wrong. I thought it might be Nellie Louisa Rundle, not Millie.

7. My research indicates there is a death for an Edith Pittaway around the year 2000, in which case she lived until she was 94 years old, but this may not be her.

8. It's amazing that your parents may have known Edith Rundle & her husband. It would be interesting to know if your parents also knew Edith's parents, Harry & Alice Rundle, but that may be a little more difficult to find out now!

Many thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Monday 28 October 19 10:16 GMT (UK)
I've just come across some information under an "historical person search" on the website www.ancestry.co.uk, & it mentions Nellie L Rundle (not Millie) was married to a Frederick Pittaway, possibly Frederick William Pittaway, born around 1906/1907 & died in 1962. Seems as though there are quite a few Pittaways from the Birmingham area! I'll keep researching details of Edith Rundle's relationship with a Pittaway.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Monday 28 October 19 11:05 GMT (UK)
Quote
Nellie L Rundle (not Millie)
The census looks like Milly but knowing her mmn was Booden I looked it up & found it was Nellie Louisa as you say.
I think the Mrs. A Carey is Doris she would have been his closest relative & probably down as his NOK.
His service record is still with the MOD but it will cost £30 for a copy & probably a 6 month wait.
I looked up what the 1/KRRC were doing ww2 & they were part of Monty's desert rats who fought Rommel in N. Africa.
They then spearheaded the invasion of Sicily which is probably where he was wounded & evacuated back to the UK but only his service record will tell you what happened.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Monday 28 October 19 14:17 GMT (UK)
I think I've found Harry Hales in 1881/91, father Frederick a jeweller. If that's his occupation on their marriage then it's the right one. Lived in All Saints ward which is the same end as Minnie Inchley. Doesn't help much though.
RG11; Piece: 3009; Folio: 110; Page: 62
RG12; Piece: 2367; Folio: 75; Page: 14
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Monday 28 October 19 17:00 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, all the information helps quite a lot, don't worry about that!  :)

It's quite possible that the private member on www.ancestry.co.uk I mentioned previously has a copy of Stanley's service record, but I would have to check with other family members on this to clarify.

I've had a look on Google Maps at Edith's house at 8 Wood Green Road, & realised how close it is to Bacchus Road, where Edith's mother Alice lived, however, methods of transportation approximately 75 years ago would be very different to modern ones today!

My research indicates that the 1939 Register shows Frederick & Nellie Pittaway lived at 127 Kemberton Road, Birmingham, & 3 more who are possibly their children.

My research on www.ancestry.co.uk also indicates that there is a death for a Nellie Pittaway in 1993, so she would've lived until around 83 years of age, but this may not be her.

I'm still searching for Edith Rundle's marriage to a Pittaway, & any children as well.

At the time of the 1881 Census, Harry Hales would've been about 6 years old, so in 1891 about 16 years old. In 1901, Harry Hales was boarding with Minnie Inchley's family. Harry Hales & Minnie Inchley married in 1904 at St Agatha's Church, Sparkbrook, & Harry's father, Frederick Hales, was already deceased at this time. I'm still searching for any information regarding Harry Hales' mother, &/or any siblings he may have had. My research indicates that on the 1939 Register, Harry Hales was living at 4 Yoxall Grove, Birmingham, & 1 more person residing at this address with him at this time, if this is the same Harry Hales who married Minnie Inchley & was a still a widower in 1939.

Obviously there are still lots of little bits of information to find out, so I'll keep searching!  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Monday 28 October 19 17:18 GMT (UK)
Harry was born 1879. There are 3 Harry Hales in B'ham. How do you know it's him?
If memory serves Harry in Yoxall rd. was married to Gertrude. They also had a daughter Minnie just to confuses things.
Just checked & that Harry Hales married Gertrude Roberts 1905.
Another Harry Hales is lodging with the Snow family in Balsall Heath in 1927 but no way of knowing if it's him.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 29 October 19 19:14 GMT (UK)
Harry Hales is either 23 or 33 in the 1901 census, with 33 possibly more likely for a militia sergeant.

So he was born either circa 1867/8 or 1877/8.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 29 October 19 19:24 GMT (UK)
He's age 2 in 1881 so 1878 is more likely.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Wednesday 30 October 19 01:25 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, yes you're right. The Harry Hales we are looking into was born in 1879, so only 2 years old at the time of 1881 Census, & 12 years old at the time of 1891 Census. When he was boarding with the Inchleys in 1901 he would've been around 22 years old, & when he married Minnie in 1904, he would've been around 25 years old. Minnie would've been around 18 years old when she married Harry.

If Harry Hales was 33 years old in 1901, then he would've been twice Minnie's age when they married in 1904. Quite an age difference! But then again, my parents were 14 years apart when they married.

Earlier on, it was mentioned that Harry & Minnie Hales & family weren't showing up on the 1911 Census information, so that needs more research.

My assumption that Harry Hales of Yoxall Road was the one we were looking for was a bit far-fetched, however, the Harry Hales lodging with the Snow family in 1927 sounds a bit closer to the mark. Still, as you said, there's probably no way of knowing this.

My research indicates that the 1939 Register shows Charles & Doris Carey lived at 3/44 Studley Street, Birmingham, UK & 3 more people who are possibly their children.Perhaps there is a possibility that one of these 3 could be Stanley Maurice Rundle, his last known registered address?

I've been looking a little more into some of the others, so here goes:-

1. The 1939 Register indicates that a Thomas Henry White & Alice Maud White (previously married to Harry Rundle) were living at 10/90 Ashley Gardens, Birmingham, UK. However, you mentioned earlier that Alice Maud White died in 1936, & that Thomas was still living at the Bacchus Road address for some time after she died. I can't seem to find a Thomas & Alice White living at the Bacchus Road address with the details that you gave me, so that needs looking into, or I just have the wrong Thomas & Alice White.

2. The 1939 Register indicates a Frederick Hales (Minnie & Harry Hales' eldest son) & Florence Hales  & 2 more, possibly their children, living at 17 Barn Lane, Solihull. This address is apparently now Akamba Heritage Centre.

Still looking into others, many thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Wednesday 30 October 19 11:13 GMT (UK)
Bacchus rd.
Had a look at the 1939 register & can't see an Alice Maud White.
Later:
OK the one you looked at is a different couple.
The register only shows her as Alice White b. 1870. Alice Maud was born 1879.
This Alice was married to Norman White a banker.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Wednesday 30 October 19 16:20 GMT (UK)
Just to give an idea of where they lived these are Park View cottages 1938.
You can see they are a type of backhouse accessed from the alleyway.
Not there today but the houses opposite are which will give you an idea of what they looked like.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Saturday 02 November 19 06:06 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, those electoral rolls look quite interesting don't they. I notice that Leslie & his wife Emily are living with Thomas & Alice, prior to Leslie going off to the war, then as you said previously, Leslie & Emily are living in Quinton in the 1950's. Then Alice's daughter Edith & her husband Henry are living with them in 1935, just prior to Alice passing away the following year. It makes me wonder if this is because Alice was quite ill leading up to her death, & perhaps her daughter was there to help look after her. Then in 1939, it looks like Thomas White has a couple of lodgers living with him, Charles Wood & John Thornton. I've found some information on others based on the 1939 Register as follows:-

1. The 1939 Register indicates an Edith E M & Henry Pittaway living at 119 Ellerton Road, Birmingham, UK. This could be Alice & Harry Rundle's eldest daughter, Edith, born 1906. There are 3 more mentioned on the register, possibly their children. And, like you said, Henry & Frederick Pittaway could possibly be brothers.

2. The 1939 Register indicates a Henry Charles & Clara E Rundle living at 7/42 Aberdeen Street, Birmingham, UK, with no others mentioned. This could be Alice & Harry Rundle's eldest son, Henry Charles born 1902.

3. The 1939 Register indicates an Albert Edward & Lottie Rundle living at 325 Shenley Fields Road, Birmingham, UK, with 2 more, possibly their children. This could be Alice & Harry Rundle's second eldest son, Albert, born 1903.

4. The 1939 Register indicates an Elsie Maud Hales, married to Harry R Harris, living at 84 Riversdale Road, Birmingham UK. This could be Harry & Minnie Hales' eldest daughter born around 1909. There are 3 more, possibly their children.

There's more that I'd eventually like to find out about Harry Hales, so need to keep looking into that one. He's a bit of an elusive character for sure!

There's even more I'd like to find out about the Inchley family in general, including any details on Minnie Eva Inchley's death, her other siblings, etc. One of the users on the website www.genealogy.com stated that they thought Minnie had a sister, Mary Ann Reeves, who was a witness to Minnie & Harry Hales' marriage in 1904. However, I can't find details of Minnie having a sister by that name anywhere. Obviously, Reeves would be her married name. Minnie was supposedly one of 14 children, & her parents were George Edward & Mary Ann Inchley.

Many thanks  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 02 November 19 11:41 GMT (UK)
Mary Ann Inchley b.1883 married Walter Reeves 1903.
There are 11 children in total.
1880 Amy
1882 Nellie
1883 Mary Ann
1885 Minnie
1887 Arthur (Sapper RE WW1)
1889 Florence
1893 William (birth not registered)
1897 Martha (ditto)
1898 Frank
1902 Doris
1904 Gertrude
There is another George Inchley in B'ham having 9 children around the same time & I think someone has mixed up to 2 families.
Best to ignore online trees most are wrong.
1901:
George Inckley 46 (d.1917)
Mary A Inckley 40 (d.1914) nee Booden m.1881 (parents Richard Booden & Ann Sanders m. Xmas day 1853 Kenilworth)
Amy Inckley 20
Nellie Inckley 19
Mary A Inckley 17
Minnie Inckley 15
Arthur Inckley 13
Florence Inckley 11
William Inckley 8
Martha Inckley 4
Harry Hales 23
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Sunday 03 November 19 02:24 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, thanks for those details on Mary Ann Inchley & her husband, Walter Reeves, & the 1901 Census information for the Hales family. I can see that Harry Hales is actually 23 years old in 1901 (not 33!), so around 26 years old when he & Minnie were married.

The only thing that's odd about their Census information is that you mentioned Doris A M Inchley was one of Minnie's sisters, & Stanley Rundle's great-aunt, however, she is not mentioned here.

Here is the link to the details on www.ancestry.com which shows Doris as one of George Edward Inchley's daughters: https://www.ancestry.com.au/genealogy/records/george-edward-inchley-24-1tdw52. 

All the other names of George's children with Mary Ann Booden are mentioned, as well as 6 other children, however, there is no Mary Ann on this list (whose husband is Walter Reeves). You mentioned that online information could be wrong, so is it possible that this is what's happened here? Perhaps Doris & the 6 other children come from another Inchley family instead? I think we really need to clarify all of this, otherwise too much confusion will ensue!

Many thanks  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Sunday 03 November 19 06:14 GMT (UK)
Hi everyone, I've just added myself to "Family Links" under the "Database For Special Interest Groups (DSFIG) - British Home Children" in the RootsChat Reference Library. This is for my grandfather, Joseph John Rundle, ID # 26853.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 03 November 19 11:20 GMT (UK)
Amended above post to add Doris.
The mmn of the children changes from Booden to Boden & back again.
Also found another 2 which I've added to the list.
So that's 11 in total.
As Frank isn't listed on the 1901 census must mean he's died but there isn't a death registered for him.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Tuesday 05 November 19 12:10 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, just further to that list of George & Mary Ann Inchley's children that you provided, I notice that William & Martha's births aren't registered but the other children's births are, & I was wondering what would be the possible reason for this.

I've done some more research regarding Frank, Minnie's younger brother, & on www.findmypast.co.uk, there is a Frank Inchley who enlisted in the Royal Tank Corps in 1919. Looking into things a little further, I've found that his Regiment Number is 99627 & his rank was a Private. The Frank Inchley that is Minnie's brother would've been around 16 years old when WW1 began. It would be interesting to find out if these military details belong to Minnie's younger brother. Other information I've uncovered on www.findmypast.co.uk for a Frank Inchley is as follows:-

1. There is a marriage in 1926 in South Birmingham, making Frank 28 years old when he married;
2. There is a death in 1973 in Birmingham, making Frank 75 years old when he died;
3. The 1939 Register indicates a Frank Inchley living with Clara L Inchley at 39 Valley Road, Solihull, UK, with no others mentioned on the record.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 05 November 19 13:09 GMT (UK)
There are 2 Frank Inchleys b. 1898 B'ham this is the other one. Parents are Frank & Margaret.
As your Frank doesn't appear on the 1901 census indicates he died.
Why they didn't register some of the births or deaths is anyone's guess, probably the same reason they didn't do the 1911 census, couldn't be bothered.
If you wanted to pursue the other Frank you would need his marriage cert & his service record which is with the MOD, as with Stanley it's going to cost £30 to get it.
I've traced all of the Inchleys except for William, Florence & Frank who I assume all died but went unregistered. In fact you wouldn't even know William existed if it wasn't for the 1901 census.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 05 November 19 13:18 GMT (UK)
Unregistered deaths are not the answer. Deaths did not go unregistered unless the bodies were concealed.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 05 November 19 13:22 GMT (UK)
Just to confirm the other Frank Inchley, his address in 1918 is 1 Mona Place Deritend. This is the same address as Frank & Margaret. At that time he was in the MGC with the same number you have.
Many MGC men transferred to the Tank Corps.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 05 November 19 13:29 GMT (UK)
Quote
Unregistered deaths are not the answer. Deaths did not go unregistered unless the bodies were concealed.
Prompted by this (thanks Shaun) I've just checked all the Frank deaths Warks & Worcs 1898-01 (thanks again) & there's a Frank Hinchley death registered Sept. 1898 which must be your Frank.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 05 November 19 13:33 GMT (UK)
Did you see the Florence Inchley death in West Bromwich in 1922?
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 05 November 19 13:35 GMT (UK)
Yes but there was an Inchley family living there at the time so couldn't be sure. Only the cert will confirm.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 05 November 19 14:41 GMT (UK)
Following on, Martha Maud Hinchley mmn Booding b. 1896.
That just leaves William, birth not found but died in 1973.
There's a death for a William Hinchley 1893 B'ham age 0.
There's a birth for a William Hinchley 1893 but mother's name is Vye.
So I've searched for Inchley/Hinchley mmn Booden/Boden & Booding & that's all there is.
Couldn't make it up could you.
So to recap:
There are 11 children in total.
1880 Amy (MF)
1882 Nellie (MF)
1883 Mary Ann (MF)
1885 Minnie (MF)
1887 Arthur (Sapper RE WW1) (MF)
1889 Florence (Possibly died W.Brom.1922 age 33:see ShaunJ's post)
1893 William (birth not registered) d.1973 (MF)
1896 Martha registered as Hinchley (MF)
1898 Frank d.1898 as Hinchley
1902 Doris (MF)
1904 Gertrude (MF)
(MF)= marriage found
I was drawn to this 1950 Electoral Roll:
Doris Carey nee Inchley & opposite a William H Inchley.
When you've absorbed all of this there is more.
If you think this is complicated see what comes next.
When you're ready for more let me know.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 09 November 19 11:21 GMT (UK)
Is this now concluded?
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Sunday 10 November 19 05:47 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, sorry but I've yet to read the posts since my last one on Tuesday 5th November, so I can take everything in, & then see what needs to be looked at after that. Many thanks for your help & everyone else's in the meantime!

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Wednesday 13 November 19 01:03 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1 (& others!), I'm taking some time now to look at the posts you sent so I can catch up on everything. Sorry for taking so long, but I live in Australia & we have unprecedented bushfires down here at the moment, it's devastating. Everywhere you go you breathe in smoke & the sun is always red. So here goes:-

1. It looks like the Frank Inchley I was looking into isn't related to Minnie, so as you said, he most likely died very young/at birth.
2. I've looked at the details you provided from the 1950 Electoral Roll regarding Doris Carey & William Inchley, & you mention it gets complicated, so I'm interested to find out more!
3. I took the opportunity over the weekend of being able to look up some other details, as www.findmypast.co.uk allowed free access due to Remembrance Day. The image of the 1901 Census for the Inchley family showed Harry Hales' age was handwritten as 33, but it actually looked like someone had written "33" over the top of something else. This makes his birth year different to what it was originally thought to be - 1879. So that complicates things a little again!
4. What I'm still having trouble finding out is any death details relating to Minnie Eva Hales (nee Inchley, year of death supposed to be 1923) & Harry Hales as well. If he disappeared after discovering the affair between his wife & Harry Rundle, who knows what happened to him.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Wednesday 13 November 19 12:21 GMT (UK)
The bushfires have been widely reported over here, looks terrible but glad to see you're ok.
It's probably worth putting up who the Inchleys married.
1901-Nellie=Alfred Chicketts
1902-Amy=William Hill
1903-Mary Ann=Walter Reeves
1904-Minnie=Harry Hales
1909-Arthur=Alice Flowers
1914-William=Ruby Ingram
1916-Martha=George Pemberton
1920-Doris=Charles Carey
1923-Gertrude=Fred. Stokes
In an earlier post I said there was a Harry Hales living with an Alice F Snow in 1927 which might be him.
On the above 1950 ER you will see a William H Inchley living with an Alice F Snow.
So decided to put her under the spotlight & found in 1925 & 27 Harry is living with Alice at the same address as above.
In 1930 living with Alice F is a Harry Inchley & Alice M Inchley.
According to the 1939 register Harry Inchley was born 1903 & checking his birth register there is no mmn meaning he was illegitimate.
As the 3 oldest girls were married the only mother it could be is Minnie.
The circumstantial evidence is that Harry b.1903 is the illegitimate child of Harry Hales & Minnie.
Harry b.1903 married Alice May Snow in 1925. She is the daughter of Alice F.
As they were too young to vote they won't appear on the ER's until 1930 which they do living with Alice F.
I'm pretty sure in 1925 & 27 they were living with Alice F & Harry Hales.
In 1927 Harry & Alice May had a son William H, he is the William H who appears with Alice F in 1950 & 55.
He wouldn't have been eligible to vote until 1948 so 1950 is the first time he will appear.
At this time Doris who is his aunt is also living in the same road.
Alice May died in 1933 & Harry b.1903 went to live in Coventry leaving William H with his mother-in-law.
In 1939 Alice F is at the same address as above with one redacted who is certainly William H.
What this does is prove that the Harry Hales who appears in 1925 & 27 is the missing Harry Hales & Harry Inchley b.1903 is half-brother to Joseph & Stanley.
It also shows that Harry Hales was still in contact with his children.
Have to go out but back later.
A bit about Minnie's brother William who's birth we couldn't find. He did quite well for himself, he had a good job at the Longbridge car plant & lived in Rubery which even today is a nice place to live as it sits at the foot of the Lickey Hills a local beauty spot.
In 1939 he has an Olive Pemberton living with him, the youngest of 8 children of Martha Inchley.
If you want to know about Minnie's death you will have to get the death cert.
If you want to know more about Harry Hales you will need to get his marriage cert.
Below is a map which represents about a square mile of Sparkbrook. As you can see there are a number of Inchleys living quite close to each other. In there is also Harry Rundle & Harry Hales.
Where Joseph & Stanley are in the mix is impossible to say.
You say they were put into care in 1923. Do you have anything to support this?
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Friday 15 November 19 03:54 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, I'm sitting in my local library at the moment & I've got access to electoral rolls & various other things through www.findmypast.co.uk. I'm following up on the information you've given me. So, to confirm:-

1. During the 2nd half of 1923 & all of 1924, Alice was living alone at 7 Albert Terrace Studley Street, Birmingham, UK. (Prior to that - all of 1922 & 1st half of 1923 - Alice was living there with her eldest son, Arthur Charles Snow.)

2. From the 2nd half of 1925 - 1928, Harry Hales was living there along with Alice F Snow, & her son Walter Henry Snow.

3. From 1929 onwards, things seem to change. Alice F Snow, her son Walter, Harry Inchley (Harry Hales' illegitimate son) & his wife Alice May are all living at the abovementioned address. Gone is the ever-elusive Mr Harry Hales.

4. There is a marriage transcription for a William Inchley, for the marriage year of 1947 & the spouse's name is Jill Wilson. If this is Harry & Alice May Inchley's son William born 1927, this makes him around 20 years old when he married, so this could be him.

5. With regards to the Hales/Rundle children being put into care when their mother died in 1923, as far as I know there are only family recollections as to what actually happened around that time. To be perfectly honest, I'm not even sure that 1923 is the actual year when Minnie Eva Hales died. But here is a link to Joseph John Rundle's NAA (National Archives of Australia) records:

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6480713

These records show the address on his attestation papers being the Fairbridge Farm School at Pinjarra, Western Australia & letters between the Australian Army & The Salvation Army Missing Persons Unit, trying to locate Joseph John Rundle for his half-sister, Ethel.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Friday 15 November 19 11:11 GMT (UK)
When looking at the ER's you have to remember that only people eligible to vote appear, ie. 21 for men & 30 for women (pre.1930). There could be others under voting age. I believe Harry Inchley Jnr. & Alice May nee Snow & their son William H are also there up to when Alice May died + some of her own children.
I'm pretty sure the 1923 death is her, it's the right place & right age but only her death cert. will confirm it.
I believe with regard to Joseph & Stanley their record in care may be subject to the 100 year rule so it might not possible to access them, however with some information the 50 year rule may apply so it may be worth contacting B'ham Council Social Services & see what they have to say.
http://www.careleavers.com/what-we-do/access-to-records/accessing/database/
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Sunday 17 November 19 03:34 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, sorry my mistake. I forgot to include those still living with their mother, Alice F Snow, who were ineligible to vote at the time.

I'm still interested to find out where Harry Hales disappeared to after 1929, i.e., when he moved out of Alice Snow's address in Studley Street at the time Harry & Alice May were living there with their son, William. At least he would've been there to meet his grandson. I wonder if it's possible he boarded with another one of his children & their partner, so I'm still looking into that one.

I was at my local library again yesterday morning, participating in a Family History Research Session which I'd been on a waiting list for, & I uncovered a few other details. I managed to print out the following:-

1. Details of Harry Rundle's wife & their 5 children, & their marriage taking place in 1899 at the Weymouth registry office, from his Military History Sheet.

2. The letters that Alice Maud Rundle had written to the British Army, trying to get their assistance in locating her missing husband. These letters are dated from 1915 through to about 1919. She acknowledges in what appears to be her last letter to them that they've replied in February 1919, & that they've only said Harry was ill, but there's no copy of the British Army's reply to Alice in amongst Harry's service records online.

3. A letter from Harry Rundle, dated 24th June 1927, to the British Army requesting information from his military service records to produce for future employment. His writes his address as "2 Nora Avenue, Fulham Road, Sparkhill, Birmingham".

4. A copy of the 1901 England Census showing Harry Hales boarding with the Inchley family at 16 Ernest Road, Balsall Heath, Birmingham, UK. It clearly shows Harry Hales as a Sergeant of the 6th Worcestershire Regiment, & as I mentioned previously, his age seems to have been altered.

During this session, we only had access to www.ancestry.co.uk records, but I managed to find out the following. Maybe you could confirm some of this information to be true (or not!):-

1. George Edward Inchley b.1854 married Mary Anne Booden b.1860 on 4th December 1881 at St Andrew's Church, Bordersley, Birmingham, UK. If their eldest daughter Amy was born in 1880, this means she was illegitimate.

2. Three of Minnie's sisters passed away relatively close to one another - Nellie died in March 1928, Birmingham, UK; Amy died in June 1936, Birmingham, UK; & Mary Ann also died in June 1936, Birmingham, UK.

4. The death of Doris A M Carey, nee Inchley, on 25th December 1977.

5. A piece of very strange information was discovered as well. A half-sister of Minnie & her siblings, named Gertrude, was supposedly born in 1888 to Mary Anne Booden & someone with the surname Slater. As you've mentioned previously, online family trees can be wrong, so maybe this Gertrude belongs to another family.

Thanks for the information regarding care records, I'll try to contact them & see what they come up with.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 17 November 19 11:13 GMT (UK)
I've seen the letters & the Army wouldn't have been particularly interested in his domestic situation unless it impacted on his service so they would have only given basic details of his whereabouts & physical condition.
It's clear that he was seeing Minnie from the time he was living in Ombersley Rd. Sparkbrook in 1911, although we don't know where Minnie was living at the time she would have been in that area. The family home where her father lived is just off the bottom of the map.
Alice probably knew of the affair & that's prompted the move to Winson Green which is as far from Sparkbrook as you can get & still be in B'ham.
I notice on his service record the Nora Ave. address has been pencilled in dated 1914 so it looks like he has made the move without telling Alice.
I'm not sure he joined the Army for purely patriotic reasons, it would have given him the opportunity to stay out of Alice's sight & see Minnie whenever he could. He didn't go overseas until April 1917 so spent 2 1/2 years in the UK & Alice hadn't seen him for the entire time.
When he was given leave he went straight to Nora Ave. Stanley being the result.
With regard to Harry Hales it's unclear when he & Minnie split, there are no births after they married in 1904 so possibly was gone by the time Harry Rundle came on the scene.
Best not to look at online trees as it just adds to the confusion. Gertrude doesn't exist.
Other than that the above information is correct.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 17 November 19 12:03 GMT (UK)
I should add that I'm now not convinced the Harry Hales who appears with Alice F in 1925 & 27 is the missing Harry.
I don't like to backtrack but it just seems odd on 2nd. viewing.
The last sighting of Harry Hales was the 1904 marriage. It seems odd that he would disappear for 21 years & reappear in 1925 & 27 & then disappear again.
Harry Inchley would have been brought up as Harry Hales as that was the family name although it says Inchley on his birth cert.
Being born 1903 he would have been eligible to vote by 1924 yet doesn't appear until 1930.
It's probable he went by the name Hales until the birth of his son William H Inchley.
Now he has a dilemma as we're into the age where accurate surnames matter. So William H is going to be known as William H Hales by changing his name or Harry is going to have to start calling himself Inchley which is what I think has happened.
It makes more sense to me now that the Harry Hales who appears in 1925 & 27 is Harry Inchley.
Title: Re: HARRY RUNDLE, BRITISH ARMY SOLDIER, BORN 1874, LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE, UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Monday 18 November 19 02:08 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, the information below was provided previously on this thread with regards to the children of Harry & Minnie Eva Hales. After Harry Jnr. was born out of wedlock in 1903, these are the children that followed. Maybe you can confirm these details if possible. Stanley & Joseph, of course, are the result of Minnie's relationship with Harry Rundle:-
GRO has the following Hales children with mmn Inchley

Frederick Mar 1906 Solihull 6D 650
Elsie Maud Jun 1909 Kings Norton 6c 406
Minnie Edith Sep 1912 Kings Norton 6c 673
Ethel Mary Mar 1914 Aston 6D 806
Stanley Maurice Rundle Mar 1917 Aston 6D 681

I can't find the family in 1911

Emeltom

Nor can I, and I also can't find Minnie's parents who I believe were still living.  I would expect them all to be somewhere in the Kings Norton district.

Debra  :)

I've read your latest posts, however, I would've thought that Minnie Hales & Harry Rundle meeting in or around 1911 was a bit early, maybe more like 1914/1915? But I could be wrong. Minnie Eva & Harry Hales are still having children up to 1914. Harry & Alice Rundle's 5 children were born from 1902 - 1910.

I can see where it's possible that the ever-elusive Harry Hales (Senior) can still be regarded as missing. To confirm then, if this is the case, from 1925 - 1929, Harry Hales born 1903 (who is really Harry Inchley), is living at Alice F Snow's address which is 7 Albert Terrace Studley Street, Birmingham. He marries her daughter, Alice May Snow, in 1925 & is still living at his mother-in-law's address with his wife & Alice's younger siblings for approximately 5 years. In 1927, Harry & Alice May's son William is born. The Electoral Register for 1929 shows Harry & Alice May's surname as Inchley.

Where the older Harry Hales is, born 1879, is a deepening mystery!

Alice F Snow died in 1969, living to a ripe old age of 92. According to the 1911 Census, her husband's name was Charles, born 1876, & his occupation was as a Bedstead Burnisher. I don't have details of his death as yet, however, by the early 1920's Alice F Snow must've already been widowed as he is not mentioned on the electoral rolls.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Monday 18 November 19 04:57 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1 & everyone else who's been able to assist me! I've been at my local library again today, finding out as many other details as I can regarding Harry Rundle/Harry Hales/Minnie Inchley. I've been able to look up more electoral roll information, so I'll have to go through everything properly which will take time. I'll post again when I can.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Monday 18 November 19 11:10 GMT (UK)
In Alice's letter dated May 1915 she says Harry has had 2 children with Minnie or to quote "another woman passing as his wife had 2 children by him". These can only be Minnie b. 1912 & Ethel b. 1914. Minnie's birth was registered Sept. Q 1912 so Harry Rundle & Minnie must have been together from at least 1911.
Just checked the births & the info is correct regards the other 2. I don't know how I missed them.
So Harry Hales disappears/dies 1909-11.
Harry Rundle had several spots of leave from Sept. 1914 & at least 4 up to Feb. 1915 which he spent with Minnie as Alice said she had not seen him since August when he joined.
With regards to Alice F I believe in the house is her, Alice M Hales/Inchley & Harry Hales/Inchley + any under age child of Alice F & in 1927 William H Hales/Inchley.
Hales would have been an alias & by this time could have made life difficult although would have been perfectly normal during his upbringing, so he used his birth name of Inchley after William H was born.
On the ER's you may see another Harry Hales with a wife Gertrude (m.1905). He can be ruled out.
What you need is Harry & Minnie's marriage cert. The more you know about him the better.
He may for instance have joined the Army & died but as he was estranged from Minnie may have put another family member as Legatee but as you don't know anything about him you can't rule that out.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Tuesday 19 November 19 03:08 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, well we're back to another day of smoke-filled air & possibly a bright red sun setting later on this evening. Yesterday, the weather where I live was a lot cooler, the sky was blue & it was quite pleasant, at least you could breathe properly! We even had a little thunder & rain over the weekend, with some areas of south-east Queensland receiving hail. Sadly, hotter temperatures are predicted for later on this week & next, which isn't going to help those fighting the bush fires. Our politicians "down under" like to argue a lot amongst themselves regarding where to place the blame for these fires & it's not helping anyone or anything at all. So there's a lot of fundraising going on down here at the moment, & I'm trying to find where I can help out. I'll try to keep on top of family history stuff in the meantime.

After having another look at Alice Rundle's letters to the British Army myself, I can see now that Minnie & Ethel most likely are Minnie & Harry Rundle's children, as you said. It's interesting to note, however, that nowhere else can I find evidence of this, meaning it was always assumed that Minnie & Ethel were Minnie & Harry Hales' children. I'm not even sure if there were other letters Ethel wrote to the Salvation Army Missing Persons Unit in Australia, when she was looking for my grandfather, Joseph, or whether Joseph's children have kept any letters she wrote to them, that might indicate some other details about all these complicated relationships.

If Harry Hales died around 1909-1911, that has to be worth looking into as well. I think previously you mentioned, however, that there was no record of a military death for Harry Hales. Perhaps one or more of his children was a beneficiary, or one of his own siblings. I will have to double check, however, I'm sure the 1881/1891 Census showed Harry Hales as having 2 siblings, both brothers, & that Harry was the middle child. Of course, this is only if it's the same Harry Hales we've been looking into.

Would the 1911 Census information for England show anything regarding the whereabouts of Harry Hales &/or Harry Rundle?

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: *Sandra* on Tuesday 19 November 19 05:29 GMT (UK)

Would the 1911 Census information for England show anything regarding the whereabouts of Harry Hales &/or Harry Rundle?

Regards  :)

The 1911 Census is available for free at familysearch.

Sandra
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 19 November 19 10:23 GMT (UK)
Harry Rundle is on the 1911 census under Rumble living in Ombersley Rd. Sparkbrook (see map).
This information you already have.
Harry Hales doesn't.
There are WW1 deaths for Harry/Henry Hales but none with Minnie as legatee.
Pursuing him is a waste of time without his marriage details.
Quote
I can see now that Minnie & Ethel most likely are Minnie & Harry Rundle's children, as you said. It's interesting to note, however, that nowhere else can I find evidence of this
What kind of evidence are you expecting to find?
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Wednesday 20 November 19 01:13 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, I suppose any other evidence to confirm that Minnie & Ethel really are Harry Rundle's children, & not Harry & Minnie Hales' children. The other family history website that I came across, www.genealogy.com, had the forum post from a direct descendant (grandchild) of Minnie Eva Inchley that I mentioned previously in this thread. It only mentions that her grandmother married a Harry Hales in 1904 & that her mother was born in 1912, that she believes her grandparents separated & her mother's not sure if Harry Hales passed away or simply disappeared, & that Harry Rundle met Minnie (year not mentioned) & had 2 more children. The forum post also mentions that when her grandmother died, Harry Rundle placed all the children in Middlemore Home, Birmingham, & subsequently as the children got older, they became part of the child migration scheme, ending up in Canada & Australia. This person's mother must have been Minnie, born 1912 in Birmingham. The user name is Judith Hunter, under "Inchley Family Genealogy", & she has quite a few posts regarding the Inchley family in general.

As I said, I don't know the whereabouts of the letters between Ethel, who went to Canada with Minnie, & Joseph John Rundle's children, so until I see those (if they still exist!) I'm unable to find out if there's any other information about the family.

I've just come across details regarding Middlemore Homes - address, phone numbers, email address & website so that will hopefully prove useful. There also seems to be a lot of facebook pages dedicated to British Home Children, even one called "British Home Child Book Club", so over time I'll keep checking those to see what else I can find.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Wednesday 20 November 19 04:01 GMT (UK)
Hi everyone, I've come across some details from Harry Hales' British Army Service Records. Can anyone confirm these please:-

1. He enlisted in 1898, around 18 years of age.
2. His occupation was that of a carpenter.
3. He initially served in the 4th Battalion of the Worcestershire Regiment, his rank was that of a Private.
4. His period of service whilst in this Corps was from 9th November 1897 - 8th June 1898.
5. His Regiment # was 4693.

I've had a closer look at Census information for 1881 & 1891 for a Harry Hales, both have a father named Frederick whose occupation was that of a jeweller. Both have an older brother named Frederick. The only major differences are:-

1. Frederick's wife's name - in 1881 it's Alice, & in 1891 it's Mary.
2. The Frederick Hales in the 1881 Census was born in Gloucestershire; the Frederick Hales in the 1891 Census was born in Warwickshire. So if these are two completely different people, I'll have trouble pinpointing which Harry is the one I'm researching for family history purposes.
3. There is a record transcription for a death in 1893 for a Frederick Hales in Birmingham, & this Frederick is buried at Witton Cemetery, which fits with what another ancestry website states about Harry Hales' father being deceased at the time of his marriage to Minnie Inchley.

Any further assistance on the above would be much appreciated.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: ShaunJ on Wednesday 20 November 19 06:55 GMT (UK)
Quote
I've come across some details from Harry Hales' British Army Service Records. Can anyone confirm these please:-

1. He enlisted in 1898, around 18 years of age.
2. His occupation was that of a carpenter.
3. He initially served in the 4th Battalion of the Worcestershire Regiment, his rank was that of a Private.
4. His period of service whilst in this Corps was from 9th November 1897 - 8th June 1898.
5. His Regiment # was 4693.

It seems unlikely that this is your Harry Hales.

The details you quote are from a militia record and, as noted on the first page of that file, he enlisted as a regular army soldier with the Royal Warwickshire Regiment in June 1898. His record with that regiment also survives (regimental number 5970)  and shows that he was  discharged in February 1899 as being unfit for further service, having suffered a double hernia. This Harry Hales had a brother Frederick (4758, 1 Batt, Royal Warwickshire Regiment).  Frederick's army record records that his mother was Alice, his younger brother Henry, and that he had an aunt, "Mrs Oldury" in America.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Wednesday 20 November 19 11:44 GMT (UK)
Frederick Hales (jeweller) married Alice Morris 1874. 2 children Frederick b. 1876 & Henry b. 1879.
The 2 families in 1881 & 91 are the same.
With regard to Ethel & Minnie's parentage unless you saw the letters you would believe they were Harry Hales' but Alice Rundle is saying they are Harry Rundles.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Thursday 21 November 19 04:02 GMT (UK)
Hi ShaunJ & jim1, thanks for replying. I've checked both images of Harry Hales' British Army service records with the Regiment #'s 4693 & 5970 & they appear to me to be the same person for the reasons below:-

1. He has the same occupation as "Carpenter" on both records.
2. Under "Description of Harry Hales on Enlistment" there is the mention of a distinctive mark, "H.T. Left Forearm", on both records. His general appearance on both records is similar as well, only putting on a slight amount of weight according to the 2nd record as the records are 7 months apart.
3. On the first page of his record for Regiment # 5970, he mentions that he's already enlisted, i.e., at questions 10 & 11, where he writes "Yes 4th Btn Worcestershire Regiment....in which I am still serving".

Thankfully, the records for Regiment #5970 state the details of his older brother Frederick's service.

Thanks jim1 for further details of Harry Hales' parents marriage. Perhaps "Mary" was Harry's mother's middle name, therefore the slight difference in the 1881/1891 Census information.

Yes I suppose evidence of the letters from Alice Rundle to the British Army really does change things. It will make for interesting family discussions in the future.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Thursday 21 November 19 11:06 GMT (UK)
My Grandad was in 1/RWR 1892-04 so probably knew Frederick.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Friday 22 November 19 02:38 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, small world sometimes isn't it! It would be lovely to have a crystal ball or a window into the past to see what their lives were really like back then. The internet is the closest thing we have these days.

So we now know that Harry Hales most likely didn't re-enlist in the British Army due to injury early 1899. His occupation is that of a carpenter so he has that trade for future employment. His father Frederick has passed away about 6 years earlier, he ends up boarding with the Inchley family in the early 1900's where he's met Minnie Inchley, they have an illegitimate child Harry, in 1903, & get married in 1904. They have 2 more children, Frederick b. 1906 & Elsie b. 1909. Harry Rundle comes into Minnie's life not long after this, & 4 more children are the result of this relationship - Minnie,
Ethel, Stanley & Joseph, if Alice Rundle's letters hold the most truth about this complicated domestic situation.

I believe all the background information (which is what I like to call it) is interesting & essential, as it paints a fuller picture of what's happened to these family members & what their lives were like back then.

I'm having a look at different websites on Birmingham's history at the moment as well, e.g., the jewellery quarter, as that's where both Minnie Inchley's & Harry Hales' fathers most likely would've been employed, according to Census information at the time. As Harry Hales ended up boarding with the Inchley family, perhaps the families were known to each other, thanks to the jewellery trade.

Going back to one of your earlier posts, you mentioned that Martha Inchley married a George Pemberton in 1916. On one of the websites relating to the history of the jewellery quarter, it states that a Roger Pemberton was one of the founders of this trade in Birmingham, but this is going back to the mid-1500's, so might be a little hard to prove that George is a direct descendant of Roger Pemberton.

I'm still having trouble finding out details of Joseph Rundle's death (Harry Rundle's father) so any help with that would be much appreciated.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: ShaunJ on Friday 22 November 19 06:26 GMT (UK)
Quote
In 1901, Harry HALES is a Sergeant in the 6th Worcestershire Regiment and is boarding with the INCHLEY family in Balsall Heath.

How does that fit with the man who was discharged from the army in 1899 with a double hernia? It must surely be a different Harry Hales.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Friday 22 November 19 20:26 GMT (UK)
Joseph died 1917 under Rumble.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Saturday 23 November 19 05:26 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, thanks for the information regarding Joseph Rundle's death in 1917.

ShaunJ, if it can be found that Harry Hales DID re-enlist after recovery from the double hernia, & hence being promoted to Sergeant, maybe that's the only way to prove that it's the same person. The Harry Hales with regiments #'s 4693 & 5970 appear to me to be the same person due to several similarities on the service records.

If memory serves, Harry Hales is supposed to have a younger brother, George, born after 1880. It would be worthwhile trying to locate any military service records for him as well.

Regards  :)

Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 23 November 19 10:52 GMT (UK)
George was born 1887 but I can't find a birth registration for him.
For this reason I'm not entirely convinced that Alice(1881) & Mary(1891)
are the same person. George may have been registered under Mary's name
if they are different people & Frederick & Mary weren't married.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Tuesday 26 November 19 00:39 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, perhaps Alice Morris died some time after Harry Hales' birth in 1879, & Frederick met Mary & they had George in 1887, hence the difference between the 1881 & 1891 Census information. There is an 8 year age gap between Harry & George so that's a possibility.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 26 November 19 11:05 GMT (UK)
It's certainly a possibility that's what happened but I haven't found a death for Alice 1881-87.
Of course she may not have died but gone into an institution or just left the family or Alice & Mary are the same person.
After Frederick's death Mary may have married someone else & George is using his surname.
The possibilities are endless.
There is a George Henry Hales birth in B'ham 1888 mmn Harris.
I can't find a Hales/Harris marriage & I can't see them in 1891.
I'm wondering if Harris is a mistranscription of Morris.
There's also a James b. 1886 same mmn.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Monday 02 December 19 05:10 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1 (& everyone else who has assisted me with my Rundle/Hales/Inchley family research), I haven't disappeared completely yet! I've just been busy with a few other things, plus keeping on top of where these bushfires are as they're not over yet unfortunately. Hip hip hooray we had some heavy rain recently & blue skies where I live for the first time in weeks. I almost forgot what blue sky looked like .... :'(

I've just spent a little while today at my local library looking up some of the details of the Inchley family members' marriages, so I'll keep checking on those. I'm still hopeful that I can fill in some gaps in all of this research, so any further assistance is greatly appreciated.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Monday 09 December 19 05:33 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, I've been looking into details of the Inchley family members' marriages & earlier in this thread, you mentioned that Minnie Inchley's brother Arthur was in the Royal Engineers Regiment during WW1. Do you know what his regiment number is at all? Also, do you know if he & Alice Flowers had any children?

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Monday 09 December 19 11:19 GMT (UK)
Arthur was first in the  6th. R. Warwicks. Regt. no. 3120.
He transferred into the R.E. (Feb. 1917) no. 503998.
He was then renumbered as WR/177316.
WR = Waterways & Railways.
He was in 32 Railway Coy. R.E.
Children:
1912 (start of year) Leonard Gordon
1912 (end of year) Gertrude Phyllis
1914 Leslie G
1916 Victor T
1920 Frederick G
1925 Denis E (d. 1953)
1930 female
The last one may still be living.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Monday 16 December 19 03:14 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, thanks for those details on Arthur Inchley, & his children with Alice Flowers.

PART A: Would you be able to confirm the following details for William Hill, Amy Inchley's husband:-

1. His marriage to Amy Inchley was in 1902 in Bordesley, Birmingham, UK.
2. He enlisted in 1894 in the 4th Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment at nearly 19 years old, regiment # 4231.
3. He enlisted in 1915 in the 96th Battalion of the Training Reserve Regiment, aged 39 years, regiment # 7/19192.
4. Do you know if William & Amy had any children/their names/years of birth?

PART B:Would you also be able to confirm the following details for Alfred Checketts, Nellie Inchley's husband:-

1. Alfred's occupation was that of a toolmaker.
2. Alfred & Nellie had 5 children together, 4 of whom were still alive at the time of the 1911 Census. Their names were Lilly, born 1902; Nellie born 1903; Jessie born 1907; Alfred born 1910. I've no details of who the 5th child was i.e., name, year of birth, year of death, etc.

Regards  :)


Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Monday 16 December 19 03:43 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, just to confirm Minnie Inchley's brother William Inchley married Ruby Ingram in 1914, & according to the 1939 Register, he had Martha & George Pemberton's daughter Olive living with them at this time. Are the names of William & Ruby's children Francis (son) & Iris (daughter), who were also living with them at the time of the 1939 Register?

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 17 December 19 22:30 GMT (UK)
All of the above is correct.
The 5th. child was Winifred Doris born & died 1904.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Wednesday 18 December 19 03:43 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, thanks for that information. Are you able to confirm who William & Amy Hill's (nee Inchley) children were/when they were born, etc.?

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Wednesday 18 December 19 11:49 GMT (UK)
There were no children to this couple.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Tuesday 31 December 19 04:26 GMT (UK)
Happy (belated) Christmas everyone from "down under" & best wishes for a very happy New Year! Where I live, we had a bit of a reprieve weather-wise over the Christmas break with some lovely cooler days & rain as well. Back to warmer weather again now....

Let's all hope 2020 is a great year for everyone!

Cheers  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Tuesday 28 January 20 04:53 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, now that Christmas & the New Year holiday period is over, I've started looking into family history again & have recently received some information that, if you are able to assist in any way, may help determine the details surrounding Harry Hales' death.

My mother was speaking to one of her sisters recently, who said her research discovered that Harry Hales was returning to the United Kingdom on a WW1 Repatriation Ship which subsequently was bombed crossing the English Channel. There is some paperwork/emails that my mother's sister will be forwarding to me regarding this information some time in the future. I'm unsure of the actual year this occurred, but a flexible date range would be the start of WW1 to the end of WW1, 1914 - 1919. I'm also unsure of the name of this particular ship at this time, as there appears to be around 10 - 15 (possibly more) WW1 hospital ships in service. The website https://www.qaranc.co.uk/hospitalships.php has more information on all of this.

If there is any way you could provide assistance with some more details regarding this, it would be very much appreciated.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 28 January 20 21:14 GMT (UK)
There is a Henry Hales in the Register of soldiers effects. He was 22340 Sapper R. Engineers.
It states his death was officially accepted as on or since 17/11/15 following the sinking of the Hospital Ship Anglia.
Looks promising.
The only anomaly is that his gratuity goes to his father Henry rather than wife & children.
If memory serves I believed at the time that they had split around 1911/12 so may have made a clean break.
We'll have to wait for the newspaper clippings.
Later: it doesn't look like it's him. This Henry/Harry Hales was born in Kent & enlisted in London.
I say this advisedly as we don't really know anything about him. He doesn't seem to appear in B'ham except as a boarder in 1901 with the Inchleys.
I believe you were advised earlier to get their marriage cert.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Wednesday 29 January 20 02:07 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1, thanks for that information. My aunt should be sending me copies of the paperwork she has (via my mother), which most likely will include copies of birth, marriage, death certificates, etc., or at least whatever she has been able to discover herself. I think the paperwork will include various members of the Inchley, Rundle &/or Hales family, but I'll just have to wait until I receive that information from her to see for myself.

The discussions I've had with my mother recently show that her family are pretty adamant that the sisters, Minnie & Ethel Hales, were the daughters of Harry Hales & Minnie Inchley, not Harry Rundle & Minnie Inchley. I'm assuming that my aunt's paperwork will be the only way to prove this.

If memory serves, Harry Hales' father's name was Frederick, not Henry, who was already deceased by the time Harry married Minnie Inchley in 1904 in Birmingham. So as you say, it may not be the Harry Hales I've been looking for.

I'll look up information on HMHS Anglia & see what I can find out about her sinking.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Wednesday 29 January 20 11:25 GMT (UK)
In her letter dated May 1915 Alice Rundle states that her husband had children with Minnie Inchley.
They can only be Minnie & Ethel.
Mothers can lie on birth certs. particularly during wartime but there's no reason for Alice to lie about it.
Alice & Harry Rundle had children regularly over a 10 year period but none after 1910.
They don't appear in the 1911 census which leads me to believe they had separated by 1911/12 & Harry was now seeing Minnie Inchley which resulted in the 2 births.
I've had a look for the Henry Hales who died at sea & he was born in 1893 & is at home with his parents in 1911 so you can rule him out as yours.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Sunday 09 August 20 20:14 BST (UK)
Well hello!
I've just come across this chat & have followed the thread: very interesting.
I'm in Walsall in the West Midlands, & Harry Rundle is my great-grandfather!
His daughter Edith (1906-2000) is my maternal grandmother.
I've been up the same dead-ends & followed the same wrong leads, and am also unsure as to which children Harry fathered other than Edith & her 5 siblings.
Edith told me a little about her parents as did my mother who knew them both.
I didn't previously know what became of Harry & Minnie's children or even who they were.
All I really knew was gleaned from Alice Maud's letters & recently finding out more about Minnie.
I'd like to contribute to the chat from the perspective of Harry & Alice Maud's family.
Best wishes.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Monday 10 August 20 11:04 BST (UK)
Hello & welcome
If you've read it all you will know it gets complicated but
Harry & Alice's children should be less of a challenge.
Piglet hasn't been on here since Feb. but hopefully she will get
the link & get back.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Tuesday 11 August 20 13:39 BST (UK)
Thanks, jim1.
Harry did reconnect with his original family. In 1926/7 he appears on the electoral register at Bacchus Rd, which ties in with my Mom's sister saying that he tried to make things up with Alice Maud.
Then about the time my Gran gave birth to my uncle Tony in Kingstanding in 1939, he appeared on the family's doorstep. My Gran apparently didn't recognise him at first, & asked him for proof that he was her father as she hadn't seen him for several years. He continued to live with my Gran & her family, even when they moved to Wood Green Rd (an odd move I've always thought as it was nearer the carnage of the Birmingham Blitz). My Gran appears to have looked after him well, though his health was supposedly declining when he first came to live with them. He seems to have had a stomach complaint whereby he had to use a kind of abdominal aid in his later years. His death cert mentions toxic myocarditis, cystitis, pyelitis & recent suprapubic cystotomy!
More to come!
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Thursday 13 August 20 18:03 BST (UK)
Well, well, well
I lived in Wood Green Rd.
My Grandparents moved there in 1905 & my parents moved in with them in 1950.
They would have known them as it was a small cul-de-sac.
What was their family names?
I saw the Bacchus Rd. Harry but I think I lost track of him by 1939 for some reason.
Update:
OK I can see now it was Pittaway, it's coming back slowly.
She lived at no. 8 my Grandparents lived at 33.
I also remember Harry being in lodgings in 1939 so couldn't have been with Edith very long
before he died.
Makes me wonder how he knew where she lived.
She may not have seen him since he joined the Army.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Thursday 13 August 20 21:05 BST (UK)
Small world, jim1!
My first home was in Crabtree Rd, Brookfields, not far away.
My Pittaways were at Wood Green Rd, 1941-45. The address appears on Harry's death cert. on which my Gran is the informant. I think my Mom would have said that her Grandad was with them long enough!
Looking at what you have, I now see that I've made an error & that the Harry Rundle at Bacchus Rd in 1926/7 was my gt-uncle Harry who I knew served in the army, though I didn't know it was The South Wales Borderers (thanks for that). However, on the 1920 electoral register Alice Maud is at 3/12 & Harry Rundle is at 3 back 14, so perhaps it was him trying to heal the rift. My Mom described to me this little cluster of homes; it's not surprising the actual addresses sometimes became confused.
Think I've just found out that Harry Hales was registered at his birth as Maurice Henry Hale, muddying the water further. Now Stanley's 2nd name was Maurice.....By way of an apology, please see attached photos.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Thursday 13 August 20 21:11 BST (UK)
if memory serves Alice was the other side of B'ham in 1920 in Winson Green.
Take it back you're right. Getting up to speed again.
Harry Rundle is registered at this address & also registered as Harry Hales living with Minnie
the other side of B'ham.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Thursday 13 August 20 21:22 BST (UK)
I put this up on p. 5
I think Alice has given the 3/12 Bacchus Rd. address for Harry on the AV list
Notice they both have the same Army number & unit.
but I don't believe he ever lived there.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Friday 14 August 20 20:19 BST (UK)
You may not know, jim1, that Harry was also an entertainer & is said to have had a fine singing voice. My Gran said that he used to work as a pearly king & had an offer to work in the States (I have no record of him going there, nor to Canada for that matter). My Mom could remember the top hat & cane among Harry's personal effects & his rendition of 'My Old Duch' (Duchess of Fife - wife - a bit ironic really). She also recalled his irascibility, particularly with noisy children (now there's a surprise!), & love of fish & seafood. All this whilst sheltering from the Luftwaffe!
Balsall Heath Local History Society have been running a project about Childrenís Emigration Homes. They are aware of the Hales & Rundle children who left this country and were shocked to see that they were sent to different continents. They are referred to in their publication. See
http://balsallheathhistory.co.uk/index.php/the-lost-children-a-project-about-the-childrens-emigration-homes/
Cheers!
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Friday 14 August 20 20:36 BST (UK)
I was always a bit sceptical about the children being put into a home
but it must be true if they have records of them.
I didn't know the Hales children were sent there as well.
I thought I'd documented the Hales children so I'll have to take another
look at that.
I can't see anything in your link about them.
Edit:
Looking at the pack pages I did find the 2 oldest Rundle girls in Canada.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Sunday 16 August 20 15:47 BST (UK)
The Rumble(s)/al(l)s family worked in the Luton hat industry & moved to Birmingham between 1881 & 1891.
The story in the family is that Harry changed his name from Rumble to Rundle in his army days. He had an older brother named Edwin (another one that 'disappears') who, it was said, was mistakenly enlisted as Rundle, & that on enlisting himself Harry had to use Rundle to be in the same regiment. This doesn't quite hold water; both surnames continued to be used.
Even on his death cert there's Henry Rumble, otherwise Rundle, & there are GRO death entries for him in both names!
Harry's buried in an unmarked grave at Brandwood End Cemetery, unlike his presumed son Stanley & his sister Ellen Jane (Nelley) Bennett & her husband who were in the millinery business. His brother Alfred stayed with the surname Rumble; one of his 2 sons had a paralysed right arm from birth.
Minnie Hales was buried in July 1923 at Yardley Cemetery. Reckon Harry Hales, or whatever his name was, was abducted by aliens!
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 16 August 20 18:22 BST (UK)
I agree about the alien abduction, as they say when you rule
out the improbable the impossible must be true.
Going back to the daughters I now recall looking at a couple of
documents on the Canada Archive where one is mentioned being sent
to a family but was returned after about a year as being unsatisfactory
& being sent elsewhere. This was in response to a letter from an aunt
asking after her. I believe she married out there. Can't remember the details.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Tuesday 18 August 20 20:27 BST (UK)
Alice Maud had a tough time bringing up 5 children by herself. My Gran recalled pawning wet washing. My Gran was apparently sent to live with Harry & co. at Fulham Rd at one stage because Alice Maud couldn't cope. Alice Maud was fondly remembered by the family. She virtually brought up my Mom & sister; my Grandad usually had quite menial jobs & my Gran went out to work. Alice Maud died of myocardial degeneration & chronic bronchitis & is buried in an unmarked grave with Thomas White at Handsworth Cemetery.
Given the evidence we have, I think only Stanley (though even he's got one of Harry Hales' names!) & Joseph look like children of Harry Rundle, so perhaps Alice Maud was mistaken in thinking he already had 2 children with Minnie Hales by 1915. Even birth certs might not tell the true story; Piglet seemed to be on the verge of something but seems to have disappeared.
Alice Maud had surnames Le Boutillier/Butler/Rumble(s)/Rundle/White, but her paternal gt-grandfather was simply a Thomas Butler from Wolverhampton who just happened to be stationed in Jersey whilst serving in the army during the Napoleonic Wars!
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 18 August 20 21:11 BST (UK)
Have to disagree, Alice in her letter dated 1915 says Harry (Rundle) had 2 children by Minnie who can only be Minnie (1912) & Ethel (1914) along with Stanley & Joseph they all had Hales as a surname on their birth certs. with as you say Stanley having the Middle name Rundle.
You can send Piglet a personal message as she may have unsubscribed from this topic & won't get a link.
Not sure about the Napoleonic wars bit as that ended at Waterloo in 1815.
OK I see you refer to her GGGrandfather.
I put this up earlier:
Quote
Changing the subject for a minute the 1899 marriage witness as I mentioned was an F.A. Mallett.
I believe this is Alice's sister.
1881 Jersey:
Alfred John Le Boutillier 34
Louisa Ellen Le Boutillier 29
Alfred Charles Le Boutillier 11
Louisa Jane Le Boutillier 10
Florence Alice Le Boutillier 8
Edward Francis Le Boutillier 6
Sydney Touzall Le Boutillier 3
Alice Maud Le Boutillier 2
All born Jersey.
In 1901 Florence is with her husband  Edward Mallett in Weymouth & her pob is Jersey.

Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Wednesday 19 August 20 11:44 BST (UK)
Thomas Butler married in Jersey in 1799. His son Francis morphed into Francois Le Boutillier & one of his sons was Alfred John. Alice Maud was one of Alfred's 17 children! You're right abt Mallett; Edward George Mallett was the other half of Florence Alice Le Boutillier; never have found a marriage.
Have sent a PM to Piglet.
Have you amongst the military records you have access to anything on Harry's brother, Edwin Rumble(s)/Rundle? He married in Brum in Dec. 1893, gunner in the R.A. at Golden Hill Fort, I.O.W., but his spouse remarries in Nov. 1897.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Wednesday 19 August 20 12:07 BST (UK)
I can see Edwin's marriage but can't place him in this family, there is an Edward is this him?
On saying that I can't see a service record for him under either name.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Wednesday 19 August 20 19:47 BST (UK)
Thanks for looking, jim1.
Edwin Rumble (b.1868, Luton) is similar to Harry Hales in that he's difficult to pin down & then does a disappearing act; they're probably carousing together somewhere & having a good laugh at us!
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Wednesday 19 August 20 20:17 BST (UK)
The nearest I can get to a death is Edward Rundle d. 1896 age 26.
Death registered in Portsea which was home to a large RGA garrison.
Age is a bit out but that's not unusual & he may have been posted there.
I also notice Anthony was born in Plymouth so in the right area.
That's if I'm looking at the right family.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Thursday 20 August 20 11:31 BST (UK)
You could be on to something there, jim1.
I'll follow it up. I've been doing this digging for abt 30 yrs now but still miss things.
I think it sometimes just takes another pair of eyes!
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Friday 21 August 20 18:50 BST (UK)
Hi Nodrog50 & welcome, I've sent you a reply to the personal message.

Can you please tell me how many children your maternal grandmother, Edith Ellen Marie Rundle, & her husband Henry Pittaway, had together? And you were saying one of them was your "Uncle Tony" - is this Anthony M Pittaway, born 28th August 1939? Can you confirm that Anthony married Gillian Dolman in 1964, & did he die in 1992?

Looking at what you have, I now see that I've made an error & that the Harry Rundle at Bacchus Rd in 1926/7 was my gt-uncle Harry who I knew served in the army, though I didn't know it was The South Wales Borderers (thanks for that).

If Edith Pittaway is definitely your maternal grandmother, then Harry Rundle is your great-grandfather, not great-uncle. What was the reason for this change?

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Friday 21 August 20 19:23 BST (UK)
Thanks for the reply; good to see you again, PIGLET392006.
I think we're 2nd cousins!
'Dids' & 'Harry' had 4 children, Betty (my mother), Sheila, Tony (yes, that's him) & Hazel, who's still with us.
I made an error with the Electoral register confusing our gt-grandfather with his son Henry Charles (always referred to in the family as 'Uncle Harry').
As you can see from my posts, I know quite a bit about Henry/Harry/Rumble(s)/Rundle thanks to my Gran & Mom. Unfortunately, not which of Minnie's children were his. I think my Gran may have known as she lived with that family for a while.
Regards.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Saturday 22 August 20 05:35 BST (UK)
Hi Nodrog50, so now I should be saying....welcome to the family!!

After I recently received an email telling me I had a personal message from someone (you!) in relation to Harry Rundle, I'm back on this thread for the first time since January this year. I'll have to refresh my memory by going over some of the previous messages, so please bear with me!

I started my research on RootsChat over 6 months ago & have found out some amazing information. Like yourself not really knowing anything about Minnie, I didn't know about the existence of Alice Maud or her children with Harry Rundle, or even the letters written by Alice to the British Army trying to locate her husband, or how Harry appeared to try to hide his relationship with Minnie from Alice, & so on. These particular details came as quite a shock to me when I first discovered them! I'm curious as to how Alice found out about Harry's affair with Minnie. The poor woman must've been devastated, & it's no wonder that they really couldn't patch things up.

You mentioned that you have an Aunt Hazel & that she's still alive, would she be able to remember anything? Even small details will help.

Did Harry Rundle try to get in touch with any of his other children, or was your grandmother the only one? Perhaps he didn't succeed in making amends with any of his other children, after his relationship with Minnie Hales ended with her death in 1923?

I'm very curious as to how & when Harry Rundle & Minnie Hales met, though being a sensitive subject within the family, I can imagine it wasn't easy to talk about. Do you have any information about them/their relationship? As you've read from this very long thread, after Minnie died, Harry put 4 of the children into Middlemore Children's Home - Minnie, Ethel, Stanley & Joseph. The 2 eldest, Frederick & Elsie, were perhaps too old to go into the home & have ended up elsewhere (i.e., army & domestic service). I'm still trying to research what happened to those two as well. Minnie & Ethel are the 2 children who ended up emigrating to Canada, Stanley joined the British Army after leaving Middlemore, & Joseph (my maternal grandfather) ended up in Australia. Ethel had written letters to my mother & some of her siblings over many years to keep in touch, although I'm not sure if my mother still has them as this was most likely around 30 years ago. According to my mother, apparently Minnie didn't want to keep in touch with her or her siblings for unknown reasons.

If you're curious, this is the link to my maternal grandfather's (Joseph John Rundle) NAA (National Archives of Australia) records:

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6480713

You can see the address on his attestation papers being the Fairbridge Farm School at Pinjarra, Western Australia & letters between the Australian Army & The Salvation Army Missing Persons Unit, trying to locate Joseph John Rundle for Ethel.

I'm sure as time goes on, there'll be more amazing details that can be uncovered!

I appreciate the photos of Harry Rundle & Alice Maud. Do you have any others of either them or other family members?

I'll be keeping in touch a little more regularly from now on!

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 22 August 20 11:20 BST (UK)
Although not needed any more I've watched this & thought it might be worth putting this up again.
You ask;
Quote
I'm very curious as to how & when Harry Rundle & Minnie Hales met
As you can see they all lived within the same few streets in S. B'ham.
Although Minnie & Harry Hales don't appear in 1911 I'm pretty sure they were still in
the same area maybe even the same street.If Harry Rundle was bit of a singer & entertainer
he may have frequented the local pubs & met that way.
By the same token it wouldn't have been that hard for Alice to find out what was going on.
Where there's a bit of scandal there's always neighbours prepared to gossip about it.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Saturday 22 August 20 16:37 BST (UK)
I certainly wouldn't say you're not needed anymore, jim1.
I've been thinking about when & where Harry Rundle & Minnie met as well. Harry performing locally is certainly feasible.
It looks to me as if Harry & Alice Maud were in Hockley when he re-enlisted in 1914, so he'd probably already met Minnie in Balsall Heath by then. However, that Ernest Rd. address where the Inchleys were in 1901 kept bugging me.  Then I recalled that Harry's mother, Jane, was living there, at least from 1919 to 1921. In 1901, her & Joseph are in Fernley Rd., Sparkhill, then in 1911 in Ladypool Rd., Balsall Heath, at their daughter's millinery shop. In 1901 & 1911, Harry's brother Alf & his family are in Thornhill Rd., Sparkhill. So even after moving to the other side of the city, Harry still had plenty of reasons to be in & around Balsall Heath/Sparkhill!
I too think Alice Maud probably got to hear about what Harry was up to via tittle-tattle. Perhaps she learnt about his 2 children with Minnie the same way; someone had seen Harry with Minnie & 2 young children and assumed they were his, thus adding a bit more juiciness to the gossip?
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 22 August 20 17:39 BST (UK)
Re-reading part of Alice's letter (May 1915) she says she found about Harry's infidelity
since joining the previous August & that Minnie was passing herself off as his wife with
2 children of his. So she seems quite specific in what she says & I can't see her just
passing on gossip to an authoritative figure such as a Lt. Col. without knowing the facts.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Sunday 23 August 20 13:40 BST (UK)
Hazel was born 4 years after Harry Rundle passed away, so has little in the way of recollections.
I'm not aware of Harry contacting any of his other children; my Gran seemed to have a soft spot for him. It's odd how she was chosen to go & live with with Harry & Minnie when Alice Maud was struggling. Some of the children apparently lived for a while with their paternal grandparents in Ernest Rd. as well.
So Stanley was put in a Children's Home too? I thought he may have been taken in by that member of the Inchley family who gave the additional info when he died.
I've followed the thread of the conversation for the last few weeks (inc.Genealogy.com) and looked at Joseph Rundle's military records (inc. the photos!). Very interesting.
Re. photos, those are the only ones of Harry & Alice Maud that I know of; on the reverse are 'Harry Rundle' then in someone else's writing 'my granddad', & 'Gran Rundle' then 'Alice Maud Le Boutillier, born July 23rd 1879, St. Helier, Jersey.' I'm unsure as to their provenance.
Attached is a group photo from a Rundle wedding, Uncle Harry's younger daughter Mary Rose to Frank William Room, 22nd March 1952, St. John's, Ladywood, B'ham. The Rundles are on the right hand side of the photo. The rather fed-up little boy giving his mother a hard time is me next to my Gran with Hazel in front of us.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Sunday 23 August 20 21:12 BST (UK)
Won't be around for a few days. We're staying with our daughter & her family; they live (would you believe?) in Balsall Heath! She's a community worker & almost got involved in Balsall Heath Local History Society's 'The Lost Children' project as she knows Val Hart. Like me, our daughter didn't know we had a family connection....
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Monday 24 August 20 10:46 BST (UK)
Take the map & do a trip down memory lane.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Monday 24 August 20 17:21 BST (UK)
Hi Nodrog50,

Thank you for the group photo. From your description I'm assuming you're the little boy being held by your grandmother, Edith (the lady with what looks like a black handbag) & Hazel is the little girl with a dark-coloured coat standing slightly in front of your grandmother. Is your mother the lady to the left of you? Fairly tall lady, curly hair, black gloves? The elderly man in the dark suit, with his hands crossed in front of him, standing next to one of the bridesmaids - is that the bride's father, Henry Charles Rundle? It's a lovely photo.

You mentioned Alice Maud sent Edith to live with her father & Minnie Hales at one stage. This would've enabled her to spend time with her half-brothers & half-sisters. Are there any recollections within the family of Edith's time with them? Or if any other siblings of Edith lived with their father & Minnie for a period of time? When Minnie died in 1923, & some of the children were placed in Middlemore home, it must've been quite sad for Edith as she would've gotten to know her "other family" quite well by then. Are there any recollections within the family of Edith or any of her siblings keeping in touch with Harry & Minnie's children, particularly as they were eventually separated & sent to other parts of the world?

Have a nice stay with your daughter & family, & yes, a trip down memory lane would be quite an eye-opener!

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Sunday 30 August 20 09:51 BST (UK)
Back from Balsall Heath but without a computer at the moment. Will be with you asap. Thinking abt spending a bit of money on this research. Best wishes.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Monday 31 August 20 15:17 BST (UK)
Hello again.
I've noted your personal message & will sort something, though it could be a while yet. I'll also reply to your queries once I no longer have to do everything on this phone!
I've just read an article abt Father Hudson Homes (the RC equivalent of Middlemore) & how they tried to contact family to ask whether anyone could take a child in before sending him abroad. I wonder whether Middlemore did this & just Stanley was taken to.
New computer on order!
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Wednesday 09 September 20 12:03 BST (UK)
Apologies for the hiatus.
Balsall Heath was a deprived area 100 years ago & it still is!
Re. the wedding photo, Iím in the arms of my Mom & my Gran is on the right of her with Hazel in front of both. It made me smile when you surmised my Mom was fairly tall; she was just over 5ft! I think thatís Uncle Les front right in the photo with David Rundle, Uncle Bertís son who I corresponded with for a while, at his right shoulder. Thatís Henry Charles Rundle in the middle with presumably Aunt Clara beside him; I only recall her in her later years but sheís fondly remembered.
I didnít see that much of my Momís family as I was growing up, & when my Mom & I did visit the men were usually out at work. My Dad was one of a large family of Smiths in Hockley & I was pretty much brought up surrounded by that family.
Mention of my Gran going to live with Harry & Minnie and some of the other children temporarily living with their paternal grandparents almost certainly stems from snippets that my Gran dropped out over 20 years ago; she was usually not that keen on raking over the past, not surprising really. Harryís Ďotherí family appears to have been a grey area &, of course, most of my Gran & my Momís generation have now passed on.
I am in occasional contact with Nora, Uncle Lesís eldest child, but she is now in her 80ís & I donít recall her adding to the narrative after Iíd sent her copies of Alice Maudís letters.
Any progress with your family?
I donít think Iíve put up Harryís death cert.
Good to be back!
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Wednesday 14 October 20 16:24 BST (UK)
Essential information about Minnie that I've just accessed!
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Wednesday 14 October 20 18:03 BST (UK)
The marriage has come up before.
This is him in 1891:
RG12; Piece: 2367; Folio: 75; Page: 14
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Thursday 15 October 20 14:39 BST (UK)
I notice his birth is registered as Maurice Henry Hale (without the S).
His mother being Alice Morris.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Thursday 15 October 20 21:30 BST (UK)
I noted that as well, Jim.
I still havenít located a census entry after 1901 or a death/burial entry for him given any of these variations.
I assume Harry Rundle provided the information on Minnieís death cert. This infers that Harry Hales is deceased; I wonder whether this was actually the case. I was surprised at the detail he gave about Harry Hales; he seems to have known a fair bit about him. I thought Harry Rundleís take on his counterpart would be more offhand & less detailed.
For once I felt a bit sorry for my great-grandfather, and then thereís Minnie with the pain of gallstones coupled with TB and 5 children aged 2-14.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Thursday 15 October 20 22:22 BST (UK)
I thought the same about Harry's knowledge about Harry Hales but with all
the deception that went on it's difficult to know if any of it is true.
I haven't been able to find a death either.
Maybe he moved out of the County or even the Country.
Harry's mother Alice moved out in the 1880's & left father Frederick with the 2 kids, Fred Jr. & Harry.
He took up with a Mary Roe & had a son George in 1887.
Fred Sr. died in 1893 & Fred Jr. joined the R.Warwicks in 1896.
Mother Alice is in lodgings in 1901 & living with her sister & B in L in 1911.
George is in lodgings in 1911.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Friday 16 October 20 14:21 BST (UK)
I agree with you, Jim; the continual deceit leads us to question anything thatís said or done.
Also about Harry Halesí final destination; emigration is a definite possibility.
Thanks for the further info on the Hales family. I wasnít familiar with all of that.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Saturday 17 October 20 11:56 BST (UK)
Having followed up your links to Alice Hale(s) on the 1901 & 1911 censuses, Jim, I noticed thereís also, in Outgoing Passenger Lists, a 67 year old Miss Alice Hale, widow, leaving Liverpool bound for Halifax on 12th June 1920. Is this the same person, going to Canada to be with other family members, Frederick(?) or even Harry?
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 17 October 20 12:23 BST (UK)
Looks quite possible. She only had 2 sons Fred & Harry.
There'a also a death in 1937 for an Alice Hale aged 84 which also could be her.
Unfortunately there are 2 Alice Hales b. c. 1853/4 in B'ham.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: st cronos on Monday 29 March 21 09:17 BST (UK)
Hello,

Minnie Eva Inchley is the great aunt of my wife. Recently we started to look at this part of the family tree with great fascination and the mystery of Harry Rundle/Hales. I hope to have more to add on this person/s soon. In the mean time I read about the letters from Alice Maud Rundle to the Army dated 1915-1919.

Question: Are these letters available in the public domain, or are they private?

It would be a great help if these letters could be viewed in our quest.

Thankyou
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Needles on Monday 29 March 21 14:10 BST (UK)
I'm new to rootschat having only just discovered your posts today. My interest is in Harry Rundle and Minnie Eva Hales nee Inchley who are the parents of Joseph John Rundle born at 2 Nora Avenue, Fulham Road, Sparkhill Birmingham England on 17 June 1921 and Stanley Maurice Rundle Hales, also born at 2 Nora Avenue, on 9 January 1917. Joseph came to Australia in 1934 at the tender age of 12 as a child migrant under the British Government's "Child Emigration Society" scheme. He was brought out by the Fairbridge Society and sent to the Fairbridge Farm School at Pinjarra in Western Australia where he spent the next four years being schooled and trained in all aspects of farming and agriculture in general. He left the school when he turned 15 and took up employment at a number of very large cattle and sheep stations throughout Western Australia over the ensuring years until the outbreak of WW2 when he enlisted in the Aust. armed forces in 1942. However, he never got to see active service due to medical problems and was discharged in 1945. He married in November 1942 to Nell Swinbourne, daughter of John Foster Swinbourne and Grace Dodds Paterson and went on to have seven children - four girls and three boys. He married again in 1965 and had two more children - a boy and girl. He died on 15 February 1984 from chronic renal failure and is buried in the general cemetery at Casino NSW.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 30 March 21 11:55 BST (UK)
Hello both & welcome.
The letters are in Harry Rundle's service record which is on Ancestry.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: st cronos on Friday 02 April 21 12:58 BST (UK)
Hello

Many thanks for the tip, and i now have the letters of Alice Maud. Good insight as to what's happening to her.

Also on Ancestry and Fold3, are Harry's WWI medal entitlement card and his enlistment on 6 Jan 1893 in the South Staffs Regiment no 99871. Occupation listed as Tram cleaner Fathers address 4  Highgate Rd Camphill Birmingham. He has 16 years service until he leaves on the 5 Jan 1909.

It seems there is a Freudian slip on the attestation as its under the name Harry Rundle, but signed Harry Rumble.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Monday 03 May 21 10:43 BST (UK)
No, not a Freudian slip. My great-grandfather was born Henry Rumble in Luton in 1876 and his death certificate in 1941 gives him as Henry Rumble otherwise Rundle. Most of the family subsequently adopted the latter name. This anomaly may have initially occurred during his army days but, like some other things about him, it's far from clear!
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Monday 03 May 21 11:04 BST (UK)
From #4.
Quote
A quick recap seems to be: born 1876 to Joseph & Jane Rundle/Rumble.
Married Nov. 1899 Weymouth R.O.
Moved to B'ham by 1902.
Had children up to 1910.
Career:
1) Staffs. Regt. (joined at 16 according to letter).
2) R.A. (time served).
3) RGA(SR) from 1914-17 & re-enlisted 1917 (probably under the new law (1916) re. Territorial & Reservists).
Alice hasn't heard from him pretty much from the time he went overseas in 1917.
Quote
She did however know he had been in the UK & had visited B'ham but not to see her & their children
but to see another woman who he had children with also.
Family continued to live at 3/12 or 3/14 Bacchus Rd. at least until 1931.
Harry doesn't appear to be with them after 1920.
Harry living in Fulham Rd. Sparkhill in 1927.
Living in Aubrey Rd. Sparkbrook 1939.
He died at his daughter's home which was the same road I was born in strangely enough.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Saturday 29 May 21 10:48 BST (UK)
Itís been suggested that Harry Hales died in the sinking of the hospital ship ďAngliaĒ in 1915. Sapper Henry Hales, 22340, Second Army H.Q. Signal Coy. Royal Engineers, drowned at sea (from H.S.ďAngliaĒ), 17th Nov. 1915. There is a memorial to many of those who lost their lives then at the Hollybrook Memorial, Southampton, on which he appears. However, this Henry Hales appears to have been born in Erith, Kent, & enlisted in London. There is a Henry Hales birth registered in 1893, Dartford reg. district. The 1911 census shows he was born in Erith. So no further on with what became of Harry Hales (still no evidence of him being in the forces in WW1) & an extra question as to how this casualty was thought to be him!
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 29 May 21 13:33 BST (UK)
I believe there was some prior research done by relatives
of the poster & they arrived at this conclusion.
I did look at him at the time & discounted him.
I don't think he was around after about 1910/11 as there
were no more children & Minnie had her first child by Harry Rundle in 1912.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Missgalaxy on Tuesday 08 June 21 03:04 BST (UK)
Hello. Hope you all are doing well! I just stumbled upon this thread and found it really interesting. My paternal great grandmother was Nellie L Rundle and I had no idea that her father had such a life. I have done DNA ancestry testing and have a Spinney in my DNA matches. It looks like that one of Minnie's daughters that married a Spinney in Canada was the daughter of Harry Rundle and not Hale...unless there are any other Spinney's in the family that anyone has found? I could be completely wrong but I'm pretty sure that's the connection. Looking forward to learning more!
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Tuesday 22 June 21 14:47 BST (UK)
Well that's thrown a spanner in the works!
Ethel Mary Hales, b.26th. Dec. 1913, married a Gilbert Spinney.
I've been corresponding with one of Joseph John Rundle's daughters in Australia and I thought we were gradually sorting things out; well as much as you can with such elusive characters!
I remember 'Aunt Nell' quite well from our visits to my Gran.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 22 June 21 16:00 BST (UK)
I believe it was Ethel who made enquiries in Australia & Canada
regarding her younger siblings.
B'ham library hold the Middlemore Homes records which will tell you
the circumstances of the children of Harry Rundle being placed there.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Tuesday 22 June 21 16:44 BST (UK)
I hope to get there some time, jim1, when things start getting back to normal. I forgot to mention that the 67 year old Miss Alice Hale, widow, leaving Liverpool bound for Halifax on 12th. June 1920 wasnít relevant; she was from North Shields!
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 22 June 21 17:34 BST (UK)
Alice never left B'ham, lived in the North part of the city while Harry lived in the South.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Wednesday 06 October 21 19:47 BST (UK)
Having accessed Birmingham Archives, I can confirm that Minnie, Ethel & Stanley were accepted by the Middlemore Home on 27th. Aug. 1924. Minnie & Ethel went to Canada, but Stanley was returned to his father, probably because the British Govt. in 1925 apparently decided to restrict this migration to those aged 14 & over and the Homes in Bíham were not set up for the long-term care of children.
Joseph was accepted into the Home on 18th. Jan. 1930 and was subsequently sent to Australia. Stanley was re-admitted on 15th. Sept. 1930, but was again returned to his father on the grounds that he had a heart condition and was unsuitable for emigration.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Thursday 07 October 21 09:21 BST (UK)
Hi to all, how is everyone coping with this dreadful pandemic? Getting my 2nd vaccination next weekend, hope you have all had yours. Wearing masks seems second nature almost, however, it's the added anxiety surrounding the whole virus situation I can't seem to cope with very well. Whenever "normal living" is going to be upon us again, I suppose that's all we can hope and pray for, for now.

I will slowly be rejoining this complicated thread of family history from this point onwards (hopefully!) My apologies for not appearing all that often since last year.

My repeated attempts at trying to get that special family history paperwork sent to me seemed to have been to no avail, so we will all just try to fill in the gaps as best as possible. Until I come up with another way to get all that extra information of course!

Regards, & I hope you are all not stressing out too much about the virus!  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Thursday 07 October 21 09:32 BST (UK)
Hi Nodrog50,

In regards to you accessing the Birmingham Archives, you mention that Joseph Rundle was not admitted into the Middlemore Home until 1930, almost 9 years after he was born. Was he living with his father Harry the whole time, up until 1930, after his mother Minnie died? I was under the impression that Joseph was put into the home not long after his mother died in 1923, along with his older siblings. So this bit of information is quite interesting. Are there any other details from the Archives that were available?

As I've been away from this thread for quite some time, I'll have to refresh my memory with everything again.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Thursday 07 October 21 12:48 BST (UK)
Hello again, Piglet 392006.
Iíve attached the relevant admissions which should make things clearer.
The aim of the Homes was to prepare children for migration; they wouldnít have taken in an infant.
Committee minutes add re. Joseph, ĎBoy left in care of neighboursí.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Friday 08 October 21 10:30 BST (UK)
Interesting to notice he says he was co-habiting with Minnie for 14 years.
As she died in 1923 means he was "seeing" her from 1909 while still living with Alice.
All of the children born after that would be his irrespective of the surnames.
A bit rich him saying that it was Alice that had misconducted herself when
really it was him.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Friday 08 October 21 11:09 BST (UK)
Hi Nodrog50,

Thank you for posting those admission papers from Middlemore Homes, they're very interesting indeed.

"Father & mother cohabited together for 14 years" - which means Minnie Hales and Harry Rundle really did meet each other earlier than I expected, around 1910. This is in line with what jim1 believes as well. This also adds further to the possibility that Minnie Edith Hales b.1912 and Ethel Mary Hales b.1913 were Harry Rundle's children, not the children of the ever-elusive Harry Hales.

"Father a married man but wife misconducted herself" - I wonder what this could mean! How did Alice do wrong by him? Is there any knowledge that Harry Rundle was a religious man?

"Boy left in care of neighbours" -  I despair for my grandfather's life sometimes. He didn't really get to have much of a normal family life at all.

I'm getting the impression from these admission papers that after Minnie Hales died in 1923, Harry Rundle was perhaps trying his best to look after both Stanley and Joseph, made all the more difficult by being in and out of employment. Perhaps the neighbours stepping in to assist when and where they could, as Harry might not have been in good favour with his own family nor Minnie's to be able to ask for their help.

And also during this time period, Harry Rundle tries to re-establish his relationship with Alice, or at least tries to do the same with his and Alice's children, namely Edith.

I'm also getting the unfortunate impression that Harry Rundle blamed Alice for whatever wrongdoing she supposedly committed during their marriage, that caused him to end up in a relationship with Minnie Hales in the first place.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Friday 08 October 21 14:11 BST (UK)
Of course, we have to add to the mix the fact that Harry Rundle & the truth were strange bedfellows. Note the information given on the consent form, then this from the Middlemore HQ:-ĒMr. Rundle promised to pay 5/- a week towards the cost of their maintenance, as he was earning good money in regular work. He paid little, and told Mr. Jackson, and later myself that he was unemployed. I discovered he had never ceased to work, and when I taxed him on the subject he denied all liability, saying Minnie and Ethel were not his children, but the children of Mrs. Hales, with whom he was cohabiting. I am of the opinion that the man is not straight forward.Ē
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Saturday 06 November 21 06:22 GMT (UK)
Hi everyone, I've just added myself to "Family Links" under the "Database For Special Interest Groups (DSFIG) - British Home Children" in the RootsChat Reference Library. This is for my great-aunt, Ethel M Hales, ID # 8475.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Saturday 06 November 21 07:22 GMT (UK)
Hi everyone, just posting information about Ethel Mary Hales from www.findagrave.com. It also shows a photo of her gravesite-

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/211686929/ethel-mary-spinney

It's worth noting that the memorial information states that "she was a daughter of the late Harry and Minnie (Inchley) Hales." (not Harry Rundle), and that her sister Minnie (who emigrated to Canada the year before Ethel, in 1926) was still alive.

Below are links to the "British Home Child Information Sheets" from the Home Children Canada/British Home Children Registry for both Ethel Hales and Minnie Hales:-

http://www.britishhomechildrenregistry.com/Person/bhcInfo/19689

http://www.britishhomechildrenregistry.com/Person/bhcInfo/66883

There seems to be a discrepancy in the marital surname of Minnie, i.e., on the BHC Sheet, she is married to a Mr Sherman in 1934, however, in the memorial notes from www.findagrave.com, she has the married surname "Lynk". Maybe she had been married twice.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Saturday 06 November 21 10:29 GMT (UK)
Hi everyone, I've started a new thread regarding MAURICE HENRY HALES (Harry Hales) without referencing the relationship to Harry Rundle at this stage. Too complicated for all of that! Hopefully some descendants of Harry Hales, especially those of Harry Jr., Frederick and Elsie, will perhaps come across this new thread if they're researching family history and may be able to shed some light on what happened during the period 1909/1910 - 1914/1915.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Saturday 06 November 21 11:26 GMT (UK)
Thanks for those posts. I wouldnít have expected Ethelís parentage to be given as anything else. However, I think only DNA  will eventually prove for certain who Minnie & Ethelís father actually was. In this respect, your looking for descendants of the Hales family looks like a good idea. Regarding the other info, I recommend the Marshall Family Tree (nmarshall12) on Ancestry; a few assumptions, but generally accurate & well-researched. Re. something you mentioned on an earlier post, I canít see any inkling of Harry Rundle being religious. He was very much a military man, having joined up as early as 1893. His older brother was also in the military as were all his sons. I think Harry found it difficult to settle into civilian life.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Sunday 07 November 21 07:36 GMT (UK)
Hi Nodrog50, I don't know why I didn't think of starting a new thread on Harry Hales earlier to be honest. Just too busy concentrating on other aspects and finding out about the shenanigans of Harry Rundle in the process.

If any grandchildren or great-grandchildren of Harry Jr., Frederick and Elsie come forward with further information, that would be our best hope (Harry Jr. and Alice's son William would be in his 90's if he was still alive, god bless him!!). If jim1 is on the right track with regards to the timeline of Minnie and Harry Rundle's relationship, these 3, the eldest of Minnie's children, were around 7 years old, 4 years old and 12 months old respectively when Minnie and Harry Rundle met. And Harry's wife Alice gave birth to Nellie in 1910 as well.

I started this family history research two years ago, and yourself and a couple of other extended family have come forward which is amazing, so there's hope yet for others to do the same thing.

Is there anything interesting regarding the Marshall Family Tree?

Regards  :)

Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Sunday 07 November 21 10:49 GMT (UK)
Hi everyone, just doing some more hunting around and came across this on the National Archives of Australia website. It's a "List Of Migrants To Western Australia" on the 17th January 1934. The 11th child under the list headed "BOYS" is my grandfather, Joseph John Rundle. It's pretty heartbreaking there's a child as young as 6 on that list as well.

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=446152

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Monday 08 November 21 10:02 GMT (UK)
Removed wife is a great-niece of Minnie Eva Inchley. I reckon heís purchased birth certs of Minnie Evaís children; thereís details there I havenít seen before. However, if Harry Hales is indeed given on birth certs as Minnie & Ethelís father I donít think that should be assumed as true. Removed has Minnie Edith having a daughter, remarrying, and living to 103 years of age!

Moderator comment: the names of living people have been removed. If they are members here, please use their forum names. Users have the right of anonymity on this site
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Tuesday 09 November 21 05:59 GMT (UK)
Hi Nodrog50, does the family tree information indicate that Removed are from the Canada Hales/Inchley side or England, or are you not sure? It's possible Minnie Edith married twice. Her British Home Child Information Sheet has a "Sherman" as her spouse, and elsewhere it's recorded she married a "Lynk". If it's true she lived until 103, that means she only died fairly recently, i.e., around 2015.

I recall someone in the family saying quite some time ago that out of the two girls that ended up in Canada, Ethel was the only one who wanted to stay in touch with my mother and her siblings. Minnie, for whatever reason, chose not to.

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Tuesday 09 November 21 13:33 GMT (UK)
Removed is in the UK, Piglet 392006. He has Minnie as remarrying in 1952. The Find a Grave website has her spouse as Earle Conners Lynk. Re. the girls in Canada trying to contact their family, I donít know whether youíve seen this cutting from the Birmingham Evening Mail.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Wednesday 10 November 21 10:10 GMT (UK)
Hi Nodrog50, what an amazing article, such happy smiley faces all round! I can imagine there would've been plenty of stories to share after such a long, long time. I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall at that family reunion! This article would've been published in the early 1980's (going by Ethel's age here, 68 years old). I'm wondering if the Bill Inchley in this photograph is William Inchley, the son of Harry Hales Jr. and Alice May Snow, who would've been in his mid-50's in the early 1980's. The timeline fits so it's possible it could be him.

I recall family members saying that Ethel wanted to come to Australia to meet family out here, but I'm unsure as to whether she ever travelled here. My mother didn't get a chance to meet her, if she ever did get here.

I've found some more information on Alice Maud Rundle's parents, i.e., their wedding date and Alice's mother's maiden name:-

http://search.jerripediabmd.net/BMD_User/Marriage

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: jim1 on Wednesday 10 November 21 11:07 GMT (UK)
It should be this family from p.5
1881 Jersey:
Alfred John Le Boutillier 34
Louisa Ellen Le Boutillier 29
Alfred Charles Le Boutillier 11
Louisa Jane Le Boutillier 10
Florence Alice Le Boutillier 8
Edward Francis Le Boutillier 6
Sydney Touzall Le Boutillier 3
Alice Maud Le Boutillier 2
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Thursday 11 November 21 22:06 GMT (UK)
My great-grandmother Alice Maud was one of 17 children! The family name originated with an English soldier named Thomas Butler who was stationed in Jersey during the wars with France and married a local girl in 1799. Most of the family adopted the JŤrriais version Le Boutillier.
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: PIGLET392006 on Friday 12 November 21 09:02 GMT (UK)
Hi jim1 and Nodrog50, so Nodrog50 do you think jim1's information about Alice Maud's parents is incomplete? If it's the same family, do you know the other children's names, as there's only 6 children listed here. Or is there extended family elsewhere in the Channel Islands perhaps?

I came across this information about Le Boutilliers farming on the island:-

https://www.genuinejersey.je/member/leboutillierfamily, and

https://www.woodlandsfarmjersey.com/

Regards  :)
Title: Re: Harry RUNDLE, British Army Soldier, born 1874, Luton, Bedfordshire UK
Post by: Nodrog50 on Saturday 13 November 21 09:43 GMT (UK)
Louisa Ellen Le Boutillier (nťe King) was only 16 when she married in 1868. Children were born on a regular basis from 1869 to 1896!