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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: tonythurston on Tuesday 12 November 19 10:07 GMT (UK)
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I am stuck trying to find the right John Anderson who married Ellen Lockhart (abt 1844)(1923-1900) in Carrickfergus (unproven) and lived in Belfast (proven). They raised a family including Agnes Kennedy Richardson (Nee Anderson)(1866-1945), William John Anderson (1845-1881), Samuel H Anderson (1851-1917) and David Anderson (1858-1936). From Agnes's baptism in Carrickfergus her parents are John Anderson and Ellen Lockhart - https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03533/2300407.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03533/2300407.pdf)
Ellen died in 1900 in Belfast a widower. John was alive in 1890 living in Braemar St, Belfast. John apparently served in the Lockhart household and Ellen's parents thought she married beneath her status. I am stuck tracing back from Northern Ireland to Scotland. Many thanks for any insights and advice you can kindly offer
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https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/21293179/person/432119118801/facts?_phsrc=ivF847&_phstart=successSource
A small family tree for John and Ellen is on Ancestry. Author is a Paul Thurston. You may or may not be aware of this. It has John dying in Infirmary 1900 and a "Probable" year of marriage 1844 in Carrickfergus. What is the Edinburgh link you hint at ?
Matt
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Ellen was the widow (not widower) of John Anderson when she died in 1900- informant was daughter Agnes Richardson also 4 Klondyke St.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1900/05747/4623006.pdf
Unfortunately, registration of non-Catholic marriages started 1845 (and Catholic ones 1864) so if they married 1844 or earlier there will be no civil record and that means searching for a church entry. What churches in Larne (or other places) have you already checked?
This link you posted for Agnes is her birth registration not a baptism-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03533/2300407.pdf
Agnes Anderson married (1892) Thomas Richardson-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1892/10639/5876320.pdf
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Hi Matt
Its actually my cousin's tree but I now operate it. This week I discovered John Anderson was buried by his son Samuel after heart failure whilst at the infirmary. I have tried to contact the infirmary for confirmation. In the same year Samuel buried his mother in Belfast city cementry close to John. I checked with a living ancestor that it was Samuel's handwriting - it is. This is a big step forward for me. I now have to contemplate a younger John, born in Edinburgh. The same ancestor points to a serving man born in Edinburgh. Samuel had a very strong military career in India. (59th foot, became east Lancs Regiment #1488). Samuel was born in Carrickfergus
aghadowey
Please let me know what information you would like - I do not keep death, burial records and wills in ancestry but I have them if this helps you
I have tried the Carrickfergus Church of Ireland without reply. I am checking at the infirmary. PRONI also did a search for me and found a number of John and Ellen's baptisms (John William born 20 Feb 1845) but not the marriage or Ellen's birth unfortunately. The ancestor's presumption was that Ellen was born and married in Carrickfergus
Thank you both very much for replying to me, its much appreciated
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Tony
I live in Edinburgh and am very familiar with Scottish Records. What are your ancestors known details and what do you want to know? Was the birth pre 1855? If so, do you know religion ?
Matt
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Hi Matt
If John was 69 and died 19 feb 1900 then born 1830-31. If John William is the eldest son born 1845 then John could have been born earlier to be 18 in 1845 when married then born 1826-27. Ellen died 1900 aged 77 therefore born 1822-23, presumed born Carrickfergus
Literally all I have regarding the Scottish birth from an ancestor is:
"Early 1800s Ellen Lockhart married John Anderson and moved to Belfast. He was said to have been a “serving" man (originally from Edinburgh) in her parental home in Carrickfergus"
"Serving" could mean military or farm labourer. The ancestor prefers agricultural labourer perhaps working in the Lockhart household but given Samuel and David's military background I am not so sure. I do not rule out John could have been on the British Merchant seaman's register but there were many John's born in Scotland or Ireland (national archives). The only other clue was the name Craig in John's family and Samuel's middle name Hamilton and James's middle name Kennedy. Children in the following order: William John, Margaret, Matilda, Samuel, Robert, James, David and Agnes (Kennedy again). No detail on John's siblings
Thank you very much
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To answer your question - non-Catholic; Church of Ireland
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Some research suggestions while I ponder your puzzle.
The master index to Ordnance Survey Memoirs of Ireland would suggest it beneficial to consult Antrim Vol 37 containing references to a Lockhart family (P37) and a Robert Lockhart (P 40 and 175) both Carrickfergus. These memoirs were compiled in 1830s so it is possible (but by no means certain) that these are connected to Ellen's parents. I happen to know Woodburn, as one of my late uncle's lived there and I visited with my parents quite often. I don't have a copy of that particular volume but you should be able to order a copy online from the usual sources.
The Tithe Applotment books and Griffith's valuation may show up Lockharts in the area and give you the all important Townland. Then if you're really really keen (and lucky) you might find your Lockharts in the Register of Deeds for Ireland. This is available online via FamilySearch (LDS) website and a free account, but exploring it is an extremely tedious business of which an explanation too long for this message. There were no less than 8 estates covering Carrickfergus Parish- Brice, Brytt, Dalway, Donegal, Kirk, Macartney, Saunders and Vesey, so you just might find a lease from one of them to a Lockhart (and I stress, it's a big might and only if they weren't sub tenants).
Have fun
Matt
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Thank you Matt
Book purchased. Thank you for your excellent suggestions.
From the 1851 census James Lockhart, is the father of Ellen, married to Eliza, living in the parish of Carrickfergus, townland of Middle Division. James died 1879 and his will mentions Ellen as his daughter - https://apps.proni.gov.uk/willscalendar_ie/WillsSearchImage.aspx?id=176485
The Griffith's valuations in 1861 put James and other lockharts in Middle Division - http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/griffiths-valuation/parish-of-carrickfergus.php
Another record points to the Lockhart's including James leasing land from the Marquis of Downshire - dont know if or how that fits with the estates you kindly mention
Sadly no other mention of Ellen
Seperately, I expected the Lockhart's of Carrickfergus to originally come from Donegal and I hope the book helps in this regards - but that's another step!
Thank you very much
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... From the 1851 census James Lockhart, is the father of Ellen, married to Eliza, living in the parish of Carrickfergus, townland of Middle Division. James died 1879 and his will mentions Ellen as his daughter - https://apps.proni.gov.uk/willscalendar_ie/WillsSearchImage.aspx?id=176485
I'm not sure that I understand you... why would the will of James Lockhart, who died in 1879, referring to his daughters '... Martha and Ellen if still unmarried', read across to the Ellen who had children with John Anderson for several decades before? That doesn't make sense to me, normally the will would give a married name for clarity.
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There a family tree on Ancestry that looks like it might be yours- says Ellen parents are James Lockhart Senior (son of Samuel) and Elizabeth, etc.
I agree with gaffy that the James Lockhart who wrote his Will & died in 1879 was the father of an unmarried daughter named Jane.
That James Lockhart was aged 58 when he died according to death registration so born c1821-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1879/06501/4871887.pdf
This might be the marriage of his daughter Ellen in 1885 but it's really immaterial since this can't be the father of Ellen (Lockhart) Anderson-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1885/10881/5974166.pdf
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Gents, Thank you, I now understand my failed logic and I agree that the marriage of Ellen in 1885 is more applicable to the will of a James L (1821-1879)
I think I need that book to ASAP
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I think you may be getting your hopes up if you think the O.S. Memoir is going to provide much detail about your family. There may, or may not, be Lockharts mentioned but it might be difficult to prove a connection to your Ellen's family.
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I wouldn't get too excited about the O S Memoirs clearing things up....
Have been examining newspaper archives and I suspect that the Robert Lockhart will be associated with Kilroot rather than Duncrue/Duncrew. The Lockharts in Kilroot were Presbyterian (at least one was an elder)
As you already know the Tithe book of 1816 for Carrickfergus parish has , under Duncrew,
James and Robert Lockhart.
The Belfast Newsletter of 23/12/1828 has a petition to the Mayor of Carrickfergus signed by a group of residents, including a Robert Lockhart (no address).
A newspaper article of Jan 1839 has a John Lockhart in Kilroot, and another of July 1840 a William Lockhart as a juror in Carrickfergus
A James Lockhart had more than 20 acres of land in Kilroot in Aug 1851. His only daughter Mary Jane married John Thompson Jan 1877. His son James married Susan Weatherup 28/12/1871 and had Donald Weatherup Lockhart who died 18/10/1937. James senior died 26/3/1922
A Margaret Lockhart , relict of James Lockhart , Kilroot, died Feb 6, 1895, aged 78 and was interred in St Nicholas Burying Ground which therefore may contain some informative tombstones
Duncrue is in the townland "Middle Division" where the Griffiths Valuation of 1861 lists William ,John , and James Lockhart , all tenants of Marquis of Downshire (A Robert Lockhart is also listed in North St and Thomas in West St). I have gone through the Register of Deeds Grantor Index from 1860 backwards several decades and there is no record of any MOD /Lockhart lease (which didn't surprise me , but it would have been nice)
In Nov 1851 "Janet Lockhart , a middle aged woman" met a grisly end in the Bleach Works at Woodburn. She fell into machinery and was ground up.
An article of May 1852 describes
"Duncrue Salt Fields ... about a mile and a half to the north and west of Carrickfergus and opposite the picturesque village and bleach green of Woodburne"
The salt mines were a thriving concern and in Dec 1852 much excitement arose when they finally discovered coal (as had been predicted) under the salt. Hence Kilroot Power Station.
More tragedy in the Lockhart family - Belfast Newsletter Jan 31 1867:-
Report of inquest at Duncrue into death by gunshot of Mary Lockhart , a young woman of about 21. Mary and her sister (not named) were in their own house when a young boy of about 13 called Irwin, a relative, came in looking for their brother's fowling piece. The sisters indicated same and even some caps for the gun. Thinking to just frighten them and neither party realising gun was loaded he pointed same and fired. Mary was hit in the head and died instantly. Verdict of accidental death. This is after official death registration began but image is not available on irishgenealogy, however copy can be ordered and might just be enlightening about her parentage
In Dec 1902 a James Lockhart , tenant in Eden, which is adjacent to Kilroot , was in a rental dispute with his landlord W D Duncan Wilson
In 1903 James Lockhart in Kilroot acted as spokesman for tenants on Holywood estate and is probably the same who was prosecuted for not getting his son Edward McNeilly Lockhart vaccinated
I am slightly puzzled as to where your 1851 census info comes from. There are Lockharts searchable for that year on the National Archives website but not the ones you state ?
Matt
PS Just as i was about to post, I saw Aghadowey's comment about not getting your hopes up, echoing my own sentiments, amplified by this post
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Something I would add, is that if you put the words samuel hamilton carrickfergus into the 'Full Abstract:' field in the online PRONI Will Calendars, you will get back a number of 'hits', including 3 Lockharts...
Which might suggest a basis for John Anderson and Ellen Lockhart naming a child thus and tie them in to these other Lockharts.
BUT, it doesn't mean that Samuel Hamilton (of maybe a couple of generations - father/son?) of Duncrue/Duncrew was actually related, he may just have been a friend and local 'pillar of society'.
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Gents
I agree but I live in hope. Brickwalls for John and Ellen.
I took my original steer from the suggestion that Margaret Lockhart was the sister of Ellen. Then her marriage to Wm Brennan names James Lockhart as her father but I am coming to realise that there are several James Lockhart's around this time - some in Kilroot and others in Duncrew
In the will of William L, (1808-1889) and the probate of Agnes, his spinster daughter, mention is made of James Irwin of Duncrew as executor. Mary, Martha and Robert are also mentioned - hence connecting to the machinery accident and tying up this family
Mary married Henry Mcbrinn who was an executor on Ellen's Anderson (nee Lockhart's) will
In the same will Samuel Hamilton is also executor - I will follow up on the PRONI searches for Samuel - thank you
I have the Weatherup detail but as you say its on the Kilroot side - the james, Robert and William Duncrew connection feels closer
Thank you both again
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Here's the 1851 census extract from an Old Age Pension claim-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKJW-4BF7
James Lockhart (applicant in 1917 gave parents as James & Eliza). Looks like the family was found in Middle Division. Pension age was 70 then so James possibly born c1847 or earlier.
http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/reels/c19/007246684/007246684_01130.pdf
Possibly this is James in 1911 with family (oldest James Lockhart in Co. Antrim in that census)-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Templecorran/Kilroot/188670/
This James Lockhart is the one who married Susan Weatherup mentioned by mattfrombann a few posts earlier.
Same family in 1901-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Templecorran/Kilroot/990313/
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Here is Ellen Anderson at the birth of her sister Margaret's first child - Woodburn 1868 - http://brennen.caltech.edu/brennen/file1d.htm
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Here is Ellen Anderson at the birth of her sister Margaret's first child - Woodburn 1868 - http://brennen.caltech.edu/brennen/file1d.htm
Here's the actual birth registration-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1868/03458/2269661.pdf
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THank you both for all your efforts today
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The book arrived but unfortunately no more specific than you describe on the Lockharts. Numerous Anderson references and related families. I need to read it properly but it suggested as an exception there were marriages as young as 13. IF john was born 1831 or realier and married in 1844 that just about fits.
Reading the wills of William, James and John Lockhart - this generation could be Ellen's siblings or cousins but not father. both james and John's wives were Elizabeth but not Ellen's mother
Mention is made of burials in the church yard (page 93) with Anderson and Lockhart and a host of other interesting names: Hamilton, Kennedy, Irwin and Weatherup. Do you know if there is more information on these burials?
Lots of deserters of military, many Anderson's but unfortunately no detail on what regiments although I suspect it was common practice to sell uniforms to give money to their families
Thank you
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The book arrived but unfortunately no more specific than you describe on the Lockharts. Numerous Anderson references and related families. I need to read it properly but it suggested as an exception there were marriages as young as 13. IF john was born 1831 or realier and married in 1844 that just about fits.
See https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/registration/getting-married-in-scotland/minimum-age-for-marriage-in-scotland
If he married in 1844 he has to have been born before 1831.
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Thank you. 1831 is indicated on John's death certificate and i am regarding it as approximate. He could have married in 1844 or more likely 1845 in Ireland, first child born in 1845 but either way not born 1831, more likely 1826 or 27
Thank you
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The book arrived but unfortunately no more specific than you describe on the Lockharts. Numerous Anderson references and related families. I need to read it properly but it suggested as an exception there were marriages as young as 13. IF john was born 1831 or realier and married in 1844 that just about fits.
Reading the wills of William, James and John Lockhart - this generation could be Ellen's siblings or cousins but not father. both james and John's wives were Elizabeth but not Ellen's mother
Mention is made of burials in the church yard (page 93) with Anderson and Lockhart and a host of other interesting names: Hamilton, Kennedy, Irwin and Weatherup. Do you know if there is more information on these burials?
Lots of deserters of military, many Anderson's but unfortunately no detail on what regiments although I suspect it was common practice to sell uniforms to give money to their families
Thank you
Ref burials . The Ulster historical Foundation has published (1916) a book entitled
"Old families of Carrickfergus and Ballynure, Gravestone Inscriptions, Wills and Biographical notes"
I don't have a copy , but it may be of interest (or do a lookup request)
Matt
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Sorry, meant 2016 ::)
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Thank you Mattfrombann - read this today and trying to buy the book