RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: greenvalley on Monday 18 November 19 14:02 GMT (UK)
-
Alexander Harris and his wife Sarah Fyfe had 6 children
James, born about 1841 in Kendal, Westmorland, England
Jane, born about 1843, Perth details from census
Margaret 1846 Newburgh, Fyfe, details from census
Alexander 1848 Auchterarder, Perth details from census
John 1854 Newburgh Fyfe details from census
Elizabeth born 1858, properly registered in Dundee because official records had started
So the couple never registered the birth of their children until the last one in 1858. Has anyone come across this? Why would they have avoided registering them?
I have tried every record on Scotlandspeople and BMD for the birth of the oldest son, but found absolutely nothing and can't understand why?
Any ideas anyone?
Greenvalley
-
So the couple never registered the birth of their children until the last one in 1858. Has anyone come across this? Why would they have avoided registering them?
I have tried every record on Scotlandspeople and BMD for the birth of the oldest son, but found absolutely nothing and can't understand why?
Any ideas anyone?
The first child was born in England. Registration of births began in England 1837. It wasn't compulsory. Onus was on local registrars to find out about births, not on parents. They weren't 100% successful.
All except last child were born in Scotland before birth registration began there so no birth records to find.
Only records would be baptisms. What denomination were they?
-
Hi Maiden Stone
They were Free Church. The couple married in Burnside Westmorland on 23 July 1840 and were back in Perth Scotland in June 1841 for the census, when the baby is said to be 2 months old and born in England. In the 1881 census James himself stated that he was born in Kendal, but there is no registration.
Most people in Scotland would register the birth in the old parish records, but they did not.
-
You should be looking for baptisms rather than birth registrations since this is the period prior to civil registration.
-
I have looked for the baptisms, they are not there. None of them, except the last child.
Believe me, I have tried every denomination, every different spelling of the name, They are all on census forms but not on any other record.
I just can't understand why they would not register them. If only one was missing, I would think it's a mistake or oversight, but it applies to 4 births in Scotland, in different parishes, that seems too much of a coincidence, especially if you consider that the birth in Kendal wasn't registered either.
-
They must have left Kendal without the registrar knowing about the birth. Registrars would have used informants such as clergy and midwives. The Harris family might not have had contact with either before they left Kendal. James may have put Kendal as his birthplace because it was the nearest town.
Were there any churches in or around Kendal where James may have been baptised, taking into account his parents were Free Church?
What was Alexander's occupation?
There was a 2-year-old girl on 1841 census in a multi-generational household of my ancestors in Preston, Lancashire, whose birth registration I've not found. Can't find her baptism either. She wasn't on 1851 census but there was no death registration in the intervening decade. ??? I can understand no birth registration, she was simply missed among the teeming hordes. More puzzling is what happened to her after 1841.
-
Hi Maiden Stone
Alexander was a wood turner. He was born in Newburgh in Fyfe and his wife Sarah came from Haddington East Lothian.
I'm not certain how (or if) they met in Kendal, but they married there and then had a baby and went back to Scotland. No idea why.
I can follow all the children, their marriages, deaths etc, bbut no birth registration anywhere. But I know how frustrating it can be if people all of a sudden appear and then vanish again.
-
Have you considered that the babes were baptised but that the Church Registers have been lost perhaos due to a calamity eg if most of the children 'should' be found in the same baptism register is it possible there may have been a significant fire or flood in the mid to late 1800s ?
ADD or the registers may be misplaced or not submitted to Church leaders when full.
JM.
-
Birth registration in Scotland started in 1855, so the 1843, 1846, 1848 and 1854 births in Scotland did not need to be regsitered. As for the 1841 birth in England, well, as stated, several births went unregistered as it was down to the registrar and his deputies to tour the district to get info on new births in the district, and some got missed.
-
Majm
that would have been a possibility if it weren't for the fact that the children were born in different parishes.
Perth, Newburgh and Auchterarder are not next door to each other so it's unlikely to be a flood or fire if you get my drift.
-
Baptisms were usually at home but as the family were on the move frequently, they possibly didn't get round to baptising the children & may partly be to do with not actually being a member of a church in their short time in different places?
Annie
-
That could be possible. But I still find it strange, I have hundreds of people in the family tree who were ag labs and moved about an awful lot, they all had their children baptised, with only the odd birth not being recorded.
This guy was a wood turner yet has none of them recorded (apart from the last one he legally had to do) and I just think it's too much of a coincidence.
I reckon he perhaps was not religious or really couldn't be bothered.
-
The first child was born in England. Registration of births began in England 1837. It wasn't compulsory. Onus was on local registrars to find out about births, not on parents. They weren't 100% successful.
Amendment. A parent could be prosecuted and fined if s/he refused to give information about a child's birth when asked by a registrar. Source "1874 and All That" https://lifelinesresearch.co.uk/2019/01/20/1874-and-all-that
Non-registration of births 1837-1874 in England & Wales was estimated at 5%. Compliance increased over time. I assume that failure to register was higher than 5% in the early years. I also assume that a registrar for Kendal district never met either of James' parents to ask them about his birth. 6 weeks were allowed for registration; the family probably left the area during that time and never got around to registering him. They may have left suddenly.
Were there any Presbyterian or other Non-conformist chapels in Kendal area where James may have been baptised and whose records are lost or unknown?
-
I don't know about chapels in or near Kendal.
However, if he couldn't be bothered to have his next 4 children baptised in Scotland, where there were ample chapels, then perhaps the answer is that he was a non believer.
Thanks for your replies, they helped me to make my mind up.
-
May be worth checking if there were Free Churches in the small areas in Scotland where the children were born as they may have been a distance from home but it may have been, people had to be resident in a place for a length of time to be able to join a church as any hardship would fall on the church?
Someone with more knowledge may know?
Annie
-
Many people, especially religious people, were very skeptical with the state's "interference" in what they considered to be the Church's affairs.
They considered a baptism to be proof enough.
Scots Presbyterian church registers may not be online?
-
May be worth checking if there were Free Churches in the small areas in Scotland where the children were born as they may have been a distance from home but it may have been, people had to be resident in a place for a length of time to be able to join a church as any hardship would fall on the church?
Someone with more knowledge may know?
Annie
Newburgh is not a small place nor was Auchterarder nor is Perth. As I said chapels were in abundance, I now think maybe he didn't like the church
-
Many people, especially religious people, were very skeptical with the state's "interference" in what they considered to be the Church's affairs.
They considered a baptism to be proof enough.
Scots Presbyterian church registers may not be online?
They are online, he just didn't use them
As I said, he probably didn't want to register them for whatever reason.
-
It might be that ScotlandsPeople just doesn't have those particular Free Church registers yet. The following link seems to suggest that adding them is an ongoing process. There's also a useful list of registers held for churches other than the Established and Roman Catholic Churches:
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/guides/church-registers
Imber
-
It seems likely that James was baptised in the Kendal area. Burneside is close enough to Kendal to refer to as "Kendal" by the time you are as far away as Fife.
Very few church records from Westmorland (or Cumberland) are available online. Cumbria Archives don't seem to have wanted to do a deal with either of the big players.
I had to visit the record office in Kendal to follow up a couple of families I was interested in. They too were non-conformists, and used Kendal parish church for marriages and their own chapels for baptisms & burials.
-
Thanks for all your replies and suggestions.
My question arose because it struck me as strange that none of the children were registered until it became compulsory in Scotland and that that time the family was living in Dundee and had been there for a while.
Explanations as church not registered yet, documents lost in flood, no chapel available are all possibilities. But his relatives managed to have their children registered in the same area.
If it had been the one child I would have thought nothing of it, but 5 children?? In different towns? They had been in Perth since 1841, so ample time to register the 1843 birth at some chapel. Same for the 2 born in Auchterarder, one in 1846 and one in 1848, again enough time to find a chapel. One child born in Newburgh in 1854, family was living there as early as 1851.
But discussing all the possibilities with you guys and looking at the facts has helped me to conclude that Alexander simmply chose not to register the births for whatever reason.
Thanks to everybody for your advice
Greenvalley
-
I have 2 ancestors whose births were never registered, and one of them had a brother whose birth was never registered, and I have checked all variants under the sun, including the County Durham own index of BMD's. 1856 and 1857 the births were.
The other one was born c1852 in Essex. Such incidences must be why in 1874 they toughened up and made it the parents (or anyone present at the birth) to register the birth. I think that 1874 enactment came into force in January 1875.
-
But discussing all the possibilities with you guys and looking at the facts has helped me to conclude that Alexander simmply chose not to register the births for whatever reason.
You seem very keen to blame the husband, and never mention the wife?
This might be construed as sexist thinking! ;D ;D
-
Kgarrad
You are so right 😂
However, since it was usually the man who registered the birth (woman maybe still a bit knackered) I blamed him. My bad.
So I apologise and for everybody out there: "I wonder why they, Alexander and Sarah, did not register the births of their children. My best guess is that they weren't religious or just couldn't be bothered for some obscure reason."
Better? 😉
Greenvalley
-
Scottish Registrars apparently accepted a three month delay in registering a birth to allow a marriage to take place first. Useful for men at sea etc!
Skoosh.
-
Both my husband’s and my tree have a number of families all over England and Wales where the children born in the early days of registration were not registered. Most luckily have baptisms to confirm the parents, but not all sadly.
We have many births registered by the mother (even with a father at home).
-
Scottish Registrars apparently accepted a three month delay in registering a birth to allow a marriage to take place first. Useful for men at sea etc!
Skoosh.
Skoosh, not 1841 - 1854 which are the dates the OP mentioned :D
Annie
-
Annie, a reply to the general question!
Skoosh.
-
Hi - I have a welsh family where several children are born 1850 to 1875; only one registered; no baptisms as they were non-conformists and the records have not survived. Only trace I have is census and burials where they were buried in the churchyard
Nesta.