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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Saturday 23 November 19 08:54 GMT (UK)

Title: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Saturday 23 November 19 08:54 GMT (UK)
Hi, Everyone,
Have for some time been unsuccessfully searching for the BARON family in the East Riding of Yorkshire beyond/before the earliest record that I had so far of a Cornwall BARON marrying at Beverley Minster in 1721, aged 23.
Now I have just discovered a baptismal record for 5th Feb 1698 for a Cornelis BARON in Leiden, the Netherlands.  Mother's name given as Katharina VINCKESTEIJN.
I wonder whether some kind person who has access to these 17thC Dutch records could perhaps provide me with further details of this family in this part of the world, if that is at all possible.  Or point me towards sources that I might be able to further search and investigate.
I'm very excited to suddenly come across this new evidence, needless to say!
Keith
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: KGarrad on Saturday 23 November 19 09:19 GMT (UK)
Have you tried: https://www.wiewaswie.nl/en/?
(It means Who Was Who; and parts are in English)
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Saturday 23 November 19 10:09 GMT (UK)
Hi again, KGarrad,
And thanks so much for that link.  I'll have a good look at things on there now...
Keith
Ooh! Just noticed the significant landmark there of five thousand posts!
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: KGarrad on Saturday 23 November 19 10:40 GMT (UK)
Congratulations on reaching the heady heights of Marquessate! ;D

That's as far as it goes, though ;)
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: trish1120 on Saturday 23 November 19 10:42 GMT (UK)
Welcome to the club Keith :)
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Saturday 23 November 19 11:27 GMT (UK)
I'll take a deep bow then,  KGarrad and Trish1120,
Though I believe I actually earned my final star as a Marquessate after 3,000 posts.  Maybe the  goalposts have been moved since then, it's been a while...
Keith
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: jayaygee on Saturday 23 November 19 14:37 GMT (UK)
See https://gw.geneanet.org/mary952?lang=en&n=baron&oc=&p=huijbert+cornelisz
It would probably be worth contacting Mary de Jaeger as she is a direct descendant.

Judith
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Saturday 23 November 19 15:46 GMT (UK)
Judith,
I don't know how you managed to unearth this link, but that's very interesting indeed. Many thanks.   I will indeed try and contact that tree holder - might well prove fruitful in the quest for earlier BARON ancestors in The Netherlands.  Must look up what was happening in late 17thC Netherlands re political or religious goings on to get some kind of idea why Cornelis/Cornwall/Cornwal/Cornwell BARON might have migrated across the North Sea to East Yorkshire to farm there...
Keith
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: KGarrad on Saturday 23 November 19 15:51 GMT (UK)
Take a look at this Wikipedia page:
https://www.transfergo.com/en/blog/dutch-in-uk/
and
https://www.visitnorfolk.co.uk/inspire/dutch-links-with-norfolk_norwich.aspx
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: jayaygee on Saturday 23 November 19 15:52 GMT (UK)
I just entered the info you had given into theGénéanet search engine!  As to the reason for the migration - always supposing that was the case - land drainage perhaps?

Judith




Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Saturday 23 November 19 23:39 GMT (UK)
Many thanks again KGarrad and Judith,
Lots to ponder and explore.  This is a whole new area for me, The Netherlands in the 17thC.  Though for many years I have had hanging in my house a print of the Pieter de Hooch painting of A Woman Peeling Apples.  I think I once saw the original displayed in the Wallace Collection in London, painted in 1663 I believe...
Keith
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: TreeSpirit on Monday 25 November 19 06:45 GMT (UK)

Datum ondertrouw (“Notice of marriage”): 21-09-1686 Leiden
Cornelis Baron (chirurgijn) geboren te Leyden, wonende te Noortwijck
Catharina Vinckesteyn wonende te Wassenaer

Note:
Leyden = Leiden
Noortwijck = Noordwijk
Wassenaer = Wassenaar

Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: TreeSpirit on Monday 25 November 19 06:55 GMT (UK)

Trouwregister 19-10-1686 (Noordwijk)
Cornelis Baron geboren te Leijden, wonende te Noortwijck
Cataharina Vinckestijn wonende te Wassenaer

Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Monday 25 November 19 10:03 GMT (UK)
Good morning, Tree Spirit!
What an amazing discovery you have made for me, and what an amazing language Dutch looks to the eye of someone like myself who only has English as a fluent language...
Thank you so much for that, and does it appear that the bridegroom was a surgeon, or chirurgeon - isn't that almost the French word? Fascinating stuff, with apparently Cornelis junior born 12 years after this marriage...
Keith
Would "wonende" mean "born in" or "from" perhaps...or does "geboren" mean that?
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: Karen McDonald on Monday 25 November 19 11:05 GMT (UK)
Hi Keith,

"wonende" = resident, domiciled
"geboren" = born

Best regards,
Karen
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Monday 25 November 19 14:00 GMT (UK)
Hi, Karen
Thanks so much for that Dutch language lesson!  I'd better get the map out now and see where Noortwijck and Wassenaer are in relation to Liejden...
Keith
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: KGarrad on Monday 25 November 19 14:30 GMT (UK)
Noordwijk (modern spelling!) is very close to Schiphol airport and Keukenhof (famous gardens).
And just 12km from Leiden.
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: KGarrad on Monday 25 November 19 14:32 GMT (UK)
Wassenaar (also modern spelling) is almost next door!; both are on the coast.
10km West from Leiden.
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Monday 25 November 19 14:43 GMT (UK)
All very nice and local, KGarrad.  I've never thought of Holland as being a very extensive country anyway - I wonder how many miles/kilometres it is in fact from top to bottom and from side to side.  I wonder too what capabilities a Dutch "surgeon" had or what tasks he would have been expected to handle (if that is indeed Cornelis BARON's occupation in 1686).  I wonder if they started out as "barber-surgeons" as in this country, England I mean...
Keith
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: TreeSpirit on Monday 25 November 19 15:15 GMT (UK)
Fascinating stuff, with apparently Cornelis junior born 12 years after this marriage...

There seem to have been a "few" kids before Cornelis (junior) although I think that some did not survive childhood:

(Akte)datum (date (of document)): 16-03-1687, Plaats: Noordwijk
Dopeling (Child receiving baptism): Willem Baron
Vader/Moeder: Cornelis Baron/Catrina Baron
Getuige (Witness): Harmanis Vinckestijn, Fransijna Vinckestijn
-
(Akte)datum: 05-02-1688, Plaats: Leiden (Hooglandsche kerk)
Dopeling: Josina Baron
Vader/Moeder: Cornelis Baron/Catharina Baron
Getuige: Huijbert Baron, Fransina Vinkesteijn, Ariaantje van Driel
-
(Akte)datum: 09-03-1689, Plaats: Leiden (Pieters kerk)
Dopeling: Meijnsje Baron
Vader/Moeder: Cornelis Baron/Catharina Baron
Getuige: Francina Baron, Huijbert Baron, Ariaantje van Driel
-
(Akte)datum: 24-09-1692, Plaats: Leiden (Pieters kerk)
Dopeling: Meijnsje Baron
Vader/Moeder: Kornelis Baron/Katharina Baron
Getuige: Christiaan Blom, Annetje Blom, Francijntje Vinkesteijn
-
(Akte)datum: 15-01-1694, Plaats: Leiden (Pieters kerk)
Dopeling: Huibert Baron
Vader/Moeder: Cornelis Baron/Catrina Vinkestein
Getuige: Christiaan Blom, Annetje Cornelis, Francijntje Vinkesteijn
-
(Akte)datum: 17-04-1695, Plaats: Leiden (Marekerk)
Dopeling:  Hubrecht Baron
Vader/Moeder: Kornelis Baron/Katharina Vinkesteijn
Getuige: Bartholomeus van der Voord. Francina Vinkesteijn, Maria de Reijne
-
(Akte)datum: 15-08-1696 Plaats: Leiden (Pieters kerk)
Dopeling: Huibert Baron
Vader/Moeder: Cornelis Baron/Cathrina Vinkestein
Getuige: Bartholomeus van Voort, Christina Ymmerseel
-
(Akte)datum: 05-02-1698, Plaats: Leiden (Pieters kerk)
Dopeling: Cornelis Baron
Vader/Moeder: Cornelis Baron/Katharina Vinckesteijn
Getuige: Dirk van Groenevelt, Christina Ymmerzeel
-
(Akte)datum: 17-07-1699, Plaats: Leiden (Pieters kerk)
Dopeling: Meijnse Baron
Vader/Moeder: Cornelis Baron/Catharina Vinkesteijn
Getuige: Abraham Lannoij, Klasijntie van Twist
-
(Akte)datum: 20-11-1701, Plaats: Leiden (Pieters kerk)
Dopeling: Hubertus Baron
Vader/Moeder: Cornelis Baron/Catarina Vinkesteijn
Getuige: Jacobus Immerseel, Francina Vinckesteijn


FYI: Meinsje is most likely a girl, but Meinse could be a boy



Apparently Hubert Cornelisz Baron married 3 times and Cornelis (senior) might have been a product of his first marriage :

(Akte)datum: 19-03-1656, Plaats: Leiden (Hooglandsche kerk)
Dopeling: Cornelis
Vader/Moeder: Hubert Cornelis/ Mensyen van Groenevelt
Getuige: Trijntyen van Groenevelt, Derk van Groenevelt, Anna van groenevelt
Image: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9QJ-8VJS?i=115&cc=2037907&cat=224002 (left page, second from the top)

(FYI: The following link has children from Hubert’s second and third marriages, but none listed for his first: https://www.mijnstambomen.nl/leiden/baron.htm)


N.B.  there is no real need to ask for translations. Google Translate (https://translate.google.com ) does a terrific job nowadays (I have used it extensively for Finnish, Sweedish, German etc research and can't work without it)
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: KGarrad on Monday 25 November 19 16:20 GMT (UK)
N.B.  there is no real need to ask for translations. Google Translate (https://translate.google.com ) does a terrific job nowadays (I have used it extensively for Finnish, Sweedish, German etc research and can't work without it)

TreeSpirit - Have to confess I sometime use it for Dutch :-[
I lived/worked in NL for 16 years - although always with English speaking companies.
And I left there 6 years ago.
So my Dutch is a little rusty ;D ;D
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: TreeSpirit on Monday 25 November 19 16:47 GMT (UK)

I lived there for about the same amount of time, but left many, many years before you ...
Note: My very last Dutch address was in ... Leiden.  :-)
Title: Re: The BARON family in Leiden, The Netherlands in the 17thC
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Monday 25 November 19 17:41 GMT (UK)
TreeSpirit and KGarrad,
Thanks so much for all your further input, and there's even more exciting news, as on the advice earlier in this thread from Jayaygee I did contact Dutch tree owner who had Cornelis BARON on it.  And have just received a lovely long communication from her in really fluent English, for all her apologies about her English being rusty.  Certainly puts me to shame...
Anyway, this Cornelis BARON senior, the man who married Catharina VINKESTEIN (sic) in 1686 apparently married several times and also had 7 other children from "unknown relationships", and all in all had 18 children!   A very productive chap.
Possible generations prior  to him she gives as a male BARON born in circa 1600, and before that a male BARON born in circa 1570.  Heady stuff.
Keith