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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wexford => Topic started by: Zoe44 on Tuesday 03 December 19 23:21 GMT (UK)
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Hi would anybody be able to help confirm a few details on this census extract ..
Its potentially my GG grandmother Ellen Donnell and her family etc but I'm unsure on how or who the James Dyce (or Dice) is in relation to the Census and also the address as
Rev. Andrew Obrien C.C
Ballymitty Wexford.
Theres also a few scribbling at the bottom of the page I'm unable to decipher.
Any help I'd be very grateful
Many thanks!
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Which site are you using. I'm not finding anything on http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/
If possible - please post the link
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Here it is Carole
http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/search/cs/details.jsp?id=61571
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I think the application was made 1917 by James Dice
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wexford/Ballymitty/Ballingly/691283/
He seems to have made other claims, e.g.
http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/reels/c19/007246717/007246717_00285.pdf
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I think the application was made 1917 by James Dice
He seems to have made other claims, e.g.
http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/reels/c19/007246717/007246717_00285.pdf
He couldn't remember where he'd lived in 1851, hence the various locations and repeat applications.
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I think the application was made 1917 by James Dice
He seems to have made other claims, e.g.
http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/reels/c19/007246717/007246717_00285.pdf
He couldn't remember where he'd lived in 1851, hence the various locations and repeat applications.
Thank you for your replies ...
I did a little more digging after posting this and understand it could be to do with pension applications?
Do you mean James Dice gave an address that came up with the Donnell family living at that location and not him?
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http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/search/cs/details.jsp?id=61571
Its potentially my GG grandmother Ellen Donnell and her family etc but I'm unsure on how or who the James Dyce (or Dice) is in relation to the Census and also the address as
Rev. Andrew Obrien C.C
Ballymitty Wexford.
Theres also a few scribbling at the bottom of the page I'm unable to decipher.
James Dyce/Dyce couldn't remember where he was on census night 1851, when he was a child or whom he was staying with or visiting. I assume that he thought he had a connection to a John Donnelly or Donnell.
Rev. O'Brien may have helped James complete the census search application form. Dealing with officialdom in order to apply for an old age pension was a new thing and some elderly people required assistance in form-filling and then reading and understanding response.
Handwritten notes:
"Report only
Return searched by W … 12.2.17 n-f
Frank John & Johanna Donnelly
no trace of applct Sheet 3
an..
2/- rectd
Bap note
W …
c
34878798
W.... 14.12.17"
My interpretation:
Census returns were searched by a clerk whose forename began with W., using the information supplied by James Dyce. Not found.
Application or applicant's Sheet 3 was missing.
2 shillings fee received.*
Note about James' baptism.
If you can find baptism register entry for James, it may throw some light on a connection to a Donnelly family or some of the people he named on his other application, found by Heywood (Reply #3).
*Correction. Having looked at other applications from James Dyce this may have been 2 shillings returned, as the search for him yielded no result.
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I did a little more digging after posting this and understand it could be to do with pension applications?
Do you mean James Dice gave an address that came up with the Donnell family living at that location and not him?
Pension applicants had to prove age. James was born before civil registration of births began in Ireland. He was seeking documentary proof of his existence and age at the time of 1851 census.
Another search request by him in Feb. 1917 was for John & Mary Crosbie who were in Ballingly parish. There was also a search in Ballymitty parish but I couldn't see the form for that.
If you look at the 2nd one found by Heywood (Reply #3), you'll see 3 different surnames as head of households (Dyce, Murphy, Doyle) in 3 parishes. Notes by official on that form, submitted in May 1917:
"Not found in any family a b or c. See over for report.
The claimant should endeavour to recollect where he resided in 1851 as this Dept. has already made previous searches on his behalf."
James would have been around 4 years old (or thought he was) in 1851, so it's not surprising he didn't know where he was on census night. I get the feeling that he moved around in childhood; possibly due to eviction/death of a parent/parent moving to find work or charity. Names of various heads of households which James supplied may have been relatives or people with whom he lodged or for whom his parent worked. The priest, Rev. O'Brien, may have been trying to help by asking James questions about people and places he remembered.
Although the proportion of people making pension applications was high in Ireland, not every elderly person was eligible. Not all those who intended to apply for a pension needed to request a census search - some had other means of proving age, e.g. entry in baptism register.
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I agree with the previous comments by Maiden Stone, but would add:
The most likely scenario is that James Dice/Dyce was either the son of a labourer who moved from farm to farm, or itinerants (tinkers), who moved from place to place. In either case, you can imagine that it might be hard for him to recollect which family he was with in 1851 - assuming he was even born by then (see below). If this is correct, then he was not a relation of the Donnellys.
This is him on the 1901 and 1911 census returns, and you can see why he needed assistance in making the application, as he was illiterate (where the priest came in). Also, there is obvious uncertainty regarding his age. In 1901 he is said to be 45, but 70 in 1911!
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001291685/ (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001291685/)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003601344/ (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003601344/)
He was baptized into the Catholic church, in Taghmon, on 27/5/1866, as a convert.
Addendum:
He was married in 1873, at which time he said he was 22. If this is correct then one can see that his recollection of events in 1851 might be hazy (as in non-existent)! However, he also says his father was a farmer.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1873/11266/8131728.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1873/11266/8131728.pdf)
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Here is the marriage registration for James' father, George Dyce.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1868/11451/8206428.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1868/11451/8206428.pdf)
In 1868, when he is stated to be a bachelor! This changes the most likely scenario: if his father was a bachelor in 1868, then James must have been illegitimate.
[Note that the name and address for George match the name and address on one of the census search forms submitted for James, so this is his father].
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Griffith's Valuation, in 1853, shows that the Dyce farm in Rochestown was a large, 92 acres, and was held by George's father, Dilmon. That his grandson, James, was an illiterate labourer reinforces the supposition that James was illegitimate.
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He was baptized into the Catholic church, in Taghmon, on 27/5/1866, as a convert.
The name of his father in baptism register is James Dyce. ???
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When I clicked on the link to James' marriage in Wexflyer's reply #8, I was taken to the census again. ??? I found the marriage by going to the website for civil registrations.
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Hi thanks for all your replies and everything you've explained for me :) I was really unsure who James was in regards to the census but it makes total sense now.
I'm not sure he'll link up or give me any more clues in my search for Ellen Donnell but either way you've all cleared up alot of questions I had about the census.
Thanks again for explaining everything in detail to a novice like me!! :)
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When I clicked on the link to James' marriage in Wexflyer's reply #8, I was taken to the census again. ??? I found the marriage by going to the website for civil registrations.
Somewhat bizarre, as the text of the link address was the correct address for the marriage registration. In any case, I redid the link.
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He was baptized into the Catholic church, in Taghmon, on 27/5/1866, as a convert.
The name of his father in baptism register is James Dyce. ???
Simply confusion and non-standard format, resulting from an adult baptism? If you take the record literally then his mother was named John!
His father is named as George on both his marriage registrations (he was married twice).