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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Mariel Mariel on Friday 13 December 19 03:50 GMT (UK)
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Mary was born 14 Feb 1889 in Uralla NSW. She was 6/13 children of Job Carpenter and Sarah Billington. The family story about Mary is that when she was 16 she went to town one day and never came back. The belief was that she was living with a miner or ran away with the circus. Really? No-one looked for her or reported her missing? Would have been about 1905. I cannot find any trace of her other than her birth certificate. Can anyone help?
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Hi,
Have you checked the 1902 marriage #4854 registered Quirindi for a Mary J CARPENTER and a Walter TURNER? I have only looked at the online index. 1889 + 12 = 1901, and NSW law at that time allowed girls to marry at age 12, but consent would have been needed and should be noted on the registration.
JM
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Only two deaths with parents Job and Sarah. Another two have Mary with a middle name:
15697/1936 FOWLER Mary YOUNG
20409/1942 BONNING Mary NEWTOWN.
If she did join a circus, she could have ended up in another State, of course.
Jamjar
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Thank you JamJar, but I don’t think either of these are my girl.
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Hi,
Have you checked the 1902 marriage #4854 registered Quirindi for a Mary J CARPENTER and a Walter TURNER? I have only looked at the online index. 1889 + 12 = 1901, and NSW law at that time allowed girls to marry at age 12, but consent would have been needed and should be noted on the registration.
JM
Yes, that’s a possibility but family records suggest she was still there when she was 16.
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CARPENTER MARY
31471/1889
JOB
SARAH
URALLA
Death: CARPENTER MAY
2053/1894
JOB
SARAH
ARMIDALE
Mary J. aka May Carpenter
Mary (May) Jane Carpenter from tree Carpenter Family Tree
Record information.
Birth 1889 Uralla, NSW AUS
Father given name surname (1857-year)
Mother given name surname (1859-year)
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CARPENTER MARY
31471/1889
JOB
SARAH
URALLA
Death: CARPENTER MAY
2053/1894
JOB
SARAH
ARMIDALE
Mary J. aka May Carpenter
Mary (May) Jane Carpenter from tree Carpenter Family Tree
Record information.
Birth 1889 Uralla, NSW AUS
Father given name surname (1857-year)
Mother given name surname (1859-year)
Thank you Robert but Mary and May were two seperate people; it was a large family. Mary b. 1889 May b. 1894 and died same year. Family records have Mary still in Uralla in 1905 but then she disappeared.
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Death certificates for ......Job CARPENTER........... Sarah CARPENTER (nee BILLINGTON)
how are their children recorded.....all named...how many deceased etc.
"..Family records have Mary still in Uralla in 1905 but then she disappeared".
What are these records? How is Mary identified to be in Uralla?
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Sands Country Pastoral Directory 1905
GLEN INNES pastoral district
Job CARPENTER, Bonanza Farm, Kangaroo Gap.
horses : 10
cattle : 10
sheep : 200
JM
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"..Family records have Mary still in Uralla in 1905 but then she disappeared".
What are these records? How is Mary identified to be in Uralla?
[/quote]
Records = Stories passed down from generation to generation…. I have all the info and docs I need on the rest of the family; both parents and all other siblings.I have Mary's birth certificate but cant find a marriage or death certificate. Family say she ran away.
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I am just popping a couple of links that may be of interest to others following the thread, as they may have offline resources and the spare moments to look further :)
:) to the obit for Job Ernest CARPENTER, one of the sons of Joe and Sarah CARPENTER, and so a brother to Mary J. Job Ernest's burial was to Guyra cemetery, and in November 1950 he had three surviving brothers and two surviving sisters, Mesdames P Walls, and F Onslow.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/174009966 Guyra Argus 9 Nov 1950.
:) to the obit for Mrs Sarah CARPENTER at Tenterfield hospital 16 Oct 1935, relict of the late Job Carpenter of Stannum. Stannum is around 170 kms north of Uralla. She was buried with her late husband, at Glen Innes, and was the mother of Mrs T J FRASER and a number of adult grandchildren are named in the article in the Inverell Times.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184627938 Glen Innes Examiner 17 Oct 1935
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184676483 Inverell Times 18 Oct 1935
So it seems to me that Mary is not the only one who was not mentioned in her mum's obit. I have not looked for her dad's obit, but I suspect he died in 1927 as per NSW BDM online index of deaths. Perhaps I have the wrong family, I am not sure.
JM
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Hi,
I am just harking back to wivenhoe's comment about Sarah's death certificate.
It seems to me likely that Phoebe FRASER, (nee CARPENTER) who was the woman referred to in the obituary, was the person who informed for the making out of the certificate.
You will of course know if this is the case or if it was another.
As the eldest in the family, she would have had a good perspective on events and in completing the certificate details, would have been asked whether each sibling is living or deceased.
What was her reply in the case of Mary?
Sue
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Hi,
Have you checked the 1902 marriage #4854 registered Quirindi for a Mary J CARPENTER and a Walter TURNER? I have only looked at the online index. 1889 + 12 = 1901, and NSW law at that time allowed girls to marry at age 12, but consent would have been needed and should be noted on the registration.
JM
I would definitely follow up JM find. This date drills down to 02/06/1902. This couple then had a daughter, Grace, on 06/09/1902. No 35155/1902 at Quirindi.
Back in that era things were covered up and stories changed. Perhaps she had run off with someone and a quick wedding ensued.
Regards
Jennaya
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What children are listed on Job's death certificate? This information would have been supplied by his wife Sarah.
Regards
Jennaya
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Jod and Sarah Children:
1. CARPENTER PHOEBE
8913/1879
JOB
SARAH
URALLA
2. CARPENTER GEORGE
24477/1881
JOB
SARAH
URALLA
D: CARPENTER GEORGE
24409/1919
JOB
SARAH
TENTERFIELD
3. CARPENTER JOB
27144/1883
JOB
SARAH
ARMIDALE
D: CARPENTER JOB ERNEST
32044/1950
JOB
SARAH
GUYRA
4. CARPENTER MARY
31471/1889
JOB
SARAH
URALLA
5. CARPENTER PEARL
34646/1890
JOB
SARAH
URALLA
6. CARPENTER ARTHUR
4404/1892
JOB
SARAH
ARMIDALE
7.D: CARPENTER MAY
2053/1894
JOB
SARAH
ARMIDALE
8. CARPENTER ALBERT
8236/1895
JOB
SARAH
URALLA
D: CARPENTER ALBERT
9954/1963
JOB
SARAH
TAMWORTH
9. CARPENTER RUBY
12973/1897
JOB
SARAH
INVERELL
10. CARPENTER DOLLY
31189/1899
JOB
SARAH
INVERELL
DIED:
CARPENTER ERNEST JOHN
4372/1954
JOB ERNEST
SARAH
TENTERFIELD
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Obit for Mary's dad
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184214878 30 December 1926 Glen Innes Examiner
A very old resident of Deepwater district, Mr Job Carpenter, passed away in his sleep at his home at Stannum on Sunday night. ..... For a few years .... residing at Stannum, previous to which he had been living on his property at Pye's Creek.
NO mention of his wife or his children.
Do we know which town Mary J went to and did not return from back in around 1905? Uralla, Glen Innes, Deepwater, Tenterfield, Emmaville, Inverell, and various other localities in the district.
ADD
NSW ER 1902 GWYIR, polling Kangaroo Camp
Job CARPENTER, Paradise Creek, farmer
Paradise Creek on the NSW government’s historic maps should be in the:
Parish of Balaclava & Newstead
County of Gough
Land district of Inverell
Pastures Protection District of Inverell
Local Government authority of Macintyre Shire
And
Parish of Flagstone
County of Gough
Land district of Glen Innes
Pastures Protection district of Tenterfield
Local government district of Severn Shire
See also
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=678243.0 (Geographical Names Board)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=777978.0 (Land Registry Services) and https://hlrv.nswlrs.com.au/ and
https://www.nswlrs.com.au/About/About/Announcements/48
JM
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Thank you everyone for your time but there doesn not appear to be anything new in this information. I will continue my research.
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NSW Electoral Rolls 1930 TENTERFIELD, polling at Deepwater
Ernest John CARPENTER, Sugar Loaf, Stannum, grazier
Job Ernest CARPENTER, Sugar Loaf, Stannum, grazier
Mary Josephine CARPENTER, Tenterfield Street, Deepwater, home duties
Maud Rebecca CARPENTER, Bolivia, home duties
Sarah CARPENTER, Sugar Loaf, Stannum, home duties.
I can see Mary Josephine CARPENTER, Tenterfield Street Deepwater on the various rolls up to and including the 1949 roll.
JM
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I can see Mary Josephine CARPENTER, Tenterfield Street Deepwater on the various rolls up to and including the 1949 roll.
JM
Thanks JM. I think this Mary J is Mary Josephine (Byrne) Carpenter who married MY Mary J's brother Thomas Carpenter in 1906.
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"..Family records have Mary still in Uralla in 1905 but then she disappeared".
What are these records? How is Mary identified to be in Uralla?
Records = Stories passed down from generation to generation…. I have all the info and docs I need on the rest of the family; both parents and all other siblings.I have Mary's birth certificate but cant find a marriage or death certificate. Family say she ran away.
[/quote]
Was Mary mentioned on her father's death certificate?
Regards
Jennaya
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Hi,
I am just harking back to wivenhoe's comment about Sarah's death certificate.
It seems to me likely that Phoebe FRASER, (nee CARPENTER) who was the woman referred to in the obituary, was the person who informed for the making out of the certificate.
You will of course know if this is the case or if it was another.
As the eldest in the family, she would have had a good perspective on events and in completing the certificate details, would have been asked whether each sibling is living or deceased.
What was her reply in the case of Mary?
Sue
Are you able to answer this question?
Quoting from the death certificate?
Sue
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Mariel Mariel
I don't know if this will help you I was looking at birth under Mary J Carpenter as a mother only on the following birth's hope this might help
CARPENTER VIOLET L L
27044/1906
MARY
NOWRA
CARPENTER Stella
8326/1913
Mary Jane
Shoalhaven
CARPENTER MARGARET P
47375/1917
MARY J
NOWRA
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Excellent questions from Robert :)
May I add a further question please :) From Mary's own birth certificate, what does the 'J' stand for?
JM
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Excellent questions from Robert :)
May I add a further question please :) From Mary's own birth certificate, what does the 'J' stand for?
JM
Birth cert only has Mary J. I suspect it would be Jane as this was her paternal grandmothers name.
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Was she mentioned on the death certificates of either parent?
Regards
Jennaya
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Hi,
May I please add to Jennaya’s and Sue’s and Wivenhoe’s questions about Job and Sarah CARPENTER’s death certificates and how Mary is noted on those records. I think those questions are far and away more important than my additional question, so please address theirs first, and only address mine once you have some spare moments.
You mentioned earlier that you have all the info for Mary J Carpenter’s siblings … so can you please look at each of her younger siblings birth certificates to confirm how she is recorded on each one…. Particularly if her second name is given…
1901, Inverell, Selby # 13467
1899, Inverell, Dolly #31189
1897, Inverell, Ruby #12973
1895, Uralla, Albert, #8236
1892, Armidale, Arthur, #4404
1890, Uralla, Pearl, #34646
I have not found the family in Uralla in 1905 but I have found them perhaps 100 miles or more north of Uralla as per the Sands directory - I posted the info earlier, Job, on the Bonanza Farm. :)
Can you have a ‘forensic’ study on Mary’s birth certificate please, are you sure that in the section for her name that it has ‘J’ … could it be an ink bleed or spill or perhaps it is the letter ‘I’ rather than ‘J’ … The heading for that column will read : Name and whether present or not. It is very unusual for an initial to be included in that column in that era. The online index does not include any initial for her birth registration . :)
JM
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Can you have a ‘forensic’ study on Mary’s birth certificate please, are you sure that in the section for her name that it has ‘J’ … could it be an ink bleed or spill or perhaps it is the letter ‘I’ rather than ‘J’ … The heading for that column will read : Name and whether present or not. It is very unusual for an initial to be included in that column in that era. The online index does not include any initial for her birth registration . :)
JM
I don’t have full birth certificates only record numbers from BDM NSW.
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I don’t have full birth certificates only record numbers from BDM NSW.
Mary was born 14 Feb 1889 in Uralla NSW. She was 6/13 children of Job Carpenter and Sarah Billington. The family story about Mary is that when she was 16 she went to town one day and never came back. The belief was that she was living with a miner or ran away with the circus. Really? No-one looked for her or reported her missing? Would have been about 1905. I cannot find any trace of her other than her birth certificate. Can anyone help?
"..Family records have Mary still in Uralla in 1905 but then she disappeared".
What are these records? How is Mary identified to be in Uralla?
Records = Stories passed down from generation to generation…. I have all the info and docs I need on the rest of the family; both parents and all other siblings.I have Mary's birth certificate but cant find a marriage or death certificate. Family say she ran away.
[/quote]
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Birth cert only has Mary J. I suspect it would be Jane as this was her paternal grandmothers name.
...............................
Sorry, but I am unable to reconcile several pieces of info from some of your posts, including the ones I have included above, and I again note that the NSW BDM online index does NOT include the initial 'J' in its listing for the birth registration of Mary, daughter of Job and Sarah CARPENTER, registered in the NSW BDM district of Uralla. Ref #31471/1889.
The index is simply that, an index, - currently for online ordering purposes the NSW BDM has it set up as a database - but it is still an index, so it is only actually a summary ... a pointer to the actual official document upon which it is based.
Do you have the death certificates for Job and/or Sarah ... Mary's parents?
JM ADD I have just added the quote from reply #23, it is 8:18 am NSW time, I have added it here to keep it all together. Sue has already asked the question about the letter J in her reply #28, which was posted before I added that quote.
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A couple of thoughts come to mind here.
Curiosity- where did the idea of the middle initial J come from?
Perhaps you have another record (other than family chat ;)) which uses that J.??
Also, if I may ask, have you sighted any actual certificates which have formed the basis of the search.
Such a worthwhile investment for setting family history on an accurate path.
Sue
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I have added to my post at Reply #27 after reading Sue's post #28. I added the extract from reply #23.
JM
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:) :) :)
The online index for NSW BDM births has TWO birth registrations for 1889 that are of interest here.
Mary CARPENTER, parents as Job and Sarah, and ref 31471, district of Uralla.
and
Mary J CARPENTER, parents as Hughes J and Mary A, and ref 12500. Mary J Carpenter's district is shown as Newtown, a suburb of Sydney.
ADD, Sands Sydney Directory for 1890 has a Hughes CARPENTER of Sydney St, Macdonaldtown as an engineer. Macdonaldtown was within the NSW BDM district of Newtown in that era.
JM
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I am still an amateur at genealogy research and I dont want to waste your valueable time. if you feel my information is invalid or unconfirmed, I understand and you are probably right. The information (including the initial J) came from the website Genealogy.com where a distant family member, Rod Carpenter (I believe he passed away recently) was compiling facts for the book he wrote "From Simple Beginnings – New England and Beyond", I cant find a copy of the book (which may have been self published) but Rod is thanked and named in another family history book "From Servitude to Freedom" written by Merv Webster - another branch of the family. I apologise if I have misled anyone but it was not intentional.
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No need to apologise, but please do consider seeking out the official transcriptions of your Mary's birth certificate, and also of her parents death certs and at least the birth certificate of her youngest sibling.
Mary and all her then living siblings should be named and her then age noted on her parents' certificates if she was not known by the informant/s to be deceased at those times.
Good advice here for researching in NSW https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history-research/family-history-research-nsw.aspx
NSW BDM official transcriptions :
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyhistory Scroll down to the section 'Ask a transcription Agent'. These three are all excellent, you do not need to try to read the handwriting on those older records. They have been official transcribers for years.
JM
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Thank you JM. Do you have to pay for official transcriptions? Unfortunately I dont have the funds to pay for genealogy websites or official birth certificates or documents so can only gather information that is free. This is a very large family; but I believe it has been well researched by others. I have been in contact with another author, Sharon Froome, who published the book "Pioneers of the Inverell District" in 2013; but she didn't have any more copies of the book. She is willing to give me more information but is currently travelling and wont be home until Christmas. She was however familiar with my family history and hopefully will be able to shed some light on whatever happened to Mary.
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Hi Mariel,
Yes, you would need to pay for the services of a transcription agent.
Here is one of the many reliable and experienced services. Offering a Christmas special ;D
http://nswtranscriptions.com.au/pages/our_services/our_services.php
Relying on the foundation work of others in you family history search can be a serious trap because any erroneous information is simply re-recorded as fact.
If you do not see documentary evidence to support a family tree or family story, be skeptical and cautious.
The internet (and indeed the world of other published material) is riddled with 'false facts' which gather strength as they are perpetuated :D
Sue
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Hi Mariel,
I agree with Sue's advice. If your family gives Christmas or birthday gifts, perhaps you could ask for a certificate or two as a gift.
Most public libraries have Ancestry and/or Find My Past subscriptions that you could use for free in the library.
Family stories can have lots of truth, half truths or actual fabrications that have been passed down. In my own family the story has been passed down about a young lad who didn't return home from school one day and was never seen again. I was able to verify this as there were advertisements in the paper for acouple of months afterwards where the family were asking if anyone has seen him. He never showed up.
If you know the descendants of other branches of the family, or the eldest child's family - you may hear a different version. Could be worth asking.
Regards
Jennaya
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I have taken on board ALL of the advice offered here. Can someone please tell me what sort of information I am likely to get from a transcription? I didn't know this service was available and I'm wondering, if I were to get just one transcription, which certificate would have the most information?
- Mary's birth certificate b.1889 might have her middle name but little else;
- her youngest brothers' birth or death certificate b.1901 d.1911 age 10, 6 years after she disappeared; is it likely to have siblings listed?
- Marys' father Job d.1927; would it list alll children, alive or dead or only those known to the informant?
- Mary's mother Sarah d.1935; would all children be listed?
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Hi Muriel
JM is the certificate expert and will be able to tell you what is on a certificate. The transcriptions have exactly the same information as the certificate. It's copied and typed up rather than the original writing.
Death certificates are only as accuarate as the informants knowledge. So look at who the informant was, ie a surviving spouse would perhaps know more than a child of the deceased. Death certificates should have all children of the marriage listed and whether living or dead. Birth certificates should have all older siblings and ages listed, as well as whether they are living or deceased.
Regards
Jennaya
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- Mary's birth certificate b.1889 might have her middle name but little else;
The birth is indexed as just Mary CARPENTER, if there was a middle name on the registration it would be indexed.
The death cert of her father may tell you if she was still living in 1927. I know that some people have acquired death certs which name female children with their married surnames but I have not had one myself and do not know how common that was.
Debra :D
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Thank you Robert but Mary and May were two seperate people; it was a large family. Mary b. 1889 May b. 1894 and died same year.
There is no birth registration for a 'May' CARPENTER. How have you determined the age of the child who died in 1894?
Debra :D
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This link will show you what you may expect to find on NSW BDM certificates.
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
If I were choosing I would probably get Job's death certificate. There is a good chance the informant was his still-living wife or, at least,that the information was sourced from her, so has a greater chance of being correct.
The birth of Mary's closest brother could have been informed for by any family member and their knowledge could be unreliable.
My opinion only!
Sue
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I agree with Sue, Job Carpenter's death certificate is likely to have the family history information as per his wife, Sarah. As the index for Mary's birth in 1889 has Job and Sarah for her birth, and as Sarah was alive when Job died late December 1926, it is likely Sarah would be the informant on Job's death.
NSW BDM website here :
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history-research/registry-records.aspx
shows us that since 1856, that death certificates (and thus official transcriptions of those d.c.) should include:
the deceased's
Full name, sex, age, date & place of death, place of residence, occupation and marital status.
Place of marriage, age when married, full name of spouse. Children's name and ages. Parents' names and mother's maiden name.
Cause of death and duration of last illness. Burial or cremation date and place.
I agree with Dundee, it is rare that the married surname of the adult child of the deceased is recorded but the (Christian) names of the living and their then ages are given in chronological order,
If I had enough spare pennies to order two official transcriptions during the special offer period, for second choice and taking on board Sue's thoughts re a child providing the rego info, I would give serious consideration to ordering Dolly CARPENTER's birth cert... she married and became Mrs ONSLOW and *** is mentioned in Job's obit. Dolly's birth is after May's 1894 death... so we should learn several critical aspects from Dolly's b.c. :)
So,
My first preference :
Job CARPENTER NSW BDM death cert reference #2542/1927
My second preference, if enough pennies available :
Dolly CARPENTER, NSW BDM birth cert reference # 31189/1899
JM *** My grey cells are falling over today, I cannot verify my own statement re where I learnt that Mrs F ONSLOW was Job's daughter... I will re-enrol in family history 101 at this rate ;D ;D
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https://www.familysearch.org/search/
:) I usually avoid the genealogies side to the above website, but I have just looked, and someone has a submitted tree with and there's 'J' as though it is her middle name ... and there's 13 children for Job and Sarah... These submitted trees can be so very misleading, especially for those who are actually keen to learn about their actual family history rather than just a 'perhaps probably' version.
Familysearch genealogies submitted tree (submitted 12 May 2011) has Job and Sarah’s offspring as:
Phoebe 1879-1944
George 1881-1919
Job Ernest 1882-1950
Thomas 1885-1929
Ernest John 1887-1954
Mary J 1889-
Pearl 1890-1974
Arthur 1892-1957
May 1894-1894
Albert 1895-1963
Ruby 1897-1959
Dolly 1899-1973
Selby 1901-1911
Re May, that submitted tree has her birth 14 February 1894, Uralla, and her death ‘about 1894 Uralla’. There's no such birth noted on the NSW BDM online index... I have checked carefully, as I am sure that many of our regular RChatters have also done...
NSW BDM as Mary’s birth as 14 February, but in 1889, and at Uralla.
NSW BDM has May’s death as 17 June 1894, at Armidale.
JM
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May was 5 years old when she died in June 1894. :'( :'(
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/188984229 Armidale Express 19 June 1894.
Diphtheria.—At the infectious hospital on Friday afternoon last Dr. Murray performed the operation of tracheotomy on May Carpenter, a little girl five years of age, suffering from diphtheria. The operation was successfully carried out, and the little patient gave hopeful signs of recovery; but the shock to the system proved too great, and she succumbed to the dire malady on Sunday morning, notwithstanding the skill and attention devoted to her.
To me, Mary born 1889 and May who succumbed aged just 5 years, in 1894 are one and the same person.
JM :'( :'(
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May was 5 years old when she died in June 1894. :'( :'(
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/188984229 Armidale Express 19 June 1894.
Diphtheria.—At the infectious hospital on Friday afternoon last Dr. Murray performed the operation of tracheotomy on May Carpenter, a little girl five years of age, suffering from diphtheria. The operation was successfully carried out, and the little patient gave hopeful signs of recovery; but the shock to the system proved too great, and she succumbed to the dire malady on Sunday morning, notwithstanding the skill and attention devoted to her.
To me, Mary born 1889 and May who succumbed aged just 5 years, in 1894 are one and the same person.
JM :'( :'(
Ahh. Well dug out that one ;D
So I wonder whether the birth certificate of the child following Mary/May (1889) would confirm matters. Or would a later child make it clearer?
Sue
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Queensland BDM have the following two births registered.
Job Carpenter, parents Sarah Billington and Job Carpenter 18/6/1887 C2776
Thomas Carpenter, parents Sarah Billington and Job Carpenter 17/1/1885 C2565
Regards
Jennaya
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Mariel Mariel
I don't know if this will help you I was looking at birth under Mary J Carpenter as a mother only on the following birth's hope this might help
CARPENTER VIOLET L L
27044/1906
MARY
NOWRA
Marriage: 5739/1934
RANCK
JOHN
CARPENTER
VIOLET L
NOWRA
Readily Available
5739/1934
RANCK
GEORGE J
CARPENTER
VIOLET L
NOWRA
CARPENTER Stella
8326/1913
Mary Jane
Shoalhaven
Marraige:
Marriade: 3882/1932
FENTON
ROY V
CARPENTER
STELLA
INVERELL
CARPENTER MARGARET P
47375/1917
MARY J
NOWRA
Death:
CARPENTER MARY
4372/1930
VIOLET J
NOWRA
Hope all this help you Mariel Mariel