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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: prairiegypsy on Saturday 14 December 19 09:52 GMT (UK)
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I was raised being told my paternal great grandparents were English Gypsies. My grandmother told me her parents would not allow her to marry my grandfather for 13 years (until they left England and came to America) because his parents were Gypsies. And there were many other stories.
I have discovered several generations of ancestors who appear that they could have been Gypsies or Travellers based on their occupations: hawkers, tinkers, mat makers, general dealer, umbrella maker. And they intermarried with only a few families with names like Richardson, Smith and Loveday. Many of the females were named Kezia.
Most lived in Rutland and some in Islip and Cottingham, Northamptonshire. Surnames were Browett, Blades, Frisby, Mitchell, Sculthorpe, Woodcock, Sharman, Wright.
Now here’s what I don’t understand. According to my DNA testing, I’m 97% English and 3% Irish. So it seems unlikely my family’s “Gypsies” were Romany or even Irish Travellers.
So what makes someone a Gypsy (or Traveller) if they weren’t Romany or Irish? Did families sometimes "choose" to call themselves Gypsies and live the "lifestyle" for any variety of reasons?
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As far as I am aware, no one has ever been allocated a percentage of “gypsy” ethnicity. Those ethnicity estimates, are just that, an estimate, and a very rough one at that, and are compared to a small database of others who have an alleged ancestry paper trail from specific regions.
You are not supposed to take them too literally.
There are many articles online about this and their test samples such as https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/1/28/18194560/ancestry-dna-23-me-myheritage-science-explainer
If your paper trail leads to “gypsy” ancestors then that is what you should rely on rather than your percentages.
There have been a number of threads here on rootschat about gypsies and I will leave it to you to research that as it is not within my realm of knowledge. If you go to the dark bar at the top of the page and enter “gypsy” or gypsies” into the search box, you will see other threads on the subject.
:)
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For legal purposes, being classed as a "Traveller" depends on lifestyle rather than ethnicity (but excludes circus performers, show-people etc ).
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See this site
https:www.ourmigrationstory.org.uk/oms/romani-gypsies-in 16th-century-britain
It seems they stemmed from immingants known as Egyptians.. or Romano Egyptians who arrived in Britain in 1500's. There was a lot of immigration at this time...
I have Smiths from Warks. and Leics. in my tree but there were also gypsies surnamed Smith ( eg. Evening Smith) )
christened in same church as my folk( who weren't gypsies as far as I know).
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Which company did you take your DNA test with? Have you uploaded your raw data to other sites to see what ethnic percentages they allocate?
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G/grands are not too far back, have you managed to trace the line back & further from BMDs/census' to find out whether there's any truth in the stories as this may have been a 'story' to cover up illegitimacy or something else?
Annie
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Both Ancestry and 23andMe. Both had identical results. No, I haven't uploaded the raw data. I'm also extremely fair skinned with freckles and light eyes (as were my grandparents) so it's just hard to imagine Romany ancestry.
Also, my Gypsy ancestors did not appear to travel as most everyone was born in the same couple of towns. After reading several articles including those in this thread, I'm starting to think they self-defined as Gypsies for reasons (and a history) that I just don't know.
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Annie, yes I've traced them back a couple hundred years but I only know the occupations from when census's were taken. My 3rd great-grandmother had four illegitimate children but she ultimately married the children's father, Henry Browett of Rutland, and all of the children had the surname Browett.
My great-grandfather was given the middle name Browett and several other family members for several generations were also given the middle name Browett. I was told my great-grandfather was closely related to the head of the tribe. I now presume that was my 3rd great grandfather, Henry Browett, for whom the other Browetts seem to have been named after.
What I don't know and likely will never know is "why" they were Gypsies if they were not Romany or Irish Travellers (which they don't appear to be but I can't know for sure).
Since my grandmother was not allowed to marry into the family while she lived in England, I have no doubt they were considered Gypsies. I just have the curiosity of WHY the family defined themselves as Gypsies. Or perhaps some people were simply called Gypsies because they were considered unacceptable by society at the time? :-[
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Yes, it is hard to know what is true, partly true, or not true, when it comes to family stories. :)
Have you made contact with any of your DNA matches to see if they have similar stories of gypsies in their families?
Gypsy might have been used as a general term in your family rather a literal use of the word, but if your paperwork indicates “gypsy” don’t let the DNA results sway you.
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Ruskie, yes, I once spoke with a third cousin who said she aware there was "something" (negative) with the family, but her father would not speak about it because "the children" (my generation) were not to ever know.
That was years ago. I think I will look into other DNA connections. Thanks Ruskie!
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Ruskie, yes, I once spoke with a third cousin who said she aware there was "something" (negative) with the family, but her father would not speak about it because "the children" (my generation) were not to ever know.
That was years ago. I think I will look into other DNA connections. Thanks Ruskie!
:) Makes you all the more determined to find out doesn’t it. ;)
Are there any older generations still alive who may be able to help? Things that may have been shocking years ago, are probably of little consequence these days. Older generations will realise that and may be willing to talk to you?
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We've seen on RC, BCs where the child was born in a caravan or field & siblings born in several different locations which would identify with being of gypsy people.
I've known of people who were not gypsies who travelled around selling their wares or working on/at different occupations away from their home town whatever it may be just to make a living as it was what had to be done.
Do you have children born in caravans or fields?
Your family may have earned the name 'gypsy' by others just because they associated with gypsies, who knows?
I agree with Ruskie, getting in touch with your matches may yield some info?
Annie
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Unfortunately no, there are no older generations alive to tell the story. I am now the older generation. ;D I actually think the "thing" they were not supposed to talk about was simply the fact that there were Gypsies in the family. Although that's a non-issue (but interesting) to me, it was clearly a huge, life-changing issue for my grandparents and their families in England.
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My only other suggestion is to check out the neighbours of your 'gypsy' ancestor on census records which may give a clearer picture?
Annie
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Good ideas from Annie to check the neighbours on the censuses and the addresses of children’s births. It could all add up to paint a bigger picture.
I don’t know much about the subject, but I thought that gypsies married within fairly narrow family boundaries, so perhaps your grandfather’s family were against the marriage as much as your grandmother’s family?
Have you looked at your surnames and locations to see if they are known gypsy surnames? I think there are lists somewhere though my quick searches haven’t yielded much.
Something I should have asked earlier ..... what percentages of what ethnicities would you expect to see if your grandfather’s family were gypsies? For what the percentages are worth 97% English and 3% Irish may not exclude that probability.
Added: Have you traced both your grandmother and grandfather’s lives in England? What ages were they when they eventually married?
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Have you checked out the husband of couple who had to wait 13 yrs to marry?
What was he & his family doing prior, where was he born, what was his & fathers' occs?
Have you seen images of baptisms/births/censuses for specifics as I don't think a census transcription would tell if someone was born in a caravan or field but a baptism or birth may do, I've seen it on RC, I just can't recall which doc. gave the info?
Annie
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Some information on American gypsies:
http://www.gypsyloresociety.org/additional-resources/gypsy-and-traveler-culture-in-america
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Ruskie, my Gypsy ancestors did intermarry with only a few other families -- the Smiths, Richardsons and Lovedays. (My original post goes into some detail.) The family's surnames were Browett, Blades, Frisby, Mitchell, Sculthorpe, Woodcock, Sharman, Wright.
I am hoping someone more knowledgeable than me will tell me if these are Gypsy/Traveller names.
Yes, I've traced my grandparents' lives in England. They met and begin "walking out together" at age 16. It was my grandmother who told me her family wouldn't allow a marriage because of my grandfather's Gypsy lineage. In 1919, when my grandparents were 27 (and still not married), they sailed from Southampton to New York. They married in 1920 at the age 28.
As to the ethnicity percentages, I assumed there would be something indicating possible Romany heritage or a greater percentage of Irish ancestry, but I actually understand little about it and am probably misguided. ;D
I'm not doubting the Gypsy heritage in my family. I believe there is sufficient evidence. I'm just wishing I knew what kind of Gypsies/Travellers they were. I guess my original question, "What makes someone a Gypsy?," is more philosophical than literal. Thanks for your help!
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Dear friends who've responded to my post, "So what makes someone a Gypsy or Traveller?"
I BELIEVE I HAVE MY ANSWER! Thanks to all of you and especially Erato who posted this link:
http://www.gypsyloresociety.org/additional-resources/gypsy-and-traveler-culture-in-america
This website explains there are many, many kinds of Gypsies and Travellers, not just Romany and Irish Travellers as I mistakenly thought. I was thinking much too narrowly. I was trying to lump "my Gypsies" into either the Romany or Irish camps, and they didn't seem to fit in either.
Thanks again to everyone, and HAPPY HOLIDAYS! :D
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Upload your raw data to My Heritage, FTDNA and Gedmatch to see if you have different ethnicity results and different matches. I think you need to pay a small sum to open all the features of My Heritage and FTDNA, but it would be worth doing so I think.
Buy some birth certificates to check addresses and occupations of parents.
Make note of the various addresses and occupations of your families on each census.
Try to find a "gypsy surnames" list. I know there are some but I have not been able to find it (though I only did superficial googling). :)
Good luck.
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In case you are interested in uploading to My Heritage, it looks like they have a limited free offer on the features they normally charge for:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=822657.0
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Prairiegypsy, I'm half Romany gypsy and my ancestors were Sharmans, Roberts, Bexell's, Brazil's, Clarks. DNA shows matches also with Smiths and Lee's.
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I think it is what you feel you are. My grandparents were travellers gypsies and showmen but I have allways lived in houses or static trailers. I have lived in over 100 properties since I was born, I just cannot stay in one place. As far as DNA is concerned I am about 50% English and 50% Celtic on one site but nearly 100% Celtic on another. Mostly Scottish, and Irish, the rest Cornish and Welsh. As far as family trees are concerned mine didnt make much sense at first, but with a lot of detective work it does. My Bryan name isn`t even correct, my fathers was different, Bryant my grandfathers different again, Bryan or maybe o`Brien his father and the correct name being Bryden / McMurtrie travellers from Scotland. They married into the Ellis traveller families from Ireland and Wales, who moved over to Yorkshire. On my mothers side they were Atkinson Oliver Lee Harrison originally from Scotland to Durham to Yorkshire, and Cornwall to South East moving up through Norfolk, Yes Cottingham and Rutland are on their travels. So don`t solely rely on DNA or family trees. What family have told you is far more reliable, but that too isn`t allways gospel. Its how you feel.