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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Roscommon => Topic started by: GRO10a852 on Tuesday 17 December 19 12:19 GMT (UK)
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I have a John Audley who entered Alms House Hospital in New York aged 73 in January 1894. The record of his entry states that he was born in County Roscommon Ireland and that his father was a Butcher Unfortunately the record does not give his fathers name.
I know from other American records that John’s wife was called Catherine Madden and they emigrated from Ireland, arriving in America in October 1851 with a young son. John Audley is recorded in the US censuses as being a blacksmith.
I believe they had two sons before emigrating to America both Christened at Kilteevan, Roscommon, Ireland namely a John Audly (sic) christened 5th May 1848 ( I believe he died before the family emigrated) and a Francis Audly (sic) christened 28th September `1850, who emigrated with his parents to America and it is this Francis Audley who is recorded on his fathers admission papers to to the Alms House Hospital.
I know John Audley had a father who was a butcher. Can any body guide me to how I would find a Butcher in County Roscommon Ireland, who had the Audley surname or a variant spelling of that surname?
Thanks for any help
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passenger ship Hibernia in 1851
John Audley 26, Frances Audley (Baby only months old), Catharin Audley 24
also a Mary Madden aged 34, Honora Madden age 24, Cecelia Madden aged 19, Ann Madden aged 9, Thomas Madden aged 14.
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Hi rathmore,
Many thanks for reply to my message.
Please accept my apologies for not making it clear that I am trying to find references to this Audley family in Ireland prior to them emigrating to America. I have a lot of information about the family in America including their date of arrival and the Name of the ship on which they arrived.
Sorry for not making it clear what I was really after
Regards
Brian
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You mention the family came from Kilteevan in Roscommon. That’s likely the RC parish of Kilkeevan. Their baptism and marriage records start in the early 1800s. I can find no trace of a marriage.
Griffiths Valuation for 1857 has 4 Audley households (2 x Francis, 1 by Jane & 1 Henry). All were in Roscommon town. Henry looks to have died in 1865 aged 47. Can’t say what happened to the others.
I searched the 1901 census and did not find a single Audley in the county.
Slaters directory for Roscommon town in 1846 lists 5 butchers, plus 5 in Castlerea. None named Audley.
https://www.failteromhat.com/slaterc.htm
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Someone else has a thread about this Audley family-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=809278.0
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If the Audley butcher remained in Ireland and died post-1864 his death should have been registered. A man's occupation was usually stated.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en
I don't see any likely death registrations in any district in County Roscommon.
https://www.swilson.info/index.php is useful for identifying registrations districts, civil and ecclesiastical parishes &c.
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You might want to widen searches for farmers as some also did butchering and since they wouldn't have had premises in a village or town are unlikely to be listed as a butcher in any directories.
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The Catholic parish is Roscommon and Kilteevan
The two Civil Parishes are Roscommon and Kilteevan
Francis’ baptism shows Henry Audley as Godparent
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633981#page/123/mode/1up
Griffiths Valuation shows Jane Audley, Francis Audley and Henry Audley in Roscommon town
https://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/roscommon/roscommon.htm
As Elwyn Souter writes, Henry died in 1865 aged 47 yrs but the record is not yet online. You could send for it though.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01oqn/
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Thanks to all for your replies; I have spent the day with the grand children and have only just got home and am now able to respond to all your kind messages.
Elwyn Soutter I mentioned that they came Kilteevan because I found, by chance the baptism records I referred to in my initial message in Kilteevan Parish Registers, the names seemed to match the family that emigrated to America. Now having found the additional record in America that John entered Alms House Hospital and that record states that he was born in County Rosscommon makes it more certain that he came from Roscommon. The new information also suggests that John's father was a butcher, hence my original message.
I would think that the 5 references to the Audley Surname in the Griffiths valuation of Ireland must be in some way related to my John Audley. The Francis Audley in the Griffiths valuation leased a forge and a yard. It is unfortunate that he did not show up in Slaters directory.
aghadowey yes I agree someone else appears to have posted about the same family. They were looking for the marriage between John Audley and Catherine Madden, and it appears that the thread found no reference to that marriage. This ties in with what Elwyn Soutter says as he cannot find a record of the marriage
You also suggest widening the search to include farmers. Surely farmers would be included in the Griffith Valuation but there appears to none in County Roscommon. Also I have yet to find a farmer listed in the Slaters Directory suggested by Elwyn.
Maidenstone as Heyward indicates the only death I can find post 1864 is that of Henry Audley who died in 1865 aged 47 suggesting he was born in 1818. As my 'best guess' is that John Audley was born about 1825. This would make Henry 7 years older than John, perhaps they were brothers.
Haywood You say that Henry was the Godparent to Francis Audley baptised in 1850 in Kilteeven again supporting the evidence that Henry Audley could be the brother of John Audley.
Since my initial message I have been looking through some old family history papers one of these papers seems to suggest that there were eleven Church baptisms in County Roscommon between 1821 and 1850 unfortunately I do not know from which website the information originates.
The list includes:
A John Audley baptised in 1821 in County Roscommon
A John Adly baptised in 1825 in County Roscommon
A John Peter Audly baptised in 1836 in County Roscommon
A John Adly baptised in 1839 in County Rosscommon
Can any body suggest a source?
Thanks for all your help
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Ireland select births and baptisms
Roscommon and Kilteevan
Joannam Adly. (Probably Jane) female
12 Aug 1839
Father: Joannis Adly
Mother: Joannae Sharky
Bridgiddam Audlys
5 Nov 1837
Father: Jacobi Audlys
Mother: Bridgiddae Mc Avery
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Marriages Catholic Parish Registers
Roscommon and Kilteevan
Bartholomew Audty and Brigida Reed
November 1828
Maria Audly and Petrin Samell
February 1822
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Griffiths also has a Francis Audly in Roscommon town. He has plot 7 in Church St which is a garden only (ie no house). So he’s probably one of the other two Francis in the town (Church St & Church Lane), with a garden slightly distant from his house.
The Jane who appears in in Abbeytown has a house only. She’s possibly a widow. Single women did appear in Griffiths but more often than not women tended to be widows.
The only Audley/Audly death in the Roscommon town civil registration area 1864 – 1901 is Henry in 1865. The others therefore died before 1.1.1864, or moved away from that area. The Valuation revision books in the Valuation Office in Dublin should show when they ceased to be tenants of the various properties, but they normally won’t tell you why they are no longer listed. (Those records are not on line).
Most farmers should be in Griffiths. I agree there are none listed in the county.
I am not sure whether a rural butcher would be listed in Slaters. It's towns only.
Regarding the baptism records, it’s important to remember that not all parishes had records for the period you are interested in (ie John Audley born c 1825). For example Kilkeevin has records from 1804, but Roscommon & Kilteevan don’t start till 1820, Kilbride 1835, Clontuskett 1865. So it can be hit and miss.
I can see some Audley baptisms on a pay to view site. All are listed for Roscommon which would be Roscommon & Kilteevan RC.
John Audly & Joan Sharkey had:
Frances 27.12.1830; Edward 23.5.1828, Elizabeth 6.3.1834, John Peter 29.6.1836 & John 12.8.1839 (sponsor Henry Adley).
Henry Audely & Mary Bermingham had:
John 7.3.1821 (sp Mary Audley);
Margaret 16.2.1823 (sp Bartholomew Audley)
John Adly 13.9.1825 (sp John Adly)
Margaret 19.11.1826 (address of Pudding Lane)
Note: the first Margaret and first John probably died and the name was re-used for the second birth. Common practice then.
I did not see a Peter in 1836. These were the only baptisms in the whole county but as I say not every parish has records for 1820 - 1840.
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Heywood and Elwyn,
Thanks for your recent replies I am slowly wtiting your replies down and trying to compare them with what I have found on the mnotes I have discovered.
Many thanks
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Ireland select births and baptisms
Roscommon and Kilteevan
Joannam Adly. (Probably Jane) female
12 Aug 1839
Father: Joannis Adly
Mother: Joannae Sharky
I agree it looks like "Joannam" therefore female. Was godfather "Henrico Adly"? At first sight I thought it might have been Francisco. Godmother "Maria Milia" (Melia?).
Source: Catholic Parish Registers at the NLI; Roscommon and Kilteevan Parish, Diocese of Elphin.
https://registers.nli.ie
Baptism register begins 1837, marriage register 1820.
Neighbouring parishes are named on the map. Clicking on one brings up registers for that parish. A few have registers from earlier years e.g. Athleague baptisms, marriages and deaths registers from 1808. Some parishes have death registers for some years pre-dating the start of civil registration of deaths in 1864.
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I didn’t look it up Maiden Stone but now I have, yes I agree re Henrico. Henry was Godfather to Francis (of this thread) too.
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Maidenstone as Heyward indicates the only death I can find post 1864 is that of Henry Audley who died in 1865 aged 47 suggesting he was born in 1818. As my 'best guess' is that John Audley was born about 1825. This would make Henry 7 years older than John, perhaps they were brothers.
Haywood You say that Henry was the Godparent to Francis Audley baptised in 1850 in Kilteeven again supporting the evidence that Henry Audley could be the brother of John Audley.
Or possibly cousins.
A few Audley mentions in Roscommon newspapers, ignoring those about Lord Audley, the Audley Copper Mine in Cork and the popular novel "Lady Audley's Secret".
Francis Audley, "Roscommon Journal & Western Impartial Reporter", 20th April 1861. He may have been the one with a forge, as the news item is about a pump.
Audley father & son, no first names, "Roscommon Messenger", 31st Dec. 1864.
Bartholomew Audley, Roscommon Assizes; "Roscommon & Leitrim Gazette" 22nd March 1828.
Irish Petty Sessions records are on Find My Past. One of my shopkeeper relatives was fined for using incorrect weights. Farmer relatives were fined for straying animals and not buying dog licences. The Dog Licence Register is also on FindMyPast; I found this useful for locating some people between Griffiths' Valuation and 1901 census, e.g. my shopkeeper's eldest son and a son-in-law of one of my farmers each kept a dog.
U.S. newspapers read by Irish people sometimes carried messages from relatives in Ireland.
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Another set of records for 19thC Ireland is Poverty Relief Loans/ Irish Reproductive Loans Fund/Sustainability Loan Fund. These were micro credit schemes. Some records on Find My Past and Ancestry.
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The Roscommon & Leitrim Gazette of 22nd March 1828 reports the cases heard at Roscommon Assizes that week. One is a case Maiden Stone mentioned.
Bartholomew Audley was convicted of stabbing, and sentenced to 12 months imprisonment. No other identifying details are provided, so can’t say whether it’s the same Bartholomew who appears in the Roscommon baptism records. But it’s not a very common name, so it might be.
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For interest re previously mentioned
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WDT-W71
Francis Audley, died 1916 Bronx NY - parents John Audley and Jane Sharkey
Also John Audley - same parents
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2W1Q-XSW
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Eliza - same parents (although it says Jane Sharberg)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WXC-3SF
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Nothing for Audley in Tithe Applotment Books.
Calendars of Wills and Administrations 1858-1920 National Archives of Ireland
www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/search/cwa/home.jsp
None in Roscommon for Audley.
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Many thanks to all for all the fantastic information about the Audley Family in Roscommon. I believe they all must be related somehow. I am still trying to write up all this information into my Master file, which with all the information I have from America is approximately 40 pages long.
Just a few specific comments/ questions
Elwyn Soutter I think the paper list I found probably originated from the 'pay to view' website that you refer to as you appear to have struck a direct hit on all the baptisms that were on my paper list. In your message you say that you could not find the baptism of a John in 1836. I must have made an error as John's baptism was in 1939. I think Heywood found it but recorded it as Jane and Not John.
In your message you refer to the Parishes of Kilkeevin and Roscommon & Kilteevan. Are there really two parishes with such similar names (Kilkeevin and Kilteevin)?
Can I now be cheeky. The list I have on the piece of paper includes 4 marriages Haywood gave me two of them. Can you please check if the other two are on the website you refer to. The relevant marriages are:
A John Audley in 1825 and
A Michael Audley in 1850.
There appears to be a distinct lack of death and burial records compared to the number of birth. Were burials not recorded in Ireland.
I would like to see more information from the newspaper records of the various people with the Audley Surname in Roscommon, could those people who have given me the information please give me a link to the source.
Now an admission. I am going away tomorrow to spend Christmas with my son and his family so I will have to sign off now. I will get back to this thread in a weeks time. The information you have given me is overwhelming but keep it coming.
Many Thanks
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It was usually only the Church of Ireland that routinely recorded burials so it's not that common to find burials recorded.
For reference the 2 baptisms found for you yesterday on another forum-
https://irelandxo.com/ireland-xo/message-board/butcher
Find My Past (a pay site) have Irish newspapers in their collection.
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Just a few specific comments/ questions
Elwyn Soutter In your message you say that you could not find the baptism of a John in 1836. I must have made an error as John's baptism was in 1939. I think Heywood found it but recorded it as Jane and Not John.
In your message you refer to the Parishes of Kilkeevin and Roscommon & Kilteevan. Are there really two parishes with such similar names (Kilkeevin and Kilteevin)?
Can I now be cheeky. The list I have on the piece of paper includes 4 marriages Haywood gave me two of them. Can you please check if the other two are on the website you refer to. The relevant marriages are:
A John Audley in 1825 and
A Michael Audley in 1850.
I would like to see more information from the newspaper records of the various people with the Audley Surname in Roscommon, could those people who have given me the information please give me a link to the source.
Baptism register was in Latin. Sometimes transcribers mistake John for Jane and vice-versa as the Latin names both begin "Joan", followed by the masculine or feminine case ending. It's sometimes unclear whether a letter is "a" or "e" . Some priests abbreviated the Latin word for son or daughter to "f." or omitted it.
To see names of parishes on a map go to Catholic Parishes at National Library of Ireland and put Kilkeevin in the search box. You'll be able to see Kilteevan on the map not far away.
https://registers.nli.ie
John Audley 1825 marriage was in Athleague parish (FindMyPast free search). Easy to find in the marriage register on the National Library of Ireland Catholic Registers site. Look out for Joannes. Bride was a Sharkey ("Sharkee"). Note a witness was a Madden ("Maddin). Weddings were usually in the bride's parish.
Michael Audley 1850 marriage was in Boyle. I couldn't see it in the Boyle marriage register.
I used FindMyPast for newspaper articles. There are other newspaper collections, some indexed online.
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For reference the 2 baptisms found for you yesterday on another forum-
https://irelandxo.com/ireland-xo/message-board/butcher
IrelandXO website has an article "Irish Naming and Baptism Traditions" which you may find interesting. Click on "News" tab to find it. The article is currently on page 3.
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In your message you refer to the Parishes of Kilkeevin and Roscommon & Kilteevan. Are there really two parishes with such similar names (Kilkeevin and Kilteevin)?
There appears to be a distinct lack of death and burial records compared to the number of birth. Were burials not recorded in Ireland.
I would like to see more information from the newspaper records of the various people with the Audley Surname in Roscommon, could those people who have given me the information please give me a link to the source.
Yes there are 2 separate parishes of those names.
As Aghadowey has explained, RC burials mostly weren't recorded. Since statutory death registration (vital records) didn't start till 1864, there is often no record of someone who died before that unless there is gravestone or their death merited a mention in a newspaper.
I have access to a newspaper website which has many Irish newspapers (though not all). I have searched them for any other likely mentions of Audley + Roscommon but did not see anything else of interest.
We don't have the same range of 19th century records as exist in the US and elsewhere. Some were lost for various reasons and others never kept in the first place. It was quite possible to live most of your life then below officialdom's radar. A butcher who lived and died in Co. Roscommon in the first half of the 1800s could be a typical example.
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Marriages Catholic Parish Registers
Roscommon and Kilteevan
Bartholomew Audty and Brigida Reed
November 1828
Maria Audly and Petrin Samell
February 1822
Family Search has these records:
(Latin)
Mariam Audley and Petrum Farrell - makes more sense than the above transcription
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGJJ-6MP
Bartholomeus Audley and Brigida Reid
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGJW-15G
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Hi heywood,
Thanks for the clarification; now Christmas is over I am slowly working through all your messages and updating my master file for this family
I wish you all a great New Year
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Hope they help.
Happy New Year to you too :)
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Hi All,
On 22nd December 2019 at 20:27 hrs and at 20:30 hrs ‘Heywood’ gave links to 3 deaths in New York the parents of the indviduals who died are recorded as John Audley and Jane Sharkey (Sharberg) and I have been comparing these three death with the baptisms of the children of John Audley and Joan Sharkey given by ‘Elwyn Soutter’ in his message of 22nd December 2019 at 19:01 hrs
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The first link given by ‘heywood’ is to the death of a Francis (male) Audley on 28th August 1916 aged 75 giving a year of birth of 1840 or 1841; if the age at death is correct. Place of birth given as Ireland Mother’s name given as Jane Sharkey
‘Elwyn Soutter’ gives the baptism of a Frances (presumably female) the Child of a John Audly and Joan Sharkey as 27th December 1830.
Could someone please check this information and give me their thoughts on the following:
In the baptism records given by ‘Elwyn Soutter’ as they were written in Latin could the mothers name in the baptism records be Jane and not Joan?
In the baptism record for Frances (female) in 1830 is there any thing to indicate that the person being baptised could have been Francis (male) and not Frances (female)?
The death record for Francis indicates that he was born in 1840 or 1841, ten years later than the baptism record. Does this mean that the age of death is incorrect in the death record or is there another baptism record to be found in 1840 or 1841 for this Francis Audley?
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The second link given by ‘heywood’ is to the death of a John Audley on 11th December 1922 aged 75 giving a year of birth of 1846 or 1847; if the age at death is correct. Place of birth given as Ireland
‘Elwyn Soutter’ gives the baptism of a John the Child of a John Audly and Joan Sharkey as 12th August 1839.
Is the age at death in the death record incorrect or is there another baptism of a John Audley still to be found in Ireland in 1846 or 1847?
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The third link given by ‘heywood’ is to the death of a Eliza Audley on 19th March 1901 aged 52 giving a year of birth of 1848 or 1849; if the age at death is correct. Place of birth given as Ireland
‘Elwyn Soutter’ gives the baptism of an Elizabeth the Child of a John Audly and Joan Sharkey as 6th March 1834.
Is the age at death in the death record incorrect or is there another baptism of a Eliza (Elizabeth) Audley still to be found in Ireland in 1848 or 1849?
Please accept my apologises for questioning the information you have given me; I just want to sort out the details of this family
Many Thanks
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Elwyn Soutter’ gives the baptism of a John the Child of a John Audly and Joan Sharkey as 12th August 1839.
Elwin S has this from a subscription site, I think.
Family Search has a transcription of this as a female child.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5T6-SM8
The names are in Latin. Latin name suffixes vary according to gender and purpose.
The name will be Jane not Joan, I think.
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Elwyn Soutter’ gives the baptism of a John the Child of a John Audly and Joan Sharkey as 12th August 1839.
Elwin S has this from a subscription site, I think.
Family Search has a transcription of this as a female child.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5T6-SM8
The names are in Latin. Latin name suffixes vary according to gender and purpose.
The name will be Jane not Joan, I think.
Available for free on National Library of Ireland website. Catholic Parish Registers t NLI.
htttp://registers.nli.ie/about
Roscommon and Kilteevan parish. Baptism registers on NLI site begin 1837.
Baptisms in 1839 were arranged by priest, then by date. Interestingly, the priest who baptised the Adly baby was called Madden. Baptism is near top of page. Ending of the baby's forename is unclear. I read it as "Joannam" but it might not be. My transcription:
12th August 1839 Joannam Adly Joannis et Joannae Sharky.
[Sponsors] Henrico Adley et Maria Milia
(Note what appeared to me to be different spellings of the surname Adly/Adley in 2 lines in the same entry.)
Compare with Joannem/Joannam Connelly 11th Aug. and Joannem [?] Fahy 31st Aug. further down page and another Joannem/Joannam on previous page. Look at writing for baptisms of various Margaritam (Margaret, female, Patricium [?] (Patrick, male) &c. on those pages.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/parishes/0564
I reserve judgement as to gender of the baby baptised on 12th August 1839. There was no abbreviation for son or daughter. She may have been called Jane after her mother. Was she 3rd or subsequent daughter?
I've seen transcriptions of Latin baptism registers such as "John son of John & John" which was incorrect.
Both Jane and Joan are Joanna in Latin. The mother's name "Joannae" was written in the genitive case - "of Jane/Joan", i.e. signifying that the person being baptised was child of the woman named. A girl called Jane or Joan being baptised would be "Joannam", accusative case, the object of the (abbreviated) sentence.
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Thanks MS.
I looked in the registers first and couldn’t see it hence my search in FS. I was looking on right hand side under August ::)
By the way, your link didn’t work for me but I just looked as normal and found it.
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I doubt that the name would be a Joan - much more likely to be Jane or even Johanna/Joanna.
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Thanks to heywood & Maiden Stone for your additional comments.
I have tried working backwards from the death records in New York given by Heywood.
I have found an Eliza Audley in the 1900 US Federal Census in Manhatten, New York. There appears to be only one Eliza Audley in the 1900 census in the whole of New York State. In 1900 she is living in 'The Home for the aged of the Little Sisters of the Poor' her age is given as 65 and her month and year of birth looks like it could be Feb 1835 although it has been transcribed as 1855!! The date of birth of February 1835 ties in reasonably well with the baptism record given by Elwyn Soutter of 6th March 1834 (only a year out) but this suggests her age (55) in her death record is way out,
Also in the 1920 US Federal census I have found a John Audley age 75 in the Bronx, New York this could be the John Audley who died in 1922 who was noted by Heywood to have died in Manhatten in 1922. Interestingly in the 1910 census he is recorded as John P Audley. Elwyn Souter refers to the baptism of a John Peter Audley in 1836 and the baptism of a John Audley in 1939 parents John Audley and Joan (Jane ) Sharkey. Incidently the John Audley in the 1920 census has a daughter called Jane.
I feel I am slowly sorting this out but it is slow going
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Thanks MS.
I looked in the registers first and couldn’t see it hence my search in FS. I was looking on right hand side under August ::)
By the way, your link didn’t work for me but I just looked as normal and found it.
Added
I doubt that the name would be a Joan - much more likely to be Jane or even Johanna/Joanna.
It's not the first Irish register I've seen in which baptisms were arranged under priest's name for each year.
Joan seems imo to have been a name more popular in England than Ireland. Living in Roscommon in 1830s, she may have been known as something different at home.
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I have seen haphazard records but it is worth noting re the priest. Thanks Maiden Stone.
I agree re Joan as ‘more English’.
I searched for our Julia until I found her as Johanna. I was also taken aback at first re Judy but she was also Johanna. :) names vary.
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Might Joanna have been known as Ann/Anna/Annie to her family & friends? 2 of my Irish Anns were officially Honor/Honoria/Hanora.
Re age at death #reply 33. This was often inaccurate for Irish people of that era, especially if the death was reported by someone other than close family. Even family members may not have known exact age of deceased. Many ages on 1901 Irish census were wrong. The majority of my Irish ancestors born 1820-1860 had incorrect ages on Irish and most English censuses; some were a decade out. Stated age should be regarded as an estimate not a fact.
Birthdays weren't important. E.g. a cousin of mine didn't know the birthday of her Irish-born father and he was born in 20thC. Our grandmother's dates of birth are different on her birth registration and her baptism register.
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Hi Heywood and Maidenstone,
Many thanks for your last two replies I had always assumed that baptisms would be in date order it never occurred to me that each priest would maintain his own list in date order.
Thanks for all your help I an currently gaining more information about the descendants of John Audly and Joan (Jane ) Starkey who emigrate to America. I will be comming back to this thread as I update my master file.
Have a great 2020
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Hi Heywood and Maidenstone,
Many thanks for your last two replies I had always assumed that baptisms would be in date order it never occurred to me that each priest would maintain his own list in date order.
Some parishes might have contained several chapels, some with their own curates.
Some Irish R.C. registers are "in great disorder" as NLI website describes it.
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Hi All,
Just to let you know that I have now managed to obtain copies of the Roscommon Newspapers that refer to people with the Audley surname, that you mentioned in your replies.
Somebody mentioned that 'Irish Petty Sessions' are included in the 'FindmyPast'.website. I could not find any reference to an Audley in County Roscommon in the 'Irish Petty Sessions' Have I missed something?
THanks for all your help