RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Kerry => Topic started by: ailisgara3122 on Tuesday 17 December 19 16:45 GMT (UK)
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Hello!
I am seeking some help for information on my mysterious great-great grandfather John O'Neill.
He was born on 26 April 1886 in Cloghane, County Kerry.
He joined the RIC when he was 18, so that means some male family member was also serving since I was told a person had to be 19 in order to sign up.
On 8 January 1905 he was stationed in Hollymount, Mayo and married Josephine Loughlin whose father, James, was a retired Sergeant in the RIC.
These two dates come from John's natualization records but I cannot find any documents online to support this claim. I cannot find his marriage record in the online Civil Marriage records so I don't know his father's name. And the ages for him don't line up in the 1901 census for John O'Neill's in Cloghane.
He had a brother named Edmund who lived in Claremorris. He listed his brother as his contact in Ireland when he came to the U.S. in 1920 after serving in WWI in the 3rd Royal Irish Regiment.
I was able to find his discharge papers on findmypast.com which lists his birthdate and birth location.
I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions. Has anyone found that a 15 year old was listed as a 21 year old on a census?!
Thank you all for any help you could provide!
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It appears that he was in the RIC in June 1906 when daughter Mary was born: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1906/01736/1686228.pdf
However his army papers (starting 1909) state his civilian occupation as carman. There is a note of what looks like a marriage date but no detail:
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The normal RIC rules were that you had to have served 7 years before you were allowed to marry, so it would not normally be possible for a 19 year old policeman to have married (and remained in the force).
I don’t see a birth in 1886 in Cloghane, nor a marriage in 1905/6 in the civil records.
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He joined the RIC when he was 18, so that means some male family member was also serving since I was told a person had to be 19 in order to sign up.
Was he John O'Neill, RIC number 61257? The record shows his age as 20 years and 7 months on appointment 16 February 1903, It appears that he served in Mayo from October 1903 until he resigned in July 1909 ("disciplinary, charges admitted").
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In 1911 Josephine says she is married 6 years so 1904/5
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Hollymount/Main_Street/706253/
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Rootsireland has John & Josephine’s marriage, from the church records. It was on 8.1.1906 at Kilcommon & Robeen chapel, in Mayo. Josephine was O’Loughlin rather than Loughlin. Witnesses were Patrick & Maria O’Loughlin. John’s townland (address) was Hollymount. None for Josephine. No fathers names.
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This appears to be Josephine in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Hollymount/Hollymount_Town/1578566/
Wouldn't worry too much about the O appearing and disappearing.
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Possibly Patrick Loughlin (witness at the wedding, and presumably a close relation) in 1911:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Hollymount/Main_Street/706273/
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I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions. Has anyone found that a 15 year old was listed as a 21 year old on a census?!
Thank you all for any help you could provide!
I assume you are referring to this family
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kerry/Cloghane/Ballynalacken/1408233/
I think this is their son John born 14 July 1882
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1882/02765/2016283.pdf
which would give an age of 18/19 in 1901
Having trouble with the other children to check
There is a Jeremiah in 1885 to this couple but he would be a bit old, can't see a death for him but there is another Jeremiah in the area in 1889 but the link is connecting to the wrong image and I can't find the correct one.
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Thank you all for your help!
I was having an issue finding his birth records but I think the birth year he gave on his naturalization papers must be incorrect:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9M8-16TY?i=131&cc=1999177&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3A7QD8-J4ZM
and
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9M8-17DL?i=170&cc=1999177&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3A78JR-4SMM
and a typed up version:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9M8-1HFP?i=260&cc=1999177&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQPSK-RDLF
My family has known that Josephine O'Loughlin's father was in the RIC. The records I have found for John have service number 61257 so that is correct as far as I know! The only way I knew he was in the RIC was because he is listed as a Constable on his daughter's birth records and I know that is the correct daughter and parents.
But now that I have this new information on the 7 year requirement, I am confused. I wonder why his birthdate would be off by so many years.
The rootsweb document is especially interesting to me since it gives almost the same wedding date except for the year. Their daughter was born on 14 June 1906 so I always assumed the 8 January 1905 date was correct, but I had only taken what was on his above papers. So thank you so much for that information! I live in the U.S. and I am unable to get my credit card to work on that site which is a shame because I think it is an amazing resource!
Thank you all so much! I feel like I am on the right track now!
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The information on rootsireland is a transcript so there is always the possibility that it’s been transcribed incorrectly. You would need to check the original to be sure. (The parish priest should have that. You could write to the parish office and ask them to check).
There should also be a civil certificate but I can’t find one. The priest was supposed to send a civil certificate to the local registrar. Sometimes they didn’t bother. Some civil certificates are also indexed incorrectly which doesn’t help. That can be another reason why they are difficult to find.
My guess is that the 1906 marriage date is correct. Josephine would have been 3 months pregnant then, so that might be the reason they married. If John joined the RIC in 1903 he wouldn’t have done his 7 years. And perhaps marrying without approval got him into bother. But he was probably more bothered about the grief he was going to get from her father, if he didn't marry her!