RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Talacharn on Friday 03 January 20 17:57 GMT (UK)
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I posted this on the Carmarthenshire page and asked if it would be more appropriate to ask questions on the Travelling People page. A response suggested I copied this to the Travelling People page and link to the Carmarthenshire one:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=814423.new;topicseen#new (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=814423.new;topicseen#new)
On the Romanygenes website, it says on the page Boswells in Wales; Catherine Ann Boswell was born in Swansea Jul-Sep 1872. I am looking for a Catherine Ann(e) who married Daniel Evans, whose father Edwin Evans was in court alongside Samson Williams and Nelson Williams. I found in a newspaper article that Samson Williams was Samson Boswell, which made me think; if Samson Williams was born a Boswell, could Catherine Ann(e) be registered as a Williams?
Birth: Catherine Ann Williams
Neath Jul-Sep 1872 . Volume: 11a . Page: 558 . Line Number: 171
On the 1911 Census, Catherine was born in Swansea, but if they were travelling people, birth registration could easily be Neath.
I have also looked for newspaper articles for Nelson Williams and found two Census records. It is clear, they did not want to give any information; even his wife is called Nelson or N K and only by 1901 has the saying of Williams been mastered, though that might be the one collecting the information. I tried to find Nelson as a Boswell in Wales and England. There was nothing, though he might not have been a Boswell.
1901 Census: Llandilotalybont St Teilo . Llandeilo-talybont, Glamorgan
Nelson Williams . M . 40 (Est. 1861)
Nelson Williams . F . 39
Schedule Type: 145 . Page Number: 27
1891 Census: Llandilo Talybont
Nelson Willims . Head . M . 30 (Est. 1861) . Married . England . Basket Maker
N K Willims . Wife . F . England
RG12 . Piece/Folio: 4470/ 54 . Page Number: 25
Nelson Williams died in 1906, hit by a cyclist near Swansea.
If possible, I would like more information about Samson Williams/Boswell and family; Nelson Williams, who I assume had a previous surname. Also Edward/Edwin Evans, whose family I have traced, but now question if Evans was the name born with, or he adopted it in Wales.
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My Daniel Evans lived in a caravan all his adult life; and probably childhood as well as his father Edward/Edwin Evans was a Basket Maker. In the 1939 Register, he is in the 'Living Van' at Carmarthen, it seems having split from his second wife Martha Jane, but still claiming to be still married. His first wife, Catherine Ann(e) died in 1916. As for his marriage to Catherine, in the 1911 Census it says they had been married 19 years, but I have found no record. Being travellers, it could be anywhere, though I am assuming they never married.
Daniel was a Travelling Showman, selling products at fairs. I can only find him within the triangle of Llandovery, Aberavon and St. Clears. When in a gipsy encampment near Swansea he worked in the tin plate industry. I cannot imagine him being a groom.
There are two deaths, both in Carmarthen and both suggest a birth of 1871.
Death: Daniel Evans . Age: 69 (Est 1871)
Jan-Mar 1940 . Carmarthen
Volume: 11A . Page: 2737 . Line Number: 9
Death: Daniel Evans . Age: 87 (Est 1871)
Apr-Jun 1958 . Carmarthen
Volume: 8A . Page: 285 . Line Number: 126
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On the Travelling People page, I am hoping to find more information about Samson and Nelson Williams and Edward/Edwin Evans. I know Samson claims to have been born in Cwmavon, but reports from a court case says his name was actually Boswell. Where he was born may not be accurate either. Does anyone know of a Samson Boswell, or Nelson (possibly Boswell) both born around 1850, who left England? As for Edward/Edwin Evans, I feel he could also be from England, but have nothing more to go on.
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Daniel Evans born 1871 was my great grandfather and was indeed a travelling showman. Elizabeth Roberts his partner on 1939 census was my great grandmother. He was married to Catherine Boswell but I have never heard of him being married to a Martha? Edwin Evans his father I was told by my grandmother (Daniel's daughter) that he changed his name to help find work. I have been searching for years to try to find his real surname. There is a possibility he was in fact a Lee. He married Subie Lee who was Sampson Lee's Daughter.
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Hi Daisyday75
Welcome to Rootschat.
If you look through different threads on Rootschat, Daniel Evans is mentioned many times. Thanks to members, I am aware of his parents, though found his father’s name from the 2 marriage certificates.
You might be interested in another thread:
Herefordshire / Re: Zibiah Evans born Hereford
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=827648.msg6918107#msg6918107 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=827648.msg6918107#msg6918107)
I found the 1891 census where she is spelt Zibiah and posted the question. I felt it was the right family having come across Perrin B Williams before. Some of the members were great, taking the family back much further and linking it to the Lee family. The 1881 census was confusing as it suggested the children were born in Caernarvonshire.
I found the birth and baptism of two children (Matilda and Aran), but two are still unconfirmed. For Daniel I only have a baptism and nothing for the final child, though think his name was John.
Catherine Ann Evans (Boswell) died 13 Nov 1916 . 46
(Ref: Oct-Dec 1916 . Llanelly . Volume 11a . Page 1191)
Burial: Pembrey . Catherine Anne Evans . 13 Nov 1916 . 46 years . Ivor Roberts – Curate . Living Van – Foundry Field Burry Port
(Ref: Digital Folder Number: 004190760)
On 26 November 1917, in Carmarthen, he married Martha Jane Williams, the widow of Thomas Williams. They were my great-grandparents. His son Aran married their daughter Martha Jane Williams, 15 May 1918 in Haverfordwest, where the Williams family was based. Also within the above thread, Aran was registered Perran and baptised Perrin Lee.
In the 1939 Register, both Martha Jane Evans and Daniel Evans were living in Carmarthen. Both claim to be married, but not living together. She was at 18 Blue Street and he was in the Living Van. Also in the 1939 Register, it says Mayra, May Roberts was single. Mayra, May had been crossed out, with handwritten Elizabeth Mary added.
Regarding the ‘Officially Closed Records’, I searched for children for a Roberts and found a few, but did not go any further.
I could not find a marriage between them before 1939, though they could have married after. At present, I do not know when Daniel died. Martha Jane died in 1940.
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Hello, thank you for welcoming me to this chat. i had absolutely no idea that Daniel had married Martha! There was a rumour in our family that Daniel led a double life but I dismissed this when I found his marriage to Catherine Boswell. He never married my great grandmother Elizabeth Mary Roberts. I have her birth cert and this was her correct name. She was always known as May so i think this is why all the cross outs on the 1939 register. Daniel and Elizabeth had 10 children the first my auntie Gloria (Dorothy Gloria Roberts)was born in 1929. My Nan Ira Urenda Roberts was born in 1933.
She is blanked out on the census although sadly passed in 2013. He was a fish monger for a while but went back to travelling with the fair when my Nan was 10. My Nan was on the fair until she married at age 19.
I think the correct spelling for Daniel's mother is Subie as this is on her death certificate and my Nan's youngest sister was also named Subie after Daniel's Mum.
Now I have more questions regarding this marriage to Martha! Lol
Do you know anything of his army record? I saw a photo of Daniel many years ago in a military uniform standing behind a chair. I don't know what happened to this photo and i haven't yet found his military record??
So many questions...
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I am not aware of his military service. Travellers were patriotic and joined up to serve the country. Also during the war, there were no fairs. The information regarding Aran’s service was from Rootschat and the thread will be available on the page Armed Forces . World War One. Considering Daniel’s age, his service may well have been before World War One. You could ask a question on the Armed Forces page. As a last hope in finding the remaining two children, Daniel and probably John, I asked if they joined up, but found nothing.
Marriage: Daniel Evans . Catherine Ann Boswell
(Ref: Swansea Jul-Sep 1899 . Volume 11a . Page 1446)
Marriage Certificate: 14 Aug 1899 . Register Office . District of Swansea
Daniel Evans . 28 years . Batchelor . Licensed Hawker . Travelling Van, Dyfatty Street, Swansea . Father: Edwin Evans . Basket Maker (Master) . Catherine Boswell otherwise Catherine Ann Boswell . 26 years . Spinster . Licensed Hawker . Travelling Van, Dyfatty Street, Swansea . Father: William Boswell . Showman . Witnesses: Edwin Evans . Delinda Elizabeth Tracy
Marriage: Daniel Evans . Martha Jane Williams
(Ref: Oct-Dec 1917 . Carmarthen . Volume . Page )
Marriage Certificate: 26 November 1917 . Register Office . District of Carmarthen . Daniel Evans . 47. Widower . Public Amusement Caterer . Van Carmarthen Park . Father: Edward Evans (deceased) . Basket Maker . Martha Jane Williams . 46 . Widow . Fruiterer . Ivy Bush Inn, Market Street, Haverfordwest . Thomas Richards . Railway Porter
In the 1911 census, it says Daniel and Catherine had been married 19 years, having 4 children with 4 still living. They formally married in 1899 at the Register Office, Swansea after their children had been born. Many followed gipsy customs, so the 19 years could relate to that marriage event. Or wanting to hide they were not married.
When Aran married 6 months later, he and Daniel were referred to as Colliers, though Aran was in the Army, first the South Lancashire Regiment and then the Machine Gun Corp.
Marriage: Aran Evans . Martha Jane Evans . Haverfordwest
(Ref: Apr-Jun 1918 . Volume 11a Page 2108)
Marriage Certificate:
15 May 1918 . Register Office . Aran Evans . 23 . Batchelor . Private - Machine Gun Corps - 272440 . Collier . 19 Market Street, Haverfordwest . Father: Daniel Evans (Collier) . Martha Jane Williams . 24 . Spinster . 19 Market Street, Haverfordwest . Father: Thomas Williams (Deceased) . Fish merchant . Witnesses: John Williams . Daniel Evans
On the original document Mayra, May had been crossed out, with handwritten Elizabeth Mary added. They used different names depending on who they were talking to, like the courts. In completing the register, they were talking to officials, while the amendments were health staff etc.
There are a few interesting articles in newspapers regarding Daniel and Catherine, also Edwin with Samson and Nelson Williams. I will look out the links for you. In a different court case, Samson Williams was unmasked as Samson Boswell by the court.
I was not aware he continued with the fairs, or that he has 10 children. On the 1939 Register, although living together, I was not sure Daniel was their father, in being registered in her name. Until you said, there was no proof. When he married Martha Jane, they had no children and I do not know how long he and Martha Jane stayed together. The Williams family; mother, two daughters and their husbands, as well as Daniel were all Fish Mongers in Carmarthen, so I imagine they worked together. By 1939, Martha Jane was described as incapacitated. In 1939 Daniel was 69, born in 1870 (though his birth date says 1871), so clearly still capable of fathering children. Do you know when Daniel died?
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To avoid the sigma, when moving to Wales, Boswell often became Williams and Lee may have become Evans, but have not seen anything written about that change. I know Matilda Evans was registered with the mother’s maiden name being Bass and Aran (Perran) Evans was Voss. From those I concluded they were both Boswell without saying so. The other two children were not the same, so I cannot narrow down the search, though think their mmn could be Williams as Catherine’s mother was a Williams. Searching for a Williams in Wales is like the needle in a haystack. Earlier and different census records, have Catherine and brothers, all being Boswells, living with Williams grandparents in Machynlleth while parents attended fairs. In one census they were Boss rather than Boswell.
When Daniel married Catherine, his father was Edwin Evans and when he married Martha Jane Williams in 1917 he was Edward Evans (deceased). That could be a hearing, or transcription error, or his real name could be Edward. Edwin claims to have been born in Brecon and Zubilee/Subie was born in Hereford. She nor her siblings were formally registered, so it is only christenings and census records.
If he was actually born in Brecon and Edwin’s parents were travellers, it may not be registered, with the baptism being elsewhere. Even when registered it is difficult to identify them. Where they were born, may not be where they the birth was registered, as between the two they could have travelled miles. Daniel, the son of Daniel, was baptised in 1901 aged 4 years near Swansea, but the census says he was born in Pontypridd. At present, I have not been able to pin down a birth registration.
On Rootschat I was offered this Christening:
Zubilee Lee . 12 May 1839 . Elmley Castle, Worcestershire
Father's Name: Sampson Lee . Mother's Name: Ederifee
GS Film: 1042169 . Digital Folder: 008069912 . Indexing Project (Batch): C04858-3 . System Origin: ODM
It would seem Ederifee’s father was a Buckland, a name that crops up linked with the Lee family.
I wonder if Zubilee was the name give and Subie the name used. Who registered the death would offer the name she was known by. Daniel’s son Aran was born and registered Perran, baptised Perin Lee and died Aran, as that was how he was known.
There is an issue, which I have not resolved: Her christening in 1839 does not accurately match with the census records; 1881 says 33 so birth 1848 and 1891 says 40 so birth 1851. The same census records say Edwin was 1-2 years older, so 1846 and 1850. But going from the christening, his birth year would be 1837-8. I accept there can be small inaccuracies with estimating the birth year, but not 9-12 years. They were illiterate, he certainly was, and they did not always tell the truth. The census records are the right family, as one daughter was witness to Daniel and Catherine’s marriage. From the 1881 census I know of four children; Urena, Delenda, Angelus and Daniel (transcribed as David). It is likely there were more children, living with relatives, or they had simply flown the nest as the eldest Urena was 14. There are possible candidates from a quick GRO search, but they need to be cross-checked against baptisms. Until the library reopens, I am using Family Search, so cannot see images that would give occupation etc.
My Evans search was to find a little more about them as they married into my family; but out of interest I went deeper and wider. The Williams family were hawkers, so I assume they knew each other from the fairs. My search has stuck on the generation before in trying to find a John Williams from Newcastle in Emlyn, but wonder if all the families are related if I can go far enough back, maybe all being Lee and Boswell. The Williams family were fishermen, fish mongers and had fish and chip shops. In being a travelling showman, Daniel Evans was a public amusement caterer, with Catherine and their children assisting in the business. But in other records he was a peg maker, tin worker (winter months) and later a fish monger. Then from your knowledge, he went back to the fairs.
I don’t know if you are aware of http://romanygenes.com (http://romanygenes.com)
A Rootschat member directed me to it as Daniel Evans and family are mentioned, just the 1901 census. I have more census records and at some point I will forward them to Romanygenes. I had a hunch Catherine Evans was a Boswell and found her listed among the Boswells in Wales page. Although there is an Evans page, it has many called Daniel, but no Edwin. The website uses Flash, so if it does not load, click on the space and request to load appears, click yes.
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Daniel died in 1948 his youngest daughter was only 18 months old. He led quite a life it seems! My Nan worked on a candy floss stall so that ties in with the catering at fairs.
The ages are always difficult as it was thought more prestigious to say that you were older than you were. When a Romany died it was customary to make them much older to have had a good life. That can be very confusing when someone ages 20 years on a 10 year census! Subie Lee claims her father lived to 100 but he was 81 at best! I have records of her Mother Eldorife Buckland and father Sampson Lee. The Bucklands were a large Romany family along with the Lees. I'm sorry if you know all this already?? I have about 16 siblings for Subie.. On her death certificate it says she died ages 57 years in 1902 and it was registered by Edwin Evans. This would put her being born 1845 so the death cert is probably incorrect as the baptism much earlier and the parents on the baptism you've found are correct.
I wonder if Edwin could in fact be Edward and changed to a more 'Welsh' name like Edwin Evans? Eldorife's father and grandfather were both Edward. Edward Junior was hanged for a crime he did not commit and apparently lots of Romany children were named Edward after this?? I have searched for Edwin Evans and cannot find any trace of him before the 1881 census where he is in Gypsy camp living with Subie.
I looked on Romany genes and found Daniel and Catherine with their children but no Edwin. I've also been looking into Evans Romany family that were in Wales at the time and in the Radnorshire area but I cannot find an Edwin there either! Total mystery...
I think those newspaper reports may hold a clue.. It is quite possible he was actually a Lee. Maybe we need to find an Edward Lee born 1846??
Sounds like Martha was very ill and left to fend for herself?
That would be amazing if you could share the links for the court I would be very interested.
Are you on ancestry? If so my tree is public and a lot of what I have found can be seen i.e baptisms, marriages etc.
I have Dan Evans on 1901 Census at Favi field and John Evans on 1911 Census Milford Arms Yard
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I am not on Ancestry and during lockdown it is Family Search.
I will sort out the newspaper links, but nothing relates to Lee. At the time, I was not looking for such a connection, but will now have a search. Writing up my notes, I kept the newspaper, date and page, but deleted the link, which I need to go back and find. Some are of Daniel and Catherine in court for fighting. The only one I have for Edwin, is when he teamed up with Samson and Nelson Williams pretending to be government officials, or something like that. Newspaper articles might hold some clues, as one told me Samson Williams was actually Boswell. Although Edwin sits better in Wales than Edward, there are plenty called Edward at this time in Wales. It may be more to do with court appearances etc. causing some confusion with his identity.
When Martha Jane died in 1940, combined with the war, I imagine the fish business shrank as the men joined up and women worked in the local ammunitions factories. Some would still be fishing locally as fish was not rationed. In the 1939 Register, there are five closed records, which were young children of the daughters that would need to be looked after. The women were very close and looked after each other. Martha Jane the mother and her three daughters are buried in the same plot; not with their husband’s. At the start of World War Two, all fairs stopped. He was too old to join up. It would be 1943 when you nan was 10 and he returned to the fairs. By then, fairs were starting again in England, so I assume also in Wales for the general morale. ‘Showpeople received special "Traveller's Ration Cards" and "Showmen's Vehicle Fuel Ration Cards" which they could use throughout the country. Not only were they encouraged to open fairs in the city centres and parkland, but some local authorities actually paid the showmen or waived the rent for the wartime period.’ From an interesting article at: https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/nfca/researchandarticles/wwii (https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/nfca/researchandarticles/wwii) As most food stuffs were rationed, which continued after the war, I don’t see how he could be a caterer at fairs, unless he had specific ration cards. Maybe the extra rations were of sugar to make candyfloss.
Regarding the military photograph, how old did Daniel look? If it was World War One, he was 44 when it started in 1914. The recruit had to be taller than 5 feet 3 inches and aged between 18 and 38. He might have lied about his age. During World War One there were no fairs and the whole industry almost died out. Other than the mines there was not much else to do.
When you mentioned Daniel leading a double life, I feel his son Aran also lead one. In the 1939 Register, there is an Aran Evans living in Llandeilo and trading as a Fish Monger. He is not with his wife but another woman, both claiming to be married. And I cannot find Martha Jane on the 1939 Register. I asked questions on Rootschat and some thought it a different person because of the wife. With the war starting, he could have joined up again, though I think it is him as that spelling of Aran is not common and also a Fish Monger. Martha Jane, his wife, died in 1945 living at 18 Blue Street, the family home, but was not there in 1939. They did not have any children and she died of Carcinoma of Ovary, apparently more common in women who have not had children. Her death certificate says ‘Wife of Aron Evans a Fish Merchant’. My feeling is, he also left her for someone else.
Often the Lee family used Lee at the end of first names, so Zubilee makes sense as people would know she was from the Lee family once married. Then she would be known as Zubie/Subie. Without the christening information, it will be handed down as spoken. Each census though spells it differently. Rootschat members found me the christening and death information, thinking they could be the same person. When you said Subie was a Lee, it has to be the same person. Do you know when Edwin died?
Regardless of Edwin being Edward or a Lee, in census records he was always 1-2 years older the Subie, so I feel it may be 1837-8. Because census records say he was born in Brecon/Radnorshire, if his parents were travellers, it is unlikely there will be a registration and his baptism could be anywhere.
My stumbling block has been, Dan Evans on 1901 census at Favi field and John Evans on 1911 census Milford Arms Yard. There are crossing outs/amendments, but both share the same age and place of birth, so they might be the same person. The baptism I found only has Daniel in 1901 aged 4, therefore I am treating them as different people, but have found nothing more. Until you made contact I had given up and was concentrating on other areas of my tree, as technically Danial and Aran only married into my family.
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I have only searched from those held by the National Library of Wales, Ancestry may have others, especially in England.
Edwin Evans
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3388925/3388930/92/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3388925/3388930/92/)
A Gipsy Pretending To Be A Government Inspector
If you use the advanced search with Edwin Evans and the box below Samson it is covered in three different papers, but may be the same article, and also a Welsh language version.
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3724681/3724684/21/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3724681/3724684/21/)
Possibly the right Edwin Evans, about sealing and having aliases.
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3340772/3340779/56/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3340772/3340779/56/)
Cruelty to a horse.
There is nothing relating to Edward Evans or Edwin Lee
Edward Lee
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3080229/3080235/46/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3080229/3080235/46/)
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4511306/4511312/29/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4511306/4511312/29/)
Same article. Murdered wife and the age/year is close, but insane.
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4511238/4511240/9/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4511238/4511240/9/)
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3673230/3673233/20/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3673230/3673233/20/)
Follow up of the above.
Daniel Evans
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4426091/4426099/96/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4426091/4426099/96/)
Fighting
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3796027/3796031/25/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3796027/3796031/25/)
Drunk with William Boswell who seems to be Catherine’s brother.
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3584763/3584766/5/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3584763/3584766/5/)
Fight
Catherine Evans
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3645819/3645821/8/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3645819/3645821/8/)
Assault
Have you checked prison records?
There is a good chance they went to prison and the records may have aliases.
I found an early census record for Nelson Williams working in the Forest of Dean. There cannot be many called Nelson. Both Boswell and Lee families can be found throughout England, so their path into Wales could be anywhere. The Lee family in Worcestershire is not that far from the Forest of Dean.
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Thank you for the newspaper links they were fantastic to read and certainly makes me think the changes of surname was probably so that Edwin had aliases for criminal activity. I have him as dying in 1903 from records on ancestry. I don't have his death certificate though.
I have Daniel's children as Matilda (Tilly), Aron (actually looks like Caron on 1911 census?), Evan and I have found a Daniel John Evans suggesting that they are one of the same person.
That's really interesting about the Travellers getting special ration cards, I didn't know that. The problem with my family history is that it is stories passed down and usually there is some element of truth but it's finding it!
The photo of Daniel has always been a mystery to me with him in uniform due to his age? In the photo he is in 30's I would say, black hair, moustache and wearing uniform. He is standing behind a chair in the pose...That is the only photo I have ever seen of him.
Thank you for the information about Nelson Williams and Samson Williams/Boswell and the Forest of Dean. I will search those names and areas see if I can find anything..
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I do not know traveller customs, if the husband should be older than his wife. He may be younger than Subie, but claiming to be older. Like with Subie, his age and therefore estimated year of birth are all over the place. It would seem, neither of them know how old they were, or when they were born, so how can they know how much older he is? My feeling is he will be older.
I am sure others researching traveller families come across the same issues, in struggling to find the right person. By their nature, they were elusive in moving around, not telling the truth, changing their names to suit and not abiding with government formality. Then the further you go back, the less accurate the dates are. Most will be baptised and there should be records, though some churches/chapels have not released them to be found online.
Of Daniel’s first set of children, Matilda and Aran were registered and baptised, so I assume Daniel and John were also recorded. I know Daniel was baptised. Sometimes it takes a little luck, or a sideways step; and I have to accept, sometimes they will not be found. Finding Aran was a sideways step.
On Rootschat, I have asked in different threads about the children. In 1911, it is Aaron, but in 1901 I feel Evan is Aran. They sound similar and if the enumerator was a Welsh speaker it is an easy mistake. They gave their children ‘English’ or traveller names, there are no Welsh names other than Evan. Aran is how it was spelt, but was registered Perran and baptised Perrin Lee. Daniel has a christening record from 1901 aged 4. I believe Daniel and John are different sons. I feel they gave one name, age and place of birth, then changed the name and left the remaining information. From the 1911 census there were 4 children with 4 still alive.
Birth: Perran Evans (Aran) . 1895 . mmn Voss (Boswell)
(Ref: Jan-Mar 1895 . Swansea . Volume 11a . Page 1043)
Baptism: Perrin Lee . 08 Jul 1895 . Penllergaer . Sketty St. Paul, Glamorgan . Father's Name: Daniel . Peg Maker . Mother's Name: Catherine
There is a Daniel Evans, born 1897, who died in 1948 in Carmarthen. I need to find him on the 1939 Register to see where he was living and his occupation. Daniel snr. and Aran settled in Carmarthen/Haverfordwest, Matilda married in Haverfordwest, had a daughter and divorced before living in Swansea. There is a good chance Daniel and John also lived in the area. The 1921 census should answer a lot of questions.
Using Family Search, I am unable to see original images. If Edwin’s parents were traveller, his father’s occupation within baptisms may be the only way to identify him. Do you have Daniel’s birth certificate? It is on my list for when Covid19 eases a little further. I am expecting his father to be Edwin and a Basket Maker.
If Subie died before Edwin, I don’t know who would register the death. Anyone other than a family member will probably not identify him.
Death: Edwin Evans . 79 (Est 1838)
Jan-Mar 1917 . Llanelly . Volume 11a . Page 1416
Being Jan-Mar it is likely to be 1837. which matches her christening and the only one that fitted with him being older.
Pembrey, Llanelly, Pontardulais and parts of Swansea seem regular haunts for the family and many other travellers.
I cannot find Edwin in 1901 or 1911. There were issues in 1901, that some travellers refused to answer census questions, or gave very vague answers. Daniel answered fully, but others I have seen, like Nelson Williams, tell you nothing other than his name, and his wife was also called Nelson. Being a government official, entering large traveller encampments to ask lots of questions, is not a job I would fancy. Especially when they were not happy regarding the census.
Death: Nelson Williams . Swansea Jul-Sep 1906 . Age: 60 (Est 1846) . Volume: 11a . Page: 510 . Line Number: 232
Nelson died after being struck by a pedal cyclist. There was an article in the newspaper and there are plenty about Samson Williams if you search for both using the same website as the previous links.
There is the start of a discussion on Rootschat (April 05) by Watts/Wills called Linda, with no response, but it is the same family.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=50649.msg201133#msg201133
(https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=50649.msg201133#msg201133)
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I don't think the Daniel Evans born 1897 died 1948 is the correct one. I know he was a lot older than my great Nan. I have been searching on ancestry trying to find his birth and death entries so that I can order certificates but so many Daniel Evans! I believe he died around 1948 because my Nan saying her sister was only 18 months old and she was born in 1946 and that with the census suggesting he was born 1870-71. I'm assuming he died and is buried in Carmarthenshire. I have tried searching general Wales but not a single person adds up with the proper birth and death year.
I've been looking more closely at Subie Lee siblings and she had a brother Perrin/Perun/Perrid Brook Williams/Lee. He was born 1852 Bewdley Gloucestershire. There are lots of things pertaining to him with variants of his name! Seems he had 2 wives! 1 of his children is called Nelson.
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The Daniel Evans of 1897 was the son. I have his baptism and wondered if he was also living in the area near other family members. The census suggests he was born in 1897.
Daniel snr was born in Llanwrda according to the 1911 census. It is transcribed as Llanunda (or something similar, which is in Pembrokeshire). In 1901 it is Llandovery. I asked on Rootschat as having read the original, I felt it was Llanwrda and others agreed. Llanwnda is about 4 miles from Llandovery.
(Ref: Daniel Evans . Oct-Dec 1870 . mmn Lee . Llandovery . Volume 11a . Page 633) Found by Rootschat members as I was looking at 1871. The GRO also gives the mother’s maiden name; and the only Lee in Llandovery. This is one of the certificates I am waiting to buy. Although he was actually born in 1870, in the 1939 Register it was written as 1871. The register was written before his birthday, so if he gave his age, along with day and month, it could be subtracted wrongly.
Perrin Brook Williams is the one I found first and kept cropping up, so knew I had the right family. There was a child called Perrin who died very young. That caused some confusion when finding Perran/Perrin Lee Evans, who became Aran. It seems he was named after the child that died. Although I did not look, I assume Perrin Brook Williams was the father. I thought he was related to Catherine as going back, her mother’s maiden name was Williams. It now looks like all are related to the Lee family. If he was Subie's brother and a Lee, did he change his name to Williams? I need to look, but think he is the son of one of her sisters.
Catherine is buried in Pembrey church. I have looked, but on a miserable day and did not find it. Tradition suggests a traveller is burnt with his van. Did your great grandmother continue to live in the van? A burial plot and stone costs money, or they were buried in what was called a pauper’s grave, where several were buried in the same plot and no stone. There must have been sufficient money to for Catherine to be buried, but as he aged did the money drop off? If it is a pauper’s grave that will be Llanelli.
Nelson Williams who I mentioned previously was born in 1840s, so could be an uncle. I pulled back from looking deeper into many of them as they only touched my family tree through marriage. If the Nelson child was born in 1906, it could be in memory of Nelson who died, being hit by a bicycle that year.
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That Daniel you found must be the correct one. I will order the birth certificate as may give some clues about Edwin. The fact that Daniel and Catherine baptised Perrin Lee makes me think he was actually Lee not Evans.
My great Nan moved to Pembroke with her sister after Daniel died. She still had lots of children at home and I think they had to move into some kind of poor house but I still have to find out more about it.
Even though i have lots of family in Wales I struggle with all the place names and where they are etc. as I live in Essex.
I don't think Daniel was cremated in his van in Romany tradition as I have found Eldorife buried and other members of the family buried.
Elizabeth's children who are alive today visit her grave but none have ever menioned his grave so I don't know where it is.
I am wondering about that photo, maybe it was actually Aran and mistakenly thought to be Daniel. It was Daniel's youngest daughter that had it so she wouldn't actually remember what he looked like?
Thank you for your help and all the information you have given me. It is very much appreciated and especially as they married in to your family so not your direct line
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My family are from Carmarthenshire though I was born in Cheshire. Around 18 years ago I moved to Carmarthenshire, so know the places mentioned. By car, I am 20 minutes from Carmarthen, 30 minutes from Pembrey and 40 minutes from Llanelli. Although they only married into my family, I found their lives interesting with similarities to my Williams family. You have answered several questions I had and did not know where to look.
Daniel’s birth registration I thought I had passed to you before, but from your response it was clear I had not. Any change from Lee to Evans may well be the generation before Edwin.
Perrin Lee I struggled with when the baptism was found for me. It should be Evans, but peeling away all other information it had to be right. Were they using Lee as a middle name, or surname? Clearly the recorder thought it was a surname. Initially I thought that, but now I am not so sure.
I suspect there was not enough money to have Daniel buried privately, unless he paid for more than one depth when Catherine died, but even that would involve a cost. If not there, my hunch is, he will be in an unmarked ‘pauper’s grave.
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Wales/ (http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Wales/)
Of almost 2,000 workhouses, only 19 were in Wales, of which more than half were in Pembrokeshire. Pembrokeshire Archives are very good. I have visited a few times. With 10 workhouses, if possible you may need to find the area she moved to.
The only deaths for Danial Evans registered between 1947 and 1949 in Carmarthenshire, are all in Carmarthen. In 1948, he was 78, but the person who registered his death would probably not know. None of the deaths match exactly, but this is the closest.
Daniel Evans . Jul-Sep 1948 . 80 . Carmarthen . Volume 8a . Page 227
As for the photograph, it may not be Daniel senior. The Boer War in South Africa, 1899-1902, is the right time for Daniel to be in his thirties, but in 1901 he was in Aberavan. He married during World War One, so did his son Aran. There is nothing on either marriage certificate suggesting he was serving in the forces. Aran’s certificate states he was in the army, while Daniel was a Collier. At his own marriage, he was a Public Amusement Caterer. The war ended in 1918, though soldiers were not released until 1919 or later. Catherine died in 1916. Her death certificate is another I would like to have, to see who registered the death. Church records say she was in the Living Van in Pembrey, was Daniel with her? (Pembrey is half way between Carmarthen and Llanelli.) Nothing at present, confirms he was in the forces. I wonder if the photograph is Aran or Daniel junior, or the other son who I believe is John. But they would only be 18-20 years old at the start. I have Aran’s regiments and numbers, but that is all.
During World War One, Daniel seems to be based in Carmarthenshire. The Williams family were living at 19 Market St, Haverfordwest, in Pembrokeshire, which was a public house called the Ivy Bush Inn. Aran was living there when he married. Daniel married in Carmarthen and was in the Living Van. At that time, it would seem Martha Jane moved from Haverfordwest to 18 Blue Street, Carmarthen. I wonder if one of the issues was that she did not live in his van and attend fairs?
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Following on from my last post, I think this is the only Evans information not passed to you:
Birth: Matilda Evans . 1893 . mmn Bass (Boswell)
(Ref: Oct-Dec 1893 . Swansea . Volume 11a . Page 841)
Baptism: 1893 . Lliw Common . Llandilo T’Bont, Glamorgan
Father's Name: Daniel . Tinman . Mother's Name: Catherine
Marriage: 1917 . George Davies
(Ref: Oct-Dec 1917 . Haverfordwest . Volume 11a . Page 2348)
Birth: Elizabeth M Davies (Maud) . mmn Evans
(Ref: Jan-Mar 1920 . Haverfordwest . Volume 11a . Page 3185)
Divorced (Ref: 1939 Register RG101/72961/008/23 Letter Code: XIJB)
Died: Matilda Davies . Birth Date: 01 Jan 1893 (Matches 1939 Register)
Jul-Sep 1974 . Swansea . Volume 27 . Page 2342
On the 1939 Register, an amendment suggests Elizabeth M Davies (Maud) went on to marry a Nicholson. Possible: Margery Davies . Aubrey D Nicholson . Jan-Mar 1942 . Swansea . Volume 11a . Page 2386.
At present, I am unable to access the full 1939 Register, but there is an addition you may want to follow. I had forgotten, when this morning it came back to me. Looking at the record for Daniel, when I scrolled either side of the main image, there was a handwritten reference in the margin, suggesting Daniel was also living somewhere else. I followed the reference and a Daniel Evans was married to another woman in Carmarthen, but the birth date did not match, so I dismissed it. Now with his double life, there may be something there; in addition to Martha Jane, but if dates do not match, proof will be difficult.
Aran died in 1958 (17 January 1958) of acute cardiac failure. He was living in Cwmgwilli and working as a builders labourer. Cwmgwilli is between Llanelli and Ammanford in Carmarthenshire. Before lockdown I tried to find his grave. Assuming it would be Llanelli I made contact. He was not there, but they felt it would be Ammanford in being closer. I never got around to it before lockdown. The triangle between marriage, living in Llandeilo with another woman and his death I have not pieced together, and probably never will.
Following Catherine Ann’s lineage back is interesting in being a Boswell and before that her mother was a Williams. The Boswells at least were travelling showmen and probably the Williams clan too. Their base was in Machynlleth (by car 65 miles and 2 hours from Carmarthen). Somewhere within the lineage, I would expect them to marry into the Lee family; and other traveller families. Taking the Boswell, Williams and Lee families back, may lead you to Edwin. If you cannot find it one way, a detour often helps. Somewhere, that Boswell/Williams family should include Samson and Nelson Williams, but Samson was really a Boswell. I found the 1881 and 1891 census records for Catherine as a Boswell, but it is so interwoven and that was where I left my search.
Aran being baptised Perrin Lee may hint at Edwin’s name, it certainly does with Subie, but Perrin came from the Williams side, which I accept also links to the Lee family. But the Williams clan were linked more to the Boswells. I feel Edwin could also be a Boswell and how he knew Catherine. One of the links below shows a Boswell using the name Evans. The difficulty is, both names are changed, so unless you get lucky with a newspaper article you will never know. I only looked in Welsh newspapers up to 1919, while the change may have happened in England.
Boswell marriage in Pembrokeshire 1887:
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3710559/3710563/22/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3710559/3710563/22/)
Woman assaulted Tenby 1909:
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3712011/3712014/11/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3712011/3712014/11/)
Ben Boswell, a travelling gipsy, otherwise Stanley Evans 1909:
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4206640/4206642/25/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4206640/4206642/25/)
Lee - Boswell Wedding in Cheshire 1892:
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3708530/3708533/24/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3708530/3708533/24/)
Boswells blocking the road 1903:
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3415436/3415440/74/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3415436/3415440/74/)
Zuba Boswell fortune telling 1886:
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4407083/4407086/34/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4407083/4407086/34/)
Samson Williams actually Boswell 1889:
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3302314/3302318/35/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3302314/3302318/35/)
Interesting article about English gypsy names:
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3644855/3644859/19/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3644855/3644859/19/)
There are newspaper articles about Samson Williams, a gipsy being in court for mistreating a horse near Pelcomb Cross, about 3 miles from Haverfordwest in 1905. At the same time my grandfather and great-grandfather (also Martha Jane) were living at Haverfordwest, and my great-grandfather’s brother was near Pelcomb Cross, all being fish hawkers. I am sure they knew each other.
Daniel might be in Carmarthen Town Cemetery, Elim Road, Carmarthen, SA31 1TX. Until I looked yesterday, I did not know it existed. They are undertaking a safety audit of headstones and may have found Daniel. There is an email address and mobile number for the Clerk of Carmarthen Town Council and I have sent him an email. The probability is that Daniel died in Carmarthen, but if he was still travelling, it could be anywhere along the South Wales coast.
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Daniel was not buried in Carmarthen Town Cemetery.
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Hi, I have been searching through Catherine Boswell family trying to find clues. Reading the census she is from very large family of Boswell/Williams all being travelling showmen. I've also found information in books I have regarding Boswells and Lees saying that they intermarried and travelled together which again points to Edwin more than likely being a Lee or Boswell. I've tried moving his date of birth to those earlier dates and tried using the different surnames but still doesn't bring anyone up on ancestry. I'm wondering how good the ancestry search is though as it didn't bring up Daniel's birth and you found it on GRO.
I'll have a read through those newpaper article links see if I can see any clues as well..
I looked through my book on Evans gypsy family in Wales and cannot see anything at all that would link Edwin..I wonder if Daniel birth registration will show something. Probably still say Edwin Evans! My Nan's family always passed them selves off for being Italians as large Italian population but i know this was a cover story as I've had my DNA done and I've no Italian only Indian! Which corresponds to the Romany originating from India.
I will look on the 1939 census see what i can see written like you said. From what I've found in my tree it was very common for Romany men to have more than 1 wife at the same time but i thought by Daniel's generation and Aran's it would not be the done thing??
I'll have a look into those workhouses as it would make sense that Elizabeth ended up there as she had young children and no means of earning a living..I still wonder how she met Daniel as he was 35 years her senior. But they stayed together until he died.
If you found Aran's grave maybe the others would be buried nearby?
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Elizabeth is buried in Monkton Pembroke not with Daniel..
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Just tried to read the writing that is over written on the census. It says in red pen NANTYCAWS mass issue XEA G1.20 RL79 I have absolutely no idea what that means!
I don't think I can put the image on here for you to read yourself?
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on other side of Daniel's name says 'See YXEA-260129 5-7-40 (looks like date?)
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I will ask Ammanford cemetery if Aran is there, but I cannot imagine Daniel being there as well. Daniel died 10 years before Aran. The closest, especially when you have no money, would be Carmarthen. Ammanford is around 20 miles away. I would not rule out cremation with caravan. I need to go to Pembrey again and see if I can find Catherine’s grave, though accept in being buried, she may not have a headstone. At present, there is a 5 mile limit for non-essential journeys in Wales, with the police stopping and questioning, not like England. I will go when I can.
The GRO and local authorities hold different records, so Ancestry may have acquired their records from local authorities. I found a death on the GRO, while Carmarthenshire had no trace of it.
I agree, that Edwin is likely to be either Lee or Boswell. As with Subie, that generation and the one before, there were no birth registrations, even when it was expected. The only hope is a baptism and that it is online. When you look at the article I posted; Stanley Evans actually being Ben Boswell, you would never link them, unlike Samson Boswell/Williams who only changed his surname. I have searched for different permutations of Edwin/Edward Evans/Lee and found nothing from around Subie’s christening date. I did not try Boswell. From the marriage certificates where he is Edwin and then Edward, there may be something in Edward being his ‘real’ name. I tried to piece the Boswell Williams relationships together, but gave up. There were so many of them and then those who changed their name. Although Edwin claims to have been born in Brecon/Radnorshire, that might not be the case, but a place he knew in making him appear to be a local.
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5-7-40 is the date that note was made. Nantycaws is a village near Carmarthen on the way to Pontardulais, what is now the M4. It is a place he would pass many times. I struggled to find the page from the reference. From memory, I only searched using the letters YXEA and then from a short list selected Daniel’s name. This may need to wait until the library is open again and I can access it. I have just looked at what is available freely on Find My Past and cannot identify the record as they are not giving the reference number. There are only 4 that it could be.
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Who would've wrote on the census a year later? Was it to update it? I'll see what I can find on ancestry with those letters and Daniel's name.
Your lockdown in Wales is still so strict not being able to go more than 5 miles :o I was hoping to come to Wales again this year but it's not likely to be any time soon!!
That article with Ben Boswell pretending to be Samuel Williams certainly doesn't fill me with certainty that Edwin was actually Edwin. Edwin Evans sounds a very stereotypical Welsh name which makes me think it wasn't his name..
I have found a baptism for 1846 Edwin Lee parents Augusta and George Monmouthshire Chapel Hill, but I haven't searched the parents a bit more yet.
He is consistent on saying Beguildy on census and consistent with birth date of 1846 so was it because Subie was actually older than him that she consistantly said she was younger that she was on all different records. Even her death certificate has her age much younger? Especially as it was better to say you was older for Romany people...
I've ordered Daniel's birth certificate but it says 7 weeks post and I paid extra for email copy 5 weeks.
Looking into the Boswell/Williams on Catherine's side is a headache! I am going to keep looking though because I have Boswell grandparents further up my tree. Daniel's great grandmother was Lucy Boswell. As the Boswell and Lees intermarried through the generations I wonder if Daniel was in fact related somehow to Catherine? A cousin? I'm still trawling through the Lees to see if I can find an Edward Lee or a male Lee that corresponds with 1846 or 1837 if he was in fact older than Subie..
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Okay, so just found out that mass issue and that date refers to ration books. So it is probably safe to say Daniel was in NantyCaws when his ration book was issued? So now I'm wondering was Elizabeth still in the living van or did she go with him? I think she stayed as my Nan went to school until she was 10.
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With family history, I gather so much, but then have to sort the wheat from chaff. That 1939 Register entry I had forgotten about, then found the basics. Only when you had difficulty, I remembered my difficulty and how I worked around it. No one else was with him in 1939, as there are no redacted entries, only him and his ‘wife’. He is also in the Living Van with Elizabeth and children, though from the dates, there should be more children than spaces redacted; where are they?
I went to Pembrey this morning and there is a huge notice on the gate not to visit, unless you quickly want to leave flowers, so I respected that and did not go in. Using Family search, I cannot find any burials for a Daniel Evans around 1948. Her burial is listed online and if he was there as well, it too would be online. There are plenty of Boswells living and even dying at Pembrey, it must have been a special meeting place for travellers. When did they go to Pembroke, when he died, or did they live in the van for a while?
If Nantycaws is regarding rations, was he trying to get double? There was also a woman there, with both claiming to be married. From past experience of this family, being married probably does not mean to each other. With a stigma about living together, it would be easier to say you were married. But also in traveller culture, they did not marry formally, but still considered it a marriage in the eyes of the Lord. I believe the 1939 Register is different to a census. It listed those who lived there whether they were present or not. For a census, it was only those in the household when the enumerator visited. If Daniel was not in Natycaws that day, it could explain why he was listed with a different date of birth, as it was given by someone else.
How do you know Daniel's great grandmother was Lucy Boswell?
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That's a shame you couldn't go into Pembrey church. You have a good point about the 1939 register not being like a census. I was still treating it the same in that he was living with them. There was a stigma about them not being married I remember that with my Nan. I know Elizabeth was born in Tumble as have all her birth certificate etc. She was from Welsh speaking family of Colliers. She had a daughter when she was young that I believe was called Mair or Myra and from what i can find that Daughter was written on census as being her mothers child instead. I don't know if that daughter was in the living van in 1939 I don't think she was as I don't think my Nan grew up with her as such. The eldest daughter of Daniel and Elizabeth Dorothy Gloria was given away to a relative and was only brought back at the age of 11 or 12. So this would account for her not being on the census. I have always wondered why she was given away as they went on to have 9 more children. From the way Elizabeth has been described to me she was a loving mother so i don't think she would've given Dorothy away lightly. Was it because Daniel wasn't with her officially so she couldn't bring her up??
I have used the census, baptism and marriage records and Eldorife Mother is Lucy Boswell. I've also DNA matched on ancestry to other family members so I'm sure i'm on the correct track. Eldorife father was Edward Buckland.
On my tree Lee, Boswell and Buckland intermarry all different generations then all of a sudden you get Edwin Evans! That's why I'm sure he is Boswell or Lee....
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So is Daniel on 1939 register somewhere else as well in Nantycaws? He's not with Martha Wlilliams.
I just checked and looks like 6 children on 1939 registar although 5 blanked out. From the dates of birth I have of the children there were 7 living so it would be Dorothy Gloria that isn't on there..
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I have not found Martha Jane on the 1939 Register. There are some that could be right, mainly in Pembrokeshire, but alone, nothing yet with a Daniel. The Living Van and Nantycaws are the only two where I know, or suspect, Daniel is living. Searching the GRO, I found 8 children born before 1939 and there are 5 redacted, so taking Gloria out of that sum, I still have 2 more; Daniel, Ira, Dawn, Violet, John, Margaret and Sally. Violet and John were both 1935, twins?
Welsh was the language of the mines, so if you only spoke English, learning Welsh quickly would save your life.
There seems little doubt that Edwin changed his name, but it has to be before the census records, as by then he is Evans. Then there are his children. Their baptism records could be key, were they Evans, Lee, Boswell, or something else. If they are all Evans the change had to take place before.
ADDED: The Martha Jane I cannot find is the one married to Aran. I get confused with the two. Martha Jane that married to Daniel was living at 18 Blue Stree, Carmarthen.
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I found this first on Family Search and then looked on the GRO. It fits with Edwin being 1-2 years older and mmn Lee makes me think it is the closest found to date. I looked between 1837 and 1845 for Edward/Edwin Boswell and also tried Boss in England and Wales; no other registration came close. I could not find a baptism for parents and occupation, but at least there is a birth registration/certificate. It does not fit with Edwin being born in Brecon/Radnorshire, but that might have been a lie in giving the impression he was from Wales.
Edward Boswell . mmn Lee . Oct-Dec 1837 . Oxford . Volume 16 . Page 76
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Just been looking at what I have for Daniel's children and you have ones that I didn't..
I have Dorothy Gloria 1929, Daniel Edwin 1931, Ira 1933, Dawn 1934, Violet 1935, Kenneth 1936 (who was amended on 1939 register to David Kenneth 20.9.63), Margaret 1937, Stanley 1940, Pamela 1942 and Subie 1946. I knew there was a twin girl but wasn't sure who's twin she was. This was probably Sally. I believe she died aged 12 after being knocked down by a car??? I don't know who John is?
I will see if I can find Aran's Martha on Ancestry and let you know.
That Edward mmn Lee could be our Edwin? I have Subie Lees siblings being born Hereford, Worcestershire, Shropshire, Staffordshire and Gloucestershire so they were moving around a lot. I put in +/- 5rs 1840 for Edwin Evans, Lee and Boswell on ancestry. Can't pin anything down that would be a certain match for birth record or baptism
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Just found an Edwin Evans on ancestry birth record 1845 Knighton, Radnorshire (I think that is about 10 miles from Beguildy?). 3rd Quarter Volume 26, page 239 but on ancestry it doesn't give me anymore information about mmn or anything. I would have to buy the birth certificate to see...
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I checked on the GRO and that Edwin Evans is not listed. No results found +/- 1 year.
I look at the list of Boswells in Wales on Romany Genes and wonder how many are accurate. If the location was taken from census records, where born might not be the case, when some originated from England. Although the website mentions moving from England to Wales; and changing names, finding a move and name change is difficult, as so little has been written down. The only evidence I found regarding name changes were from newspaper articles and Boswell becoming Evans shows that change happened. I had thought, Boswells and Coopers only took the Williams name. Although Edwin says his birthplace is Brecon/Radnorshire, if he arrived there young, or he chose to use a Welsh place name, I do not feel the census records can be trusted. Like his name, it could be changed to make it sound better.
To reach Wales from Oxford, it is across to Gloucester and then through the Forest of Dean (what is now the M4), or up and across, north of the Brecon Beacons to reach Brecon and Radnorshire.
I have looked for Edward/Edwin, Evans/Lee and now Boswell. From all, that one jumps out, but there needs to be more evidence. Without a baptism, getting the birth certificate may be the only way; and alas more expense. A Boswell, with mmn Lee, makes me think they are travellers. Oxford would be Edwin’s birth place, then once married, his children are from Gloucester to mid-Wales. Even once moved, I imagine family would still be in the Oxford Gloucester areas. From parents, it could open up early census records. He may be the youngest as I did not find other Boswell with mmn Lee. Or at that point, they moved to Wales and became Evans.
Of the children you list, 3 of them were born after 1939 so could not be on the register. Dorothy Gloria Roberts . 1929; Daniel E Roberts . 1931; Ira Urenda Roberts . 1933; Dawn E Roberts . 1934; John E Roberts . 1935; Violet M Roberts . 1935; David Kenneth Roberts . 1936; Margaret L Roberts . 1937 and Sally P Roberts . 1938.
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I tried the GRO with Knighton Volume and Page, it is not there. Maybe a mistake by Ancestry? Or the GRO! You could contact the GRO with reference to see if it is there, but not on their database.
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That Edwin Evans on ancestry must be a mistake then? It says birth index and then is a hand written record on the image?
John must've been Violet's twin? Do you know when he died as I have never heard his name mentioned before?
I'm wondering if Sally was the one that was run over by a car? I'll see if I can find any death reg on ancestry.
I've found a probate entry for the older Martha Jane Williams address Blue Street. She left £975 15s to a Florence Edith Buchan single woman. Strange she didn't leave her money to her daughter? I think quite a lot of money in those days. I have been DNA matched to Buchan..
I agree with you I think Edwin was probably born in Oxford and just chose to say Radnorshire as it made him sound more Welsh.
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I've got a Martha J Williams D 24 Nov 1940 Blue Street the one on the probate entry and I've also got a death record for a Martha J Evans D Jan 1944 Haverford West? I wonder if Martha J Evans is Aran's Wife?
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I have Martha Jane's Will and there are some issues, that it was written in 1937 naming Florence Buchan her daughter, who did not become a Buchan until the early 1940s. Why was probate in Oxford when it could have been carried out in Carmarthen. He too was a Fish Monger. I am starting to wonder again about Oxford.
Aran's wife, Martha Jane died 1945 while living at 18 Blue Street, Carmarthen, but she was not there in 1939. I am only missing the 1939 information. Martha Jane (Mother) Martha Jane, Florence E and Violet May, the 3 sisters are all buried in the same plot at St. David's Church, Carmarthen. In 1939, there is a Martha Jane in Neyland, alone and working in the Post Office, but I do not know it is her. At some point I will go across to the archives and look through newspapers.
Although Edward Boswell, mmn Lee, may not be the right person, there are too many positives not to follow up. It was the first quarter for birth registrations.
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Edwin Evans . mmn Powell
GRO Ref: Oct-Dec 1837 . Hay Union . Volume 26 . Page 225
Hay is near to Brecon, but mmn Powell?
You will probably not find a direct link for Edward Boswell changing to Edwin Evans. But if you can go back a generation and look sideways, it might be answered. I think it is now highly likely that Daniel and Catherine were cousins, or related in some way. When the family consisted of Boswells, Lees and to a lesser extent Bucklands, to reach Evans, there has to be a deliberate change of name.
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I saw that Hay one but wasn't sure. It's such a pain on ancestry as I cannot see the mmn only place, date, volume number etc. so hard to narrow down which certificates to order!
I'm going to try to see if I can match Catherine and Daniel as Cousins. I've been trying to find any clues with the various Lee siblings as well. They are all so interwoven it is a lengthy task! I also get DNA matches on all these surnames as well. I'll order that Edward Boswell certificate mmn Lee and see if it shows anything. Going to be a long wait unfortunately for it to arrive..
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I find on Family Search, then check on the GRO for the mmn. Powell as an mmn, does not suggest travellers, but a true 'Welsh' Evans.
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I found Edward Boswell on the 1851 census. His father was a Portmanteau Maker Employing 5 Men. It does not seem the right family. Through the GRO I found brothers and sisters, all in Oxfordshire. The birth year matches Edward and the others.
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1851 Census: Corn Market . St Michael, Oxfordshire, England
Mary Anne Boswell . Daughter . F . 4 . Oxford, Oxfordshire
Frank Boswell . Son . M . 6 . Oxford, Oxfordshire
Eliza Laetitia Boswell . Daughter . F . 8 . Oxford, Oxfordshire
Henry Boswell . Son . M . 16 . Oxford, Oxfordshire
Jane Duncan Boswell . Daughter . F . 10 . Oxford, Oxfordshire
Edward Boswell . Son . M . 13 . Oxford, Oxfordshire
Fra'S Boswell . Head . M . 48 . Oxford, Oxfordshire
Jane Duncan Boswell . Wife . F . 45 . London
HO107 . Piece/Folio: 1728 / 525
GS Film: 101795715 . Digital Folder: 101795715 . Image: 01048
1861 Census: Market Street . St Michael, Oxfordshire
Francis Boswell . Head . M . 58 . Oxford, Oxfordshire
Jane Duncan Boswell . Wife . F . 54. London
Henry Boswell . Son . M . 26 . Oxford, Oxfordshire
Edward Boswell . Son . M.23 . Oxford, Oxfordshire
RG09 . Piece/Folio: 894 / 74
GS Film: 101816659 . Digital Folder: 101816659 . Image Number: 00146
In 1861, Edward is a Cabinet Maker. I cannot see him then being a Basket Maker.
His mother was a Lee
Christening: Jane Duncan Lee . Female . Birth Date: 24 Dec 1804
21 Mar 1805 . St Leonard's, Shoreditch, London
Father's Name: Joseph Lee . Mother's Name: Sarah
GS Film: 396232 . Digital Folder: 008048333 . Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C04080-2
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Two members of the same Evans family married into my family, then quickly separated to live with others; they are not part of my DNA. As travelling people, the reason for this thread, simply questioned if an earlier Evans had changed his name to appear more Welsh. My research has concluded and, although I am slowly writing up my findings, the answer is not important, other activities are now my priority.
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Thank you for sharing your information it has been very helpful.Good luck with your research .