RootsChat.Com
Family History Documents and Artefacts => Graveyards and Gravestones => Topic started by: toad on Saturday 20 August 05 15:46 BST (UK)
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Is it just Merseyside or does the sheer malicious vandalism of our graveyards and memorials happen all over the world?? I broach this subject because I have visited 3 local graveyards in the last few weeks all of which have a great deal of deliberate damage :'(. The one I saw today had a fairly recent headstone smashed in two, making me think that something like a hammer was taken to do it on purpose >:(. Whatever happened to the days when we were taught as children to respect these places? It must be soul destroying for the family's of those in these graves to find such wanton destruction when they visit. Anyway sorry for the rant but I really am angry that we are letting this happen. Anyone any ideas about what can be done (or even is being done) to stop this kind of thing happening? Apart from having justice go back to what they did to the likes of thief's and vandals in the 1700's and hang them ;D
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I'm afraid the vandalism seems to be countrywide.
I live in Stirlingshire and over the past couple of years have seem a massive rise in the wanton destruction in graveyards and cemeteries.
I visited one in the east end of Glasgow recently (Sandymount) and was disgusted at the state it was in - only in this particular cemetery it wasn't 'vandals' as such. The Council had obviously seen it in their wisdom to have someone go round all the sections and paint great big black letters, on the end stone of each row, which lair, row or whatever this was. I couldn't believe my eyes! Stones, some of them dating from the mid 1800's all with huge big black painted numbers on them.
I hope this isn't their way of decreasing the amount of enquiries they get for people looking for their ancestors!
If you have a look at the thread 'Do we need a Graveyard Board?', you'll see that there's an ever increasing amount of fellow Rootchatters who are more than willing to photograph graveyards and cemeteries - it won't do anything to stop the vandalism now but at least in the future, there will be the chance that someone somewhere will have a record of stones which might otherwise be lost forever.
Anne
Anne
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Unfortunately Toad the individuals happy to vandalise a headstone are likely to have no respect for the living, how can society expect them to respect the dead :(
Tabitha
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I think the biggest vandals in gaveyards are local councils, how many times have you seen graveyards where all the gravestones have been removed and laid flat in some cases made into paths
My local town moved all the graves and gravestones in a churchyard and lost the grave stone and grave of --- the grandmother of George Washington, this is vandalism. The amount of desicration done in the 70's (decade of destruction) by local councils was appaling.
We have another churchyard that is now a park where all the stones are to one corner which must be the local dog toilet, as I found out when looking for a gravestone
The land or plot of a grave is bought and belongs to that family, and it is wrong to just rip all the stones up. People in the past have scimped and saved to get a stone erected in "Loving Memory"
I am going to a church tomorrow and a terrace around the church is made from guess what
Sorry people a whinge, but I think it so sad
Andrew
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I very much agree with Andrew, Councils are the biggest culprits.
We here in Kent are getting the Notices on Graves," removal of unauthorized plant pots/ornaments or else signs", or the Health and safety "The stone may fall over and injure a child type"
Much of the Damage is caused by plant and machinery used to cut grass etc.
The result, loose and damage tombstones and silly notices warning of fines or removal.
We in Gillingham have an historic church which dates back to Saxon times, 95 percent of graves have been lawned over, and a children's playground placed in the grounds.
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Thank you
It does annoy me to see graves desicrated and vandalised, regardless of who caused it I do think councils should be more responsible especially with war graves which I have seen in terrible states
Andrew
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I get so angry when I hear of graveyards being smashed up. I really feel for the relatives concerned. However old the grave is.
Quite recently the graveyard where my great aunt, grandfather and grandmother are buried was targeted. >:( >:( >:( Luckily their joint grave was spared. But every time I visit it, I wonder whether it will still be there.
Another thing that angers me is when graveyards get very overgrown. I can see no reason for this whatsoever. I went up to Worcestershire a couple of weeks ago, to hunt for some ancesters graves .... I didn't find any, but that could be because a large part of the churchyards were covered in brambles, stinging nettles, ivy etc >:(. Its not a wonder that so many graves are ruined.
Surely it wouldn't cost that much to keep the whole churchyard from becoming overgrown.
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A lot of churches Around here pay some company to come in and Strim all the weeds off once an month
This keeps it Down there was also on a real old small Cem in Gloucester Where A city Farm Put sheep in to clear it ,
it worked they did a good job , but this is no good when people are tending the graves ie putting flowers on ,as the sheep eat any thing and every thing :o
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Oh yes, I loved that answer, when I was in a Hertfordshire village a year or so ago, they locked the gate into the graveyard so that people wouldn't leave it open during the lambing season as that was where the sheep were kept to graze and keep it tidy. It did work well, yet when a similar thing was done in a graveyard in the suburbs of Liverpool and the animals from the children's farm were allowed to do the same, there was an uproar about it. Sometimes there's just no winning.
This picture was of Anfield cemetery, again Liverpool, last weekend, the Catholic area. As you can see it is kept nice and tidy, but you can also see those headstones which are considered "dangerous" having been checked for Health and Safety and notices were put on them allowing a certain number of days for them to be made safe or else they would be laid down to prevent accidents.
Many of these stones were very old and may well not have descendants to look after them, so what will happen to them now? will they just be left to sink into the ground. Mostly they were laid on their face so that the inscriptions couldn't be read.
Mary
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I think I may have opened Pandora's box with this subject ;D
I too have seen the wanton mess the council here are making of the graves.They are in the process of going around sticking hazard signs on the ones that don't look too safe,saying the stone will be laid flat if no one does anything with it. I have the feeling this is not really for the benefit of those of us who use the graveyards sensibly, but so the children ??? and Vandals that go to "play" in them don't get hurt and sue the council! What I can not understand is why all of a sudden some of these grave stones that are well over 100 years old are falling over?? O.K. wherever the ground is sinking that can be the cause but again a lot of it is the gangs that gather, leave beer cans and destroy what was once a sacred place >:( Of all the cemetery's I have visited in the last few weeks ,the one I found well kept and with no stones falling over was the one were my hubby's grandparents are buried in Childwall,Liverpool. There are graves dating back to the early 1700's in this churchyard.
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The cemetry I was in the other day had a few graves with red tape around, you just mentioned people sueing the council if they fall on you. Legally if you know something is not safe you should make the risk "As Low As Reasonably Possible" (ALARP in the engineering world) immeadiatly, therefore if they know it's not safe just putting a sign on doesnt cover them infact it would make it worse for them
The thing is some places I have seen support stones with steel bars at the back or in one cemetery I have been to, the bases of dodgy ones have been concreted in place - its only a few cubic feet of concrete, and 10 minutes to knock up a wooden frame for a re-usable mould, and surely it would be easier to cut the grass round an upright grave raher than one laid down
I saw a war grave the other day that had been painted white, council not bothered to clean it - as they are paid to do
andrew
Another thing is it must take as much work to lay a stone down as to straighten it up
And yes why are they all falling over? machines that cut the grass perhaps, I've spent hours in graveyards (hey Im a sunderland fan, its more exciting) I've never seen one fall over
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My grandmothers brother died about 10 years ago. All his children have grown up and moved away, and only visit the grave infrequently.
My mum was passing through the town a couple of weeks ago and popped in to put some flowers on the grave. There was a note on the stone saying the stone was deemed to be unsafe and if not repaired by such and such a date, it would be removed.
As I said, the stone is about 10 years old, is a municipal cemetery, owned and run by the council. The stone was even erected by council workers. I fail to see that if the work was carried out properly in the first place, why within such a (relative) short space of time the descendants should be made to cough up.
With older cemeteries, especially those from 18th / 19th century in industrial areas, subsidence is a problem as industry declines, especially those industries which required large quantities of water. It has been proven that since the London brewing industry has collapsed, the extraction of ground water had been reduced and hence the ground water table is contantly rising. This will also have an effect on older buildings and structures, and will also affect headstones from the earlier period.
As these are in effect cultural monuments, cannot lottery money be allocated instead of for nonsense like "Angel of the North" in Gateshead and "B for Bang" in Manchester?
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I wonder, if the angel of the North started to list if they'd put a sign on that or if it would be repaired
Good point D ap D
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Badly kept graveyards drive me nuts. If they can afford to spend money on stupid things like statues then they can afford to look after the graveyards - maybe some of these twits that they end up giving community service to could be roped in
Holy Trinitys graveyard in Heath Town, Wolverhampton is ok in someplaces but the one section is so overgrown that it just looks like a hill with only some of the taller monuments sticking out of it. They even had the cheek to post notices round saying that they were only responsible for the verges and it was up to relatives to look after the graves - yeah if we can find them!. My great grandparents are in there somewhere if I can find them and dont even start me on about the one in Coseley!
Bilston is well looked after and there always seems to be people wandering around there although there is a crop of the dreaded 'unsafe stone' notices that have appeared. Merridale and Bushbury are also well looked after.
Also can anyone suggest anything for looking after a wooden gravestone? There is one in Bilston Cemetary dating from the 1920s which is starting to split. Its not one of my rellies but I'm willing to take over the care of it before it gets too worse
Willow x
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I've just recently heard that there's a proposal to build a new high school on vacant land right next to the local cemetery. At the moment the cemetery is really well kept but I dread to think what'll happen if and when a school is built.
The cemetery is in tiers and the only 'vandalism' is rabbits and badgers burrowing, which makes some of the stones unstable. So far, when a stone topples, the council workers have tried to prop them up as near to the original spot as they can but some of the older, larger ones, would be impossible to reposition without bringing in some sort of lifting gear and that's obviously not an option.
I must admit, many an hour I've enjoyed watching rabbits scurrying about digging holes all over the place but I don't know how much my opinion would change if the wee devils were digging up a family plot!
Anne
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Don't mean to be a moan but you should really see the state of the graves at Basildon Church in Berkshire. The stones are terrible; the churchwardens 'have to let the wildlife flourish' within the churchyard - but surely we need some respect for the dead?
For example, my great-grandparents are buried there, along with most of their brothers and sisters, the last in 1964. Even this gravestone is no-where to be found. The church was effectively 'abandoned' in 1970 when the new church was built in Basildon (st Stephens) but that doesn't mean that generations of family should be forgotten about to let the wildlife live there?
Brambles, stinging nettles, reeds, trees in the middle of gravestones growing through the resting places of many a Basildon inhabitant - why? The only graves that are in some sort of order are those sheltered by trees - a select few in the back corner. The oldest gravestone there that I have seen is 1910 under a tree in the back corner, and then 1804, of Sir Francis Sykes 2nd Bt who has a marvellous grave - but wanton vandalism has destroyed the outlying metal guard.
I'm sorry to have a rant but it really is sad that council's have no respect for those who actually built the country the way it is. :(
Matt
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I read somewhere, and I can't think where, that some local council has, or is threatening to do so, flattened all the gravestones, and TURFED over them!!!! ::) ::)
Luckily I've been able to take photographs of most of my ancestors' gravestones, even those laid out in pathways, so at least I've got the evidence, but a lot of other people haven't or won't have that opportunity.
Unfortunately we now live in such a money-orientated world that everything is controlled by accountants!
BumbleB
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Matt
If we don't have a rant then no one will take any notice of us. I am sick and tired of seeing our graveyards being left to rot. Our fore fathers built, fought, and died for our country its about time we gave them something back. Below is a photograph of a gravestone to the memory of a soldier who died in the second world war, lest we forget, yeah right. This picture was taken in the middle of winter, you can just imagine what it will look like in the hight of summer.
Gary
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Believe me, if i was old enough to drive, I would by trying my hardest to make rubbings, take pictures and try and conserve our graveyards in any way possible. I would be up at Basildon like a shot cleaning up, pruning weeds, but to be honest the work would never be done. It is just such a shame. That soldier's grave - such waste.
We should adopt a scheme like the pupils at Pangbourne College did - the community clearup. They all went down to Pangbourne St James and spent an hour cleaning, scrubbing and tidying graves. Good on them.
I shall have to have a look at the Churchyard at Silchester and see what the state of the stones are there.
Matt
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Funny enough just returned from the Graveside of My late Mum in Law, Mothers day and also her Birthday.
One thing I have been aware of for a while is if the Families don't maintain Graves, the council will do little, and I believe there is a reason for it..
Very often local news broadcasts the outrage of families because The Council have removed/laid dow stones"because they are an Health Risk, in the event they fall"
In my opinion and on close inspection very often it is the Council responsible for the damage.
I urge you to check your family and surrounding plots for the tale tale. signs of power mower damage.
We have a few and many not so well attended Graves are laying flat with Health risk Signs on them.
I believe this is in the long term an oppertunity being carried out by local authorities to reclaim plots earlier than the Plot time, roughly 100 years.
If no one complains they will grab em.
Regards the soldiers Grave, which council is it that is responsible for it, or maybe the local TV station.
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We have a problem with my grandads grave - not with HIS grave a such but with the one next to him.
The family planted a tree on the grave, I have no problem with that ........ but it has grown huge and is pushing over the small headstone on my grandads grave.
I have been into the office of the graveyard & asked them to do something about it, but their response is "its the grave owners responsibility" ....... but they cant give me the address of the grave owner, and wont write to them themselves ................ ok, so what do I do? write to the man in the grave for goodness sake?
I am not allowed to do anything with the tree, neither can the graveyard office ........... so I am stuck with a listing gravestone that we want to replace with a 'proper' one with both my grandparents names on now ............. but until this is sorted we cant, cos I dont want to pay and risk the headstone listing in the next few years.
I asked a Headstone mason to come & look - and he told me that he wouldnt be able to put a headstone up with the roots as they are - and if they damaged the roots fixing it an the tree became unstable WE (the company & my family) would be responsible !
Gaille
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Hmmmm I wonder if like trees and branches overgrowing and hanging over your property you can force the owners of the tree and that grave to do something with it at their expense
If it was your garden you are at liberty to cut back branches as long as you give the bits you cut off back to the owner
As for them not telling you, I think I'd be argueing that or using my local councillor and MP lets face it local councilors have nothing else to do
Get on to them, make them earn that vote and expenses
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Man of Kent
The War graves commission pays local authorities to take care of these graves and if they are not kept in the manner we would expect then I'd get in touch with them as well, they will contact the local authority as well but councillors, papers, and local TV always a good thing
I often visit graveyards and often seen war graves where any graves that can be easily seen are kept and a amistice day ceremony is held, but ones in other less visited are forgotten
It always upsets me when I see them, well kept or not, though I must say not as much as yesterday when I came across my first 'Iraq' casualty grave, talk about hitting home
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Hi all yes it is terrible that many of the graves are vandalised.
But on a good note. I recentley visited the Cornelain Bay Cemetery which is the main Cemetery in Hobart Tasmania which was opened in 1872. While there I noticed that a lot of the older graves with headstones which noone visits anymore due to no living relatives being around anymore ,that quite a few were broken in half or in quite a few peices and were neatly cemented back together. This I would say has been done by the Southern Regional Cemetery Trust who have taken over the upkeep of the Cemetery from the Local Council. I was very impressed by this.
Maybe every Cemetery needs a Cemetery Trust like the one we have here.
The grounds are always kept neat and tidy and it is a huge Cemetery. It is a pleasure to visit.
The only thing I can grumble about is the Pluvvers[birds] that build their nests near the graves and then get quite upset and dive bomb you when you come near their nests accidently ;D
I have been chased a few times and had to run for my life. :o
Johngirl
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:D
I have been chased a few times and had to run for my life.
great foe wild life ;)
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Andrew R:
I think, although I could be totally wrong, that the CWGC only look after the official CWGC headstones, and the one shown in the photograph isn't one of those, I'm afraid, I think it's a private gravestone to someone who lost their life in battle. All the official war graves are of the same basic design and are all white "Portland?" stone.
My grandfather is mentioned on the family grave in Yorkshire, but his official CWGC commemoration is on the Thiepval Memorial in France.
BumbleB
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BumbleB
Your probally correct
Theres a site http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?p=55, which shows me the one in Minto and its not a standard war Grave, but still a plain simple but poignant stone
Andrew
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Something that caught my attention earlier this evening on TV, was the story of a couple selling their home, which had once been the village church where some of my ancestors were baptised.
While they have obviously turned it into a lovely comfortable home (if you fancy living in a former church that is ;D), it still has the original external 'church' appearance and comes complete with graveyard. Some headstones are obviously still in their original place, but permission was given for others to be moved and these now stand alongside a wall. :o
Anyone wanting to visit the graveyard now, must make a prior appointment with the owners (apparently it's not a problem as they usually only get a couple of queries each year and that's mainly from people doing their family tree ;))... and how upsetting it must be to any visitors, who find their family headstone moved and no longer with the grave. :'(
justmej
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I know a few places where the stones have been moved around to the edges often to make the area into a "garden" such as St Nicholas's gardens at Whitehaven where I live, it looks okay and is a quiet area in the middle of the town but all the gravestones have been laid face up and now so worn as people walk over them
Its called progess I think, mind you when they done this they lost a very important grave and stone that of George Washington's maternal Grandmother
As Homer Simpson says "Duh"
AR
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Upkeep of graveyards seems to be a national problem, certainly in England.
It would appear to be an ideal occupation for those sentenced to community service?
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Yes surly there could be a plan set up to clear them up
alot of them would only need a good strim (petrol strimmer)over a couple of times a year
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Hi :)
It is so sad that often nonconformist chapels are sold off with devastating results. :'(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6335935.stm
My great and 2x great grandparents were buried in the chapel mentioned on this link.
My great grandfather was a renowned preacher within the local Wesleyan circuit and had a wonderful column erected on his grave at what must have been great expense to a leadminers family. He was re-interred at the local cemetery along with both my great grandmother and his first wife.
A small sign was placed at the new site saying the date the re-interrment took place but does not list the people who had been moved from their previous resting place. :-\
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I sympatise with Maidmarion. Near Bucks Cross, ( Clovelly ) is a chapel turned house and the foundation stones with their carvings have been chipped away. Only window shapes etc. tell what that building was originally. Very sad.
Toby.