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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Forfarian on Friday 17 January 20 21:04 GMT (UK)
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I have a note that Joy Gertrude Hudson was born at Kirwee, mid Canterbury, on the road to Springfield, Uncle John Black's farm.
Joy was the daughter of Robert Hudson (1886-1960) and Violet Ivy Pratt (1892-1967). Robert's mother was Adalina Mary Black or Hudson, born 1957 in London, died 26 September 1915 in Christchurch, NZ.
I see that a John Black, born 6 May 1889, died in New Zealand in 1986. This would fit with Adalina's cousin John, son of James Black and Margaret Alice Burdes, whose birth was registered in the June quarter of 1889 in Sunderland, England.
For the avoidance of duplication, I have a thread looking for Adalina's husband (Robert's father) George Hudson at https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=646131.0 but this doesn't refer to Uncle John.
How might I find out if the John Black who died in 1986 was indeed the one born in Sunderland, cousin to Adalina?
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This might suggest a connection?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ovv/
EDIT: There are other articles on Paperspast too, with perhaps references to various John BLACKs in the Canterbury region. http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ovx/
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Thank you!
Yes, that first one is a connection. Not the man I was actually looking for, but his uncle, whom I had also lost track of. Born 1865 in Sunderland, disappeared after 1881.
I'll look through the others but I'm afraid my knowledge of NZ geography will need a bit of work otherwise I won't be able to work out which ones are relevant.
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Here's a start about Kirwee (and Springfield) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirwee
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There is a probate at Christchurch Archives for the John BLACK died 1986 if you want to ask for a look-up (see https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=508522.0).
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=1933030
Technically you could go through a process of elimination for all the John BLACKs and see if there is a marriage (NZ BDMH website: https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search/search?path=%2FqueryEntry.m%3Ftype%3Dmarriages) for which you could ask for an Intention to Marry (ITM) look up OR a marriage PRINTOUT (not certificate) that may get you a little closer.
ITM usually has how long in the district - not necessarily in the country though.
Marriage printout will have names of parents.
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Thank you.
I have been amusing myself tracking the older one. He married Louisa Meredith in 1890, and they had four of a family. He was prominent in local affairs in Waimate, being involved in various committees and ultimately becoming Mayor of Waimate. In about 1915 he resigned from everything in Waimate and took on a sheep farm in Blenheim. He also set up home with another woman, following which his wife divorced him in 1916. He married the other woman in 1918, after which I again lost track of him. The second wife died in 1959.
Short of sending off for a certificate, is there any way of telling from the death reference where in NZ a birth, death or marriage occurred?
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Interesting probate revealed in the Christchurch district court 1888 for a John Black Sheriff Substitute of Stornaway
No obvious sign why.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-8922-LPX4?i=119&cc=1865481&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQK9V-LZTM
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Very curious, but not mine, I'm afraid.
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Short of sending off for a certificate, is there any way of telling from the death reference where in NZ a birth, death or marriage occurred?
Not from the online reference at NZ BDMH, but instead from the corresponding Birth or Death (not marriage) on the microfiche copy. There are a set of indexed booklets that are usually found alongside the microfiche that allow a researcher to look at the microfiche reference numbers and find the registration district.
If you have an idea of the area of death though, look for a cemetery. Some researchers have a cd of deaths from a national genealogy organisation they can look at too.
For the timeframe you are looking at births for, Paperspast online is useful.
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Hello,
Just getting my 'bearings' on this one....... :)
1890 marriage:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TS18900517.2.8?end_date=31-12-1927&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=john+black+&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1878&title=TS%2cSUNCH%2cCHP%2cOO&type=ARTICLE
1918 marriage:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TS19180715.2.2.2?end_date=31-12-1927&items_per_page=10&page=2&phrase=2&query=john+black+&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1878&title=TS%2cSUNCH%2cCHP%2cOO&type=ARTICLE
Minniehaha.
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Forfarian,
I have sent you a PM with a link to the death notice for a John Black who died in Wellington on 7 January 1942, husband of Maria and father of xxxxx. Interred at Karori cemetery on 9 January 1942.
Another death notice in the Evening Post (Wellington newspaper) on 8 January 1942 states husband of "Ethel Maria Black" 79 Oroua Street, Eastbourne (Wellington).
TPB
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Link to burial record for John Black at Karori cemetery, Wellington
https://wellington.govt.nz/services/community-and-culture/cemeteries/search-cemetery-records/details?id=35248&serviceType=Burial&previousPage=%2fservices%2fcommunity-and-culture%2fcemeteries%2fsearch-cemetery-records%2fresults%3fserviceType%3dAll%26firstNames%3djohn%26lastName%3dbl
TPB
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His obituary.......
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19420219.2.116?end_date=31-12-1942&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=john+black&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1942&title=DOM%2cEP%2cNZFL%2cHN%2cHVI%2cKOP%2cMKURA%2cMATUH%2cNZCPNA%2cNZGWS%2cNZMAIL%2cNZSCSG%2cNZTIM%2cOTMAIL%2cPUKEH%2cUHWR%2cVT%2cWAG%2cWDT%2cWAIST%2cWI
Minniehaha.
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Joining the dots here and hoping that two & two don't make five! but the following details possibly relate to the daughter named in the death notice & obituary. [I do note that the initials of the Broadbridge man are not the same.]
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19450326.2.95.5?end_date=31-12-1945&items_per_page=10&query=broadbridge&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1945&title=DOM%2cEP%2cNZFL%2cHN%2cHVI%2cKOP%2cMKURA%2cMATUH%2cNZCPNA%2cNZGWS%2cNZMAIL%2cNZSCSG%2cNZTIM%2cOTMAIL%2cPUKEH%2cUHWR%2cVT%2cWAG%2cWDT%2cWAIST%2cWI
2006/20587 Broadbridge Hazel Elisabeth Stewart 10 July 1923
1988/30095 Broadbridge Cyril Desmond 1 July 1917
https://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/namedetails.php?name=666261
[There is a marriage for the couple above after the cut off date on NZ BDM.]
Minniehaha.
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NSW Marriage Index:
11853/1911 PERRY, William G TIMMS, Ethel M District: Sydney
Ethel Maria or Maria Ethel's maiden name was TIMMS
TPB
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The 1896 and 1900 electoral rolls for Kaiapoi record John and Louisa Black at East Oxford. John was a Farmer.
The 1911 and 1914 electoral roll for Temuka record John and Louisa Black at Timaru Road, Waimate. John was a Sheep Farmer.
In 1919 Hurunui electoral roll and the 1928 Marlborough electoral roll they were at Leatham, Blenheim. John was a Sheep farmer.
The 1935 and 1938 electoral roll record John and Maria Black at 79 Oroua Street, Eastbourne. John was a Caretaker. Maria was still at this address in 1946.
John Black was Mayor of Waimate from 1912 to 1915 when Mr Francis defeated him for the position.
At the time of the visit of Mr Massey, PM on 18 March 1913, Mr John Black was Mayor.
At the outbreak of WW1 on 4 August 1914, the Mayor Mr John Black convened a public meeting in the Olympia Hall on the evening of Friday 7 August 1914.
(Source: Te Waimatemate - History of Waimate County and Borough by William Greenwood, pgs 268, 319, 321).
In this book there are also references to; Wally Black, W E Black, W J Black and William P Black in case they are of interest?
TPB
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Divorce file: [open access]
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=8669229
Newspaper reports re divorce proceedings:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OW19160524.2.5?end_date=31-12-1917&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=louisa+black&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1914&title=AHCOG%2cBH%2cCL%2cCROMARG%2cDUNST%2cESD%2cLCM%2cLCP%2cLWM%2cME%2cMIC%2cMTBM%2cNOT%2cOAM%2cODT%2cOW%2cOSWCC%2cSOCR%2cST%2cTT%2cWSTAR
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD19160516.2.36?end_date=31-12-1917&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=louisa+black&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1914&title=AHCOG%2cBH%2cCL%2cCROMARG%2cDUNST%2cESD%2cLCM%2cLCP%2cLWM%2cME%2cMIC%2cMTBM%2cNOT%2cOAM%2cODT%2cOW%2cOSWCC%2cSOCR%2cST%2cTT%2cWSTAR
Minniehaha.
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Straying a bit here...... ::)
Birth:
1869/25612 Meredith Louisa Louisa Richard
Remarriage?
1922/2098 Louisa Black John Reid
Her death ?:
1945/31297 Reid Louisa 76Y
Minniehaha.
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Short of sending off for a certificate, is there any way of telling from the death reference where in NZ a birth, death or marriage occurred?
Not from the online reference at NZ BDMH, but instead from the corresponding Birth or Death (not marriage) on the microfiche copy. There are a set of indexed booklets that are usually found alongside the microfiche that allow a researcher to look at the microfiche reference numbers and find the registration district.
Thank you. Not very practical for me, being 12,000 miles away from the index books, but at least you've confirmed that it can be done :)
I do use online cemetery records, and PapersPast, quite a lot.
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Thank you to Minniehaha and Tgapitbull for all the information, I did have some of it from PapersPast, but all the death, burial and obituary information, plus Ethel's first marriage, were new (I had to get some sleep or I'd have been up all night, cross-eyed :) )
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Joining the dots here and hoping that two & two don't make five! but the following details possibly relate to the daughter named in the death notice & obituary. I do note that the initials of the Broadbridge man are not the same.
But it's a wartime marriage and he is named as LAC Broadbridge not Mr LAC Broadbridge. LAC could be Leading Aircraft Man.
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(Source: Te Waimatemate - History of Waimate County and Borough by William Greenwood, pgs 268, 319, 321).
In this book there are also references to; Wally Black, W E Black, W J Black and William P Black in case they are of interest?
I don't know. In my database there are no Walter Blacks, and I have dates and places of death for 18 of the 20 William Blacks, none of whom has a middle name.
Of the two whose dates of death I don't have, one was born in 1755 and died before 1764, so it's obviously not him.
The other was a plain William Black born in Sunderland in 1896. He was the nephew of the NZ John Black (1865-1942) and eldest son of the William Black who was a partner in the shipowners Albyn Line. However I don't think he eimgrated to NZ because it's probable that he took over his father's shipowning and insurance business interests. His next brother died in Zimbabwe in 1989 and the third brother went into the Army and was made a CBE in 1960 for political and public services in Durham.
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Joining the dots here and hoping that two & two don't make five! but the following details possibly relate to the daughter named in the death notice & obituary. I do note that the initials of the Broadbridge man are not the same.
But it's a wartime marriage and he is named as LAC Broadbridge not Mr LAC Broadbridge. LAC could be Leading Aircraft Man.
I did wonder about that [LAC]; looks as if I may have been on the right track anyway. :)
Minniehaha.
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Forfarian,
I have sent you 2 PMs.
One is about Broadbridge Transport, Wairau Valley, Marlborough and includes a link to a story with photos, about the company.
TPB
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Thank you.
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Joining the dots here and hoping that two & two don't make five! but the following details possibly relate to the daughter named in the death notice & obituary.
Your arithmetic is flawless, Minniehaha. Some help from Tgapitbull has led me to the attached, from the Evening Post of 5 July 1941.
Though it must have been a long engagement because Hazel was still Miss Hazel Black in the wedding report you found in 1945.
PS In what year did the wedding take place?
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Hello Forfarian,
Because the marriage does not yet appear on the NZ BDM website we are not permitted to show it here but I will send the year to you via PM. :)
Minniehaha.
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Thank you. I didn't realise the ban included marriage dates even if both have since died.
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PM sent...... :)
Minniehaha.
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.... and received. Thank you.
Fascinating .... Maria Ethel Timms, second wife of John Black, was first cousin once removed to Alice Mary Timms, mother of Cyril Desmond Broadbridge, so Hazel and her husband were second cousins once removed to one another.
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From the first post I don't think we have established on the forum, when the child was born at the farm of 'Uncle John'.
This appears to be her birth:
1914/3433 Hudson Joy Gertrude Violet Ivy Robert
Marriage of her parents:
1913/4197 Violet Ivy Pratt Robert Hudson
Minniehaha.
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My apologies, I did have that and should have included it.
I still can't find anything on 'Uncle John' earlier than that 1986 will. I wondered if he could have been the 1865-1942 one, but he had moved to Blenheim by the time Joy would have been old enough to know where he lived, and there's no other evidence that he lived in Kirwee/Springfield anyway.
I did try the 1925 register of electors, but there are an awful lot of John Blacks, and they are listed by electoral divisions, and I have yet to discover which of the EDs I don't recognise is where.
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John Black Sheriff Substitute of Stornaway
Just out of curiosity, I had a quick look for this John Black.
He died in Stornoway in 1887, aged 59. In the 1881 census he and his sisters Katherine Inglis and Isobel Elizabeth, all unmarried, all born in Kirkcaldy, Fife were living together in Stornoway. They were three of the nine children of Roger Black and Rachel Law.
Roger Black was born in Kinglassie, Fife, and was a lawyer, and Rachel was born in Kirkcaldy. Roger Black, mother's maiden surname Inglis, died in Kirkcaldy in 1857, aged 60. Rachel Law or Black died in Edinburgh in 1872, aged 70. Their son, John's brother Roger, also became a lawyer, and was Procurator Fiscal in Kirkcaldy.
There are several obituaries for John Black in the Ross-shire and Fife local newspapers, from which he seems to have been the usual sort of exemplary chap. He was buried in the family grave in Kirkcaldy. I have no idea why his will turns up in the NZ probate records; it was Confirmed in Dingwall Sheriff Court (which is where I'd expect) on 25 August 1887 and Sealed in England on 9 September 1887.
(In Scots Law there is no such thing as Probate; the corresponding process is Confirmation. A will Confirmed in Scotland can be Sealed in another jurisdictions, and Probate granted elsewhere can be Sealed in Scotland, which saves having to go through the complete rigmarole in both or all jurisdictions.)
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Hello,
Part quote:
'I have no idea why his will turns up in the NZ probate records; it was Confirmed in Dingwall Sheriff Court (which is where I'd expect) on 25 August 1887 and Sealed in England on 9 September 1887.'
One explanation: He had assets in New Zealand which required the probate to be resealed.
Minniehaha.
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Hello,
Part quote:
'I have no idea why his will turns up in the NZ probate records; it was Confirmed in Dingwall Sheriff Court (which is where I'd expect) on 25 August 1887 and Sealed in England on 9 September 1887.'
One explanation: He had assets in New Zealand which required the probate to be resealed.
Minniehaha.
Presumably, but the original confirmation mentions only property in Scotland and England.
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Quite possibly a case of "after discovered assets"......... ;)
Minniehaha.
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:)
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I have found this Black - Springfield snippet for 1927......
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19270106.2.134.6?end_date=31-12-1948&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=black+springfield&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1885&title=AMBPA%2cAG%2cASHH%2cEG%2cGLOBE%2cLT%2cNCGAZ%2cOO%2cCHP%2cSCANT%2cTS%2cSUNCH%2cTEML%2cTHD%2cWDA
Minniehaha.
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Part quote:
"I did try the 1925 register of electors, but there are an awful lot of John Blacks, and they are listed by electoral divisions, and I have yet to discover which of the EDs I don't recognise is where."
Off the top of my head I would try Selwyn or maybe Waimate?
Other Rootschatters may have a better idea or even look for you. :)
Minniehaha.
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Thank you. It seems that Kirwee and Springfield are in Selwyn District. However none of the plain John Blacks, or the John Blacks with a middle name, listed in 1925 is in either Selwyn or Waimate in the electoral roll.
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Mmmm, that is frustrating.
I think from your first post that we are looking for the farm being in Springfield, rather than Kirwee?
Or is that not how you interpret the note?
"born at Kirwee, mid Canterbury, on the road to Springfield, Uncle John Black's farm."
Minniehaha.
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I think from your first post that we are looking for the farm being in Springfield, rather than Kirwee.
Yes. Or somewhere along the road from Kirwee to Springfield.
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I have found from the 1914 Selwyn ER a Lytel John Black, Annat, Farmer. He was there in 1911 and in 1919.
Annat is on the road between Sheffield and Springfield.
TPB
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Death:
1966/36453 Black Lytel John 76Y ??
Added: His birth-
1890/3176 Black Lyttle John Rose Kate James
Added: Marriage-
1938/4365 Grace Nellie Doak Lytel John Black
Minniehaha.
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Very interesting!
Clearly Lyttle John Black is not the John Black I originally posted about, who was born in Sunderland in 1889, but could be a relative, perhaps.
No marriage of James Black or John Black to Rose, either in NZ or in Scotland or England. No death of a Rose Kate Black or Rose Catherine Black. No other children with mother Rose Kate, but one, William Charles, b 1900 to James Black and Rose Catherine. No remarriage of Rose Kate or Rose Catherine Black in NZ.
Only one death of a Rose Black old enough to have been the mother of Lyttle, in 1947. There's a death notice in the Otago Daily Times of 22 September 1947 of Rose, widow of John Black ??? In the same grave with her is John Black, died 11 October 1920 aged 82, native of Ireland. So not related to me (or, if related, impossible to prove).
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So, back to square one. We will keep trying...... :)
Minniehaha.
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Do you have a copy of Joy's birth registration?
If so could you advise the details as this may provide some further clues.
TPB
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Do you have a copy of Joy's birth registration?
No, I don't.
I am looking to verify and expand information given to me. I have some family stories and other information from a relative on Joy's grandfather's side, who is not related to me, and I think it was from there that I got the snippet about Kirwee, the road to Springfield and 'Uncle John Black'. So far, it has all proved correct. This is where I am at the moment:
I have her father's YoB and district of birth from the English birth index, and his DoB from that and from his NZ death index, and I have his burial record.
I have her mother's YoB and district of birth from the English BMD indexes, and her DoB from her NZ death index, and I have her burial record.
I have the birth indexes of Joy and her brother and sister, and their dates of birth from their NZ death indexes. I have her siblings' burials, but not Joy's so far but only because I haven't got round to looking it up.
All burials found so far are in Christchurch.
I know what the Black connection is; Joy's father's mother was Adalina Mary Black, who died in Christchurch in 1915, and I have reams and reams of information about almost every member of that extended family. One exception is Adalina's nephew John Black, born 1889 in Sunderland, listed in the 1901 census in Sunderland, and then disappeared. Though there are two hints that he may not, after all, have left England. One is a John Black in a register of electors in England in 1945, and the other is that probate of his sister Eleanor's estate in 1955 was granted to John Black, night watchman. If these are indeed him, then he obviously isn't 'Uncle John Black' in New Zealand. Which, since the John Black (1865-1942) you have all found for me is not known to have farmed near Kirwee, and is known to have been living in Waimate in 1914 when Joy was born, still leaves unanswered the original question of who 'Uncle John Black' was.
I have to admit that, having been spoiled by instant access to Scottish BMD certificates for less than the price of a cup of coffee, I find the cost of English, Welsh, Australian, New Zealand etc certificates very offputting. If Joy's bc were to confirm an actual address where she was born, rather than just saying 'Springfield Road, Kirwee', will that actually help to find 'Uncle John Black' in practice?
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I am wondering if finding something in the Deeds Nominal Index book, Crown Grants or Land Title register for the John Black from
Kirwee Springfield might be a next step? There may possibly be a tidbit of extra information to place this fellow? I am not personally familiar with these records so this is a long shot. Perhaps other Rootschatters will have researched this avenue and fill us in ....
A NZ Archives guide on property as a starting point:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01oxd/
LINZ guide:
https://www.linz.govt.nz/land/land-records/search-for-land-records/historic-land-records
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Part quote:
"Which, since the John Black (1865-1942) you have all found for me is not known to have farmed near Kirwee, and is known to have been living in Waimate in 1914 when Joy was born, still leaves unanswered the original question of who 'Uncle John Black' was."
You should keep in mind that the Electoral Rolls were not necessarily right up to date with information. By the time the details went to print, some electors may have moved to another address. :)
Minniehaha.