RootsChat.Com

Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: searchr on Saturday 18 January 20 05:21 GMT (UK)

Title: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Saturday 18 January 20 05:21 GMT (UK)
2, 3 or 4 people?
I am having trouble sorting out who is who.
A Charles WILSON married a Sarah WATSON in 1844 in Tasmania. From Tasmania’s wonderful records it can be seen that Sarah was a convict sentenced in Dublin in Aug 1842 at 19y (so b abt 1823) and sentenced to 7 y transportation. She was sent over on the Waverley and given permission to marry Charles, who seems to have been a gardener at the time, and free, from the marriage in Hobart Church of St Joseph (RC).
They had a child, Charles, from the Tasmanian records, born 28 Jan 1846, with Charles a labourer and the mother Sarah WILSON formerly WATSON. (On Family Search there is a child called Thomas born on that date to Charles WILSON and Sarah, and buried in Toowong cemetery, Brisbane, Queensland, from Brisbane grave location search, 29 May 1928 79y with wife Katherine & children: but this means he was b 1849 not 1846. A trove article gives his age as 84, making his birth about 1844. His death in the Queensland records just gives his parents as Charles and Sarah WILSON.)
Sarah WATSON’s convict number is 506 so she is fairly easy to confirm up to here as one person and Tasmanian records online even have her description. Find my Past has some more information e.g. at the end of 1846 Sarah seems to have received a conditional pardon.
It’s possible that in 1846 “Sarah WILSON” may have gone, without her husband, to Victoria on the Swan from Hobart 29 Oct 1846, but this is only a guess.
A Sarah Ann WILSON died at 10 months 26 May 1847, child of a convict. This is the last possible trace I can find of Sarah WATSON in Tasmania, possibly as Sarah Ann’s mother. It doesn’t give a father in the Tasmanian d records and I haven’t found a b.
After this a Charles WILSON, fisherman or boatman, has children in Hobart with Sarah WILSON formerly BOND, starting with Sarah Ann WILSON b 29 Aug 1847. They go to New South Wales, possibly (from Blaxland Oz Ships) on the Africa as Mr. and Mrs. Wilson and family May 1853, and have more children.
There is a Sarah WILSON bu Camperdown Cemetery 25 Jul 1860 37 y from e.g. Find A Grave and Project Gutenberg. This fits Sarah WATSON from her age and Sarah BOND from the burial of “Rosina” in the same cemetery, 3mos old in 1854, one of a Charles and a Sarah’s children in that year being “Rosanna” in the New South Wales b and d records. Does this mean Sarah WATSON and Sarah BOND are the same person?
I can’t find anything about Sarah BOND or Charles WILSON really, except that family search has Charles as b 1814 in Lincolnshire.
Libraries Tasmania’s convict portal says convict women were encouraged to marry, some into families of free settlers, but that because neither men nor women could remarry without evidence of their spouse’s death, they tended to go on to have children with others without remarrying.
It’s possible that there were 2 different Charles Wilsons.
It’s possible that Sarah Watson changed her name for some reason, maybe to disguise her convict past, and didn’t go to Victoria.
It’s possible that the same Charles WILSON started a relationship with a Sarah BOND, possibly after Sarah WATSON went off to Victoria and they couldn’t marry. The Sarah Ann child dying and then a new Sarah Ann being born makes me think this is the same Charles WILSON.
An Ancestry tree has Sarah as WATSON or BOND.
What do people think: 2, 3 or 4 people? I’m guessing 3, maybe 2 but not 4. I’ve tried bdm, bu and trove abt their children, with info about their partners from family search, and found no more clues. I’m wondering if I should get the d cert of the Sarah WILSON who d in 1860
WILSON SARAH; 8791/1860 V18608791 122B; AGE 37 YEARS
but I don’t hold out a lot of hope abt the information that could be in it and these people are sideways relations rather than direct. I will do it though, I think, if people can’t cast further light.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Saturday 18 January 20 06:20 GMT (UK)
2, 3 or 4 people?
I am having trouble sorting out who is who.
A Charles WILSON married a Sarah WATSON in 1844 in Tasmania. From Tasmania’s wonderful records it can be seen that Sarah was a convict sentenced in Dublin in Aug 1842 at 19y (so b abt 1823) and sentenced to 7 y transportation. She was sent over on the Waverley and given permission to marry Charles, who seems to have been a gardener at the time, and free, from the marriage in Hobart Church of St Joseph (RC).


They had a child, Charles, from the Tasmanian records, born 28 Jan 1846, with Charles a labourer and the mother Sarah WILSON formerly WATSON.

(On Family Search there is a child called Thomas born on that date to Charles WILSON and Sarah, and buried in Toowong cemetery, Brisbane, Queensland, from Brisbane grave location search, 29 May 1928 79y with wife Katherine & children: but this means he was b 1849 not 1846. A trove article gives his age as 84, making his birth about 1844. His death in the Queensland records just gives his parents as Charles and Sarah WILSON.)


Sarah WATSON’s convict number is 506 so she is fairly easy to confirm up to here as one person and Tasmanian records online even have her description. Find my Past has some more information e.g. at the end of 1846 Sarah seems to have received a conditional pardon.

It’s possible that in 1846 “Sarah WILSON” may have gone, without her husband, to Victoria on the Swan from Hobart 29 Oct 1846, but this is only a guess.

A Sarah Ann WILSON died at 10 months 26 May 1847, child of a convict. This is the last possible trace I can find of Sarah WATSON in Tasmania, possibly as Sarah Ann’s mother. It doesn’t give a father in the Tasmanian d records and I haven’t found a b.


After this a Charles WILSON, fisherman or boatman, has children in Hobart with Sarah WILSON formerly BOND, starting with Sarah Ann WILSON b 29 Aug 1847.

They go to New South Wales, possibly (from Blaxland Oz Ships) on the Africa as Mr. and Mrs. Wilson and family May 1853, and have more children.


There is a Sarah WILSON bu Camperdown Cemetery 25 Jul 1860 37 y from e.g. Find A Grave and Project Gutenberg. This fits Sarah WATSON from her age and Sarah BOND from the burial of “Rosina” in the same cemetery, 3mos old in 1854, one of a Charles and a Sarah’s children in that year being “Rosanna” in the New South Wales b and d records. Does this mean Sarah WATSON and Sarah BOND are the same person?


I can’t find anything about Sarah BOND or Charles WILSON really, except that family search has Charles as b 1814 in Lincolnshire.


Libraries Tasmania’s convict portal says convict women were encouraged to marry, some into families of free settlers, but that because neither men nor women could remarry without evidence of their spouse’s death, they tended to go on to have children with others without remarrying.


It’s possible that there were 2 different Charles Wilsons.

It’s possible that Sarah Watson changed her name for some reason, maybe to disguise her convict past, and didn’t go to Victoria.

It’s possible that the same Charles WILSON started a relationship with a Sarah BOND, possibly after Sarah WATSON went off to Victoria and they couldn’t marry. The Sarah Ann child dying and then a new Sarah Ann being born makes me think this is the same Charles WILSON.

An Ancestry tree has Sarah as WATSON or BOND.


What do people think: 2, 3 or 4 people? I’m guessing 3, maybe 2 but not 4. I’ve tried bdm, bu and trove abt their children, with info about their partners from family search, and found no more clues.

I’m wondering if I should get the d cert of the Sarah WILSON who d in 1860
WILSON SARAH; 8791/1860 V18608791 122B; AGE 37 YEARS
but I don’t hold out a lot of hope abt the information that could be in it and these people are sideways relations rather than direct. I will do it though, I think, if people can’t cast further light.

That reference is NOT for NSW civil registration death certificate. It is for an Early Church Record from 1860,  volume 122B,  line 8791.  It is a burial record only.  It will NOT have the vital family history section about where  when the deceased was born, where, when married, name of spouse, name and age of the then living children, nor will it have cause of death or duration of illness. 

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: wivenhoe on Saturday 18 January 20 06:26 GMT (UK)


You have too many possibilities / variables here....and Tas, NSW, Vic and QLD locations.

Who are you researching?  Are you researching the origins of someone, which leads you to these possibilities.   

Who are you researching?
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Monday 20 January 20 09:11 GMT (UK)
Thanks so much for the information about the NSW record. I didn't know that.
I am focusing on these 2, 3 or 4 people at the moment. I have checked a lot about their children and tried trove about their specific events in the hope that their parents would be mentioned. I just put this in here on the outside chance that someone might actually be researching these people too and have some more information. It's a bit tricky to enter information in a tree if you don't know if it's 2, 3 or 4 people. Sarah WATSON's being a convict is of extra interest. I came to it through one of the children of Charles WILSON and Sarah formerly BOND. If there's no more information that's fine I guess.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: matthewj64 on Monday 20 January 20 09:44 GMT (UK)
She has been researched for the Female Convicts Research Centre database. Their research suggests that she was also known as Sarah Bond and died in Sydney in 1860 reg.1375
It lists a number of relatives and other information that would be best to view and evaluate directly from their database (free registration required)
https://www.femaleconvicts.org.au/

M

Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: Dundee on Monday 20 January 20 14:13 GMT (UK)
They had a child, Charles, from the Tasmanian records, born 28 Jan 1846

A Sarah Ann WILSON died at 10 months 26 May 1847

To have the same mother the second child would have to be a few months premature and is unlikely to have survived the birth.

Find my Past has some more information e.g. at the end of 1846 Sarah seems to have received a conditional pardon.

The date of the conditional pardon was 4 Jul 1848, not 1846.

https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON40-1-10  (image 226)

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Monday 20 January 20 20:42 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the last 2 posts. I'll investigate further soon. I've started the registration process for the database.
I'll look again about the pardon. I don't think I was certain about the date at the time, or could be certain about it from the image. It was from HO 10/60 from the tab, and was about an indulgence. In the National Archives HO 10/60 seems to be about conditional pardons. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1905897

It looks like this is Sarah's d registration, from your information:
WILSON SARAH; 1375/1860; UNKNOWN; DIED SYDNEY; SYDNEY; Unavailable
I'd looked at it and wondered.
I see what you mean about the Sarah Ann birth. It was just an idea.
It looks like Charles and Sarah are 2 people at this stage, do you think? It also looks like that wasn't the Sarah who went to Victoria,.
Thanks again.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Monday 20 January 20 22:55 GMT (UK)
After this a Charles WILSON, fisherman or boatman, has children in Hobart with Sarah WILSON formerly BOND, starting with Sarah Ann WILSON b 29 Aug 1847. They go to New South Wales, possibly (from Blaxland Oz Ships) on the Africa as Mr. and Mrs. Wilson and family May 1853, and have more children.

Convictism to NSW effectively ceased in 1840.  So, the numbers of those who were still serving under a bond continued to diminish significantly. By 1846, the population of NSW excluding the Port Phillip District was roughly 189,600 and by 1851 it had only slightly risen ... to 189,950

BUT by 1856 the population of NSW was 269,700 and by 1861 it was 353,000 - GOLD fever had echoed around the world, people rushed to the colonies of NSW and Vic. 

WILSON as a surname is not just a popular surname among convicts to NSW or VDL.   It was also a popular surname among those who came free, some as part of garrison forces, others as emigrants seeking a new start.    Even in this current era, Wilson continues to be in the top 5 surnames in Australia (Smith, then Jones, then Williams, then Brown and then Wilson).

Charles as a first name was and continues to be another of those popular names, and can be found as Chas in many 19th century newspaper cuttings. 

From Trove in 1854 to support the Wilson family our OP mentions moving from Tas to NSW via the vessel Africa in 1853.

 :) Charles and one other noted by the Chairman of a Committee as a fisherman skilled to fish salmon, mullet, etc of the well-boat referred to as Boat 7 in the report for a proposed Sydney based fishing fleet.   https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12959813  SMH 14 Feb 1854

 :) Charles of the well-boat Trumpeter off Bradley’s Head (Sydney harbour) Empire 12 June 1854 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/60196268

But how to confirm or eliminate either the Charles Wilson above or any of the other sightings of him or others of that name ...   for example :

 :) There was a Chas H WILSON at Yanko Creek offering £5 reward for recovery of stolen horse from Yarrahee, Yanko Creek.  https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/118308575  Goulburn Herald & Argyle Adv. 12 Sept 1857.   

There is a chap with the honorific ‘Esq.’ as a Steward at the Annual Races
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/59868419 Bells Life 27 March 1858

 :)    There is a chap up in the Inverell area who along with many others, suffered when the Mail was stolen at the Chain of Ponds in Oct 1861  https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/192531338 Armidale Express 9 Nov 1861

Or from City of Sydney's Archives https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/history/archives
 :) for Sands Directories 1858 Charles A WILSON, wine and spirit merchant of 145 Pitt Street Sydney
or from City of Sydney's Archives for Assessment books
 :) the Charles Wilson a tenant in 1858 off 1 Athlone Place, Sydney
 :) or the Charles Wilson a tenant 56 Brisbane Street, Sydney in 1861

Re NSW births to Charles and Sarah WILSON
 :) if the index registration number has 'V' it is not a civil registration, but it is an Early Church Record, so it is a baptism.  Not all babies were baptised, not all baptisms were for babies, and not all early church records were shared with the Registrar of the NSW Supreme Court.  It is those NSW Supreme Court records that make up the bulk of those 'V' records. 
 :) those Early Church Records can also have several entries for the one event... so for example if a baptism was performed in a parish some distance away from Sydney Town, the clergyman conducting that ceremony would record it in his own register, and was meant to transmit a summary record of that to his superiors who were then meant to forward the information to through to their denomination's head office.   It is not possible to determine how many of the church ceremonies of these baptisms, burials, marriages were a) recorded b) transmitted and c) were legible for the volunteers who prepared the indexes by inspecting and transcribing the longhand handwriting for the 'V' series in the 1930s, after decades of people thumbing through the originals, folding corners, significant ink bleeds, and general damage through usage of the records that were not actually bound up into volumes until around 1912 ...

WILSON of course can be mis-read as MILSON and other variations.

But, looking at the current iteration of the NSW BDM index, available online  for baptisms 1853-1856 for parents as Charles and Sarah WILSON
and considering Volume numbers :
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-registers-1787-1856

1853 Charles F and Sarah were parents for Charles S, Volume 39A (Church of England) line 571
1854 Charles and Sarah were parents to Rosanna, Volume 71 (Roman Catholic) line 1738 
1855 Charles and Sarah A were parents of Frances Volume 42B, (Church of England) line 3127
1856 Charles and Sarah were parents to Josephine S Volume 142A line 926.   

Quite possibly four different couples just in those four years, in NSW.  And we need to consider that NSW at that time included all of Queensland too.

JM






Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Tuesday 21 January 20 01:21 GMT (UK)
....
It looks like this is Sarah's d registration, from your information:
WILSON SARAH; 1375/1860; UNKNOWN; DIED SYDNEY; SYDNEY; Unavailable
I'd looked at it and wondered.....

In the last several years, the NSW BDM has commenced the option to provide their certificate as a pdf.  And so, whenever they have been requested to provide their document as a pdf, they have noted 'available' at the online index under their 'new' column headed PDF availability.  So all the entry 'Unavailable' means is that the document under registration number 1375/1860 has not yet been provided to anyone as a pdf.  If an order is received for it to be delivered as a pdf, then once the pdf has been made, it will become 'available' and that column heading will read 'Available'. 

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: matthewj64 on Tuesday 21 January 20 04:58 GMT (UK)
I've had a look through the Hobart baptisms to compare them to the registrations

Baptisms at St Joseph's RC Church
born 27 Jan 1846 Thomas
Charles Wilson and Sarah (Bond)
baptised 21 June

3 Aug 1847 Sarah Ann
Charles Wilson and Sarah (Bond)
bapt. 1 oct

4 Aug 1850 Charles
Charles Wilson and Sarah (Bond)
bapt. 15 Sept

Registered births
28 Jan 1846 Charles
Charles Wilson (labourer) and Sarah (Watson)
registered Feb 10
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD33-1-2-p609j2k

29 Aug 1847 Sarah Ann
Charles Wilson (fisherman) and Sarah (Bond)
reg. 8 Oct
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD33-1-3-p061j2k

9 Apr 1849 (female)
Charles Wilson (fisherman) and Sarah (Bond)
reg. 12 May
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD33-1-3-p182j2k

28 Aug 1850 (male)
Charles Wilson (boatman) and Sarah (Bond)
reg. 13 Sep
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD33-1-3-p299j2k
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Tuesday 21 January 20 06:58 GMT (UK)
Many thanks for the last few posts.
I have a lot more to explore.
a few questions now though:
Could the 1860 d cert and the V entry be both for the same person?
What's OP?
What do people think about the Thomas/ Charles baptism/ birth in 1846?


Where did you find the Hobart baptisms/ registrations?
This was where I found the Charles birth: https://librariestas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/tas/search/detailnonmodal/ent:$002f$002fARCHIVES_DIGITISED$002f0$002fARCHIVES_DIG_DIX:RGD33-1-2/one
and this is where I found the 1847 b of Sarah Ann: https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/search/results?qu=sarah&qu=bond&qu=wilson#
Am I in the right area?

I need to reread and digest it all a bit. Truly thanks so much.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: matthewj64 on Tuesday 21 January 20 07:34 GMT (UK)
Many thanks for the last few posts.
I have a lot more to explore.
a few questions now though:
Could the 1860 d cert and the V entry be both for the same person?
What's OP?
What do people think about the Thomas/ Charles baptism/ birth in 1846?


Where did you find the Hobart baptisms/ registrations?
This was where I found the Charles birth: https://librariestas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/tas/search/detailnonmodal/ent:$002f$002fARCHIVES_DIGITISED$002f0$002fARCHIVES_DIG_DIX:RGD33-1-2/one
and this is where I found the 1847 b of Sarah Ann: https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/search/results?qu=sarah&qu=bond&qu=wilson#
Am I in the right area?

I need to reread and digest it all a bit. Truly thanks so much.

Birth registrations are from the Names Index on the Tas libraries/archives site, same as where you found them
https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/

Baptisms are from microfilm at the Tas archives

OP means 'original poster' so in this case, you

I'm not yet sure about the Thomas/Charles 1846 birth, it points to being the same child, but a reason for the change to the surname 'Bond' would help

I don't know about the 1860 V entry, will leave that to others  :)
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Tuesday 21 January 20 20:47 GMT (UK)
Thanks for your answers and your visit to the Tasmanian Archives. They are a bit too far away for me.
I keep learning all the time.
I'll cogitate a bit more.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Tuesday 21 January 20 22:05 GMT (UK)
Re :
Those two entries on the NSW BDM online index for 1860.

The one with a 'V', the one pointing to an Early Church Record, does note the deceased was aged 37.

Many of the Camperdown Cemetery burials have been transcribed and are indexed  :) as mentioned in the OP.  Here is the link http://gutenberg.net.au/camperdownNSW/_home.html  It was the main Church of England burial ground in Sydney for much of the mid 1800s.  It was referred to as St Stephens cemetery for it was within the grounds of St Stephens.  Burials were not restricted just to Church of England members.

Here is a link that has background info about the cemetery. http://cemeterycuriosities.blogspot.com/2008/04/camperdown-cemetery.html

From the Camperdown Cemetery burials 
8747, BN08774 is for a Sarah WILSON, aged 37, 25 July 1860. 

usually you can drill down on a NSW BDM civil registration index entry to reliably determine the 'date of the event'.   But when I checked that option, the d.c. for Sarah WILSON #1375/1860 does not reflect just 25 July 1860, but every date in 1860, including 31 December 1860.  The date will of course be on the actual document.

It is of course possible that cert 1375/1860 has the names of her spouse, children, etc... but it does not seem to have any info about her parents (so likely nothing about her own birth place or nee name) ...  It is up to you of course, if you are considering ordering a transcript, ... if so, then I would seek out the civil registration for it will have the name of the cemetery, and it should also have cause of death, date buried, and name of spouse and children and the name/address of the informant.

JM



Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Tuesday 21 January 20 22:24 GMT (UK)
Re Sarah WILSON formerly Sarah WATSON,  on the image 146 for Charles born January 28th 1846, it has Sarah’s address as Argyle Street. 

Re Sarah WILSON formerly BOND on the image 27, for Sarah Ann born August 29th 1847, it has Sarah’s address as Old Wharf. 

I am wondering if the confusion is simply a reflection of the level of literacy for Sarah and possibly for Charles as well.    I am wondering if the couple had a document that showed Sarah WATSON was formerly under a BOND, and so when asked by officialdom ‘what were you formerly’   Charles or Sarah have answered ‘BOND’ … I am probably sidetracking you, sorry.

ADD ... I forgot to explain  ::)  ::)  google street maps shows me that Argyle Street still runs down all the way to Constitution Dock...

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: matthewj64 on Tuesday 21 January 20 23:19 GMT (UK)
To add to the confusion, Sarah Watson's convict indent says she can read and write, and she signs her name in the marriage register (original viewed); but then for the 1846 birth and the 'Bond' births, the mother signs 'her X mark'.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Wednesday 22 January 20 21:09 GMT (UK)
Hi again,
I love it when things are complicated! Thanks again.
a few more questions:
How did you drill down into the NSW records?
By civil registration do you mean the 1375 or the V? I'd picked the V because of the 37 years, but had wondered about the other. I'm not very optimistic, but might do it.
About the Argyle St./ Old Wharf thing, Charles's occupation changed then from labourer (or gardener at the marriage) to fisherman/ boatman. He was recorded as free. Maybe he could only get a job as a gardener at first. From FindMyPast's Hobart Town Gazette Tu Nov 5 (& 12 & 19) 1844 pp. 1404 - 1405 on the image (or 1405 - 1406 on the record) it has Charles free & Sarah from the Waverley in private service when they applied to marry. Maybe after they married he managed to switch jobs and addresses to what he really wanted (or they are both different people).
By the way also in those Gazette's it has her absconding in July 1844 (506, dressmaker and more description) and being apprehended in Dec 1844 (after their marriage).
I'd also wondered about that Bond idea, but it continued for baby after baby.
off to cogitate ....
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Wednesday 22 January 20 22:04 GMT (UK)
Hi,

Re NSW BDM ....

 :) if the reference has the letter V in it, then it is part of a Volume of the Early Church Records, covering from 1787 through to at least 1856, but sometimes into the early 1900s.

 :) Drill down on exact date of an event is an option available on the online indexes ...   Scroll down to Event Details, use the Date of Event From and Date of Event To option,  change the day and month as well as entering the year from and year to...  :)

Apart from newspapers at FindMyPast,  you can also access many newspapers, and loads of other great material for NO CHARGE via the National Library of Australia's TROVE website.  Here are several links for that option...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/search?adv=y
and the Resources Boards here at RChat
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/
Tasmania  https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369953.0
NSW https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0

NSW BDM history of the registry https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/about-us/history-of-registry.aspx

JM



Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: matthewj64 on Thursday 23 January 20 01:52 GMT (UK)
Have found and added the baptism of Jemima, that was entered in the register as double L 'Willson'

I've had a look through the Hobart baptisms to compare them to the registrations

Baptisms at St Joseph's RC Church
born 27 Jan 1846 Thomas
Charles Wilson and Sarah (Bond)
baptised 21 June
godparents - Thomas Dutton & Rosetta Williams

3 Aug 1847 Sarah Ann
Charles Wilson and Sarah (Bond)
bapt. 1 oct
godparents - Thomas Banesford & Bridget Turnbull

9 Apr 1849 Jemima
Charles Wilson and Sarah (Bond)
bapt. 11 July
godparents - Morris Fay & Mary Fay

4 Aug 1850 Charles
Charles Wilson and Sarah (Bond)
bapt. 15 Sept
godparents - John Lennon & Catherine Pollard


Registered births
28 Jan 1846 Charles
Charles Wilson (labourer) and Sarah (Watson)
registered Feb 10
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD33-1-2-p609j2k

29 Aug 1847 Sarah Ann
Charles Wilson (fisherman) and Sarah (Bond)
reg. 8 Oct
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD33-1-3-p061j2k

9 Apr 1849 (female)
Charles Wilson (fisherman) and Sarah (Bond)
reg. 12 May
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD33-1-3-p182j2k

28 Aug 1850 (male)
Charles Wilson (boatman) and Sarah (Bond)
reg. 13 Sep
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD33-1-3-p299j2k


Edit - added godparent info
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: wivenhoe on Thursday 23 January 20 04:11 GMT (UK)
Can you confirm please - you are researching the origins of this man -

QLD BDM death
1928/B/4616   Thomas WILSON
Died: 27/05/1928
Mother: Sarah Wilson
Father/parent: Charles Wilson

And you have seen this certificate?


Matthew -
The information about baptisms is very useful. Are you able to enhance this with details of godparents.

Catholic baptisms usually have godparents named, and they might be family members.

Tasmania Convict Records
Sarah WATSON # 506 convicted Dublin 9 Aug 1842, arrived Hobart "Waverley" (2)

CON 15 
Native Place:  Dublin
Relations - Apprenticeship-where last residing: 
                     3 b(rothers) Edward, William, Dennis       transported
                     Edwd  about 10 years ago
                     William           5 years ago
                     Dennis            3 years ago
                     s(isters)        Rose, Mary Ann and Catherine    at England.

Where Sarah WATSON is 19 years old you might think that her memory of Dennis is clearer then her memory of eg. Edward, which would make looking for Dennis WATSON, transported 1841 +/- 1 years a better option that  looking for Edward or William.

Assuming that they were transported to an Australian colony, you might expect to see Edward, William and Dennis on the 1842 Convict Muster. Were they born in Ireland....were they convicted in Ireland?

Dennis is a less common name and you might hope to locate him.  Are they WATSON or BOND?

What do you see on this death record for Sarah WILSON, died 1860, NSW?
Can you please list all the information.

When Sarah dies, 1860, there are several small children. If father Charles WILSON did not remarry  - who raised these children?

Thomas WILSON, died, 1928, has very informative death record. He must have passed information about his origins to his family. Mother Sarah, during her life time, must have given this information to her children.

Where are Edward, William and Dennis WATSON   (BOND?)  Are they in NSW?
Thomas WILSON dies, 1928, Brisbane, and the informant is able to name his father and mother.  That is impressive for a boy whose mother died when he was ~ 14 years old.


Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: matthewj64 on Thursday 23 January 20 06:06 GMT (UK)

Matthew -
The information about baptisms is very useful. Are you able to enhance this with details of godparents.

Catholic baptisms usually have godparents named, and they might be family members.

Done - added in red to my previous post

M  :)
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: Dundee on Thursday 23 January 20 06:08 GMT (UK)
Where Sarah WATSON is 19 years old you might think that her memory of Dennis is clearer then her memory of eg. Edward, which would make looking for Dennis WATSON, transported 1841 +/- 1 years a better option that  looking for Edward or William.

Good luck with that   ;D

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Thursday 23 January 20 06:13 GMT (UK)
Agree with Debra  :)

But ... NSW Archives does have a Convicts Index ... and WATSON as a surname is not nearly as popular as Wilson.   Fingers crossed Sarah WATSON's brothers went to Tasmania ... much better records available online without needing a subscription...

The headings for that index include Name, surname, Ship  Year (of arrival, although it does NOT actually say that),  Record type, Date (date refers to the Record type) and remarks.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/convicts/indexes

PS,  thanks M for adding those sponsors.   :)   

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Thursday 23 January 20 06:19 GMT (UK)
Re sponsors surnamed FAY

9 Apr 1849 Jemima
Charles Wilson and Sarah (Bond)
bapt. 11 July
godparents - Morris Fay & Mary Fay

Could it be FOY?

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: matthewj64 on Thursday 23 January 20 06:47 GMT (UK)
Re sponsors surnamed FAY

9 Apr 1849 Jemima
Charles Wilson and Sarah (Bond)
bapt. 11 July
godparents - Morris Fay & Mary Fay

Could it be FOY?

JM

Its hard to make out, but distinctly an 'a' for the middle letter, I think it is this marrying couple, Maurice Fay and Mary Whelan
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD37-1-5p147j2k

M
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Friday 24 January 20 21:34 GMT (UK)
Thanks for so many more leads and the extra baptisms and godparents, and the brothers of Sarah.
The person I am researching who led me into this is the Charles b 1850. I love that one of his godparents is John Lennon!
Thanks for the drilling down into the NSW records info. That's another thing I didn't know.
will have to followi some of these new leads
Thanks again.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: wivenhoe on Friday 24 January 20 23:57 GMT (UK)

BDM TAS marriage   St Josephs Hobart   18 Aug 1846
FAY Maurice                                          (arr. "Egyptian")
WHELAN Mary                                       (arr. "Hope")
Witnesses Edw RYAN   Js COLLYER

Catherine POLLARD #238  departed Dublin "Waverley" (2)

Online tree has baptism certificate (transcription)  NSW RC
Josephine Sarah WILSON  b. 24 Jul 1856  bapt. 4 Aug 1856
Parents:    Charles WILSON    Sarah  BOND
Abode:     Goulburn Street
Godparents George BURNS    Catherine QUIGLEY
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Saturday 25 January 20 02:13 GMT (UK)
....
Online tree has baptism certificate (transcription)  NSW RC
Josephine Sarah WILSON  b. 24 Jul 1856  bapt. 4 Aug 1856
Parents:    Charles WILSON    Sarah  BOND
Abode:     Goulburn Street
Godparents George BURNS    Catherine QUIGLEY

This baptism is registered as part of the Early Church Records with NSW BDM. 

If you look at NSW BDM online you will notice it is 1856, Volume 142A, line 926, WILSON Josephine S, Charles and Sarah and the pdf is readily available (so someone has recently sought the document - either one of the official transcribers or a direct order from a member of the general public etc).

If you try to 'drill down' on it you will discover the usual flaw in the software driving those Early Church Records... Any date in 1856 works.   the 'drill down' option is more reliable with it is used on official registrations,  ie not on anything with a 'V' in its registration number. 

But with Wivenhoe finding that transcription on an online tree ... Great Find, perhaps our OP can consider approaching that tree owner for sharing possibles... perhaps the tree owner may even consider joining RChat...  :D

JM 
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Saturday 25 January 20 02:34 GMT (UK)
From City of Sydney Archives,  Assessment Books.

1858
There was a chap, named as Charles WILSON, tenant at off 1 Athlone Place, in the Denison Ward.  The Owner or Landlord was William RUTLIDGE.  It was a House, with an annual value of £20 (the amount that the rates would be based on).   It was a Wood House (not of Brick or Stone or iron) and its roof was Shingled.  There was just the one floor, and two rooms. 

William RUTLIDGE occupied (and owned) 11 Athlone Place.  A Brick house, 2 floors, 5 rooms.   William Rutlidge also owners off 2 Athlone Place, and 15 and 17, and he was also the owner of 13 Athlone Place, where a James WILSON was the tenant… 

https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/history/archives

https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/house-and-building-histories/assessment-books

http://archivesinvestigator.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/

and of course,  City of Sydney has the free to view Sands Directories too…
https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory


WHY am I noticing Athlone Place … well … it is (to me) that Camperdown Cemetery (St Stephens) would be the logical cemetery for anyone dying who had that as their usual residence on a d.c. in that era.

 http://gransdenfamily.com/camperdown-cemetery-and-athlone-place/

That link gives some background for a search for a different female but it may give some further understanding to the dilemma in searching NSW records in the years immediately after Gold was discovered…  So many people rushed out of the urban districts, so many people arrived from overseas ports, ‘transients’  so many ‘new’ accents sharing info, and no formal ID process required for any transactions of any kind.   And even those who remained in Sydney, when they recorded any of their BDM events,  they S C R I B B L E D in long hand, and it took until the 1930s for any concerned attempt to actually transcribe and index those BDM records…

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: wivenhoe on Saturday 25 January 20 06:55 GMT (UK)

Where Sarah WATSON is 19 years old you might think that her memory of Dennis is clearer then her memory of eg. Edward, which would make looking for Dennis WATSON, transported 1841 +/- 1 years a better option that  looking for Edward or William.

Why do you dismiss the value of this suggestion?
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Monday 27 January 20 03:11 GMT (UK)
don't know why people said that
Thank you for finding that entry in the indents: https://librariestas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/tas/search/detailnonmodal/ent:$002f$002fARCHIVES_DIGITISED$002f0$002fARCHIVES_DIG_DIX:CON15-1-2/one
images 88 & 89
I would have had a bit of trouble reading it without you.
I haven't had success with those names and dates yet as convicts for the brothers. How did you know the date of the entry? I take it you used the date of the voyage of the Waverley 15 Dec 1842 from image 51? I wonder how & why the sisters went to England. I did find a baptism of a possible candidate for her brother Edward:
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633804#page/69/mode/1up
nli Catholic Parish Registers at the NLI:
Kingstown/ Microfilm 09071/ 01:
Register Information: Archdiocese of Dublin/ County of Dublin; 92 images; Baptisms 04 Dec. 1768 to 30 Dec. 1819; Marriages Dec. 1793 to Nov. 1819 Index and register Baptisms Nov. 1817 - Oct. 1819 missing
Filter: Baptisms 1807 May: Page 69 image e.g.
May 1807
13 Edward of James & Cathy? Watson; sps, Pat Doyle & Mary Redmond - - - Grange

About Tasmania and Argyle St & Old Wharf, are they essentially the same street?

I've been enjoying drilling down in the NSW records. I also found George in b 1852 (if they didn't come on the Africa) and Henrietta (Herietta in her marriage) b in 1858 as possible children of Charles and Sarah.
The only date that I found something useful in trove for was for the death of Sarah Ann Wilson, who seems to have married a C. J. Wilson.
WILSON SARAH; 9287/1913; CHARLES; SARAH; GOULBURN; Unavailable (refines to 11/06/1867 - 12/06/1867) (12 - 13 works & 10 - 11 doesn’t, so must be 12/06/1913) (see Tv 98853488 & 98853517)
Those trove entries (Goulburn Evening Penny Post 12 Jun 1913 pp. 2 & 3) didn't help much with her parents, but were interesting, giving her age (63y) and place of death.

I've decided to order the civil registration of Sarah's death. I'll also keep going through all your leads.
I don't know if it will help but thanks so much again to all.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: matthewj64 on Monday 27 January 20 05:47 GMT (UK)
About Tasmania and Argyle St & Old Wharf, are they essentially the same street?

No they are not, but the relevant thing is that when his occupation changes to a maritime one, he moves to the harbour area. I've seen the same with other Hobart folk.

M
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Monday 27 January 20 07:22 GMT (UK)
Thanks (was just responding to this "ADD ... I forgot to explain  ::)  ::)  google street maps shows me that Argyle Street still runs down all the way to Constitution Dock...")
still plodding along slowly
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Tuesday 04 February 20 07:50 GMT (UK)
Hi,
got the certificate
It gets the prize for the least amount of information on a certificate!
The latest investigation topic is Charles Wilson on the Somersetshire.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Tuesday 04 February 20 08:00 GMT (UK)
Hi,
got the certificate
It gets the prize for the least amount of information on a certificate!
The latest investigation topic is Charles Wilson on the Somersetshire.

And the suspension is thicker than a brick wall .....  who was the informant?  What cemetery?  What else was recorded on the certificate...  :-X

(from reply # 30)  Sarah's death cert 1860.

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Tuesday 04 February 20 20:01 GMT (UK)
It has month and place of death, her name, her sex, certified by the undertaker and someone else that I can't read, date of registration, date and place of burial, and witnesses that I can't read well. Is it ok to write them on here?
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Tuesday 04 February 20 20:35 GMT (UK)
Yes,  of course it is ok.  ;)  :D We are not allowed to identify living people, or people who may be living.  It is impossible that anyone named in an 1860 death would still be alive. 

You can even take an electronic snip of part of the section where the handwriting is difficult to read and attach the snip, sharing it with us all so we can help to read the handwriting.

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Tuesday 04 February 20 21:49 GMT (UK)
I thought there could be some sort of copyright problem.
Date and place of death is July 1860, Strawberry Hill (like that name).
Name is Sarah Wilson (no occupation); sex is female (no age); nothing re cause; nothing re father or mother; certified by maybe R. Hanslow maybe undertaker & underneath that George someone (an outside chance could be Bond but more probably ?red); registration with signature 21st August 1860 Sydney; burial 27 Jul 1860 Camperdown Cemetery with name of undertaker R. Hanslow?; in the minister and witnesses it has Thos. Hanslow? and Jas? Clark (son of Josephine by her 1st husband?); nothing re how long in colonies; nothing re place of marriage age & to whom; nothing re children.
I can't attach a snippet right now because I have to sort out a little issue with my scanner.
By the way I found a few trees on world connect: 146057, 178314, 178316 & 211087.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Tuesday 04 February 20 22:37 GMT (UK)
Richard Hanslow was an undertaker in that era  :D ... plenty of mentions in newspapers.

You do not infringe anyone's copyright when you transcribe.  Copy and paste is not transcribing, it is plagarism and it can infringe someone's copyright. It is a NO NO  to c/p.  ;D

 You need to avoid infringing NSW BDM's claim of copyright of/over their form.  So you take a snip of a section of the image because, as a researcher, you follow the usual practice .. I.e.  you claim fair use for research to decipher the long hand scribble by any  pro bono transcribers.   ;D at RChat.

All good.

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Tuesday 04 February 20 22:50 GMT (UK)
Thanks. That's a relief.
will get scanner organised soon
might also see what I can see about Strawberry Hill
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: judb on Wednesday 05 February 20 00:06 GMT (UK)
Can't help with your ancestors but I think JM is referring to the 'snipping tool' which allows copying of a small amount of text/picture from a document - well, it works in "Word' and I haven't a clue if it works in other programs as I just use what I know!  But even I managed to download it and use it   ;D ;D ;D  I'm sure Google or Youtube will tell you how to find and access it.
Saves faffing with a scanner.

Judith
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: wivenhoe on Wednesday 05 February 20 01:57 GMT (UK)

At reply #18 -

4 Aug 1850 Charles
Charles Wilson and Sarah (Bond)
bapt. 15 Sept
godparents - John Lennon & Catherine Pollard

Catherine POLLARD arr. "Waverley" (2)  15 Sec 1842  tried Carlow  5 Apr 1842.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Wednesday 05 February 20 02:11 GMT (UK)

At reply #18 -

4 Aug 1850 Charles
Charles Wilson and Sarah (Bond)
bapt. 15 Sept
godparents - John Lennon & Catherine Pollard

Catherine POLLARD arr. "Waverley" (2)  15 Sec 1842  tried Carlow  5 Apr 1842.

Well found.  That is the most significant   find on this thread.  Wivenhoe rules.

PS

Thanks Judith too, yes snipping tool.

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Wednesday 05 February 20 04:33 GMT (UK)
Wow! What can I say? How good are you!
It's almost totally certain now that they are 2 people not 3 or 4.
This is from the informant section. I didn't use the snipping tool. I saved a copy of my document and cropped it in XnView. Is it ok? George looks a bit like Stied now.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: Dundee on Wednesday 05 February 20 04:47 GMT (UK)
It just says George Street, which was Richard HANSLOW's business address.

Richard himself had a bit of a grim death.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8802031

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Wednesday 05 February 20 06:01 GMT (UK)
Yes. Oooooh! I can see it now.
What a horrible way to die.
Thanks all so much.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: wivenhoe on Thursday 06 February 20 08:37 GMT (UK)


Can you remind me please, and by way of summary, what children do you claim for Charles WILSON and Sarah WATSON / BOND -


In Tasmania ? -

28 Jan 1846 Thomas parents Charles Wilson (labourer) and Sarah (Watson)

29 Aug 1847 Sarah Ann parents Charles Wilson (fisherman) and Sarah (Bond)

9 Apr 1849 (female) parents Charles Wilson (fisherman) and Sarah (Bond)

28 Aug 1850 Charles parents Charles Wilson (boatman) and Sarah (Bond)


Births in NSW are...?

If death Sarah WILSON, died 1860, gives no clue to the origins of this woman, this might be worth following -

Empire 30 Jul 1861
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/60483721?
...Sarah WILSON stated: I am a widow and reside at Penrith, and am a dressmaker......

Sarah WATSON arrived "Waverley" (2)  CON19/1/2 record  Sarah WATSON   dressmaker.

It would be useful to follow the lives of her children.....ie marriages.

What do you have for marriage of Thomas WILSON, died 1928, QLD?
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Thursday 06 February 20 21:02 GMT (UK)
The plot thickens!
Thanks for so much time you've spent on this.
I can't answer right now, but will do as soon as I can.
Just quickly though, Thomas's headstone in billion graves https://billiongraves.com/grave/Thomas-Wilson/20955594

has Catherine (Kathleen) Wilson (Molloy) - 3 Sep 1916 as one of the relationships on the headstone.

Find a grave https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/184955015/catherine-elizabeth-wilson

has her as Catherine Elizabeth "Kate" Malloy Wilson.

Family search tree has him marrying her 8 Jan 1875 in Forbes, but I don't think I've found a marriage in NSW yet.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: matthewj64 on Thursday 06 February 20 22:09 GMT (UK)
Death of Thomas Wilson

1928 'DIED IN HOSPITAL WITH BROKEN NECK.', Daily Standard (Brisbane, Qld. : 1912 - 1936), 30 May, p. 2. (3 p.m. EDITION), viewed 07 Feb 2020, http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article178949483
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: matthewj64 on Thursday 06 February 20 22:16 GMT (UK)
Funeral notice for Kathleen Wilson

1916 'Family Notices', The Brisbane Courier (Qld. : 1864 - 1933), 4 September, p. 6. , viewed 07 Feb 2020, http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article20134882
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Thursday 06 February 20 22:18 GMT (UK)
Well found M.  :)

So is it logical to consider that the informant on the 1928 d.c. may have been relying on info provided by Thomas as recorded on Thomas' own marriage?

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Thursday 06 February 20 22:42 GMT (UK)
I thought there could be some sort of copyright problem.


Date and place of death is July 1860, Strawberry Hill (like that name).
Name is Sarah Wilson (no occupation); sex is female (no age);

nothing re cause;

nothing re father or mother;

certified by maybe R. Hanslow maybe undertaker & underneath that George someone (an outside chance could be Bond but more probably ?red);

registration with signature 21st August 1860 Sydney; burial 27 Jul 1860 Camperdown Cemetery with name of undertaker R. Hanslow?;

in the minister and witnesses it has Thos. Hanslow? and Jas? Clark (son of Josephine by her 1st husband?);

nothing re how long in colonies;

nothing re place of marriage age & to whom; nothing re children.

I can't attach a snippet right now because I have to sort out a little issue with my scanner.
By the way I found a few trees on world connect: 146057, 178314, 178316 & 211087.
Thanks.

Does that document give you the date of death, not just July 1860,  and NO cause of death ... or does it leave you with the impression that she was no longer involved in the day to day care of her younger children...   

Unusual for the Funeral director to also be the informant.... Jas Clark  mentioned, but does it say who he was, ... or is he employee of funeral director?  Logically if son in law of deceased HE should be informant....  ::) or his wife... she was daughter of deceased ...  :-X  ADD ... see my later post ... Josephine was only four years of age in 1860, the  Jas Clark as a witness to the burial simply could NOT be her son.  :)

in 1860 it was the responsibility of the head of the household (landlord, boarding house, publican) to report sudden death to police, who then followed up with police magistrate to decide if murder investigation or straight to coroner or if medico can decide cause of death... but police magistrate could release body on a burial order.   There is then a time delay between burial date and date of funeral director completing paperwork to register the death ... I.e. cannot complete formal process until cause if death resolved  ... 

Many rural NSW sudden/suspicious deaths in that era have not been found registered, but this is a Sydney CBD death,  so the Funeral director has striven to follow the rules... but what about her children.... It may well be that this 1860 death is for someone who has NO connection to our OPs Thomas .

Also,  need to remember to look further into those brothers who were transported.   :)


JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Thursday 06 February 20 23:06 GMT (UK)
I can't tell you any more about the document. That is all it had. The age and the Camperdown Cemetery with Rosina (and a Charles) are the main connections. (see below re Rosina d)
Here is summary:
Births
In Tasmania
b 28 Jan 1846 Charles parents Charles Wilson (labourer) and Sarah (Watson) (Thomas from bp)

b 29 Aug 1847 Sarah Ann parents Charles Wilson (fisherman) and Sarah (Bond)

b 9 Apr 1849 (female) parents Charles Wilson (fisherman) and Sarah (Bond) (Jemima from bp)

b 28 Aug 1850 Charles parents Charles Wilson (boatman) and Sarah (Bond)

In New South Wales
These births look likely:
(using https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-registers-1787-1856

re denominations)
WILSON GEORGE; 1523/1852 V18521523 70; CHARLES; SARAH; -; Unavailable (R. C.)

WILSON ROSANNA; 1738/1854 V18541738 71; CHARLES; SARAH; -; Unavailable (R. C.)

WILSON JOSEPHINE S; 926/1856 V1856926 142A; CHARLES; SARAH; -; Unavailable

WILSON HENRIETTA; 12953/1858; CHARLES; SARAH; WELLINGTON; Readily available (refines to 21/04/1858 - 22/04/1858) (20 - 21 works & 22 - 23 doesn’t, so must be 21/04/1858

These look unlikely as C. of E. (& wouldn’t name another Charles when the 1850 one still alive):
WILSON CHARLES S; 571/1853 V1853571 39A; CHARLES F; SARAH; -; Unavailable (C. of E.)
WILSON FRANCES V; 3127/1855 V18553127 42B; CHARLES; SARAH A; -; Unavailable (C. of E.)

Marriages or Deaths
From there,
The people b Tasmania:
Thomas m Catherine/ Kathleen/ Kate etc. Malloy/ Molloy ?1875

Sarah Ann m 4914/1878; WILSON; CHARLES JAMES; WILSON; SARAH A; TENTERFIELD; Readily Available (refines to 25/12/1878 - 26/12/1878) (26 - 27 works & 24 - 25 doesn’t, so must be 26/12/1878)

Jemima m 2929/1869; CASTLEDINE; THOMAS; WILSON; JEMIMA; MURRURUNDI; Readily Available (refines to 19/08/1869 - 20/08/1869) (20 - 21 works & 18 - 19 doesn’t, so must be 20/08/1869)

Charles m 2425/1878; WILSON; CHARLES; SULLIVAN; MARY A; BATHURST; Unavailable (refines to 18/12/1878 - 19/12/1878) (19 - 20 works & 17 - 18 doesn’t, so must be 19/12/1878)

The likely people b New South Wales:
George m 2520/1877; WILSON; GEORGE H; JOHNSON; MARIA JANE; CARCOAR; Readily Available (refines to 11/03/1877 - 12/03/1877) (12 - 13 works & 10 - 11 doesn’t, so must be 12/03/1877)

Rosanna d ? (probably not the C. of E. one)
WILSON ROSANNA; 777/1854 V1854777 143; INFANT; -; -; Unavailable
WILSON ROSINA; 706/1854 V1854706 41A; INFANT; -; -; Unavailable (C. of E.)
WILSON ROSANNA; 2611/1854 V18542611 119; INFANT; -; -; Unavailable (R. C.)
http://gutenberg.net.au/camperdownNSW/_namelist-alphabetical.html
8339; BN08362; Wilson; Charles; 2 Apr 1860; 7w; -; -; -; -; -; -
8747; BN08774; Wilson; Sarah; 25 Jul 1860; 37; -; -; -; -; -; -
3648; BN03655; Wilson; Rosina; 3 Jul 1854; 3m; -; -; -; -; -; -
(This d record isn’t a help: WILSON CHARLES; 8380/1860 186008380 122; -; DIED SYDNEY; -; Unavailable (see ref above re Vol 122))

Josephine
m1 2320/1875; CLARK; HENRY; WILSON; JOSEPHINE; COONABARABRAN; Readily Available (refines to 07/03/1875 - 08/03/1875) (08 - 09 works & 06 - 07 doesn’t, so must be 08/03/1875)
m2 7452/1896; MACDONALD; FRANCIS J; CLARK; JOSEPHINE; GUNNEDAH; Readily Available (refines to 30/11/1896 - 01/12/1896) (01/12 - 02/12 works & 29/11 - 30/11 doesn’t, so must be 01/12/1896)
7452/1896; MACDONALD; FRANCIS J; CLARK; JOSEPHINE; GUNNEDAH; Unavailable (refines to 30/11/1896 - 01/12/1896) (01/12 - 02/12 works & 29/11 - 30/11 doesn’t, so must be 01/12/1896)

Henrietta m 4841/1879; JONES; WILLIAM; WILSON; HERIETTA; TAMWORTH; Unavailable (refines to 08/07/1879 to 09/07/1879) (09 - 10 works & 07 - 08 doesn’t, so 09/07/1879)
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Friday 07 February 20 00:05 GMT (UK)
Do you have Thomas' marriage cert?  If so, what date, and where, and denomination, plus what info is recorded there that he provided about himself and his parent/s...   :)  :)

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Friday 07 February 20 00:22 GMT (UK)
Also,  may I mention that Jas CLARK as per the 1860 d.c. could not be a son of Josephine WILSON.  Josephine married in 1875, and likely she would have been only FOUR years of age in 1860.

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Friday 07 February 20 01:06 GMT (UK)
Just to indicate how popular the surname of WILSON was during 19th and into 20th Century in NSW … here's a married couple Kate and Thomas WILSON, with descendants ...  :) 

17 November 1915 at Greenwell Point NSW A Catherine WILSON died.  Her husband had died there in December 1904.   He was a chap by the name of Thomas WILSON, aged about 60, so born about same time as Thomas, a son of our OP’s Charles and Sarah WILSON…   Greenwell Point’s electoral roll for 1902 shows many of the men with occupations such as fisherman, mate of dredge, seaman, oysterman, boatman … NONE were named Thomas WILSON.  It was not compulsory to enrol.   

See the newspaper cuttings of several IMs for names of children and grandchildren for the couple here  https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14723758 SMH 12 Dec 1905 and
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15692407  SMH 17 Nov 1916.


NSW BDM ONLINE INDEX
1904 Thomas A WILSON, parents given names NOT recorded, died aged 60 years, registered Nowra district, #14297
1915 Catherine WILSON, parents as John and Mary, registered Nowra district #17067

Also
Mrs S WILSON, dressmaker was at 328 Castlereagh St, SYDNEY as per Sands 1861 Directory.   That same directory lists THREE chaps in Sydney CBD, plus ONE at Balmain and ONE at Manly with the name Thomas WILSON. 

JM


Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Tuesday 11 February 20 06:58 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the extras.
sorry about the son of Josephine idea (was a bit exasperated at the time)
We know the parents of the children born/ bp in Tasmania & of Josephine.
Australia b & bp on family search and find my past has 2 more born to those parents: George & Rosanna. It's only Henrietta that's uncertain.
Also, young Charles's m has the same parents listed on Australia marriages on family search & FindMyPast.
I haven't found any more yet re Henrietta's b or anyone else's marriage.
About Sarah's literacy, I looked again at the marriage of Charles Wilson & Sarah Watson. https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/search/results?qu=wilson&qf=NI_INDEX%09Record+type%09Marriages%09Marriages&qf=PUBDATE%09Year%091816-1856%091816-1856&rw=156&st=PA&isd=true

It seems weird because to me it all looks to be written by the one person.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 February 20 07:19 GMT (UK)
Hi

Nothing weird ... it is not unusual at all. Yes all in the one hand.  That image is not the original clergy register. 

 It shows that Charles made his mark, and, by default, we learn that  Sarah has signed.

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 February 20 08:31 GMT (UK)
.....
Australia b & bp on family search and find my past has 2 more born to those parents: George & Rosanna. It's only Henrietta that's uncertain.
Also, young Charles's m has the same parents listed on Australia marriages on family search & FindMyPast.....

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTDR-GFH : 28 January 2020
George, baptised NSW, 17 May 1853, parents as Charles WILSON and Sarah BOND. And At NSW BDM online index this is Volume 70, line 1523 (of 1852 – so born 1852, baptised 1853).   Volume 70 is Roman Catholic Baptisms
Find My Past’s Database has some FLAWED infor but also it has a possible ‘new’ fact
They have the Denomination as Roman Catholic for George
Registration District as Sofala  (JM mentions this later in this post)
Father’s first name as Charles
Mother’s first name as Sarah (JM notes it does NOT give her maiden name)
Registration number
Volume reference V18521523 70
Record set New South Wales Births
Sub Category Civil Births  (JM notes this is flawed info)



https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTD6-16X : 28 January 2020
Rosanna, baptised St James,  Sydney NSW 1 Sept 1854, parents as Charles WILSON and Sarah BOND.   
At NSW BDM online index this is Volume 71, line 1738 (of 1854). Volume 71 is Roman Catholic Baptisms.
Find My Past’s Database has for this baptism is FLAWED they have this as
Denomination Church of England,
Registration district, Sydney, St Phillips
Father’s first name Charles
Mother’s first name Sarah
Registration number
Volume Reference V18541738 71
and parents as Charles and Sarah
Record Set New South Wales Births
Sub Category Civil Births
 
Civil registration did NOT commence in NSW until 1856.

Flaws creep in when two or more existing indexes are merged with each other and the technocrat setting up the merge ‘guesses’ that two or more ‘columns’ with similar looking data can be ‘merged’ together.   FindMyPast is not the only organisation making a mishmash of the NSW BDM online indexes … NSW BDM makes a fine mish mash of their own indexes ‘all by themselves’  … So too Ancestry, and so too the CDs from earlier decades ….

But somewhere along the line there is something on the actual parish record of the baptism of George in 1853 that mentions ‘Sofala’ …. And that causes me to say ‘GOLD FIELDS’ …  The actual record held by NSW BDM should also give names of sponsors as Volume 70 is definitely Roman Catholic, and the usual ‘abode’ for Charles and hopefully his occupation.   It MAY give Sarah’s maiden name.  https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-registers-1787-1856   I will also mention that the LDS seem to be actively transcribing and indexing some registers at the moment, or perhaps completed and are currently uploading.   I have included the date in the live link for the family search index entry for George and same for Rosanna.   I am absolutely certain that Volume 71 is NOT Church of England.  I am absolutely certain that both the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England Church continue to have parishes in their respective Diocese’ of Sydney that are named St James.   

JM   I will look for young Charles marriage later.  :)
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Tuesday 11 February 20 20:36 GMT (UK)
Thanks.
This is the find my past entry I found for George:https://www.findmypast.com.au/transcript?id=R_546611262

and this one for Rosanna:https://www.findmypast.com.au/transcript?id=R_546616539

In the Rosanna one it has Victoria, but residing NSW. Both have Bond for mother's surname.
Are these different from yours?
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 February 20 21:55 GMT (UK)
Thanks.
This is the find my past entry I found for George:https://www.findmypast.com.au/transcript?id=R_546611262

and this one for Rosanna:https://www.findmypast.com.au/transcript?id=R_546616539

In the Rosanna one it has Victoria, but residing NSW. Both have Bond for mother's surname.
Are these different from yours?
   

I have already posted my own transcriptions of the info i found at FindMyPast.  I have just rechecked, NO mention of Victoria on the transcription that FindMyPast has uploaded that I offered a transcription on.    :D  But ...

I have found ANOTHER transcription at FindMyPast.  It too is FLAWED.  It has NO reference number within their transcription, but it does have Victoria mentioned as a state...  ummm.... in 1854 Victoria was a Colony.  Anyway it has NOT provided any reference number to lead anyone back to the actual primary source to check the accuracy of their transcription, but it states 'This collection includes records from 1792 to 1981. It is not necessarily intended to index any specific set of records and is not complete for any particular place or region.'
 

You need to consider seeking out the actual document/s that these indexes have relied on. 

So for example some of the FindMyPast indexes do include the Volume Reference no. for 'death' in 1854 of an infant named Rosanna WILSON - or perhaps for TWO infants of that name....  Although I am fairly confident that it is for just one burial, and that one or both references are basically transmitted summaries provided to the Diocese Head Office.  Again I mention that the civil registration of 'deaths' in NSW does not commence until civil registration commenced in 1856. 
 
 :) I am confident that the reference no. V1854777143 is for a BURIAL record and that the reference no. FindMyPast is using is actually a NSW BDM reference no. where the V refers to a NSW BDM volume, and 143 is that volume, and 1854 is the year of burial and 777 is the likely line number.   
I can also see that FindMyPast has a further 'death'   'apparently' for another infant, also named as Rosanna WILSON also in 1854, and with the Volume reference as V18542622119.  So I am confident it too is for a burial and is found in Volume 119 of the NSW BDM set of Early Church Records and it would be line 2622 of that volume.  And I expect that the entry in Volume 119 is likely to be a transmitted record, sent through the then usual process from clergy to their Diocese head office ... and so recorded at local parish register and again at Diocese level 

So basically it is quite possible that when FindMyPast put together their database of their collection that someone has presumed that the V in the reference number is V for Victoria, if so, they have been mistaken.  It is V for Volume, but I can assure you there are people gainfully employed at NSW BDM call centres who have been allowed to 'guess' that the V is V for Vital.  ::)  ::)  ::) and so all sorts of factoidal twaddles and urban myths have made a real mishmash of the quest to seek out actual records. 

JM  I have edited this to correct some grammar etc.  NSW AEDST 9.00 a.m.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 February 20 22:13 GMT (UK)
Do you have Thomas' marriage cert?  If so, what date, and where, and denomination, plus what info is recorded there that he provided about himself and his parent/s...   :)  :)

JM

 :D
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Tuesday 11 February 20 23:36 GMT (UK)
think my head is spinning!
don't have Thomas's certificate
Do you mean buy those documents?
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 February 20 00:01 GMT (UK)
No,  I am not suggesting you buy any certificates.   

I do think that before you go back to generations earlier than Thomas who died in 1928, that you need to give serious consideration to seeking out his marriage certificate as it should be a document that you can rely on, as HE would have provided information about himself and about his parents, including his mum's nee name.    I actually cannot fathom how you have actually found who his parents actually were without actually checking his marriage certificate.  Once you have that information you may well find that a great deal of the elusive confusions  line up and  the dots start to join and make good sense.

Yes,  I can see a SUBMITTED tree with Catherine MOLLOY as his spouse.  That tree has NOT provided even a guesstimate date or location for their marriage for their online tree.    Plenty of threads here at RChat advise against relying on submitted trees.

I am presuming that Thomas is already known as your ancestor ...  :) and you are investigating his parents and are finding there's quite a variety of possible sets of parents for him.   

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Wednesday 12 February 20 00:06 GMT (UK)
Thanks, but it's not Thomas I'm connected to. It's Charles b 1850. (& that's just through step connections)
How can I look at the original documents? (I'm not in NSW).
By the way, these were the 3 NSW BDM "death" indexes for Rosannna:
WILSON ROSANNA; 777/1854 V1854777 143; INFANT; -; -; Unavailable
WILSON ROSINA; 706/1854 V1854706 41A; INFANT; -; -; Unavailable (C. of E.)
WILSON ROSANNA; 2611/1854 V18542611 119; INFANT; -; -; Unavailable (R. C.)
Are you adding another? (same as the third one but 22 instead of 11)

have to go away for a while
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 February 20 00:09 GMT (UK)
So what information is on Charles b 1850's marriage certificate about his parents?

ADD, and of course about himself  :D  who were the witnesses ...

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 February 20 00:14 GMT (UK)
It is NOT possible to look at the original documents for NSW BDM Early Church Records.  They are fragile and are NOT made available.  They were filmed back decades ago. 

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-registers-1787-1856

Thanks, but it's not Thomas I'm connected to. It's Charles b 1850. (& that's just through step connections)
How can I look at the original documents? (I'm not in NSW).
By the way, these were the 3 NSW BDM "death" indexes for Rosannna:
WILSON ROSANNA; 777/1854 V1854777 143; INFANT; -; -; Unavailable
WILSON ROSINA; 706/1854 V1854706 41A; INFANT; -; -; Unavailable (C. of E.)
WILSON ROSANNA; 2611/1854 V18542611 119; INFANT; -; -; Unavailable (R. C.)
Are you adding another? (same as the third one but 22 instead of 11)

have to go away for a while

ADD
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/about-us/history-of-registry.aspx

From 1788 to 1856 the only birth, death or marriage records kept in NSW were the registers maintained by the established churches. The Registry holds transcriptions of these early church records. Any surviving original registers are located in the NSW Archives.


JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 February 20 00:32 GMT (UK)
 :)

Well, here's a reason to check out submitted trees and wonder whether they have copy pasted from each other and/or relied on summary info found on mishmash indexes... 

You see, there's quite a number of trees that have 'your' Charles born 1850 etc etc etc and then in 1867 he died in Sydney, parents as Charles and Sarah.    Some of them note the NSW BDM reference no. for his death as 1529/1867.     

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: wivenhoe on Wednesday 12 February 20 03:10 GMT (UK)

How are you connected to Charles WILSON, b 1850, died 1867, NSW, who, presumably, did not marry, or have  children?
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Wednesday 12 February 20 03:34 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the register information.
I don't think Charles b 1850 did die then. I came to him through his m to Mary, who is my connection via several people (certainly not direct). The marriage mentioned his parents, so I've somehow found his b in Tasmania with those same parents, Charles WILSON and Sarah BOND. I saw the strange thing about the WATSON/ BOND thing and couldn't bear to put any of it into a tree without knowing more. I don't like putting people in if I think something doesn't seem right. It means I go very slowly, but that's ok. I like to meander through.
You are all amazing! You have spent so much time on this! Please let me know if there's something I can do in return. I've learnt so much through this thread.
I wanted to have his parents in the tree (extra fascination re Sarah as convict), and possibly his siblings and their spouses. I didn't want to put in his siblings' children, as they are too recent for me. I don't like putting people in who were b after 1871 at the moment, though this will change as time goes on. I couldn't put his parents in without knowing whether they were 2, 3 or 4 people.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 February 20 04:07 GMT (UK)
Please type up all the info Charles marriage,   :)

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Wednesday 12 February 20 06:16 GMT (UK)
I don't have the certificate.
TIME TO GET IT DO YOU THINK?
This is all at the moment:
Charles m 2425/1878; WILSON; CHARLES; SULLIVAN; MARY A; BATHURST; Unavailable (refines to 18/12/1878 - 19/12/1878) (19 - 20 works & 17 - 18 doesn’t, so must be 19/12/1878)
https://www.findmypast.com.au/transcript?id=R_546976009
Find My Past: Record Transcription: Australia, Marriages, 1788 - 1935:
First name(s): Charles; Last name: Wilson; Birth year: -; Residence: Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia; Marriage year: 1878; Marriage date: 19 Dec 1878; Spouse’s first name(s): Mary Ann; Spouse’s last name: Sullivan; Marriage place:  Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia; Town: -; County: -; State: New South Wales; County: Australia; Groom’s marital status: Single; Groom’s birth place:  .... .....; Groom’s father’s first name(s): Charles; Groom’s father’s last name: Wilson; Groom’s mother’s first name(s): Sarah; Groom’s mother’s last name: Bond; Bride’s marital status: Single; Bride’s birth place:  .... ; Bride’s father’s first name(s): Danil; Bride’s father’s last name: Sullivan; Bride’s mother’s first name(s): Ann; Bride’s mother’s last name: Sha.; Record set: Australia, Marriages, 1788 - 1935; Category: Life Events (BDMs): Subcategory: Civil Marriage & Divorce; Collections from: Australasia
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCY-1M1
Family search: Charles Wilson, “Australia Marriages, 1810-1980” image available at family history centres
Name: Charles Wilson; Birthplace: … …; Spouse’s Name: May Ann Sullivan; Spouse’s Birthplace: …; Event Date: 19 Dec 1878; Event Place: Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia; Father’s Name: Charles Wilson; Mother’s Name: Sarah Bond; Spouse’s Father’s Name: Danil Sullivan; Mother’s Name: Ann Sha…; Marital Status: Single; Spouse’s Marital Status: Single; Record Collection: Australia Marriages, 1810-1980; Document Information: Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M00383-5; System Origin: Australia; GS Film number: 992679; Reference ID: vol5
Citing this Record: "Australia Marriages, 1810-1980," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCY-1M1 : 10 February 2018), Charles Wilson and May Ann Sullivan, 19 Dec 1878; citing Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia, reference vol5; FHL microfilm 992,679.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 February 20 11:01 GMT (UK)
NSW Electoral Roll 1878 BATHURST
Charles WILSON, household, Hope Street
Daniel SULLIVAN, residence, William Street

Grevilles 1875 Post Office Directory BATHURST
No listing for any by the name of Charles WILSON
No listing for any by the name of Daniel SULLIVAN

NSW Electoral Roll 1870 BATHURST
No listing for any by the name of Charles WILSON
No listing for any by the name of Daniel SULLIVAN

The above info MAY BE relevant, and then again it MAY BE NOTHING to do with your couple.

I am actually unable to find any info in your reply #71 that gives you any reason to consider that that Charles was born in Tasmania to Charles and Sarah WILSON.   

I will stress that the NSW BDM marriage record may NOT have all the answers, but there’s information on the NSW BDM record that should help you get to the actual original parish register.   

If this were my family I would NOT be purchasing the NSW BDM marriage certificate, BUT I would be purchasing the OFFICIAL transcription of the NSW BDM marriage certificate.   Official transcriptions are reliable, are licenced by NSW BDM and are transcribed by experienced people who are familiar with the handwriting of the clergy who submitted summary information to the NSW BDM in 1878.   

This was in the era when NSW BDM was mid way through 40 years of disputes with the Churches over how much/how little info the NSW civil admin actually needed to know about the couples marrying in NSW.  The clergy were withholding details that they collected from the brides and grooms, and only providing ‘summaries’ of the marriages to the civil registration processes.    BUT the NSW BDM’s records will give you the details of the clergy, denomination, witnesses, etc.   The elusive blanks  (on civil official registrations) are usually found/resolved on the actual parish register, which is why you only need an official transcription from NSW BDM.  With that official transcription you will learn which denomination.  With that knowledge you then set about finding out which organisation has the current custody of the parish register. 

The headings on NSW BDM marriage certificates (and on official transcriptions) include the following that are NOT covered in the indexes that your reply # 71 is likely drawn from
 :) the then AGES of the bride and the groom,  and if either were not yet 21, the details of who gave consent on their behalf,  (name and relationship)
 :) Where born,  (town and colony, or if overseas, sometimes just the country)
 :) their marital status  (bachelor, widower, divorcee petitioner, spinster, widow, divorcee etc) ( Single is a NEW term introduced quite recently, it is NOT on the actual record, it is a politically correct term, and does not mean 'never married' ... Divorce came to NSW in 1873)
 :) their usual residential addresses,
 :) their occupations,
 :) their father’s occupations,
 :) the names of the witnesses (occasionally their home addresses even)
 :) the denomination 
 :) where the ceremony was held ... (manse/home/church building etc)
 :) the clergyman’s name

See this (quite lengthy) thread :   https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0

NSW BDM info on OFFICIAL transcriptions :  https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyhistory  scroll down.   All three offer excellent service. 

It is simply NOT possible to draw any conclusion as to the origins of Mary SULLIVAN’s husband or his parents without knowing what first hand information HE gave to the clergyman when marrying Mary.   I cannot stress strongly enough HOW significant it is that the surname you are researching is one of the most popular surnames in NSW in that era, and thus how careful and dedicated you need to be when validating info before proceeding to the parents’ generation and beyond. 

JM
Modified re some grammar issues.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 February 20 12:40 GMT (UK)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65077028  Bathurst Free Press 20 Dec 1882
Police Court, …. Summons Cases ….
Mary Wilson v Charles Wilson re words spoken about his mum.    ::)

(As a possible aside, a chap named Henry LUCRE was the licencee of the Excelsior Hotel in Bathurst in that era.)

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: matthewj64 on Wednesday 12 February 20 23:00 GMT (UK)
...
About Sarah's literacy, I looked again at the marriage of Charles Wilson & Sarah Watson. https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/search/results?qu=wilson&qf=NI_INDEX%09Record+type%09Marriages%09Marriages&qf=PUBDATE%09Year%091816-1856%091816-1856&rw=156&st=PA&isd=true

It seems weird because to me it all looks to be written by the one person.

Register entry with original signatures attached

The witness 'Sarah Mills' looks to be in the same hand as 'Sarah Watson', but the shape of the 'r' between the two 'Sarah Watson' signatures don't match.

It looks to be a fairly confident signature (unlike others on the same page), which conflicts with someone later having to sign with an X

I'm not sure what to make of it  ???
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Thursday 13 February 20 00:10 GMT (UK)
Hi, 

IF that image was for a NSW record of a marriage I would confidently say that it was a transmitted record forwarded to the civil authorities by or on behalf of the Reverend.  It seems to me that is all in the one hand. 

Is it an image of the actual parish register or is it an image of the civil/official registration….  NSW civil registration commenced in 1856, but I am sure that VDL commenced the civil process much earlier … perhaps in the late 1830s.

However, until we know what information the chap who married in NSW in 1878 provided to the clergyman who conducted the ceremony between Mary SULLIVAN and himself, we really do not know if the FindMyPast info (giving his parents as Charles WILSON and Sarah BOND) has any connection to the Charles WILSON husband of Sarah WATSON and/or Sarah BOND noted in the opening post and in our replies to date.   

There was a huge population increase in NSW that commences in the 1850s and people from around the globe flocked to NSW …  not just British Subjects, but ‘aliens’ ie people who were not subject to allegiance to the British Empire.  The incoming passenger lists for that period are not nearly as detailed as you would hope for …. For example if people travelled steerage and were paying their own fare, often you only learn the actual number of people in steerage – no names, no occupations, no gender, etc…   So people coming from say the Californian gold fields to the New South Wales gold fields are very poorly documented…  People landing in Adelaide and walking overland to the Victorian Gold fields … very poorly documented ...  Intercolonial voyages eg New Zealand to any east coast colony (Vic, Qld, NSW, VDL/Tas… woeful documentation) And ... WILSON is the fifth most popular surname in NSW in the 19th century records. 

On the other hand,  back in the 1850s etc,  if you were a female, even if you were fluent in writing/reading etc IF you were asked to 'make your X mark' by clergy or government officer .... would you just make your X mark or would you enter into a JM type long winded discussion ( ;D  ;D  ;D ) as to whether you would be allowed to sign with your usual signature ...  :D   (My husband is saying "JM never just makes her mark ... she goes on and on and on ... but usually is spot on !" ) 

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: matthewj64 on Thursday 13 February 20 02:24 GMT (UK)
Hi, 

IF that image was for a NSW record of a marriage I would confidently say that it was a transmitted record forwarded to the civil authorities by or on behalf of the Reverend.  It seems to me that is all in the one hand. 

Is it an image of the actual parish register or is it an image of the civil/official registration….  NSW civil registration commenced in 1856, but I am sure that VDL commenced the civil process much earlier … perhaps in the late 1830s.

However, until we know what information the chap who married in NSW in 1878 provided to the clergyman who conducted the ceremony between Mary SULLIVAN and himself, we really do not know if the FindMyPast info (giving his parents as Charles WILSON and Sarah BOND) has any connection to the Charles WILSON husband of Sarah WATSON and/or Sarah BOND noted in the opening post and in our replies to date.   

There was a huge population increase in NSW that commences in the 1850s and people from around the globe flocked to NSW …  not just British Subjects, but ‘aliens’ ie people who were not subject to allegiance to the British Empire.  The incoming passenger lists for that period are not nearly as detailed as you would hope for …. For example if people travelled steerage and were paying their own fare, often you only learn the actual number of people in steerage – no names, no occupations, no gender, etc…   So people coming from say the Californian gold fields to the New South Wales gold fields are very poorly documented…  People landing in Adelaide and walking overland to the Victorian Gold fields … very poorly documented ...  Intercolonial voyages eg New Zealand to any east coast colony (Vic, Qld, NSW, VDL/Tas… woeful documentation) And ... WILSON is the fifth most popular surname in NSW in the 19th century records. 

On the other hand,  back in the 1850s etc,  if you were a female, even if you were fluent in writing/reading etc IF you were asked to 'make your X mark' by clergy or government officer .... would you just make your X mark or would you enter into a JM type long winded discussion ( ;D  ;D  ;D ) as to whether you would be allowed to sign with your usual signature ...  :D   (My husband is saying "JM never just makes her mark ... she goes on and on and on ... but usually is spot on !" ) 

JM

Yes, the parish register, with some signatures in very different handwriting to indicate it as being the original.

Looking at the whole page again, the same handwriting is used for all the 'X mark' names (and these match the writing for Sarah Watson), so I think it is likely that she neither signed her name or marked her X to the page.

Perhaps a mistake has been made on her convict indent where it says she can both read and write?

M
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Thursday 13 February 20 02:50 GMT (UK)
Yes,  agree, very possible.  :)

But we need to pause until we actually know about the first hand information that the Charles WILSON in 1878 gave when marrying Mary SULLIVAN...  his age, his birthplace, the names of his parents including the nee and any other names for his mum, and both his and his dad's occupations.  Those details ought to be on the original parish register.  The collective knowledge bases of NSW focused family history buffs have been well aware of the need to get to the original parish registers since at least the 1930s.  It is a core part of NSW FH101  :D  :)

NSW BDM online index continues to clearly remind us all that:

... "access to the 1856 to 1895 church marriages registers.       Some Registry marriage records from these years recorded only the details pertaining to the parties to the marriage. Details of the parents had been left blank although they appeared in the Church registers. These registrations were amended and a notation made in the margin to record the circumstances of the amendment.

The task of reconciling the Early Church Records and amending the marriage registrations was never finalised. The Registry's records from these years are not complete and it can be worthwhile for genealogists to contact the relevant church to find details missing from a marriage certificate or in the case of a birth, a baptism record where there is no corresponding civil registration."
   
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history-research/registry-records.aspx

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Thursday 13 February 20 05:33 GMT (UK)
Thanks again for so much work. I've ordered the transcription. It will take a fair while.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Thursday 13 February 20 06:06 GMT (UK)
 :)  Do you need any help with the SULLIVAN line in Central Western NSW in mid to late 1800s?

 :) where/when did Mary die?  I am wondering about her mother on law ... wondering if this is your couple  :)

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65077028  Bathurst Free Press 20 Dec 1882
Police Court, …. Summons Cases ….
Mary Wilson v Charles Wilson re words spoken about his mum.    ::)

(As a possible aside, a chap named Henry LUCRE was the licencee of the Excelsior Hotel in Bathurst in that era.)

JM


JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Thursday 13 February 20 22:25 GMT (UK)
You're  too good.
I don't know where/ when she died. Her brother Jeremiah is how I got to her.
Their parents could be these:
4017/1850 V18504017 162B SULLIVAN DANIEL SHEA ANN LG Unavailable
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Friday 14 February 20 02:00 GMT (UK)
I am drawn to the death of a Mary WILSON at Denliquin in 1891.  The online index has her parents as Daniel and Ann.  (#5527/1891).  I have NO actual ‘family history based reason’ to explain why, but I can see that there are some dots that MAY be pointers.

I am wondering if Mary and Charles had any children... NSW BDM online index has this possibility registered Bathurst district in 1879:  EDIT JM removed the baby's given names 15 Feb 0848 hours NSW AEDST 

I am getting my archival box that may have info on Jeremiah BUT it will be the weekend or later before I have it.  Sorry.

JM  EDITED to remove names of person born later than 1871.

Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Friday 14 February 20 06:59 GMT (UK)
Certainly no need to be sorry. As I've written before, you are amazing.
An archival box!
About Mary: this is probably her b: SULLIVAN MARY A 4633/1858 DANIEL ANN BATHURST Unavailable
About her d, I tried this search in NSW bdm d: Wil*son, mar*,  father dan*, mother ann*, 01/01/1829 to 31/12/ 1989:
& your one was the only one/ 10 that actually seemed to fit.
I couldn't find it on trove.
I'd like not to go into people b after 1871 if I can avoid it.
Jeremiah worked for the railways for many years. He and his wife Fanny Sarah Emma BALMER lived in Orange for a long time. He later moved to Sydney.
This is a fairly big sample of what I have, so that you don't have to redo things I might already have.:
their m: 2383/1893 SULLIVAN JEREMIAH BALMER FANNY T E BOURKE Unavailable (also https://www.findmypast.com.au/transcript?id=ANZ%2FBMD%2FNSW%2FM%2F0004535409 )

his d SULLIVAN JEREMIAH 3950/1936 DANIEL ANN MARRICKVILLE Unavailable
e.g. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17324083?searchTerm=sullivan&searchLimits=l-state=New+South+Wales|||l-decade=193|||l-year=1936|||l-month=3|||l-category=Family+Notices
(There are other articles which mention children: don't want to put them on here.)

his bu e.g. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17320751?searchTerm=sullivan&searchLimits=l-state=New+South+Wales|||l-decade=193|||l-year=1936|||l-month=3|||l-category=Family+Notices

& d & bu e.g. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WT-SYPJ

FindMyPast has more e.g. his will & he & Fanny on electoral rolls 1903 & 1913.

Fanny
b: BALMER FANNY S E 1808/1868 WILLIAM G EMILY SYDNEY Unavailable (William George & Emily TURNER probably)
Fanny's family possibly went back to England & are on the 1881 census Hackney, then may have come back on the Cheviot in 1885.
d: SULLIVAN FANNY S E 10003/1927 GEORGE 58 YEARS ORANGE Unavailable
There are trove articles about her death but the ones I've found so far mention their children.

I had found some things about their family on World Connect, but haven't seen where they are now that World Connect has changed.
I would love to know more about their parents. It might be a case of more transcriptions needed!
Thanks again.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Friday 14 February 20 21:53 GMT (UK)
Hi, 

 :) I have edited my post to remove the name I sourced from the online NSW BDM index for births, as I had not fully appreciated your earlier mentions re not more recent than 1871.  Sorry.

 :) I don't have 'an archival box'  ... no,  no, no,  I don't have a couple of archival boxes ...  I have quite a number of them.    ;D  ;D  ;D   :)   

JM 

I am drawn to the death of a Mary WILSON at Denliquin in 1891.  The online index has her parents as Daniel and Ann.  (#5527/1891).  I have NO actual ‘family history based reason’ to explain why, but I can see that there are some dots that MAY be pointers.

I am wondering if Mary and Charles had any children... NSW BDM online index has this possibility registered Bathurst district in 1879:  EDIT JM removed the baby's given names 15 Feb 0848 hours NSW AEDST 

I am getting my archival box that may have info on Jeremiah BUT it will be the weekend or later before I have it.  Sorry.

JM  EDITED to remove names of person born later than 1871.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Saturday 15 February 20 21:30 GMT (UK)
Heaven!
Thanks.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Wednesday 19 February 20 21:51 GMT (UK)
Hi,
The transcription has been emailed!
It has Charles Wilson bachelor, labourer, usual residence Bathurst, & Mary Ann Sullivan, spinster, usual residence Bathurst, m 19 Dec 1878 Cathedral of All Saints, Bathurst, religion Church of England,  witnesses Thomas Johnson & Teresa Sager & minister Thomas Smith. It has none recorded for both birthplaces & ages, both sets of parents, both father occupations & Mary's occupation.

This was family search's transcription.https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCY-1M1
Family search: Charles Wilson, “Australia Marriages, 1810-1980” image available at family history centres
Name: Charles Wilson; Birthplace: … …; Spouse’s Name: May Ann Sullivan; Spouse’s Birthplace: …; Event Date: 19 Dec 1878; Event Place: Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia; Father’s Name: Charles Wilson; Mother’s Name: Sarah Bond; Spouse’s Father’s Name: Danil Sullivan; Mother’s Name: Ann Sha…; Marital Status: Single; Spouse’s Marital Status: Single; Record Collection: Australia Marriages, 1810-1980; Document Information: Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M00383-5; System Origin: Australia; GS Film number: 992679; Reference ID: vol5
Citing this Record: "Australia Marriages, 1810-1980," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCY-1M1 : 10 February 2018), Charles Wilson and May Ann Sullivan, 19 Dec 1878; citing Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia, reference vol5; FHL microfilm 992,679.

What would you suggest is my next step? Is it to contact http://www.allsaintscathedralbathurst.com.au/ ? They have an email address. Do you still suggest snail mail?
I think I might explore my state library &/or archives first. Not only will that not put anyone out, but it might reveal more (won't be this week I don't think).

Also I have gone through your great thread again about marriage blanks. Do you have any similar ones about b, bp, d, or burials? I have gone through all my NSW certs. I'm not sure if there is any further step to take with them. I actually had a reconciled marriage one! The non-marriage ones don't have many blanks. They have things like not stated sometimes. Two of them are from asylums and may not really have had any more information. I'll also try the library/ archives for these.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Friday 21 February 20 22:41 GMT (UK)
 :)

Good to know that official transcription has arrived.  Yes,  contacting Bathurst Archivist is sensible, particularly  if you share that official transcription.  Yes,  probably acceptable to make contact via email.


Did it mention if anyone gave consent?  If not, then likely both bride and groom aged 21 or more  :) and thus old enough to give their own consents.

No, I have not prepared threads for  researching NSW baptisms or burials.  I do think it is important to 'know the context, the practicals, the rules & protocols etc' that were influencing how the events were recorded at the time. 


JM

Hi,
The transcription has been emailed!
It has Charles Wilson bachelor, labourer, usual residence Bathurst, & Mary Ann Sullivan, spinster, usual residence Bathurst, m 19 Dec 1878 Cathedral of All Saints, Bathurst, religion Church of England,  witnesses Thomas Johnson & Teresa Sager & minister Thomas Smith. It has none recorded for both birthplaces & ages, both sets of parents, both father occupations & Mary's occupation.

This was family search's transcription.https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCY-1M1
Family search: Charles Wilson, “Australia Marriages, 1810-1980” image available at family history centres
Name: Charles Wilson; Birthplace: … …; Spouse’s Name: May Ann Sullivan; Spouse’s Birthplace: …; Event Date: 19 Dec 1878; Event Place: Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia; Father’s Name: Charles Wilson; Mother’s Name: Sarah Bond; Spouse’s Father’s Name: Danil Sullivan; Mother’s Name: Ann Sha…; Marital Status: Single; Spouse’s Marital Status: Single; Record Collection: Australia Marriages, 1810-1980; Document Information: Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M00383-5; System Origin: Australia; GS Film number: 992679; Reference ID: vol5
Citing this Record: "Australia Marriages, 1810-1980," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCY-1M1 : 10 February 2018), Charles Wilson and May Ann Sullivan, 19 Dec 1878; citing Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia, reference vol5; FHL microfilm 992,679.

What would you suggest is my next step? Is it to contact http://www.allsaintscathedralbathurst.com.au/ ? They have an email address. Do you still suggest snail mail?
I think I might explore my state library &/or archives first. Not only will that not put anyone out, but it might reveal more (won't be this week I don't think).

Also I have gone through your great thread again about marriage blanks. Do you have any similar ones about b, bp, d, or burials? I have gone through all my NSW certs. I'm not sure if there is any further step to take with them. I actually had a reconciled marriage one! The non-marriage ones don't have many blanks. They have things like not stated sometimes. Two of them are from asylums and may not really have had any more information. I'll also try the library/ archives for these.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Saturday 22 February 20 04:06 GMT (UK)
Thanks again. I will take your advice about the email. When you say share the transcription, does that mean it's ok copyright-wise to send the official transcription direct to them, rather than my transcription of the transcription? Do I address it to the Archivist? Am i asking for parish registers of the same event? I find it all a bit daunting.
I've been exploring what's available at our state (Qld) library & trying to work out what might go with what resource I find, so I don't waste the visit. I've been there several times before and found them very helpful.
Thanks again for your fantastic marriage thread & all your help.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Saturday 02 May 20 01:03 BST (UK)
Quote
You see, there's quite a number of trees that have 'your' Charles born 1850 etc etc etc and then in 1867 he died in Sydney, parents as Charles and Sarah.    Some of them note the NSW BDM reference no. for his death as 1529/1867.

Hi again,
I now have some more info and another question.
I now have a transcription re the death of the Charles who died in 1867. He was aged 8 3/4 but his mother was Sarah Robinson.
I also have the parish record of the m of Charles Wilson and Mary Ann Sullivan.
Charles's father was a sailor, which seems good. They were both full age. Sarah's birthplace could be Limekilns, which seems to fit with the GOLD idea.
Quote
And that causes me to say ‘GOLD FIELDS’
I can't read his birthplace and that's what I would like help with please. I'll do it as a separate post.
image: no headings of columns:
All Saints
Cathedral   Charles Wilson      Bachelor   .....?      Labourer   full?
Bathurst
19th December Mary Ann Sullivan   Spinster   Lime? Kilns?   -      full
1878

Charles Wilson   Sailor
Bathurst   Sarah Bond

Bathurst   Daniel Sullivan   Labourer
Ann Shane?

   Charles Wilson              Thos Johnson?
This marriage was   (         In the presence of us   (
solemnized between us   ( Mary Ann Sullivan            ( Teresa Sager?

By (or before) me Thomas Smith Officiating Minister or Registrar.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Saturday 02 May 20 01:14 BST (UK)
NSW Electoral Roll 1878 BATHURST
Thomas JOHNSON, household, George Street
Daniel SULLIVAN, residence, William Street
James SHAE, residence, Havannah Street  (note the spelling for the surname ... :) )

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Saturday 02 May 20 01:20 BST (UK)
PS ...  Limekilns, the locality still exists.  Postcode 2795.   :)

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Saturday 02 May 20 01:28 BST (UK)
Thanks again!
I have to rush off but will be back. I'm having trouble with getting a sample from the pdf.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: clancam37 on Saturday 02 May 20 02:43 BST (UK)
Glad to help re any Tasmanian sites to look up.

Regards
clancam37
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Saturday 02 May 20 03:56 BST (UK)
Thanks again.
I've used the snipping tool this time.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Saturday 02 May 20 05:43 BST (UK)
I've also done a snip of the witness Teresa, as I am not at all confident that her last name is Sager.
Thanks for looking up the other witness on the electoral rolls. I'll do one of Mary Ann's mum too.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Saturday 02 May 20 05:47 BST (UK)
Here is Mary Ann's mum, with the surname that seems to have so many different spellings.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Saturday 02 May 20 06:38 BST (UK)
 :)  If you use the search box at the following link, and enter BATHURST for the surname  ::)  ::) yes  ::), you will get lots of returns, including all the outlying villages that were serviced from Bathurst in that era...  eg Limekilns.  There's also link to Bathurst Cemetery.  :)  lots of surnames in alphabetical order, great for scrolling through... :)

http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=1&cid=296   ;D  ;D  ;D  8)

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Monday 04 May 20 21:57 BST (UK)
Thanks for that. I've been exploring that, and have found and started exploring 3 other sites: https://www.heatgg.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Bathurst-Free-Press-combined-in-Locality-ABC-order.pdf

https://www.heatgg.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Bathurst-Free-Press-Index-of-Names.pdf
 
and http://gutenberg.net.au/hill-end/_home.html

I've also been looking at trees about e.g. Daniel SULLIVAN and Ann SHEA. By the way, she's SHEA in some at least of her children's b/ bp in family search.
I'm just about to put the snips in the handwriting section to see if someone there can help with them.
Thanks for all your help again.
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Monday 04 May 20 23:58 BST (UK)
Very sensible.  You may need to give them a big snip of a larger section,  so they can recognise that some of the information is written by the clergyman, but some are signatures so there will be nothing else to compare on that church register.

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Wednesday 06 May 20 01:20 BST (UK)
From the efforts on the Decipher Board's thread ...
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=830347.0


NSW ER1878 WEST MACQUARIE electorate (bordered Bathurst electorate)

All these with surname SHEA
Patrick, residence, Rockley
Thomas, leasehold, Reedy Creek
John, leasehold, Brownlea
Timothy, residence, Reedy Creek
John, junior, residence, Brown's Creek

All these with surname WILSON showing of course the popularity of Wilson as a surname...
Edward H, leasehold, Teapot Swamp
James, residence, Teapot Swamp
Edward, freehold, Teapot Swamp
Noble, freehold, Caloola
Thomas, residence, Three Brothers
George, residence, Teapot Swamp
John, freehold, Carr's Creek
Robert, residence, Reedy Creek
Robert T, freehold, Reedy Creek
James, freehold, Reedy Creek
James, residence, Lane's Crossing

I have NOT found HONEYMAN ...  ::)

GREVILLES 1875 PO Directory for Rockley
John SHEA, farmer, Reedy Creek
Thomas SHEA, farmer, Reedy Creek
Patrick SHEA, overseer, Brownlea

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Wednesday 06 May 20 02:03 BST (UK)
I have just posted the following on the other current thread
So, it is likely that the church register informs us that:

At All Saints Cathedral, Bathurst on 19 December 1878,
Charles WILSON, a bachelor, born New Zealand, a labourer of full age, usually residing in Bathurst, the son of Charles Wilson, a sailor, and Sarah Bond
married
Mary Ann SULLIVAN, a spinster, born Limekilns, of full age, usually residing in Bathurst,  the daughter of Daniel Sullivan, a labourer and Ann Shea

The witnesses were Thos Johnson and Teresa Sager.  The clergyman was Rev Thomas Smith.

 ;D

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Wednesday 06 May 20 02:49 BST (UK)
Thanks again for all your effort. I think that transcript is right. Should I mark this one and the other ar complete?
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: judb on Thursday 07 May 20 01:00 BST (UK)
In my opinion, unless there is a very good reason,  it's better not to mark a thread as complete.  It's not uncommon for a contributor or a family member to pop up even years later, sometimes with very good extra information.

Judith
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: majm on Thursday 07 May 20 01:06 BST (UK)
Judith is, as always, giving Excellent advice :)

JM
Title: Re: Charles WILSON Sarah WATSON convict Sarah BOND Ireland Lincs Tas NSW Qld
Post by: searchr on Thursday 07 May 20 20:53 BST (UK)
I will take your excellent advice.