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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: sugarfizzle on Saturday 18 January 20 14:08 GMT (UK)
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Hoping someone can help.
In 1871
Robert Murray, Head, Mar, M, 43, Boiler Maker, Born Scotland
Christiana Murray, Wife, Mar, F, 43, , Born Scotland
Sons John 19, Boiler Maker, James 11 Scholar, Both born Scotland
Sons Charles 3, Samuel 5 mths, Both born Liverpool, Lancashire
Address Orry Street, Liverpool
GRO birth registration for Charles and Samuel indicates that Christiana's maiden name was Stephenson/Stevenson and there is a birth for James Murray 24 Dec 1860, Parents Robert Murray and Christina Stevenson, Greenock, Renfrewshire, Scotland.
However, it is John that I am really interested in. No marriage found for Robert Murray to Christiana Stevenson that I can see, John may not have been her son (or alternatively, may not have been Robert's son, 'adopted' into the family after he met Christiana).
I would be grateful for any input regarding this family.
Regards Margaret
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Hi Margaret
The marriage and son John's birth were before the start of official registration in Scotland, from 1855.
Only about a third of BMD events were recorded in Parish Registers before 1855, and in additonal many registers were lost or destroyed over the years unfortunately.
These entries may not be there to be found...
Monica
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Have you checked for any entries in the pre 1855 registers? The only source for these are Scotlands People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk (currently down for maintenance till Tuesday 21st).
Monica
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Margaret, you are in luck...but will have to wait till Tuesday to view this cert!
Robert and Christina had a child in 1855, Robert www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F73P-ZQN
The first year of Scottish statutory registrations and BMD certs ran over two pages of the register with lots of additional info for that year only. From 1856, info includd was reduced. For an 1855 birth cert you should see on the cert the date and place of parents' marriage (info reintroduced from the early 1860s), often you will see age of parents and importantly, how many children they had (boys/girls, alive/deceased).
Certainly worth looking at. This Robert must have died as there is another registration for a Robert born in 1863 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F73P-ZQR
Monica
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Thank you, Monica.
I have never used Scotland's People before, do I take it that details for Robert born 1855 are likely to be comprehensive?
A bit confused, I have found the following baptism in Liverpool -
6 May 1855, Robert son of Robert and Christina Murray, Blackstone and Boiler Maker
There is no corresponding GRO birth registration for this Robert.
I might have thought that the move to England was between Feb 1855 and May 1855, but if another son was born in Scotland in 1863, this is perhaps unlikely.
I take it I am unlikely to find a marriage for Robert and Christina, though details for Robert 1855 might give details of when and where married.
Thank you again, Monica
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The birth in Greenock for Robert Jnr shows on 9 Feb 1855. Certainly could fit that the family had him christened down in Liverpool a few months later. Hopefully the 1855 can fill out some details.
Have you found the family in 1861? I haven't been able to find them so far.
Monica
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Try FreeCEN 1861 Renfrewshire -
Christine Stevenson MURRAY 34 Visitr Born Leith Midlothian.
Says unmarried but has sons John 8 and James 11 months.
ev
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Good find, Ev :)
Monica
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1891 census. 116 Howe( looks like!) Street, Everton
James Murray [spelt Murrey here] Head, 30, Plumber, b Renfrewshire, Scotland
Sarah J, 27, Wife, b Birkenhead, Cheshire
Samuel, 21, Brother, Single, Printer (badly written) Corporation? b Liverpool
Caroline Howell, 66, Mother in Law, Widow, Charwoman, b Wolverhampton
I think James Murray married a Sarah Jane Howell on 12 Jun 1888, Liverpool.
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Corporation?
Compositor, perhaps?
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Thanks to all for beavering away for me.
1861 Scotland census, in household of John Murray, 57 Sugar House Labourer and Margaret Frane Murray, 58 - potentially parents of Robert Murray?
I do have the family in England, inc James Murray, Plumber and brother Samuel in 1891. Samuel was given as Printer (Compositor).
Regards Margaret
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I thought they could be Robert's parents too. Sometimes 'visitor' can be used to generally for our liking!
The transcript for 1861 on FreeCen www.freecen.org.uk that Ev mentioned earlier is more accurate than that showing on A/try. FreeCen show Margaret Ford or Murray. Also, www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VB7S-MFG
In Scotland, women never lost the legal use of their maiden names which is why it features so heavily on records.
When Scotlands People is back up and running from Tuesdays, we can have a go at trying to find other records with you.
Monica
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Margaret, SP is up and running a day early!
I have checked the Old Parish Register databases and can't see anything for Robert and Christina and children pre 1855.
Best place for you to start now would be to check out the 1855 birth cert for their son Robert.
Monica
PS: Let us know what you find ;)
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Very interesting, especially birthplace of Robert Murray senior.
East Parish of Greenock, Renfrewshire
Robert Murray, Male, Born 9 Feb 1855
Address [17 or 27], Arthur Street, Greenock
Father Robert Murray, Boiler Maker, Age 26yrs, Born Coast of Africa
Married 1851 [?Henth/Heath], 2 boys living, present entry included
Mother Christina Murray, Maiden name Stevenson, 2nd child, Age 25 yrs, Born Leith
Informant Father, Registered 10 Feb 1855
Any clues as to marriage place?
Regards Margaret
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Marriage place?
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Complete guess here! John Murray, who we have earmarked as potentially Robert's father, showed a birth place in 1861 of Hamilton. Could the word be Hamilton??
You can request an enhanced image from SP when the writing is difficult to make out. The H starts strong and then there are gaps and fades.
From the other details, the 1861 birth place for Christina showing also as Leith makes it a good match with the birth reg info.
2 boys born, including Robert. We have to assume that the first is John.
The birth place for Robert, wonder if father was in the army?
Monica
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Marriage place?
Looks like Hull to me.
FreeBMD lists a marriage of Robert Murray in Sculcoates in the December quarter of 1851. One of the brides listed is Christiana Stevenson. Sculcoates is next to Hull.
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I can see Hull clearly now, especially if I screw my eyes up, but at the time it looked more drawn out. Wasn't looking in England.
Thanks for a pair of fresh eyes.
A highly mobile family, back and forth between England and Scotland.
Thank you everyone for your help.
Regards Margaret
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They married 13 Oct 1851, All Saints, Sculcoates
Robert Murray, 23, Mariner, Father John Murray, Boiler Maker
Christiana Stevenson, 23, , Father John Stevenson, Shipwright
Witnesses James Allison, Isabella Stevenson
Regards Margaret
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Well done, Forfarian. Hull it was! Agreed, Margaret. A long drawn out script.
Margaret, the additional details you have from the marriage certainly bring you closer to the John and Margaret from 1861.
Monica
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Another find, backs up Army background for John Murray
1851 census
John Murray, Head, Mar, M, 47, Chelsea Pensioner (Royal Artillery), Scotland
Margaret Murray, Wife, Mar, F, , Scotland
James Murray, Son, Unm, M, 20, , Ceylon BS
Ann J Meldrom, Visitor, Unm, F, 9, Scholar, Scotland
Address 14, Boynton Place, Kingston upon Hull
Margaret
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Certainly does back it all up.
This is the only entry I could see for John Murray https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8867201
Birth year would fit.
No idea what the name place of COMNITHIE, Lanarkshire for his birth place is meant to be? 1861 showed Hamilton Lanarkshire.
A/try have these additional details:
Name: Jno Murray
Pension Admission or Examination Age: 41
Birth Year: abt 1804
Birth Place: Commthe, Lanark
Pension Admission or Examination Date: 14 Jan 1845
Regiment: 1st Battalion
Rank: G & D
You can view these service papers on Find my Past and Fold 3.
Monica
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Monica, I spent the day yesterday looking up military records for John Murray and saw a few, including the one you mention. Nothing conclusive though. I have subscription to Ancestry and Findmypast, but not Fold3.
I did find a birth/baptism for James Murray, 1830, Colombo, Ceylon, but no details as to parentage.
Anne J Meldrum in 1851 census was daughter of James Meldrum and Agnes Tarvitt, born Cellardyle, Fife c 1842.
Agnes Tarvitt was daughter of James Tarvitt/Tarvett and Margaret Brown, born Cellardyke, Fife 1804.
James and Margaret had several children, including Margaret Tarvitt, born 1802.
In 1861 census Margaret Ford Murray was born c 1803, Cellardyke, Fife.
Coincidence? Probably, but worth looking into.
Regards Margaret
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No idea what the name place of COMNITHIE, Lanarkshire for his birth place is meant to be? 1861 showed Hamilton Lanarkshire.
In the original it is '.... parish of Comnithie ....' so I think it has to be Camnethan, a common abbreviation for Cambusnethan.
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My mother's name was Janet Murray. Born in Greenock. Her father was Robert Murray.
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lonestaracman, A very warm welcome to Rootschat.
I am not descended from this family, I am researching for my husband's cousin, whose mother was a Murray, daughter of Francis/Frank Murray and Elizabeth Jane Stead, married in Liverpool in 1899.
Is this the same family as yours, do you think? Francis was born in Liverpool in 1880, but his father John Murray was from Greenock, son of Robert Murray and Christiana Stevenson.
Regards Margaret
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I can not trace my family back that far yet. But these names you mention seem encouraging to me. My grandfather's name is Robert Murray. He had 5 children, two of whom were named John and Christina. Could they have been named after this previous generation? Maybe.
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Welcome from me too :)
Have you started working back in stages? For example, have you looked for your maternal grandparents' marriage certificate? This will help you by confirming their parents' names and so on from there. You should also by then be able to search the families on the censuses. This also adds more details and help you expand their families with siblings etc.
The source for BMDs in Scotland is www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Monica