RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: scottmathew on Saturday 25 January 20 13:54 GMT (UK)
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Hello all.
I was recently trying to find out where my two-times great grandfather (so my great-great-grandfather) William Villette (1859-1934) was born, exactly. I made a post in the beginners' forums and thanks to the help of quite a few members of this website, I think I've now got the answer (which is Princess Street, Haymarket, London).
But during the discussion in that thread, conversation and interest moved on to William Villette's father, Polette Villette (on some family history sites, his name is indexed as "Pullette"). Polette Villette would be my three-times great grandfather.
Again, with the help of people on this website, I'm being led to believe he was an immigrant to the United Kingdom from France (I had suspected this anyway, due to his name which to me certainly sounds French).
Through research I've carried out, I've learned that there were two really big waves of immigration from France to the UK in 1848 and again in the winter of 1851-52.
I am assuming he came over during one of these waves, and it seems he settled in the area of London called Marylebone (which had a large French community). It also seems he married an English woman called Rebecca Hull (who would be my three-times great grandmother) with whom he had, to my knowledge, two children - a son William (my two-times great grandfather) and a daughter Rebecca who died in 1866 as a baby in a workhouse in Marylebone.
Ultimately, my aim is now to find out where Polette Villette came from originally (was he indeed a migrant from France) or even, perhaps, where he was born. I know that Polette's father was called Charles Villette (this is shown on Polette's marriage to Rebecca Hull).
Great progress was made in the original thread, and I was advised to post here, as you guys with much more knowledge and experience with European family history research would likely be able to offer better help. Here is the original thread:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=824583.new;topicseen#new
Hopefully together we can solve this one - I'm searching high and low. :)
Thanks everyone.
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What do the censuses say about his place of birth?
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What do the censuses say about his place of birth?
So far, we've only been able to find records of Polette Villette on his marriage to my three-times great grandmother Rebecca Hull which was in 1858 or 1859 I think (sorry, I'd have to go back to the original thread I posted to find that exact date) and on the records of his son William Villette's christening in February 1859.
Additional info that I forgot to add was that Polette was a tailor.
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Rebecca, status married, born Gretton,can be found in 1861 with Pullette W, born 1858, but no sign of Polite (etc) Villitte, husband (name from marr cert). On the 1871 Census she is a widow, without Pullette W, born 1858. Her relationship to head of household is not given.
So, where is Polite in 1861?. Cannot find a death between 1858-1871.
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Rebecca, status married, born Gretton,can be found in 1861 with Pullette W, born 1858, but no sign of Polite (etc) Villitte, husband (name from marr cert). On the 1871 Census she is a widow, without Pullette W, born 1858. Her relationship to head of household is not given.
So, where is Polite in 1861?. Cannot find a death between 1858-1871.
On the 1861 Census, both Rebecca and her son (my 2 x Great grandfather) Pullette William Villette are living with Rebecca's brother John Hull in Gretton, Northamptonshire.
Then, like you, when I looked at the 1871 Census I realised Rebecca was no longer living with them. (Pullette) William Villette is still living with his uncle John Hull in Gretton but Rebecca seems to have left the household.
This kind of fits in with some details I was given by another poster in the original thread. They posted some info they'd found that, in 1866, Rebecca was in London (Marylebone) with her baby daughter Rebecca in a workhouse - both were said to be "ill" and the baby died on 11 August 1866. There was a note with this record saying that Rebecca's husband (Polette, of course) had left her 8 months prior to this.
By the way, on the 1861 Census when both Rebecca and her son (Pullette) William Villette are in Gretton, there is no Polette Villette (Rebecca's husband).
So my picture so far from the info we currently have, obtained through helpful posters on the original thread:
Polette Villette marries Rebecca Hull on 18 May 1858 in St James, Westminster. The witnesses to marriage are, I think (?), Charles Villette (Polette's father) and an Amy Villette.
Polette and Rebecca Villette have a son, Polette/Pullette/Pullit William Villette (whom I will from now on just refer to as "William Villette") who is baptised at St Anne's in Soho in February 1859.
In 1861 Rebecca and son William Villette have moved from London to live with Rebecca's brother John Hull in the village of Gretton, in Northamptonshire. Polette Villette doesn't seem to have made the move to Gretton with them.
In July 1866, there is a record of Rebecca having been admitted into a workhouse in Marylebone, London - she is sick with a newborn baby (also called Rebecca) who dies on 11 August 1866. Notes on this record say her husband, Polette, had left her 8 months prior.
In 1871, William Villette is still living with his uncle in Gretton - but Rebecca is no longer living with them. I would guess, sometime between the 1861 Census and the Marylebone Workhouse record of 1866, Rebecca must have moved from Gretton back to London (to be back with Polette?). The couple split up/Polette leaves her while she is pregnant (8 months prior to July 1866 would be December 1865, maybe he left her when he found out she was pregnant).
Polette Villette then dies some time before the 1871 Census - because on that Census Rebecca is described as being a widow. Or, perhaps, he has simply left Rebecca and she does not know his whereabouts, and she just tells the person/people doing the Census that he is dead.
My strongest hunch is that Polette Villette was from France, came over here to the UK for a very short while (just a few years) where he married Rebecca Hull who gave birth to my great-great grandfather William Villette in 1859 (some online records say 1858) and a daughter Rebecca in 1866 who died as a baby. Polette left Rebecca pregnant with daughter and possibly went back to France? His possibly having been born in and going back to and later dying in France, is why we have no British records of either his birth or death. This is my theory.
What do you think?
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If this Charles is Pullitt snr's father then there is only one census with an entry that doesn't just say France [the 1881].
1861 RG 9; Piece: 60; Folio: 43; Page: 32
Charles Villitt 40
Amy Villitt 34
Camille Villitt 8
All born France
1881 RG11; Piece: 124; Folio: 80; Page: 7 Westminster Union Workhouse
Does anyone have experience of French baptism records to look for Pollitt?
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On the 1861 Census, both Rebecca and her son (my 2 x Great grandfather) Pullette William Villette are living with Rebecca's brother John Hull in Gretton, Northamptonshire.
Then, like you, when I looked at the 1871 Census I realised Rebecca was no longer living with them. (Pullette) William Villette is still living with his uncle John Hull in Gretton but Rebecca seems to have left the household.
Remember that the census is a snapshot of who was staying at an address on a single night ;D
Doesn't mean they were living there?
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On the 1861 Census, both Rebecca and her son (my 2 x Great grandfather) Pullette William Villette are living with Rebecca's brother John Hull in Gretton, Northamptonshire.
Then, like you, when I looked at the 1871 Census I realised Rebecca was no longer living with them. (Pullette) William Villette is still living with his uncle John Hull in Gretton but Rebecca seems to have left the household.
Remember that the census is a snapshot of who was staying at an address on a single night ;D
Doesn't mean they were living there?
Very true haha
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This from chempat on the other thread
Polette was of full age when he married in 1858, so should have been born by 1837.
Charles Villette born 1821 more likely to be a brother, if related.
Westminster Union records has him admitted in 1880, born in 1823, and discharged through death in July 1903.
Arrivals?
Charles Villette : arrival port Folkestone on 19th May 1851 from France
He had a passport from the French Government.
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If this Charles is Pullitt snr's father then there is only one census with an entry that doesn't just say France [the 1881].
1861 RG 9; Piece: 60; Folio: 43; Page: 32
Charles Villitt 40
Amy Villitt 34
Camille Villitt 8
All born France
1881 RG11; Piece: 124; Folio: 80; Page: 7 Westminster Union Workhouse
Does anyone have experience of French baptism records to look for Pollitt?
This is interesting, as I think both Charles and Amy were witnesses at the wedding of Polette Villette and Rebecca Hull in Westminster.
Is this record saying that the Charles Villette (or "Villitt" as it has been spelled here) was aged 40 in 1861 or 1881? I see the two dates at both the top and bottom of your post, respectively. If 40 in 1861, I think this is probably Polette's father, but if only 40 in 1881 - then no, definitely not, I'd say...as this would give him a birthdate as around the same kind of time as Polette.
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On the workhouse entries in 1880s he is born ca 1821. As Chempat pointed out this is too young to have a son [Pullitt snr] born 1837 or before [full age on marriage in 1858].
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On the workhouse entries in 1880s he is born ca 1821. As Chempat pointed out this is too young to have a son [Pullitt snr] born 1837 or before [full age on marriage in 1858].
So this Charles was probably his brother then, I would think. And Amy his brother's wife. I'm going to have to go back to the original post in the Beginners' Forum, but I think Charles and Amy were the witnesses at Polette's marriage.
It would make sense for him to have his brother and sister-in-law as witnesses at his marriage, I guess, if his father Charles (who would seemingly be Charles "Senior") was still living back in France.
Perhaps Charles Snr never came to the UK, and only his sons Charles and Polette did.
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On the workhouse census of 1881 ,Westminster St James,where both Amy aged 52 , a tailoress and Charles 60 , a tailor are living .
Her birthplace is given as Meadone France and his as Mendarne France.
There seems no such places but there is , possibly, a place in Brittany with a similar sounding name, Medon, and there were a lot of Villette families in Brittany but also in the Dordogne.
It would seem that a Charles Villette possibly had two sons at least , Charles, born about 1821 (who married Amy in France and they had Camille before coming to England ) and Polette born about 1837 a who married Rebecca Hull from Gretton.
This is supposition at present. Polette might have been a relative of Charles not necessarily a much younger brother.
What is Polette,s father's occupation on the marriage certificate?
The Polette Villette arriving in England from Italy was also a tailor if I remember rightly.
He may have come via Italy from France to England.
When leaving France people did not always take the most direct route.
Poulette , Rebecca,s husband my have needed to return to France and died there if you cannot fiind his death in England.
Where were both Poulette Villette and Rebecca Hull in 1851?
Where is Rebecca buried
On 1891 census a Rebecca Villette, widow aged 63 ,cook, is at St James Uppingham.
In 1901, on 31 March she is still in Uppingham
On 1871 there is a Rebecca Villette, awidow aged 42 living atMarylebone St John, birthplace Northumberland.
If these are all the same Rebecca then she had the baby , Rebecca, in July 1866 at St Marylebone, baby died , then
mother gott well and moved up to Uppingham?
It may be you will need to join one of the paying sites to sort some things out.
I could not have found my family without being a subscriber to various sites over the years though some of my most valuable finds came via the kindness of those who searched for me in record offices or on rootschat..
If you can establish where Polette came from then the mayor of the town might give you some help.
It is a strange name?
It may have come from a mother,s surname or a derivation of Paul.
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Hi @Lola5
Thanks for your reply.
It would seem the Rebecca Villette at age 63 in 1891 living in "Uppingham" (which would have been the district Gretton in Northamptonshire came under) is, I would say, the same Rebecca Villette at age 42 in Marylebone in 1871.
Aged 42 at the time of the 1871 Census would mean this Rebecca Villette was born in 1829 or in 1828 and was coming up for 43 at some time in 1871. Rebecca at age 63 in 1891, would mean she was born in 1828 - I am not sure what the likelihood is that there was more than one Rebecca Villette born in the same year. Also, this info you have provided saying that she was at Marylebone St John in 1871 fits perfectly with the fact that she is absent from her brother's house in Gretton, Northamptonshire on the 1871 Census where her son was present at the time of that particular census.
Yes, it seems Rebecca Villette spent the 1860s/early 1870s at least going in between Gretton and London - seems she did so twice at least. Funny that Polette and Rebecca's son William went to go and live with his uncle, Rebecca's brother John Hull.
According to another user in the original thread over at the Beginners forum, Polette Villette's father Charles Villette's occupation is stated as "labourer" on Polette's marriage certificate/record to Rebecca Hull.
I'm sure the birthplace for Rebecca Hull on the 1871 Census is supposed to say Northamptonshire as opposed to Northumberland (I can see why the error was made, as both have "North" in their names!).
Thanks for your help, @Lola5. And yes, I agree; Polette is a very strange name and unusual I think even in France (I've looked on Google) but it is certainly French sounding.
The Charles and Amy Villette you mention were certainly part of Polette's family, as both these people were witnesses at Polette's marriage to Rebecca Hull. But as you rightly point out, Charles may not have been his brother but another type of relative. In my opinion, it is most likely that it was his brother, as Polette's father was called Charles and so Charles Villette (husband of Amy) was possibly the elder son of Charles Villette (Polette's father) and was named after him for that reason?
Going back to Rebecca, I did find a death record for her in the early 1900s the other night, I've forgotten on which website, which was recorded in "Uppingham" district, so I assume she died in Gretton and not in Marylebone or any other place in London.
It seems to me that Polette left London to go back to France for some reason, and when he did, rather than stay in London alone, Rebecca went back to Northamptonshire (sometime after 1871). Her death is recorded as "Rebecca Villette", so I guess she didn't re-marry after Polette left her (was it socially acceptable to do so in the 19th century?)
Things seem to be slowly but surely coming together. You've helped clarify/reinforce one or two things, so thank you for your help.
And I agree with you, there are so many people on this site who are passionate about researching other people's families and many of them have been really kind to me in helping me so far. Yourself included.
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Hello,
I join in and here is what I think after having read the threads :
Polette is very unprobable , it could be Polite ( pronounce it "Poleete" a rare first name in France but it was given , see here : https://www.geneanet.org/prenom/Polite , zoom in on the plan)
The witness Charles Villette and his wife could be Polette 's relatives , but there birthplaces have been mistranscribed (Meadone, Mendarne, Mendaine aren't french towns but they have in common : M??D??N.
I thought it could be Meudon but found only a Pierre Villette born march 1837 to a Marie Barbe Villette , unmarried. I don't think either that Amy is the correct firstname if she was born in France .
Have you found PW Villette's birth on Free BMD or GRO ?
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Bonjour et bienvenu, joger; I was hoping you found this thread as you have such a wide knowledge of French records :)
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Could be Menton? Near Nice.
Near Italian border.
We seem now to have two threads so which one to reply to?
Also Polette could be Pallet? Lots of Pallet surnames in France.
Maybe a marriage between a male Villette and a female Pallet ? Wife's surname then used as first name for son?
All is possible.
Keep all possibilities in mind when searching.
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Hello,
I join in and here is what I think after having read the threads :
Polette is very unprobable , it could be Polite ( pronounce it "Poleete" a rare first name in France but it was given , see here : https://www.geneanet.org/prenom/Polite , zoom in on the plan)
The witness Charles Villette and his wife could be Polette 's relatives , but there birthplaces have been mistranscribed (Meadone, Mendarne, Mendaine aren't french towns but they have in common : M??D??N.
I thought it could be Meudon but found only a Pierre Villette born march 1837 to a Marie Barbe Villette , unmarried. I don't think either that Amy is the correct firstname if she was born in France .
Have you found PW Villette's birth on Free BMD or GRO ?
Hi there. Thanks for your input. I also think "Polette" is incorrect, but it does appear this is how he spelled his own name during his marriage to Rebecca (somebody in previous thread posted an image of the signatures on the actual record). But we may have interpreted his joined-up handwriting incorrectly - it could indeed be "Polite" (or "Politte" with two t's?).
I found the birth of Polite's (as I will now refer to him) son P William Villette on the 1911 Census where it is shown as "Princess Street, London". With the help of other users here, I now believe this to have been a Princess Street in Haymarket, London. This certainly fits with the fact that he was baptised in Soho and that Polite Villette and Rebecca Hull were married at St James, Westminster. It's all the same area, so it does fit well.
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Could be Menton? Near Nice.
Near Italian border.
We seem now to have two threads so which one to reply to?
Also Polette could be Pallet? Lots of Pallet surnames in France.
Maybe a marriage between a male Villette and a female Pallet ? Wife's surname then used as first name for son?
All is possible.
Keep all possibilities in mind when searching.
Someone else said there is a record of a Polite Villette arriving to the UK from Italy in the 1850s. If he was from Menton near the border with Italy - this perhaps explains why the record shows him (if this is indeed him) as having arrived from Italy as opposed to France?
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We seem now to have two threads so which one to reply to?
Sorry for any confusion. The original thread was about the birthplace of P*l*te [middle name William] Villette jnr ca 1859 on the beginners board, but after a while became more about the birthplace of P*l*te his father definitely in France, so I suggested a new thread was started on the Europe board as I thought there might be experts in French records [which you certainly seem to be] who would be more likely to notice the thread here.
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His name was recorded as Polete at marriage, but he signed as below:
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Yes , it could be Menton, I go and search there.
Familysearch gives PW Villette aka Pullett William Villett born 1 feb 1858 (parents not married yet), christened 27 feb 1859 , one year later.
So PW Villette could be found as PW Hull.
I asked if someone found him on Free BMD or GRO because I didn't (nor Villette nor Hull), but maybe I did not the search correctly.
Hello Josey, glad to hear you too, don't hesitate to contact me if you think i could help on a thread . If the title is not clear about french origins , I don't read the posts.
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His name was recorded as Polete at marriage, but he signed as below:
Well, I am not sure , I see a point above the O , which could be the misplaced point of the I in Polite . I don't read Polette . But it is not really important because if we find him in France we will know his correct firstname and if we don't there are only two possibilities .
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Recorded name on his marriage:
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Yes , it could be Menton, I go and search there.
Familysearch gives PW Villette aka Pullett William Villett born 1 feb 1858 (parents not married yet), christened 27 feb 1859 , one year later.
So PW Villette could be found as PW Hull.
I asked if someone found him on Free BMD or GRO because I didn't (nor Villette nor Hull), but maybe I did not the search correctly.
Hello Josey, glad to hear you too, don't hesitate to contact me if you think i could help on a thread . If the title is not clear about french origins , I don't read the posts.
Hi joger, sorry for the title not containing a clear indication that the post would be France-related. That is entirely my fault.
Going by the image of the marriage record Chempat has posted, it looks like he signed as "Politte Villette" on his marriage to Rebecca Hull in 1858. So I think you are right that his name was "Polite" but spelt with doube "t" as opposed to one?
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Recorded name on his marriage:
And this looks like "Polete" and not "Politte" as appears on the other image we have. Why would this be so? I'm wondering if he was extremely illiterate? Then again, he was employed as a tailor, so how likely is it that a tailor would be illiterate in those days?
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Recorded name on his marriage:
Does this say "null" underneath age? If we had his age here, that would make researching records in France somewhat easier.
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Familysearch gives PW Villette aka Pullett William Villett born 1 feb 1858 (parents not married yet), christened 27 feb 1859 , one year later. So PW Villette could be found as PW Hull.
I also looked under 'male' but could not find.
And this looks like "Polete" and not "Politte" as appears on the marriage record. Why would this be so? I'm wondering if he was extremely illiterate? Then again, he was employed as a tailor, so how likely is it that a tailor would be illiterate in those days?
The marriage party would have been unlikely to have read the register entry or seen how the name was spelled in other documents though he could obviously write his name when required. But spelling - as pointed out else where- had not been standardised as we expect it to be today, so many variations, even by the same person, were possible.
I think we should go with joger as to what were likely names in France at that time.
No the age says 'Full' which means over 21.
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No, it says full (of age) .
Added: Sorry, too late.
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Recorded name on his marriage:
This has been written by the civil servant, or whatsoever, not by your ancestor . There were many mistakes , particularly with foreign names.
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His name was recorded as Polete at marriage, but he signed as below:
This is your ancestor's writing . He is not illiterate , but his writing is not very assured, he obviously could write his name , but he may make mistakes writing it . I saw hundreds of french signatures in marriage act with mistakes in the spelling , and the same person could write his name differently in different acts.
The birth act , written by a civil servant should be more precise , if we find it.
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Recorded name on his marriage:
This has been written by the public officer , or whatsoever, not by your ancestor . There were many mistakes , particularly with foreign names.
I can see the difference in the handwriting between the public officer and my great-great-great grandfather - I don't like saying it, but the public officer's handwriting looks much better!
Yes, I can imagine there were a lot of mistakes when it came to writing down foreign names. You know, I do wonder how much English my great-great-great grandfather could speak, if any at all? And if he had a strong French accent, this could have been "heard" incorrectly by the person writing the official record on his marriage certificate.
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I had a look at the second Meudon (near Vannes in Brittany)ad., The documents ae to be found in Vannes (on line ) , because the hamlet was part of Vannes. No Villettes , too bad.
Menton, is much bigger , many more acts , and unfortunately no names in the pargins , no capital letters for the names , I'll try to read as much as i can .I'll let you know.
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For info. , baptism in 1859:
Would anyone want to be called 'pullet'?
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His name was recorded as Polete at marriage, but he signed as below:
This is your ancestor's writing . He is not illiterate , but his writing is not very assured, he obviously could write his name , but he may make mistakes writing it . I saw hundreds of french signatures in marriage act with mistakes in the spelling , and the same person could write his name differently in different acts.
The birth act , written by a civil servant should be more precise , if we find it.
Okay, thank you. Yes, sorry, I knew he wasn't illiterate (given that he had been able to sign his name on the marriage) - what I meant was, I do wonder if he just couldn't write very well. But then you've explained that not everyone wrote their name down the same way every time and also Josey has explained that, at the time, there was no standardised spelling.
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Recorded name on his marriage:
This has been written by the public officer , or whatsoever, not by your ancestor . There were many mistakes , particularly with foreign names.
Exactly . I still ask if you found PW Villette 's birth act , Free BMD of GRO? not only Family search.
I can see the difference in the handwriting between the public officer and my great-great-great grandfather - I don't like saying it, but the public officer's handwriting looks much better!
Yes, I can imagine there were a lot of mistakes when it came to writing down foreign names. You know, I do wonder how much English my great-great-great grandfather could speak, if any at all? And if he had a strong French accent, this could have been "heard" incorrectly by the person writing the official record on his marriage certificate.
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I had a look at the second Meudon (near Vannes in Brittany)ad., The documents ae to be found in Vannes (on line ) , because the hamlet was part of Vannes. No Villettes , too bad.
Menton, is much bigger , many more acts , and unfortunately no names in the pargins , no capital letters for the names , I'll try to read as much as i can .I'll let you know.
Thank you, Joger. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.
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Try the name hippolite as his first name.
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Good to have that baptism entry chempat; and good stuff joger [and lola] who seems to be able to access French records. I think they will crack it.
OOOH, inspired, creasegirl.
ADDED: Just to add, joger, in case you hadn't seen it that we think P*l*t* may have had a brother Charles born ca 1821 - 23.
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I have valets in my tree who lived in London but were swiss french from lausanne. Dont think any relation to your villettes but I searched through lots of different spellings to discount people.
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Good to have that baptism entry chempat; and good stuff joger [and lola] who seems to be able to access French records. I think they will crack it.
OOOH, inspired, creasegirl.
Fingers crossed, Josey. Yes, they have all been so helpful and shown so much kindness by devoting so much time to helping with this frustrating case. I value them being here very much.
What strikes me about the baptism of P William Villette is that he wasn't baptised until a year after his birth. So we now know from this baptism record posted by Chempat, that William Villette was born in 1858 and baptised a year later in 1859. I thought baptisms normally took place between a few days to a few weeks...maybe a couple months after birth at very most.
@Joger - I found the official handwritten 1911 Census record (an image which I downloaded) containing the birthplace of P William Villette (Polite and Rebecca's son) - Princess Street, London. It was on a free site, either FamilySearch or some other site, I don't remember exactly, as I have looked on so many of them.
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This was posted on the other thread, for a more interesting birthplace:
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This was posted on the other thread, for a more interesting birthplace:
For me, the most interesting thing here is that this Charles Villette is said to be employed as a tailor. Polite Villette was also a tailor. If this Charles is the same Charles Villette who we think is probably the (older?) brother of Polite Villette, then this maybe suggests that they were a family of tailors or maybe it was a family business? Interesting that both were tailors.
Charles Villette (Senior?) - who is named as Polite Villette's father on his marriage to Rebecca Hull, is said to have been a "labourer", however.
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Could be Menton? Near Nice.
Near Italian border.
We seem now to have two threads so which one to reply to?
Also Polette could be Pallet? Lots of Pallet surnames in France.
Maybe a marriage between a male Villette and a female Pallet ? Wife's surname then used as first name for son?
All is possible.
Keep all possibilities in mind when searching.
Someone else said there is a record of a Polite Villette arriving to the UK from Italy in the 1850s. If he was from Menton near the border with Italy - this perhaps explains why the record shows him (if this is indeed him) as having arrived from Italy as opposed to France?
If Polite is from Menton, this area of France wasn't part of France until 1859 following the second Italian war of independence/Austro-Sardinian war following a Franco-Sardinian military alliance against Austria, which could explain why it shows him arriving from Italy?
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Ah, very useful, Gan Yam thank you.
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On the Charles villette birth record I think it is montreuil that it says.
https://www.informationfrance.com/montreuil-sur-mer/
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It just occurred to me - I'll have to go back to the original thread to see if the Villette arriving to the UK from Italy was Polite or Charles.
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Chempat posted this in the original thread:
Amy is a witness on Polette's marriage, I think (just saw your post), other witness could have been Charles.
On the Alien's list the names are meant to be Christian and Surnames, most just have surnames recorded, the one above this looks like a Christian Name (Charles Frederick) so putting this:
Polette
Port of Arrival: Newhaven, England
Arrival Date: 4 June 1856 Port of Departure: Dieppe, France Ship: Paris
Country of Origin/Native of: Italy
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Chempat posted this in the original thread:
Amy is a witness on Polette's marriage, I think (just saw your post), other witness could have been Charles.
On the Alien's list the names are meant to be Christian and Surnames, most just have surnames recorded, the one above this looks like a Christian Name (Charles Frederick) so putting this:
Polette
Port of Arrival: Newhaven, England
Arrival Date: 4 June 1856 Port of Departure: Dieppe, France Ship: Paris
Country of Origin/Native of: Italy
I may be interpreting this information incorrectly, but am I right in saying this doesn't actually say he came to the UK from Italy - rather, that he came from France. The ship's name was the "Paris" and it departed Dieppe and arrived in Newhaven on 4 June 1856?
I don't think "Country of Origin" here means the ship's country of origin/where the ship set sail from on its journey (that its journey started from Italy and went from there on to Dieppe, France before arriving in Newhaven, UK). I think rather it means Polite Villette's nationality was Italian? As it also says "native of" next to "country of origin". So we are perhaps wrong to say he made his journey from Italy.
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Distribution of names http://nomdefamille.eu/en/
Try "villette"
Then change country to Italy and repeat "villette".
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Chempat posted this in the original thread:
Amy is a witness on Polette's marriage, I think (just saw your post), other witness could have been Charles.
On the Alien's list the names are meant to be Christian and Surnames, most just have surnames recorded, the one above this looks like a Christian Name (Charles Frederick) so putting this:
Polette
Port of Arrival: Newhaven, England
Arrival Date: 4 June 1856 Port of Departure: Dieppe, France Ship: Paris
Country of Origin/Native of: Italy
I may be interpreting this information incorrectly, but am I right in saying this doesn't actually say he came to the UK from Italy - rather, that he came from France. The ship's name was the "Paris" and it departed Dieppe and arrived in Newhaven on 4 June 1856?
I don't think "Country of Origin" here means the ship's country of origin/where the ship set sail from on its journey (that its journey started from Italy and went from there on to Dieppe, France before arriving in Newhaven, UK). I think rather it means Polite Villette's nationality was Italian? As it also says "native of" next to "country of origin". So we are perhaps wrong to say he made his journey from Italy.
That kind of fits with him possibly being from Menton. As a border town, he could be of French or Italian, the area had moved back and forth across the border lots of time in the previous 300 years. It was "Italian" (Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia) at that point in time (1814-1859), but the Valletti family may have been French, but their country of origin/native of at that time was Italy. All speculation of course!!
(eg:Guiseppe Garibaldi the Italian general and nationalist was born in Nice in 1807, Nice area was French at this point (1792 - 1814), but he had an Italian name and identified as Italian! I suppose technically he was French, until 1814 anyway! ::) )
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Chempat posted this in the original thread:
Amy is a witness on Polette's marriage, I think (just saw your post), other witness could have been Charles.
On the Alien's list the names are meant to be Christian and Surnames, most just have surnames recorded, the one above this looks like a Christian Name (Charles Frederick) so putting this:
Polette
Port of Arrival: Newhaven, England
Arrival Date: 4 June 1856 Port of Departure: Dieppe, France Ship: Paris
Country of Origin/Native of: Italy
I may be interpreting this information incorrectly, but am I right in saying this doesn't actually say he came to the UK from Italy - rather, that he came from France. The ship's name was the "Paris" and it departed Dieppe and arrived in Newhaven on 4 June 1856?
I don't think "Country of Origin" here means the ship's country of origin/where the ship set sail from on its journey (that its journey started from Italy and went from there on to Dieppe, France before arriving in Newhaven, UK). I think rather it means Polite Villette's nationality was Italian? As it also says "native of" next to "country of origin". So we are perhaps wrong to say he made his journey from Italy.
That kind of fits with him possibly being from Menton. As a border town, he could be of French or Italian, the area had moved back and forth across the border lots of time in the previous 300 years. It was "Italian" (Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia) at that point in time (1814-1859), but the Valletti family may have been French, but their country of origin/native of at that time was Italy. All speculation of course!!
(eg:Guiseppe Garibaldi the Italian general and nationalist was born in Nice in 1807, Nice area was French at this point (1792 - 1814), but he had an Italian name and identified as Italian! I suppose technically he was French, until 1814 anyway! ::) )
So interesting! I was watching a video about the Austro-Sardinian War (Second War of Italian Independence) on YouTube just now because of a previous poster mentioning that Menton was at this time a part of Italy. The video mentions Garibaldi.
Things are coming together on my three-times great grandfather Polite Villette - I'm beginning to get a much clearer picture and hopefully soon we have cracked this and ultimately have the answer as to where he was born or was from at least.
As it stands, we think he was probably from Menton and was likely born in or around the 1820s or 1830s (considering that he was of "full age" when he married Rebecca Hull in the year 1858).
ADDED: If he was from Menton, I wonder why he would travel from Dieppe in France as opposed to somewhere from his own country (the then Kingdom of Sardinia?) or Italy? The distance is very huge between Menton and Dieppe - I checked and it's over 700 miles.
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The records (naissance, mariage, deces) for the commune of Menton, Departement Alpes-Maritimes are on line. Unfortunately, no "Tables Decennales" exist for the period you are interested in. These tables are 10 year summaries, usually in alphabetical surname order, which can greatly assist searching.
Else it's a matter of working through entry by entry, year by year. These records are not indexed/not searchable by surname.
I started to check but haven't had a lot of time - and its a slog. The 1881 Census has 60 yr old Charles - looking for a baptism around 1821?. I reckon there are about 100 "naissances" annually. .
I can direct you to the site?
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Yes, please do.
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http://www.basesdocumentaires-cg06.fr/archives/indexEC.php
Sending this URL as a starter - hoping it will deliver the search screen. Fingers crossed!
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http://basesdocumentaires-cg06.fr/archives/indexEC.php
Sending this URL as a starter - hoping it will deliver the search screen. Fingers crossed!
Argh, the link doesn't work for me :(
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http://basesdocumentaires-cg06.fr/archives/indexEC.php
Sending this URL as a starter - hoping it will deliver the search screen. Fingers crossed!
Argh, the link doesn't work for me :(
Nor me either - going to have to post instructions to navigate your way there. Expect a PM
regards
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The link above now active
On search screen use drop down "Choississez commune" to select MENTON
Click on "Naissance"
Put 1821 in each date box
Click on "Lancer la recherche"
Delivers naissances 1814-1823 (this is where I miss the 10 year tables which summarise the period).
Click on Afficher
Use slider bar to get to year you want to begin searching.
How's your French re dates?
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How's your French re dates?
Not good at all, but I'm sure an online dictionary will help :)
Thank you.
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Each entry follows a standard format - identifies the year, date, about 3 lines of blurb and then names begin to appear - but they are not easy to make out.
pob lwc/good luck
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"ADDED: If he was from Menton, I wonder why he would travel from Dieppe in France as opposed to somewhere from his own country (the then Kingdom of Sardinia?) or Italy? The distance is very huge between Menton and Dieppe - I checked and it's over 700 miles."
He may well have considered France as "his own country" rather than the Kingdom of Sardinia, just like Garibaldi thought the opposite. (I've travelled by train from Nice to Ventimigilia first station across the Italian border (by accident) and you really wouldn't know you'd crossed a border!! so maybe it wasn't such a big deal for most people only those who were more politically minded.)
There could be a few reasons why he got the boat from Dieppe:
He could have moved to a different part of France initially before moving onto England.
He could have got a boat from Nice? to Dieppe and then another boat to England, although this would be a long journey because you would have go around Spain and Portugal, and the bay of Biscay to get to Dieppe.
Its seems that the railways may have arrived in Nice by the 1850s. There is are a reference to almost 80000 men and 5000 horse being transported by train from Paris, to the "Mediterranean or to the frontiers of the Kingdom of Sardinia" for the Austro-Sardinian War, between 20th and 30th April 1859. That's a lot of people in 10 days, so it would appear that it is reasonable journey time. He could have travelled by train from Nice? or maybe Marseille? to Paris and then onto Dieppe for the crossing to England. I suspect this was the quicker and cheaper method, (other than walking the distance of course).
People were much more mobile, even the poorer people, during this time than we tend to think. They were also travelling to America and Australia, so people probably weren't phased by long journeys, in return for the promise of a better life in England or in America or Australia. You never know, maybe wherever he came from in France, that England was only meant to be a stop off, but ended up staying.
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This was posted on the other thread, for a more interesting birthplace:
I saw it , can we have a larger image , in order to see what's under the name of the town?
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@hanes teulu - I sent you a private message but think you've missed it - the link still won't work for me.
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@Gan Yam - thanks for your info. It certainly appears humans have always been at the very least somewhat mobile throughout the entire existence of our race - travelling long distances and moving around isn't anything new that has come about only in the last century. We tend to think of it that way - that ordinary people in centuries gone by didn't or even weren't able to move about - but we are totally wrong.
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As regards a larger image to show what is under the name of the town, there is no further information. The next piece of writing is from the next person on the list who comes from Geneva. His writing slopes up.
What may be of interest is that the entries on the page appear to have been individually done, so that could be the actual Villette, whichever he is, who has written it.
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Working on creasegirl's suggestion for a Hyppolite (who is a tailor)
Ancestry transcription
Lyppolite Villette
Port of Arrival: London, England
Arrival Date: 4th July 1859
Port of Departure: Boulogne, France
Ship: Albion
Country of Origin/Native of: Moutrent
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Working on creasegirl's suggestion for a Hyppolite
It's a possibility, I suppose :) I still cannot access this link (that sounded quite promising) which hanes teulu. So frustrating >:( :(
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Working on creasegirl's suggestion for a Hyppolite (who is a tailor)
Ancestry transcription
Lyppolite Villette
Port of Arrival: London, England
Arrival Date: 4th July 1859
Port of Departure: Boulogne, France
Ship: Albion
Country of Origin/Native of: Moutrent
Looking at this, for a moment, I thought that you'd finally cracked it - but the date doesn't fit. Polite/Polette (etc) Villette married Rebecca Hull in 1858 I think and also their son P William Villette was born in 1858, too.
ADDED: Other than the date, everything else fits - he's even a tailor! :/
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Working on creasegirl's suggestion for a Hyppolite
It's a possibility, I suppose :) I still cannot access this link (that sounded quite promising) which hanes teulu. So frustrating >:( :(
Don't quite understand. Why haven't you found the link - I posted a correction (PM) and amended my first URL.
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There is no reason though that he didn't go back and forward to europe at different times so he could have been over in 1857. It only showing that journey.
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Working on creasegirl's suggestion for a Hyppolite
It's a possibility, I suppose :) I still cannot access this link (that sounded quite promising) which hanes teulu. So frustrating >:( :(
Don't quite understand. Why haven't you found the link - I posted a correction (PM) and amended my first URL.
Corrected link in PM still doesn't work for some reason.
Would you be so kind as to re-send it in a fresh PM?
Thank you :)
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Hyppolite VILLETTE, tailor , and I think it could be Montreuil. (miswritten , without the i)
There are several Montreuil in France.
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https://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=ag140d9k8ovfkn0v047b9j2h21&id=241299880&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299880#
slide 54/1317
I found a Charles VILLETTE son of Charles VILLETTE, 44 years' old ,17 april 1821, in Montreuil sur mer , Pas-de-Calais.
Father was a soldier from Bordeaux, married the mother in 1824, the mother was Augustine AUGIAS , 25 years'old.
I go on to find Hyppolite .
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joger - This is encouraging. If you're saying that the son, Charles, was born in 1821 that fits with the Charles (employed as a tailor) who came to England with wife Amy and daughter Camile - as I think he too was born in the 1820s, I think 1821. It does seem our hunch that this Charles (born in 1820s) being a much older brother of Polite Villette is proving to be correct.
ADDED: Joger - For some reason, the French links don't open up for me on my laptop. I'm not sure why.
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http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=ag140d9k8ovfkn0v047b9j2h21&id=241299880&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299880
This one works.
slide 54
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http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=ag140d9k8ovfkn0v047b9j2h21&id=241299917&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299917
marriage Charles VILLETTE
slide 171
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http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=ag140d9k8ovfkn0v047b9j2h21&id=241299880&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299880
This one works.
slide 54
Thanks. Just had a look. I wish I could read the language!
We're really onto it now. The Charles Villette born in 1821 in Montreul (son of a soldier Charles Villette from Bordeaux who was aged 44 in 1821?) must surely be the same Charles Villette born in 1821 in Montreul who was residing in Westminster by the 1860s with wife Amy and daughter Camile.
Charles and Amy Villette were witnesses at the wedding of Polite Villette and Rebecca Hull in Westminster in 1858. While not impossible, it's extremely unlikely this is a different Charles. And this must have been Polite's older brother.
So joger seems to have found a record in France with details of Charles Villette the father of Polite, but we cannot find Polite himself as of yet.
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http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=ag140d9k8ovfkn0v047b9j2h21&id=241299917&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299917
marriage Charles VILLETTE
slide 171
Thanks. Which slide number? :)
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171
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I'll translate them tomorrow , now I have to go.
Notice that the bride's name is a little different from the name at Charles junior's birth. It happened sometimes when the parents were not married , they lied a little on the names.
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I'll translate them tomorrow , now I have to go.
Notice that the bride's name is a little different from the name at Charles junior's birth. It happened sometimes when the parents were not married , they lied a little on the names.
Thanks, joger. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help with this. We're definitely getting there. Polite/Polette/Hyppolite Villette seems to have anticipated that I'd come looking for him over a century and a half later and has succeeded in deliberately avoiding the records! Hahaha.
Added: Charles junior seems to have died in or around 1903 in St James, Westminster, London.
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Where we're currently at (sorry if I don't have exact dates for everything, but it's late and I really do need to start writing them down or saving them to a Word doc!):
Chempat found a Hyppolite Villette from Montruel.
Joger finds a Charles Villette Junior and Senior from the same place (Montreul).
Charles Villette is recorded on Polite (Hyppolite?) Villette's marriage to Rebecca Hull as a witness along with an Amy Villette? Marriage in St James, Westminster.
Charles Senior is recorded as Polite's father on this record.
Charles and Amy Villette, along with a daughter Camile, come to the UK from France in the 1850s. They reside in St James, Westminster.
(Polite Villette...perhaps as Hypolitte Villette, also comes to UK around the same period).
Both Charles and Polite are tailors.
Charles dies around 1903 in St James, Westminster.
No records found as of yet for Polite's birth or death. Certainly, these records don't exist in the UK, presumably because both these events took place in France.
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Here we are :
http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=94np03iuj8slhtbtvpig64bto6&id=241299880&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299880#
slide337/1317
Hyppolite Alexandre 's birth 11 may 1829 in MONTREUIL (nowadays Montreuil sur Mer).
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http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=94np03iuj8slhtbtvpig64bto6&id=241299880&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299880#
slide 421
Sister Célestine Françoise 10 december 1831
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http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=94np03iuj8slhtbtvpig64bto6&id=241299880&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299880#
slide 293
twins sisters 14 feb 1828 Alexandrine and Augustine
ADDED: Augustine died 20 feb 1828, Alexandrine died 7 march 1828
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still born boy 20 jan 1827
http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=94np03iuj8slhtbtvpig64bto6&id=241299950&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299950#
slide 28
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http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=94np03iuj8slhtbtvpig64bto6&id=241299950&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299950#
slide 740
Death of Celestine 20 june 1852, born in Dunkerque
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http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=94np03iuj8slhtbtvpig64bto6&id=241299950&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299950#
slide 964
Hyppolite Alexandre's death , single,32, son of Charles Villette , retired ,and the late Célestine AUGIAS.
Apparently he did not tell he was married in England.
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http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=94np03iuj8slhtbtvpig64bto6&id=241299950&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299950#
slide 999
Death of Charles VILLETTE senior 21 july 1862 in Montreuil , aged 86 and 9 months, born in Bordeaux , son of the late françois VILLET and Marie Thérèse SERGENT , widow of Célestine Françoise OSIAS
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Bravo Joger! What brilliant work you are doing.
Please, what was the date of Polete’s death?
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28 april 1861 death of Hyppolite Villette
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https://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YToxMDp7czoxMDoidHlwZV9mb25kcyI7czo3OiJhcmtvX2lyIjtzOjg6ImltZ190eXBlIjtzOjM6ImpwZyI7czo0OiJyZWYwIjtzOjI6IjUxIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjM7czo0OiJyZWYyIjtzOjI6IjU5IjtzOjQ6InJlZjMiO3M6MDoiIjtzOjQ6InJlZjQiO3M6MDoiIjtzOjEyOiJpbWFnZV9kZXBhcnQiO3M6NzY6Ii9QQVJDT1VSU0lORElWL0NPTlRST0xFVFJPVVBFL0dSMjFZQy8yMVlDMDA1MVgvU0hER1JfR1JfMjFfWUNfMDA1MVhfMDExMi5KUEciO3M6MTY6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWwiO2I6MTtzOjIxOiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sX21vZGUiO3M6NDoicHJvZCI7fQ==#uielem_move=857.5999755859375%2C73&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=33&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Charles senior 's fiche matricule .
it is written that he was a volonteer , went in the army in 1793, was living in Paris , La Montagne Sainte Genevieve (Left side of the Seine , nowadays quartier Latin ,and 5th arrondissement).
Fought in Vendée , Italy , Iles du Levant.
Was born 15 october 1775 in Bordeaux.
Height : 1,63 meter, grey eyes , married to Thérèse Sergent, Brown hair.
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What was the correct spelling of Charles 's name : VILLET or VILLETTE ?
Both are correct in fact because VILLET in the south of France is pronounced VILLETTE.
In the south his name was written VILLET and pronounced VILLETTE;
In the north ( Pas de calais for example) the name was written VILLETTE.
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https://archives.gironde.fr/ark:/25651/vtaac289ef6b0a65c70/daogrp/0/layout:table/idsearch:RECH_724212a36bd955216c6fde83d92ca9e6#id:170441830?gallery=true&brightness=100.00&contrast=100.00¢er=1263.464,-2199.673&zoom=12&rotation=0.000
n° 990
Baptism of Charles VILLET son of François VILLET , market merchant (marchand forain) of Orléans and Thérèse Sergent , living in Ste Eulalie Parish, godfather Charles LALANE, godmother Therese Catherine JUAN.
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28 april 1861 death of Hyppolite Villette
I asked about Polete's death date because his wife gave birth to a baby named Rebecca on 4 July 1866 in the workhouse and stated that "her husband left her 8 months ago". The baby was baptised in July 1866 as the child of Pullette Villette (tailor). The baby died in August 1866.
BUT ... if Polete had been dead since 1861, this child was certainly not his! Interesting. :o
There are also some other Villette family members that appear in the Middlesex census.
There is Jona Vilette born 1822 - a tailor
There is Emile Villett born 1840 France.
There is Emma Villette born 1829 Montueuil - wife to someone I have not found.
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His death in France in 1861 would explain a few things: Why the last British record we have of him is in 1859 on the occasion of his son William's baptism and also why there is no British death record for him. It also explains why, in the 1861 UK Census, wife Rebecca and son William are shown as having moved to Gretton, Northamptonshire living with Rebecca's brother John Hull - with no mention of (Hyp)polite on the record.
Well done, Joger. Your hard work does now appear to have paid off. Thank you for the slides. Is there any more info on (Hyp)polite Villette on the slide in which is mentioned? Anything about him being a tailor?
I agree with Neale1961, the only confusing thing now is the 1866 workhouse record.
Added: Someone further back in this post did say, I think, that in the 1871 Census Rebecca is stated as a "widow". Although she was not living with her brother John Hull and son William Villette at this time.
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Thank you creasgirl for suggesting that Polette could have been "Hyppolite" and thank you chempat for the record of arrival in 1859, which does suggest some going back and forth between the UK and France (being from Montreuil, in the extreme north of France, this wouldn't have been too arduous). Would be interesting to see the initial arrival if we could find it (which would be prior to February 1858 which is when his son William was born).
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Rebecca, status married, born Gretton,can be found in 1861 with Pullette W, born 1858, but no sign of Polite (etc) Villitte, husband (name from marr cert). On the 1871 Census she is a widow, without Pullette W, born 1858. Her relationship to head of household is not given.
So, where is Polite in 1861?. Cannot find a death between 1858-1871.
Hanes teulu - you couldn't find his death because it seems he died back in his native Montreuil-sur-Mer in April 1861 (the same month the 1861 UK Census was taken, as it happens).
I think this is why Rebecca and William are in Gretton on the 1861 Census - (Hyp)polite has gone back to France (and then died there very shortly after) - rather than stay in London and struggle to support herself and her young son William without (Hyp)polite, they go to stay in Gretton (where Rebecca is originally from) with her brother John.
The pieces all seem to have come together now and we have found (Hyp)polite's birth and death records in France - it's just this damn workhouse record proving to be a spanner in the works!
Joger - do you have anything about Charles junior's son Camille Villette or his wife Amy Villette on these slides? Charles Jr and Amy were witnesses at (Hyp)polite's wedding to Rebecca Hull in 1858.
In the original thread in the beginner's forum, Josey posted what I think is the 1861 UK workhouse record of the entire family.
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Célestine Osias (Ausias), Hyppolite's mother, died 20 june 1852, said to be 62 , wife of Charles Villette (retired soldier ),in their house 205 rue St Pierre , Montreuil (sur- Mer , Pas de calais) , daughter of the late François Osias and the late Françoise Preniel ?(Praniel ?)
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Hippolyte died 6 PM ,28 april 1861 in the Hotel Dieu (hospital) of Montreuil , 32, tailor , living in Montreuil, single.
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Charles Villette ( written Villet ) died 21 july 1862 in the Hotel Dieu of Montreuil , 1 PM.
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His death in France in 1861 would explain a few things: Why the last British record we have of him is in 1859 on the occasion of his son William's baptism and also why there is no British death record for him. It also explains why, in the 1861 UK Census, wife Rebecca and son William are shown as having moved to Gretton, Northamptonshire living with Rebecca's brother John Hull - with no mention of (Hyp)polite on the record.
Well done, Joger. Your hard work does now appear to have paid off. Thank you for the slides. Is there any more info on (Hyp)polite Villette on the slide in which is mentioned? Anything about him being a tailor?
I agree with Neale1961, the only confusing thing now is the 1866 workhouse record.
Added: Someone further back in this post did say, I think, that in the 1871 Census Rebecca is stated as a "widow". Although she was not living with her brother John Hull and son William Villette at this time.
As I said in a preceding post , it is written that he was a tailor.
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Slide 172 (not 171) marriage Charles and Celestine
http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=94np03iuj8slhtbtvpig64bto6&id=241299917&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299917
Charles Villet , 48 years and 4 month's old , soldier in the 7th regiment of fusilliers , in garrison in Montreuil, born in in Bordeaux (Gironde) on the 17 th of october 1775 , usually living in Paris, 12 th arrondissement, son of the late François Villet ,who died about 40 years ago in a foreign country unknown to the groom and the late marie Therese SERGENT who died in Paris 2 februarary 1789
and Célestine Françoise OSIAS, dressmaker, 33 years old and 3 months, born in Dunkerque 6 june 1790, living in Montreuil,daughter of the late François OSIAS who died in Montreuil 13 april 1804 and the late François PRENIER who died in Montreuil 15 april 1808.
Just after having been said married , they recognise having had a boy called Charles VILLETTE , registered in 1821 17 april.
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http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=94np03iuj8slhtbtvpig64bto6&id=241299917&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299917
slide 584 Marriage Charles VILLETTE junior and Aimée AUBOUSSIER (your Amy)
Charles Villette , tailor,32 years'old and 2 months living in Montreuil where he was born 16 april 1821, son of Charles Villette , retired soldier and Augustine AUGIAS and miss Aimée Henriette AUBOUSSIER,24, "bordeuse" (Bordeuse :Ouvrière qui assurait la finition et parfois la décoration des souliers. Worker who did the finish or decoration of shoes) born in Montreuil 18 may 1827 daughter of Claude Henry AUBUSSIER, mason, and Gabrielle Elisabeth GROUX, living in Montreuil.
No marriage contract.
ADDED: marriage 1 july 1851 in Montreuil
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Something I suppose we'll never know the answer to is why he is recorded as being single at the time of his death.
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http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=94np03iuj8slhtbtvpig64bto6&id=241299917&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299917
slide 584 Marriage Charles VILLETTE junior and Aimée AUBOUSSIER (your Amy)
Thanks, Joger. This clarifies that the Hyppolite Villette you have found is indeed my great-great-great grandfather. Charles and Amy (Aimée) Villette - Hyppolite's brother and sister-in-law who were witnesses at his wedding to Rebecca Hull.
I honestly can't thank you enough for your hard work. :)
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Something I suppose we'll never know the answer to is why he is recorded as being single at the time of his death.
The death was registered by 2 persons , their relation with Hippolyte is not mentionned ( neighbours ? ) May be they did not kow that Hippolyte was married , or he did not mention that he married in England .
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Why is the surname written sometimes Villet or Villette in the north ? It is written VILLET (as it is written in the south ) when they had to show a copy of their birth certificate (for a marriage ).
It is written Villette when they did not have to show a copy of their birth certificate ( for the birth of a child ).
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Why is the surname written sometimes Villet or Villette in the north ? It is written VILLET (as it is written in the south ) when they had to show a copy of their birth certificate (for a marriage ).
It is written Villette when they did not have to show a copy of their birth certificate ( for the birth of a child ).
Joger, do you have any idea why he would have signed his marriage as "Politte" and not the full "Hyppolitte"? Is it just the whole no standardisation back then thing?
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I wondered if you had his signature somewhere. Since the beginning I thought Hippolyte could be his name and Politte his nickname, or a short version of his name. But you seemed to insist on Polette (very unprobable for a boy , I should say impossible ) or Politte (like the end of Hippolyte in French), still , after having found that Polite was a given first name for boys ( very very rarely), I thought "why not".
In all the numerous registers I read I never saw a person using his nickname to sign .
So : there are 3 possibilities
- His name is really Hippolyte (or Hyppolite ), as written in his birth certificate, but he did not like it and he adopted Politte (probably his nickname in the family) in England
- His name is really Hippolyte but he adopted his nickname when he married to "cover his tracks"
- His parents gave him the name Polite but the civil servant wrote Hyppolite on the certificate (might have been slightly deaf, or might have insisted on writing Hyppolite because he did not know the name Polite (very very rare) and did not accept it , Hyppolite would have been a reasonable choice ). In french Polite and Hippolyte sound the same.
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I wondered if you had his signature somewhere.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=824693.msg6881045#msg6881045
(post no. 20) Signatures from the parish marriage register in 1858, Signed as 'Polette' Villette when he married Rebecca Hull
Boo
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Oh, I forgot that . It doesn't change anything for me though.
If one thinks he signed Polette the hypothesis of covering tracks is even stronger .
If one reads Politte the 3 hypothesis I made are still valid.
He was registered as Hyppolite at his birth , no doubt about that.
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Joger: the document showing his arrival to the UK in 1859 (it seems he did some back and forth between UK and France), shows that he signed as "Hyppolite". I've posted this image below. So yeah, it's an absolute fact that his birth name was "Hyppolite" (I mean, it's even on the slides you linked us up to :) )
Would be good to find the initial arrival to the UK from the Alien's entry records , but I don't have access to them.
Added: I thought someone further back in the thread had posted the original entry record details but not with an image - but now can't find the post.
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I found the birth of a boy called Charles Camille born 24 june 1852 in Montreuil, son of Charles and Aimée , 327 Grande Rue in Montreuil
http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=g56ibr0mjpsnudfaqmoh7m7tq7&id=241299880&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299880
Slide 1048
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I found the birth of a boy called Charles Camille born 24 june 1852 in Montreuil, son of Charles and Aimée , 327 Grande Rue in Montreuil
http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=g56ibr0mjpsnudfaqmoh7m7tq7&id=241299880&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299880
Slide 1048
The 1891 Census has Camille as a "diamond mounter".
Joger - do the slides on Hyppolite have any more info about him, or is it strictly his birth and death details?
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Birth details
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You are genius, joger & as we say 'like a dog with a bone' - you never give up!!
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You are genius, joger & as we say 'like a dog with a bone' - you never give up!!
Agreed. Joger has been brilliant. But then, you all have.
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- His parents gave him the name Polite but the civil servant wrote Hyppolite on the certificate (might have been slightly deaf, or might have insisted on writing Hyppolite because he did not know the name Polite (very very rare) and did not accept it , Hyppolite would have been a reasonable choice ). In french Polite and Hippolyte sound the same.
Maybe he had to be given with the full version of the name rather than a nickname or shorten version to comply with Napolean's 1803 law restricting the names that could be given to babies to that of Saints name and names from ancient history. I assume that Hyppolite fell into the latter group!
Added: The law was eventually rescinded in 1993
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You are genius, joger & as we say 'like a dog with a bone' - you never give up!!
Thanks josey , yes I like this image , will try to find an "avatar" for it. avatar is what we call the image under the name in a forum , what do you call this ?
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You are genius, joger & as we say 'like a dog with a bone' - you never give up!!
Thanks josey , yes I like this image , will try to find an "avatar" for it. avatar is what we call the image under the name in a forum , what do you call this ?
We also call it an avatar :)
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I have been told by a better French speaker than me that you use the same expression 'préoccupé comme un chien avec un os' - is that true?
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The appropriate expression is "comme un chien à son os".
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Brilliant, thank you - I will add that to my knowledge of French idioms!
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Found Marie Thérèse SERGENT's death certificate
http://archives.paris.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMjAtMDEtMzAiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6NTtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6NDI1NTE7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=0%2C0&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=37&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Slide 27
Unfortunately it is not the original , only the reconstucted one ( The registers od Paris burnt in a fire in the 19th century).
Parish St Etienne DU MONT ( written after DECES), the St Etienne du MONT church is Place ste Geneviève , in the 5th Arrondissement.
See Charles Villette's fiche matricule , we already heard about this area.
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Found Marie Françoise Philberte PRUNIER 's death 15 april 1808 in Montreuil, spouse of Jean François AUGIAS, daughter of the late Jean Marie PRUNIER and the late Marie Françoise RINGAT, 43 rue du Cachot( ?), "dans la ville basse ", in the lower town (of Montreuil).
http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=qkjld0sj6burba2rcv3r8d7870&id=241299933&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299933&vue=683&_tc=1580833365682
slide 772
In the left margin is written marie françoise philberte prunier femme augias .She was 55.
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Death of Jean François AUGIAS 13 april 1814 in Montreuil , 61 years'old.
http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=qkjld0sj6burba2rcv3r8d7870&id=241299933&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299933#
slide 988
Born in Hyères (Var), son of françois AUGIAS and Elisabette DENAND.
I think he could have been a soldier.
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http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=qkjld0sj6burba2rcv3r8d7870&id=241299933&l=2544&h=1321&titre=241299933#
slides 106 and 107
14 november 1752 in HYERES
marriage of François AUGIAS son of Joseph Augias , worker,and the late Claire LANTIER
and Elisabeth DENANS daughter of François , gardener and the late Elisabeth ARDOUVIN
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birth of Jean François AUGIAS 18 november 1853 in HYERES
https://archives.var.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMjAtMDItMDQiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA4NTA7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-173%2C-205&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=96&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
slide 143 right page.
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http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/ark:/64297/56d460da050b1acf7a03ea40d7caf417
slide 988
Hello, I think I have found why the links from the Pas de calais archives do not work after a certain time . I did not use the "permalien ".
Let's try and see if it works .
added/ it seems to work now .
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Hi. I too have been trying to figure out my family tree for a few years now and came across this today and it has been a massive help. I am the great great great grandchild of Polette Villette or Hyppolite as it turns out. Happy that I found this thread and thanks to everyone one here I have managed to fill that gap! :)