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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: jillruss on Sunday 26 January 20 17:52 GMT (UK)
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I'm trying to find a possible DNA match for the natural father of my 3xgreat grandfather William Stubbs. I've looked from the angle of surname and placename (Ightfield in Shrops) without any success. I have a possible candidate - the man she eventually married - but that was a good 8 years later so probably unlikely.
I do realise that its perfectly possible that there isn't yet anyone who's tested who's a match.
I thought I'd take a look at this painter tool that some of you seem to swear by, but it doesn't give any numbers at all for 3xgreat grandparents. This can't be because there's no chance of a match as I've found matches further back than that generation.
Is there an average number? Or, if so, is it so low that - basically - the match could be anywhere in the 'lower ranked' matches i.e. a needle in a haystack? Perhaps I'm better off sticking to surnames and placenames?
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It's certainly not needle in a haystack. The chances get slimmer the farther back you go but 3x/4x-great-grandparent is absolutely reasonable. What you need to do is begin to assemble a group of DNA matches that you can absolutely confirm to be descendants of the 3x-great-grandparents. You're then looking for others that match these people within that group. If the matches are through a site that allows you to see segment data then you need to enter the segment data into dnapainter and begin to look for triangulating matches. Say a descendant of your 3x-great-grandparents matches you at a specific portion of chromosome 1 - someone else who matches you with a segment that overlaps that first segment but does not descend from your same 3x-great-grandparents is likely related to either one of them somewhere upstream (i.e. 4x, 5x, etc.)
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I thought I'd take a look at this painter tool that some of you seem to swear by, but it doesn't give any numbers at all for 3xgreat grandparents. This can't be because there's no chance of a match as I've found matches further back than that generation.
Is there an average number? Or, if so, is it so low that - basically - the match could be anywhere in the 'lower ranked' matches i.e. a needle in a haystack? Perhaps I'm better off sticking to surnames and placenames?
If you are talking about DNApainter, it gives average, low, and high self reported values for as far distant as 8C.
As these are self reported by those who have undertaken DNA tests, and there are no rules as to how submitters have come to this conclusion, this is not based on science (not suggesting that values are falsified, but is there proof positive that the relationship is not only correct but DNA is inherited from this common ancestor, rather than another one?) However, certainly for the closer relationships, it appears to have a high degree of accuracy.
You would be looking for potential 4th/5th cousins or thereabouts (descendants of your 3G grandfather could be half fourth cousins, descendants from his siblings could be full 5th cousins) On DNApainter 4th cousins gives the value of 35 average, low 0 and high 137. A high proportion of 4th cousins will not show as a DNA match.
Try experimenting with DNApainter and your known DNA connections. Get a feel for how it works.
Try typing in 35 cMs - you should see the following box, with the chart underneath highlighting likely relationships -
51.39% 6C 6C1R 5C 6C2R 4C1R 5C1R 7C Half 3C2R 4C2R 5C2R 7C1R 3C3R 4C3R 5C3R 8C or more distant
18.07% Half 3C 3C1R Half 2C2R 2C3R
17.88% 4C Half 3C1R 3C2R
9.53% 3C Half 2C1R 2C2R Half 1C3R
3.13% Half 1C2R † Half 2C 2C1R 1C3R
~ 0%. ** Half GG-Aunt / Uncle
Hope this helps, you may be talking about a different painter altogether!
Regards Margaret
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I have links to 2 sets of 4th gt grandparents and 3 sets of 3rd gt grandparents - you just need patience as DNA is a waiting game. ;D
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Thanks, all.
Very helpful. yes, I did mean the DNA Painter. I have to admit to being reluctant to trying it but I'll do as you suggest, Margaret, and try experimenting with it.
Jill
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Hello Jill
Re your Bathsheba Boothroyd is the following 1831 George Boothroyd of Honley [in Almondbury], Huddersfield (death at his son's, Solicitor in Stockport) snippet, your family?
Mark
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Mark,
How kind of you to take the time to send me that clip.
George would certainly have been the right age and in the right area to have been Bathsheba's father but there are others. That's the problem I'm facing, quite a few Boothroyds in the area, but, without some kind of documental reference to a birth/baptism/christening for her (or something else before her marriage in 1823), I'm totally at sea!!!
I think it may well be one of those brickwalls that never gets pushed down, but I haven't given up quite yet!!
Thanks so much.
Jill
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Hello Jill
With a name like Bathsheba and no C of E Baptism, I can't help but think ... from a Religious family a Dissenting or Non C of E preacher / follower.
You may have seen the following Rev B. Boothroyd online already ...
Cheltenham Chronicle, Gloucestershire, 22nd September 1836
On the 8th inst. the Rev. B. Boothroyd, D.D. Pastor of the Independent Church, at Highfield Chapel, Huddersfield, in the 69th year of his age, having been ...
D.D. Doctor of Divinity
The Rev. B. Boothroyd was previously at Pontefract and wrote several books too. A Bible published 1836 has text taken from a B. Boothroyd, D.D., family Bible?
Don't forget Lane Chapel Holmfirth.
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By the way what was Bathsheba Sykes address / place of death at Almondbury in 1844?
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Boothroyd Ministers in Dissenting Card Index
Dr Williams's Centre for Dissenting Studies. The Dr Williams Library https://dwl.ac.uk/index.php
"Citations should take the form: The Surman Index Online, Dr Williams's Centre for Dissenting Studies, http://surman.english.qmul.ac.uk " Looking at the Surman Card Index (Cards viewable but from brief citations found in old published books) of Dissenting Ministers ... interesting a John Boothroyd was claimed to be born Pontefract 1810 on the same index (when clicking on B for surname and then on each name in the list).
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There is another specialist place for trying to trace NC, I believe especially Wesleyan / Methodists at the John Rylands University Library, Manchester.
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Added: Rev. Dr. Boothroyd Above Not Apparent Match to the One in Pontefract Parish Register
A site online (claiming to use Ancestry Family Trees) has mixed the above Rev. Dr. Boothroyd of Huddersfield and the Doctor's Wife who died 1832
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jGQ3AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=1832+%22Dr+Boothroyd%22+Huddersfield&source=bl&ots=nwZjranQDB&sig=ACfU3U3e2IciR5gueV9zZGoGu9yUEJxyAQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjlxbjl4rbnAhUjolwKHSBHDDkQ6AEwDHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=1832%20%22Dr%20Boothroyd%22%20Huddersfield&f=false
seemingly incorrectly with a Benjamin Boothroyd who married Pontefract 1801 and whose [transcribed f m p] Licence ages of 21 giving his birth about 1780, doesn't match the above Rev. Dr. B. Boothroyd birth year.
Mark
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Good Morning Jill
Further to last evening's post (I presume with some types of DNA testing you try and bring any descendants of a possible link, forward in the Census etc., to someone living with a match today?), here are three of the Marriages of the Rev. Dr. Boothroyd's (of Huddersfield) children found in newspapers ...
Three Marriages in Newspapers of Rev. Dr, Boothroyd's of Huddersfield Children
Leeds Mercury, Yorkshire, 16th February 1833
On Wednesday, …
Same day, Mr E. Eastwood, dyer, to Sarah, youngest daughter of the Rev. Dr. Boothroyd, all of Huddersfield.
By Licence?
[Sarah Boothroyd aged 20 per f m p transcription]
[Edmund Eastwood aged 27 per f m p transcription]
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Leeds Times, Yorkshire, 6th November 1833
Yesterday morning, Mr J. Boothroyd, draper, of Huddersfield, son of the Rev. Dr. Boothroyd, to Miss Ann Houghton, daughter of the late Mr. Enoch Houghton, Surgeon, of that place.
By Licence?
[Joseph Boothroyd aged 22 per f m p transcription]
[Ann Houghton aged 19 per f m p transcription]
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Sun (London) 6th April 1836
On the 1st inst., at North Meols, Mr Samuel Boothroyd, son of the Rev. Dr. Boothroyd, to Sarah, daughter of the Rev. George Greatbach, of Southport.
See also the Evening Chronicle, London
On Good Friday, at the parish church, North Meols, Mr Samuel Boothroyd, son of the Rev. Dr. Boothroyd, to Sarah, daughter of the Rev. George Greatbatch, of Southport.
Sheffield Independent, 16th April 1836
On the 1st instant, at the parish church of North Meols, Mr S. Boothroyd, of Southport, son of the Rev. Dr. Boothroyd, of Huddersfield, to Sarah, the youngest daughter of the Rev. George Greatbatch, of Southport.
*See also Manchester Times 16th April 1836 and
*See also Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser 16th April 1836
*Possible Boothroyd Relatives / Friends Manchester / Lancashire area? (See below and my previous reference to Stockport)
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I've stopped my Ancestry Sub., and the two 1833 Marriage images will probably be there, to check for any possible Bathsheba / Bathia / Sykes witness signatures?
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Added: Possible Charles Boothroyd Also Connected with the Highfield Chapel, Huddersfield?
1846 ... at Highfield chapel, Huddersfield, by the Rev. J. Glendenning, Mr. Wm. Brook, to Mary, second daughter of Mr. Charles Boothroyd, all of Honley.
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1830 8th July, Leeds Intelligencer,
A Court for the Relief of Insolvent Debtors was opened at Wakefield, before William John Law, Esq. Commissioner. [Sitting dates all June]
The petition of JOSHUA BOOTHROYD, formerly of Almondbury, near Huddersfield, fancy manufacturer, and since of the same place and of Manchester, commission agent, was dismissed, he having been discharged by this Court about three years ago, and not having obtained the consent of three-fourths of his Creditors.
12th June 1830 Perry's Gazette, London p.379/380 [Manchester addresses here]
BOOTHROYD Joshua, of Almondbury, and of the Royal Oak Inn and Thatched House Tavern, Market Street, Manchester, commission agent.
1846 Insolvent Petitioners. John Boothroyd, Honley, Yorkshire, waistcoat manufacturer.
Mark
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Hi Mark,
Thanks for your replies.
Yes - it had occurred to me that Bathsheba is probably from a nonconformist family, given her name and her non-appearance in the parish records. I have even come across Rev Benjamin Boothroyd previously and I've looked at the Highfield Chapel records which are online. If my memory serves, there are indeed some of his children baptised there, but no Bathsheba. I was particularly hopeful of finding her there as her future husband Thomas Sykes was baptised there in 1792.
Bathsheba and Thomas lived in Tunnicliffe Hill, Almondbury.
I think I've exhausted any noncon records for the area that are on either FindMyPast or Ancestry but I will certainly check out those marriages you mentioned of children of Benjamin Boothroyd in case there are any witnesses mentioned. I have a feeling, though, that Bathsheba's family may have been a bit lower profile than that.
I've also tried to cover the angle that she may have been born illegitimately and changed her surname when her mother married but there aren't that many Bathshebas born in the relevant timeframe (1802 ish) and none fit that particular scenario, as far as I can make out.
Its a minefield! Thanks, once again, for taking the trouble to look into it - two heads are always better than just the one! Who knows? One day.....
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Found this
Name: Butroyd
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 25 Jan 1804
Christening Date (Original): 25 JAN 1804
Christening Place:
INDEPENDENT,HIGHFIELD BY HUDDERSFIELD,YORK,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 11 Nov 1803
Father's Name: John Butroyd
Mother's Name: Sarah
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and this - not keen on naming the babies ::)
Name:
Buthroyd
Residence Place:
Almondbury, York, England
Gender: Unknown
Christening Date: 29 May 1803
Christening Date (Original): 29 May 1803
Christening Place: Almondbury, York, England
Father's Name: John Buthroyd
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Medpat has probably cracked it!
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Wills
John Boothroyd of Moss, P. of Campsall 1854. T. value 200, further away and a bit late (unless written before 1844).
Regarding John, perhaps an original York registered Will Bundle / Admin file listed on (f m p) to 1858 at the Borthwick on m/f (Volumes), or originals obtainable as Colour pdf scans from the Borthwick, below might mention Bathsheba?
Not every Will names individual children, but Wills listed below might be useful to work out which John?
Pre 1858 York Admin files vary greatly in detail.
Not everyone left a Will or has an Admin.
Mark
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Mark and medpat,
This is getting quite exciting! but I'm reining myself in so as not to be too disappointed when it doesn't pan out!!
The 1804 Independent, Highfield baptism is certainly looking plausible. The mother's name is also plausible (though I know naming patterns were starting to die out by this time). Thomas and Bathsheba had all daughters (another reason its been so hard to find a possible father for her - I'd imagined a biblical name!): their first was Mary (name of Thomas's mother) but their second (died in infancy) and fourth were Sarah and then Sarah Ann (the latter was my 2xgreat grandmother). I tend to think that, if they've used a forename twice following an infant's death, then that name is usually a parental or at least family name).
I find it strange that the second unnamed baptism you mention, medpat, doesn't even identify the baby's gender!! Did they not bother to look!!
As for wills, I have ordered quite a few Boothroyd wills from the Borthwick over the years but never struck lucky. I'd forgotten I even have Rev Benjamin's will of 1836 - children mentioned but no Bathsheba. I have wills for Richard, Joseph, Michael etc etc but, of the John Boothroyds, I have:
1831 farmer of Quarmby cum Lindley, Huddersfield - names children but no Bathsheba
1839 innkeeper of Holmfirth - names wife Nancy and children, but no Bathsheba. (looks to be the last one on your list, Mark)
1832 fancy manufacturer of Honley - names wife Martha, sons George and Beniah and mentions daughters but doesn't name them!
That last one could have been the right one but wife is Martha, not Sarah - unless Sarah died and he remarried? (cue: me looking for said possible death and marriage!)
I tend not to bother getting Admons anymore as they usually don't tell you much at all, but there are occasionally more details than you expect, so perhaps I'll go for it. It would be worth it to break down this brickwall which has stood solidly for over a decade.
Thanks!
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The Samuel Boothroyd mentioned earlier who married the daughter of the Revd Greatbatch was a prominent member of the Congregational Church in North Meols (Southport). He was connected with Chapel Street Congregational Church and later with West End Congegational Church. His father in law Revd Greatbatch was the local Congregational Minister.