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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: nellie d on Wednesday 12 February 20 23:55 GMT (UK)

Title: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: nellie d on Wednesday 12 February 20 23:55 GMT (UK)
Not sure where to post this...so here it is.
I am looking for reference to my great great grandfather who lost his own life whilst trying to save a woman from drowning.
Apparently it was recorded in a newspaper, a clipping of which was kept by his daughter. She then showed this newspaper cutting to her nephew many years later, who then told his son about it, even more years later.
The event was after 1896 but before 1901. It most likely was in London, and more specifically, probably the Camberwell/Southwark area.
I have ploughed through the limited newspaper archive available on Ancestry to no avail.
Any ideas where else I might look?
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: avm228 on Thursday 13 February 20 00:40 GMT (UK)
Have you search FreeBMD or GRO Online death registrations for his name, so as to narrow down date and location? The death certificate would confirm his cause of death too.
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: Chris Doran on Thursday 13 February 20 01:35 GMT (UK)
It would most likely have been in a local newspaper, but very few from the London area have been digitised. We'll be in a better position to help if you give us his name and that of the woman he tried to rescue if you know it, as well as hid DoB and names of close relatives to ifrntify him.

He may have received a posthumous award from the Royal Humane Society (https://www.royalhumanesociety.org.uk) or some similar body. I don't see a list on a cursory glance of its website, but there is a contact form.
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: nellie d on Thursday 13 February 20 04:48 GMT (UK)
Thank you avm228 and Chris. I have trawled through all the recorded deaths for William John  Rowlands about that time and there are a few of similar age. I didn’t want to order all those certificates to verify him as it would cost a fortune! I didn’t put his name up as it said no requests on this forum subgroup and I didn’t want to bend the rules!
His name was William John Rowland b1860 and according to the 1891 census, (the only census return that we definitely know is him) he was born in Wood Green. His father was William too and he is found as William John on my great grandma’s birth cert  and John William on his own marriage cert, 1891 census and Workhouse Admin/Discharge records, and those two names are, well, no exactly unusual are they!  ;)
If the newspapers aren’t digitised I imagine that would mean a trip to London to scroll through miles of microfiche.....crikey, I haven’t done that for years....scroll through microfiche...or go to London either actually!
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: nellie d on Thursday 13 February 20 05:20 GMT (UK)
This is the most likely death cert. I had to crop it so I could upload it!
But would phthisis really be used as a term for death by drowning. I thought that related to TB/ consumption!
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: mckha489 on Thursday 13 February 20 05:51 GMT (UK)
What was his occupation?
Can you please post a link to the 1891. Am having trouble finding it.

(Yes, phthisis is  TB)
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: rosie99 on Thursday 13 February 20 07:11 GMT (UK)
What was his occupation?
Can you please post a link to the 1891. Am having trouble finding it.


They are in Southwark - surname Powland - FindMyPast has birthplace as London
RG12/345 f11 p17
Clifton Buildings, Noel Street, Southwark (St Gge the Martyr)

John W   Powland   26   occ   Warehouseman   bn Wood Green
Margaret E 30      bn Holborn
Margaret   6   bn Lambeth
Alice M   4   bn Lambeth
William G   2   bn Bermondsey

This family were located on an earlier post
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: rosie99 on Thursday 13 February 20 07:18 GMT (UK)
Just so that we have the information  ;D
Marriage Mar qtr 1884 
EMMETT    Margaret Ellen       
ROWLAND    John William       
St.Saviour    1d   17
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: rosie99 on Thursday 13 February 20 08:42 GMT (UK)
On your other post you mention 4 children plus one dying
Until this afternoon I knew they had 4 children, my great granny Margaret Helen b 1884 Southwark
Alice b London 1888, William b London 1889 and George b London 1893.
My great Aunt told me today that there was a baby sister born just before the mother died who herself died.....then the father died and the 4 children were orphened and ended up at Barnardo's.


ROWLAND, MARGARET  HELEN     mmn EMMETT 
1885  Mar Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 74

ROWLAND, ALICE  MAUD     mmn EMMETT 
1887  Mar Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 85

ROWLAND, WILLIAM  GEORGE     mmn EMMETT 
1889  Mar Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 41

ROWLAND, ALBERT  EDWARD     mmn EMMETT 
1890  June Quarter in ST SAVIOUR LONDON  Volume 01D  Page 37
Deaths Mar 1891 
Rowland    Albert Edward    0    St. Saviour    1d   27

Do you have Margarets death certificate

ROWLAND, GEORGE       mmn EMMETT 
1892  Jun Quarter in ST SAVIOUR LONDON  Volume 01D  Page 38
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: avm228 on Thursday 13 February 20 09:45 GMT (UK)
The four surviving children were admitted to St Saviour’s, Southwark workhouse on 1 May 1896.

Edit:

Sorry, seems that was a move within the system. The first admission I can find is 30 April 1896. They were admitted from Newington parish which is presumably where the family’s last address was.  John William Rowland was admitted with them but they seem to have been separated in the system.
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: josey on Thursday 13 February 20 11:30 GMT (UK)
Do you have Margarets death certificate

Deceased online had this burial, no other details available
Rowland  Margaret
burial date
15 January 1896
Southwark

which fits with this registration
Deaths Mar 1896 
Rowland    Margaret    40    Camberwell    1d   527

For reference the other thread is
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=36228.9

EDIT: I know it sounds wet blanketish & I don't doubt the story but the only 'proof' we have of the drowning is the newspaper cutting [presumably now lost] and family story passed down the generations. Is it possible that John William for whatever reason, left the children after separation in the workhouse system?
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: jonw65 on Thursday 13 February 20 12:03 GMT (UK)
John William was discharged from the Mint Street workhouse to go to Newington (workhouse), but I'm not sure that he was admitted there.
Children sent from Newington workhouse to Hanwell schools, 4 June 1896
St Saviour's School Register marks up the children as deserted.
Father St Georges Whouse John
deserted (them?)

On ancestry
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01p1h/

EDIT Discharged 28 June 1897. Boarded out.
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: nellie d on Thursday 13 February 20 12:26 GMT (UK)
Aren’t you all lovely...and Rosie99...bless your heart...As you probably saw I was looking into thus lot a few years ago, but then ill health stopped me from doing any of thus. I am back now with a vengeance and most of what you lovely people have written I have already discovered. It was the bit about the drowning that I wanted to research more! As Josey said, it could well be possible he deserted them and that is a nice story.
This information regarding the drowning cane from cousins in the US. There were the 4 children, my gt Granny Margaret, Alice, Will and George. Alice never had children and the two boys left fir the US c1914. I managed to track down their descendants a couple if years ago.
The two families, that if Will and that if George have two different stories. One us that he committed suicide, the other is the drowning story. Now, apparently Alice, the sister is the one who showed a newspaper cutting to the nephew. I did find an Alexander  Rowland amongst the Royal Humane Society archives as suggested by Chris Doran earlier. He died whilst attempting a rescue and the dates are about right too. I wonder if the clipping just said Mr Rowland, and it just became legend.
Granny always told us that they were in Barnardos, but there is no record of them there, I think saying they were in and out of the workhouse was probably embarrassing for her. I have found them in and out of St Saviours for April and May 1896, just after their mother died. She definitely died there and I have the death cert. Her bay, Charlotte died 3 weeks later. It was just after that, that they ended up fling in to St Saviours Union as a family, then they seemed to go their separate ways about 14th May. There is a William Rowland of the right age that is popping up there over the years right into the early  1900’s, and if he did abandon them that could well be him, but I guess we will never know. Just thought it might be an idea asking in here. I know the children were with the Stride family in Mayfield by 1901, it was his death that I was really interested in...thank you all so much...you are amazing!
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: nellie d on Thursday 13 February 20 12:28 GMT (UK)
John William was discharged from the Mint Street workhouse to go to Newington (workhouse), but I'm not sure that he was admitted there.
Children sent from Newington workhouse to Hanwell schools, 4 June 1896
St Saviour's School Register marks up the children as deserted.
Father St Georges Whouse John
deserted (them?)

On ancestry
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01p1h/

EDIT Discharged 28 June 1897. Boarded out.

JonW65....I could kiss you...that will be the missing link I need between discharge from St Saviours and ending up being adopted/fostered by the Strides in Mayfield!  :-*


Also...I am on ancestry and with all my searching I never found that bit about the school..well done!
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: josey on Thursday 13 February 20 12:58 GMT (UK)
Do you have John William's birth certificate or baptism  with actual date of birth - could just be on 1939 register?
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: nellie d on Thursday 13 February 20 13:56 GMT (UK)
Josie...the only reference I have for age is from the 1891 census and marriage cert.
Plus of course the workhouse admissions and discharges.
1891 census says 26...1858
Marriage cert for 27/12/1884 says 24...1860
Workhouse entry for 30 April 1896 says he is was born in 1861
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: nellie d on Thursday 13 February 20 16:07 GMT (UK)
I am not having much success at uploading the certificates...I keep getting the message that says the file is too big. How can I reduce the size?
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: rosie99 on Thursday 13 February 20 16:11 GMT (UK)
We can only upload parts of certificates when we need something deciphering.  It may be better just to type out the information
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: nellie d on Thursday 13 February 20 16:15 GMT (UK)
Thank you Rosie! I have been away from the group for a few years due to my health...but I am back now, just a bit rusty! 😉😊
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: nellie d on Friday 14 February 20 20:28 GMT (UK)
Well...look what I’ve found...
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: nellie d on Friday 14 February 20 20:32 GMT (UK)
Bit in further investigation it’s clear that it wasn’t the Rowland I was looking for...I wonder if this is how the story developed!
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: josey on Sunday 16 February 20 09:58 GMT (UK)
Good finds Nellie; does look suspiciously like the origin of the story! Perhaps by a rellie who isn't as meticulous as you....
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: nellie d on Sunday 16 February 20 12:06 GMT (UK)
Thanks Josey. I think this is exactly the origin...quite surprised I found it...I used the 3 free credits you get in signing up to https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/
I think my relatives in the US might be a bit disappointed as they have had the hero story for the best part of a century. I think what you said the other day is spot on...and you didn’t sound like you were being a “wet blanket”! Xx
In fact  Josey, I think my family are a bunch of story tellers...we have this, the child entertainer and the fairground family. I have traced all the descendants that I possibly can, (and that will reply to my messages) and they have all heard of the fairground story...but there is absolutely nothing to back it up! I wonder, if as with the drowning story, many family anecdotes are either embellished or “Chinese whispered” over time and become totally unrecognisable as the original events!
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 16 February 20 12:31 GMT (UK)
Arthur Rowlands lived at 87 Stamford Street in Lambeth. In the 1901 census he was a cab proprietor. In directories for the early/mid 1890's he was a dairyman. Born Lambeth circa 1868.
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: josey on Sunday 16 February 20 12:50 GMT (UK)
many family anecdotes are either embellished or “Chinese whispered” over time and become totally unrecognisable as the original events!
A bit like the 'story' that there was a Spanish ancestor in my family - none found yet after 12 years researching - solid Ireland, Yorkshire, Surrey & Cornwall all via London once I get back so far.
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: nellie d on Sunday 16 February 20 14:12 GMT (UK)
Thanks Shaun...Arthur  Rowlands isn’t anything to do with me...apart from being the person that my family thought was their hero of a father because he was referred to only by his surname in a newspaper report. Mine is John!
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: nellie d on Sunday 16 February 20 14:14 GMT (UK)
Yes, Josey. This John Rowland is also meant to be Irish...I’ve had the dna test..no Irish whatsoever! Sort of disproves that theory doesn’t it?  ;) :D
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 16 February 20 15:03 GMT (UK)
I wonder whether the census entry actually gives his correct details.  His marriage says his father is a Carpenter & dec'd. 

There is a John William Rowland in Camberwell in 1871 RG10/737 f66 p2
John W Rowland age 47 occ Carpenter & Undertaker -bn Witwell, Norfolk
Harriet 47 bn Hawkess, Sussex
William J age 20 occ Baker bn Camberwell
John E -age 18 -occ Blacksmith bn Newington
Caroline J age 12 bn Newington
Rose E age 7 bn Newington
Robert J age 5 -bn Newington
Lucy Rowland -mother bn Norfolk.

In 1861 J W Rowland is a Carpenter and the 2 boys William J & John E are both listed as John. (John W / John E)

Possible death for John William the elder
Dec qtr 1874 
ROWLAND    John William   age 52   
Camberwell    1d   535

It may be worth looking at if you have not already done so if only to discount it
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: nellie d on Sunday 16 February 20 15:51 GMT (UK)
Thank you Rosie. I did find them. After many years referring to him as William John, after seeing the workhouse records were her is John William, I am now focusing on him being known as John.
This helped me find the carpenter. Previously I had a William John Sr and Jr, the senior being an undertaker and I know that being an undertaker was a sort of sideline job for carpenters. But seing John sr actually recorded as a carpenter makes me think this lot is more likely. Of course for many years we all thought he was Irish and as we know census can be out sometimes! Me not having any Irish ancestry in dna was (assuming it is correct) very useful as it stopped me going down alleys with brick walls at the bottom! I don’t think we will ever know his death, but I feel fairly satisfied that he wasn’t involved with the attempted drowning incident. I have another avenue I am pursuing in the family to whom the children were fostered out to and I am hopefully of a response from the descendants of them, assuming of course that they even read let alone respond to my message!
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 16 February 20 16:05 GMT (UK)
It is a shame that he cleared off (or died  ;D  ) and left the family, if he had stayed at least we would have had him on another census. 
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: jonw65 on Sunday 16 February 20 16:28 GMT (UK)
Re the elder one in that family, William John the baker.
He may be Roulard in the 81 index. Wife Sarah, nee Silk. Also his brother Robert. Living in Newington.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27Q-HVR8

Then they are in Lewisham in 1891.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q35P-W6Z
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 16 February 20 16:32 GMT (UK)
Thank you John, at least that has discounted that one.  :)
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: nellie d on Sunday 16 February 20 18:59 GMT (UK)
Jonw65..thank you for looking....that’s another version if the name worth considering...thanks!
Rosie...I did consider that family but the fact that these two were a blacksmith and a baker made me wonder, as surely if you had a trade like that would you end up as a labourer or warehouse man?
Title: Re: Trying to find reference to a drowning 1890’s
Post by: josey on Sunday 16 February 20 22:26 GMT (UK)
Yes, it is possible, people got injured or not fit to do strenuous jobs & took whatever they could in order to earn a living.