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Research in Other Countries => United States of America => Topic started by: MJW on Sunday 16 February 20 16:23 GMT (UK)
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Hi
Does anyone know what a birth certificate issued in New York City in 1930 would contain? I've searched around but can't find anything that helps.
Any help much appreciated.
Malcolm
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Here is a fictitious entry from family search - New York Births and Christenings, 1640-1962
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:HWFL-9FN2
Sandra
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Thanks for this Sandra.
Unless I'm missing something, this link doesn't show a birth certificate or explain the contents. It seems to suggest that the record image can be obtained from a FamilySearch centre but I think it's just the birth index.
Just to clarify, I'm researching a relative who was born In New York City and I know their exact date of birth. I'm trying to find information about his mother and I wondered what his birth certificate might show about her.
Malcolm
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I don't have any from that era, but I was able to find one online from 1946 for a certain politician born in NYC who shall remain nameless (we're not supposed to get political here on Rootschat) - http://www.theamericanmirror.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/trump-birth-certificate.jpg I expect you would find similar info on one from 1930.
I don't know if you're a close relative to the person you're looking for, but unfortunately, NYC recently made it tougher to get records from that era. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/services/birth-certificates.page
Starting January 1, 2019, the following relations can request the birth certificate of someone who is deceased:
Spouse
Domestic partner
Parent (if the deceased was 18 or younger)
Child
Sibling
Niece/Nephew
Aunt/Uncle
Grandchild
Grandniece/Grandnephew
Great grandchild
To request the certificate, you must submit:
A completed, signed and notarized Birth Certificate Application (PDF).
A completed family tree document (PDF).
The original death certificate, if the person died outside New York City.
A copy of the death certificate or the death certificate number, if the person died in New York City.
A check or money order payment as follows:
If ordered by mail, $15 for each copy of the certificate.
If ordered in person, $15 per certificate, plus a one-time fee of $2.75 for identity verification. For example, the cost of one certificate is $17.75, and two certificates would be $32.75.
A legible copy of your valid, unexpired, photo identification (see last FAQ on this page for more information about valid IDs).
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I don't have any from that era, but I was able to find one online from 1946 for a certain politician born in NYC who shall remain nameless (we're not supposed to get political here on Rootschat) - http://www.theamericanmirror.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/trump-birth-certificate.jpg I expect you would find similar info on one from 1930.
I don't know if you're a close relative to the person you're looking for, but unfortunately, NYC recently made it tougher to get records from that era. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/services/birth-certificates.page
Thank you, that's very helpful - and a very thoughtful example who shall reman nameless!!
You've also answered what would have been my next question about how feasible it is to get his birth certificate. The certificate would have helped me (if it showed his mother's age and birthplace) but I think getting a copy is a non-starter. The person is probably a 2nd cousin (or thereabouts) and is my closest DNA match - and a bit of a mystery. I'd heard that getting certificates in the US was not always easy and varied by State but didn't realise it was so difficult in NYC. I'm in the UK and it's fairly straightforward to get anyone's birth certificate.
Now looking for a plan B.
Thanks …. Malcolm
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Hi Malcolm,
I presume you've attempted to contact them via whatever company you did the DNA match in, and it hasn't worked out - do you know if they're deceased or just no longer contactable through that avenue?
If you know when the person died you could get hold of the SS-5 form, but unfortunately they've started blacking out parents' names from it unless you can prove the parents are also deceased or the person was born at least 100 years ago, so rather a non-starter if you don't know the mother's name to start with.
Do you have them on the 1940 census? Was their date of birth early enough that you might find them on the 1930?
Or, if you have some idea who the connection is through, perhaps you can confirm that that person was in NY in 1930, then trace them in the area looking for records such as obituaries that might mention names of children?
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dobsearch.com lets you search by name and exact date of birth. click "advanced search" to fill in the dates. This might turn them up, even if deceased.
I also think that if you can get to the US Public Records database at ancestry.com, you can enter an exact dob.
Even familysearch, if you put in the name and 'born from 1930 to 1930', might give you results from the US Public Records. Some of these results show exact DOB in the results.
If that is the direction you are headed in.
edit to add:
If the name is unusual enough, or sometimes even if not, Googling them and their last known location might find them. If he isn't in the New York area, try Florida, Virginia, N Carolina, Arizona, or California, likely places to retire or migrate. (Hopefully he didn't go to college in the Midwest and decide to stay there)
Look through the results. whitepages will sometimes give you an age. Mylife.com sometimes even an exact DOB, as do a few voter records sites.
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another idea. Google the surname and "survived by" his given name.
If his name is John Smith, try: Smith "survived by" John Smith.
The quotes are important, they will make Google look for the exact phrase. Add the likely area to narrow it down.
Chances are pretty good his parents stayed and died in the NYC area, maybe NJ or Connecticut, but not much farther, unless they retired south.
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Thanks for your replies. Let me try and briefly explain the background to my post, I think I can safely name the person as he is now deceased.
I took a DNA test with Ancestry in 2018 and Henry Vila was shown as my highest match. I had no idea who he was, there was nothing in his profile and no family tree but we had similar Irish ethicity (around 40%). I sent him a brief message in October 2018 asking if he would like to compare information etc. I heard nothing from him until 2 September 2019 when I received a reply that simply said “My birth mother was Nora Barret. She gave birth to me in NYC in 1930.” I noticed also that a small tree of 3 persons had appeared in his Ancestry profile which named his parents as Rafael Vila and Nora Barrett (born Ireland, died New York City).
I wasn’t able to follow this up further until a couple of weeks later when I did some searching using the NYC connection and immediately found Henry Vila’s obituary. This showed that he died on 2 September 2019. I was shocked when I realised that this was the same date as his message. I don’t know the circumstances of his death but I found the timing very strange. His obituary is very detailed, I won’t post it here as it names some of his descendants, but here is an extract.
It is with great sadness that the family of Henry Vila announces his passing at age 89 on Monday, September 2, 2019 in Hilliard, Ohio. He was born on January 28, 1930 in New York City, where he lived and worked for 80 years. He was the son of Rafael Vila (1899-1944), the owner-operator of a barber shop in Upper Manhattan, and Nora Barett. He was raised by his father and his beautiful and beloved step-mother, Enid Eloise (Grey) Vila (1898-1986) who gave him love and kindness and taught him manners and self-respect.
I find the wording on his obituary strange as Nora Barrett barely gets a mention (I’m surprised in some ways that she’s mentioned at all). It is Nora Barratt that I’m trying to find more about as I’m sure this is where my connection is. I was hoping that Henry’s birth certificate (if I could get it) might show more about her (hence my original post). What I’ve found since is:-
- Henry on 1930 census, age 3 months, in NYC shown as adopted son with a large group of Puerto Rico/Spanish persons (I don’t recognise any names)
- Henry is on 1940 census in NYC, age 10 born NYC, with parents Rafael Vila (born Puerto Rico) & Enid Vila (born Jamaica) , grandmother Catherine Frazier born Jamaica
- I can’t find Rafael in 1930 but I think I’ve found Enid (shown as Edith Villiers with mother Catherine Fraser)
- I belive Rafael Vila & Enid Grey were married in 1925, 5 years before Henry’s birth to mother Nora Barrett
I’ve searched US immigration records and passenger lists, and found several possible Nora Barretts (and name variations) from Ireland. I’ve tried to cross-check these to Irish births, US census and other records but found nothing conclusive for Nora. I’d really like to know, for example, when she came to US, her age, where in Ireland she’s from, was Barrett her maiden name, her parents etc. It’s probably a long shot but I can hope!! I live in the UK so don’t have easy access to some US records.
Any thoughts most welcome.
Malcolm
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His birth record would only have told you, mother: Nora Barrett, born in Ireland. Maybe a place of birth would have been a clue, if it wasn't a hospital, but a street address. Maybe the informant's name, if it wasn't his father or mother.
No sign of Nora in 1930?
as for Henry's date of death and the date of the message--at 89, someone else might have been handling the DNA submission and the ancestry account. Is Henry the home person or a descendant? are there descendants on the tree?
Where does your own Irish ancestry point to, have you found out?
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It was very gracious of them to mention his real mother in the obituary, and unusual, I thought.
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1925 NYC City Directory
Barrett, Nora maid resides 940 East 174th
no Rafael Vila
1927-1932 NYC Business Directory only
no section for barbers in the ones I looked through
1931 Manhattan City Directory
Barrett
Nora 413 E 143rd
Nora 70 W 106th
Vila
no Rafael Vila
1933 NYC City Directory
"B" is missing
Vila, Rafael barber at 1736 Madison Ave, resides at 51 W 111th
many other Vilas
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started at stevemorse.org. looked for NY arrivals.
first name: starts with Nora, last name: starts with Barret, born 1885 to 1913, arrived 1920 to 1924. found 5.
she is not
name, residence, age, born (range), arrival date:
Barret, Norah, Moycullen, Ireland, 20, 1899-1900, 1920, headed to Boston
Barrett, Nora, Ballina, Co. Mayo, Ireland, 20, 1903-1904, 1924, headed to Chicago
Barrett, Noran, Cork, Ireland, 21, 1902-1903, 1924, headed to Chicago
may be:
name, residence, age, born (range), arrival date:
Barrett, Nora, Mallow, Ireland, 24, 1895-1896, 1920, headed to the Bronx
Barrett, Nora, Castlegregory, Ireland, 18, 1904-1905, 1923, headed to her sister Miss Martha/Bertha Barrett, 498? West 51st, contact in Ireland: Mother? Mrs Barrett, Clahane, Castlegregory, Co. Kerry
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If I get a chance I'll look at earlier and later arrivals sometime soon.
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The 1911 Census showed 33 people named Nora Barrett in Ireland, born 1884 to 1911. Counties: Cork, Kerry, Galway, Mayo, Limerick, Waterford, Dublin
Do any of the counties ring a bell with your ancestry?
But that doesn't include Norah or Hanora, or Barret. So ...
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Rafael Vila's father's name was Enrique, so Henry was named after him. I was hoping "Henry" could be a clue to Nora Barrett's father.
Rafael's death
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WPN-6H9
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If he was adopted, that puts another wrinkle in the situation. Typically, the birth record would be changed to include the adopted parents' information, so if Nora was the birth mother, she would not be listed on a standard birth record.
New York recently changed its law to allow adoptees to receive their original birth certificates. A direct line descendant can also order it, but that's it. The information is here if you are able to find a direct line descendant. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/services/birth-certificates.page#adoption
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Of the arrivals, I think you can eliminate:
name, residence, age, born (range), arrival date:
Barrett, Nora, Mallow, Ireland, 24, 1895-1896, 1920, headed to the Bronx
Here is the full information on her from the image:
Barrett, Nora, 24, single, from Mallow, Ireland, 24, 1895-1896, 1920, headed to her sister, Mrs Denis Donovan, 1843 Bronx Avenue, Bronx, born in Mallow, contact in Ireland: brother Cornelius Barrett, 21 Ballydahee, Mallow
I think you can eliminate her. A Nora Barrett married a man named William Murphy 31 Jan 1932 in the Bronx. I think she probably stayed in one place once she arrived.
Her sister could be one of the young women in the household in 1911, I haven't double checked.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Mallow/Bridge_Street/430346/
This Norah was born 13 April 1895 Ballydaheen, Mallow, to John Barrett and Elizabeth Connell
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And another arrival I think you can eliminate is:
left Queenstown 5 September 1926, arrived 13 Sep 1926
Nora Barrett, 26, single, domestic servant, born in Limerick, Ireland, had been in US from 1921 to 1926, visa issued Aug 5, 1926, Washington, last permanent residence: New York City, destination: home 703 9th Avenue, NYC. contact in ireland: Mother Mrs Mary Barrett, 4 Taylor Row, Gerald Griffin Street, Limerick City, Limerick
She was born 13 Jun 1894, Palmerstown, Limerick, daughter of Thomas Barrett and Mary Harty.
1911 Census: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Limerick/Limerick_No__6_Urban__Pt__of_/Taylor_s_Row/628162/
A tree at ancestry says she had a son William Jones, b 25 Aug 1929. if so, she married William Jones, 20 July 1927. This tree is small and has a lot of family pictures attached, so I kind of trust it. But without the image of the marriage record, you can't be 100% sure. Keep her in the file somewhere.
https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/51242655/person/26074736965/facts
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That leaves her, among the arrivals I found between 1920 and 1929:
name, residence, age, born (range), arrival date:
Barrett, Nora, Castlegregory, Ireland, 18, 1904-1905, 1923, headed to her sister Miss Martha/Bertha Barrett, 498? West 51st, contact in Ireland: Mother? Mrs Barrett, Clahane, Castlegregory, Co. Kerry
She was born 24 Aug 1906, Cloghane, daughter of Andrew Barrett, a mason, and Johanna Lynch
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1906/01724/1682096.pdf
and is at home in 1911, Cloghane
Andrew Barrett, 55, born in Kerry, mason
Johanna Barrett, 43,
Patrick Lynch, father in law, 74, Kerry
Noran Barrett, 4, Kerry
others in household also
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kerry/Cloghane/Cloghane_Town/295011/
I can't eliminate her. A tree has her as the woman marrying in the Bronx, but why? Why not the Nora who is already in the Bronx? Again the marriage record image would be helpful. And I didn't find a sister Martha/Bertha. The closest was Bridget.
edited to add
For all these, I shouldn't have said "eliminate". I should have said less probable or more probable.
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1931 Manhattan City Directory
Barrett, Nora 70 W 106th
1933 NYC City Directory
Vila, Rafael barber at 1736 Madison Ave, resides at 51 W 111th
These three addresses are pretty close together, according to Google maps.
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His birth record would only have told you, mother: Nora Barrett, born in Ireland. Maybe a place of birth would have been a clue, if it wasn't a hospital, but a street address. Maybe the informant's name, if it wasn't his father or mother.
No sign of Nora in 1930?
as for Henry's date of death and the date of the message--at 89, someone else might have been handling the DNA submission and the ancestry account. Is Henry the home person or a descendant? are there descendants on the tree?
Where does your own Irish ancestry point to, have you found out?
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It was very gracious of them to mention his real mother in the obituary, and unusual, I thought.
Thanks for this and your other replies (which I haven't had time to fully digest yet).
I found a possible Nora T. Barrett in 1930 as one of many lodgers at Hotel Pennsylvania, West 33rd Street, Manhattan. Age 23, b. Ireland, immigration date 1924. Not managed to find more about her yet.
Henry is the home person, the account's in his name and there's no mention of someone else managing his test/account. There are no descendants shown on his tree, just 3 people - Henry, Rafael Vila and Nora Barrett. I did wonder if someone else had replied to my message on Henry's behalf but wouldn't they have said so and used different wording … and on that day??
Ancestry shows my Irish ancestry as "shared migrations" in Leinster & Munster (mainly N.Munster & N. Tipperary), same as Henry Vila. My estimated ethnicity 40% Irish, Henry 54%. From my research, I have Irish ancestors from Tipperary on 2 different lines, including a Mary Barrett great grandmother.
I agree with you that it was gracious and unusual to mention Nora in his obituary. Certainly in the UK, very unusual - I've not seen it in 20 years family history research.
I'll try and look at your other replies tomorrow when I have a bit more time and I can compare to my research notes.
Malcolm
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I found a possible Nora T. Barrett in 1930 as one of many lodgers at Hotel Pennsylvania, West 33rd Street, Manhattan. Age 23, b. Ireland, immigration date 1924. Not managed to find more about her yet.
I didn't either. She might be the one from Limerick, and she might be the at 70 W 106th in 1931, but there is no way to tell.
Henry is the home person, the account's in his name and there's no mention of someone else managing his test/account. There are no descendants shown on his tree, just 3 people - Henry, Rafael Vila and Nora Barrett.
I didn't find that one. I found this one. The owner is one of his daughters.
https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/119332028/person/280179843916/facts?_phsrc=TUs85&_phstart=successSource
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I did wonder if someone else had replied to my message on Henry's behalf but wouldn't they have said so and used different wording … and on that day??
Or he knew he was dying, or, having messaged you, he had nothing left he wanted to do. Old age makes you do funny things.
From my research, I have Irish ancestors from Tipperary on 2 different lines, including a Mary Barrett great grandmother.
At this point, I think it would be easier to start with what you know of your family, find them on the censuses and civil records, maybe even the baptism records, and work outward from there until you find Nora. If you want to post what you know here, I'm sure there are people willing to help. If you post in the Tipperary section, include a link back here to save people the time of finding what you know about the US side.
The youngest Nora Barretts I see in Tipperary in 1911 were both 29.
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I'll try and look at your other replies tomorrow when I have a bit more time and I can compare to my research notes.
A lot of it was me throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what would stick. A lot of it didn't.
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If he was adopted, that puts another wrinkle in the situation. Typically, the birth record would be changed to include the adopted parents' information, so if Nora was the birth mother, she would not be listed on a standard birth record.
New York recently changed its law to allow adoptees to receive their original birth certificates. A direct line descendant can also order it, but that's it. The information is here if you are able to find a direct line descendant. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/services/birth-certificates.page#adoption
Without knowing the circumstances around Henry's birth (I can only speculate) I had wondered if there was some form of adoption, or even a surrogacy arrangement. I live in the UK (and don't know much about adoption in the US), adoption here was legalised in 1926 but before then there were many "unofficial" adoptions with no real documentation involved.
Thanks ….. Malcolm
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oldohiohome
Re. a couple of your points.
I've seen his daughter's tree and sent her a message last year, I've had no response so far.
I've been researching this part of my family for over 15 years (and got census, BMD certificates, baptisms etc.). I've been going over it again over the last few months (with lots of creative searching!) looking for any link to a Nora Barrett but nothing found so far. I might do what you suggest and post a summary of what I know on the Tipperary board.
Re. "throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks". That's exactly how I work!!
Thanks for all your comments ….. Malcolm