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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Kilkenny => Topic started by: Silverhawk on Thursday 27 February 20 21:03 GMT (UK)
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Johanna Moore was the wife of my great-great-grandmother's brother, John Comerford. They married in February 1868 at Muckalee parish chapel. Trying to find her baptism has been a chore though as her age isn't consistant from record to record. On her marriage she's stated to be 25, meaning a birthyear around 1842/43.
The next record with her age is the 1901 census. She's at Coolcullen with two of her sons, Michael and James; and another child, Johanna, who's stated to be a niece but which I think is actually a granddaughter as I've traced her birth and it matches up with the daughter of one of her other sons, Patrick, who by that time had moved to Scotland. Johanna's age in 1901 is given as 50 which pushes her birth forward to 1850/51, some 8 years out.
The next record is the 1911 census. She's still at Coolcullen. James has left home, but Michael is still around and there's a "relative", Katie Dowling ("niece" is crossed out) there. Johanna's now 71, pushing her birthyear back to 1839/40, only 3 years away from her age at marriage, but 11 away from her age in the last census.
The last record is her death certificate. The only one post 1911 that has details that match is in December 1920. Living at Coolcullen and informant is son, Michael, which all fits with what I know of her situation in 1911. However Michael has said she was 68 at death which points to 1852 for her birthyear. Not much out from the 1901 census, but way out from her marriage certificate and 1911.
On her marriage certificate, her father is Michael Moore, a mason. The only baptism record I can find on the microfilmed registers at Ancestry for a Johanna (or variations) with father's name Michael is a Joanna Moore baptised at Gowran in March 1840, parents Michael Moore and Margaret Hayden of Revanagh. The age agrees with the 1911 census, but no other record. There's some circumstantial evidence supporting this though. Johanna and John had their first daughter, Margaret, three months after they married. At the baptism, performed the day after, Johanna's maiden name is correctly given as Moore. However on the birth certificate, registered two weeks later, her maiden name was Hayden instead. It's clearly the same child other than that detail and the birth being one day earlier than that stated at the baptism (I'm finding minor date irregularity to be common between Irish birth certificates and baptisms). John was the informant, could it be that he got confused and thought the registrar meant his wife's mother's maiden name???
Given all of that, do you think it's safe for me to assume that the Gowran Joanna in 1840 is the Johanna I'm looking for? I think the theory hangs together, just the wild age inconsistancy is making me hesitate.
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https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0997 Muckalee
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Hi
There's a marriage at Muckerlee
Michael Moore and Bridget Saunders 29.5.1848
Present Dennis,Margery ,George Saunders and Mary Brennon.
They have Kate 26.5. 1851,Margaret 24 Dec 1853,John 9.11. 1855 and Bridget 24.5.1862 all at Kilkenny St Johns .
Residence on John's Ossery Hill
Ciderdrinker
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on the birth certificate, registered two weeks later, her maiden name was Hayden
John was the informant, could it be that he got confused and thought the registrar meant his wife's mother's maiden name???
Only if his wife's Mother was nee Hayden!
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Have you looked for Moore Marriages?
This might be Comerford one, depending on baptisms of children.....
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Right page...
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635381#page/60/mode/1up
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Only if his wife's Mother was nee Hayden!
Well, like I said, I found the baptism of a Joanna Moore at Gowran in 1840 and the parents were Michael Moore and Margaret Hayden. The father's name fits, and it would provide an explanation as to where the surname Hayden sprang from, otherwise I can't find a reason why Johanna would be called it. Especially when the priest got her name right only two weeks before, and it's right on the birth certificate for every other child Johanna had. The 1840 baptism date doesn't fit her death cert, 1901 census or marriage cert, but it does fit her age on the 1911 census. If it fit nothing, there'd be less to support it, but that it matches at least one other document makes me think it's possible?
I'm unsure as to what your Comerford image/link is showing? I know John married Johanna in 1868. If you're hypothesising another wife John had, 1840 is way too early for that. Unless he massively downscaled his age when marrying Johanna, and lied about being a bachelor. ???
Hi
There's a marriage at Muckerlee
Michael Moore and Bridget Saunders 29.5.1848
Present Dennis,Margery ,George Saunders and Mary Brennon.
They have Kate 26.5. 1851,Margaret 24 Dec 1853,John 9.11. 1855 and Bridget 24.5.1862 all at Kilkenny St Johns .
Residence on John's Ossery Hill
Ciderdrinker
Father's name fits, and the date is early enough for her ages on the 1901 census and death cert to be in the right ballpark. Is there a Jo(h)anna amongst their kids? I didn't see another Jo(h)anna in this time period, but may have missed something.
Have you looked for Moore Marriages?
For Johanna's parents? Yes, there appears to be 7 possible ones for a Michael Moore before 1852, assuming her parents married in the diocese of Ossory. The various brides are what looks like Sarah Huphries (1830 Camross, Laois), Margaret Hayden (1831 Gowran, Kilkenny), Auty Keoughan (1838 Freshford, Kilkenny), Margaret Rogan (1839 City of Kilkenny), Judy Ring (1841 Callan, Kilkenny), Ellen Cody (1842 Slieverue, Kilkenny) and the Bridget Saunders (1848 Muckalee, Kilkenny) that ciderdrinker mentioned. Michael and Margaret Hayden is the only couple I can find who had a kid called Jo(h)anna though. Unless I've missed something, which is possible.
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Hi
You're right Silverhawk.
Forgive me for confusing things
Ciderdrinker
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Only if his wife's Mother was nee Hayden!
I'm unsure as to what your Comerford image/link is showing? I know John married Johanna in 1868. If you're hypothesising another wife John had, 1840 is way too early for that. Unless he massively downscaled his age when marrying Johanna, and lied about being a bachelor. ???
Marriage of Parents....
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Only if his wife's Mother was nee Hayden!
Have you looked for Moore Marriages?
For Johanna's parents? Yes, there appears to be 7 possible ones for a Michael Moore before 1852, assuming her parents married in the diocese of Ossory. The various brides are what looks like Sarah Huphries (1830 Camross, Laois), Margaret Hayden (1831 Gowran, Kilkenny), Auty Keoughan (1838 Freshford, Kilkenny), Margaret Rogan (1839 City of Kilkenny), Judy Ring (1841 Callan, Kilkenny), Ellen Cody (1842 Slieverue, Kilkenny) and the Bridget Saunders (1848 Muckalee, Kilkenny) that ciderdrinker mentioned. Michael and Margaret Hayden is the only couple I can find who had a kid called Jo(h)anna though. Unless I've missed something, which is possible.
Who did Joanna Moore dau of Michael Moore and Margaret Hayden marry? Another John Comerford??
Stranger things have happened!
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I'm unsure as to what your Comerford image/link is showing?[/b] I know John married Johanna in 1868. If you're hypothesising another wife John had, 1840 is way too early for that. Unless he massively downscaled his age when marrying Johanna, and lied about being a bachelor. ???
Marriage of Parents....
Ahhh, I see now. Sadly not though as John's father on his marriage cert is "Patt" Comerford, which I assume would be Patrick. The marriage entry above his on the register is his sister's, my great-great-grandmother, to which both John and Johanna were witnesses. That's how I found him :)
Who did Joanna Moore dau of Michael Moore and Margaret Hayden marry? Another John Comerford??
Stranger things have happened!
I don't know. I've been through all the Jo(h)anna Moor(e) marriages on irishgenealogy.ie up to 1900 and only two of them have fathers called Michael. The one that I know is mine in 1868 and another in 1872 who married a John Cournane in County Kerry. So I suppose that could be her if she moved from Kilkenny to Kerry, but I don't know how I'd work that out. And of course she could have got married before 1864, but Ancestry brings up nothing promising from the catholic registers. Though if Margaret Hayden's daughter is actually the 1872 one, then that leaves no candidate for my Johanna and no clue as to where the Hayden name came from.
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Jane 1873
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03172/2163471.pdf
possibly married Patrick Doolan/Dowling 1896 in Carlow
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1896/10509/5827990.pdf
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Carlow/Kellestown/Tinriland/1043992/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Carlow/Kellistown/Tinriland/312489/
date of census return 12th April
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001671368/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kilkenny/Mothell/Coolcullen/566477/
date of census return 7th April
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002634573/
make your own mind up if it's the same Katie