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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Kumquat on Friday 06 March 20 18:58 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I am seeking information on Harry McLaughlin, born in Dublin, Ireland. I have seen birth dates ranging from 1888 to 1893. Harry was a resident of New Brunswick, Canada 1n 1915. He signed up with the Canadian Expeditionary Forces on 29 July 1915 in Sussex, New Brunswick. He gave his date of birth as 1 May 1888, Dublin, Ireland. His next of kin was listed as Emma McLaughlin, Sackville Street, Dublin. In the before attestation questions Harry gave a Mrs. Amy Taylor ( cousin ) as his next of kin and her address as No. 7 Hions Building, Farrier Street, Worcester, England. After some months under fire in France he was taken to England for medical treatment. He was deemed unfit to return to the war front. In 1918 while still in England, the Manchester area, he gave a Daniel McLaughlin ( brother ) as his next of kin. In December of 1917 He married Hilda Porter of Manchester. Harry was shipped back to Canada 1n 1918 and Hilda arrived in September of 1918 as a War Bride.
Harry died in saint John, New Brunswick 14 July 1957. On the Certificate of Registration of Death his parents names were listed as unknown.
I have not discovered when he first arrived in Canada.
Thanks
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does his marriage cert not include his father's name and occupation ?
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Civil birth records are online on the free Irish Genealogy website (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp) and include births from 1864 to 1919
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Welcome to Roots Chat Kumquat.
I can't find a birth registration for him in the Dublin area during the approximate time frame - nor can I see him on the 1901 census --- or a parish baptism.
I have also looked for his apparant brother Daniel. The Canadian papers state his mother Emma as next of kin. However as athacliaf has already asked --- do you have his marriage record to Hilda please?
That would give a father's name (if there was one of course) - and we could perhaps search for children born to that father and an Emma. It's possible that 'Harry' was a nickname I suppose.
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I'd say he was registered as Henry, assuming he was registered
I also checked census for possible matches for Emma and Daniel, but didn't spot any good matches or any on Sackville street, also also possible matches for birth of Harry/Henry, but again nothing very promising
does the record mention status/relationship of this Emma ?
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Here is Henry McLoughlin in 1901 with mother Emma :-\
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Inns_Quay/St__Ignatius_Road/1325069/
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Here is the birth for that Henry
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1889/02486/1922535.pdf
I don’t see the family yet in 1911 though
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No, that’s not him - he married in 1926
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1926/09119/5298407.pdf
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Hi
1897 Birth details for William & Emma’s daughter Emily:-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1897/02129/1808987.pdf
Regards
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Doing this Search only returns 3 possibles!
Party 1 Name PATRICK MCLAUGHLIN
Party 2 Name EMMA MCDAID
Date of Event 26 October 1891
Group Registration ID 2577061
SR District/Reg Area Londonderry
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1891/10684/5893674.pdf
Party 1 Name WILLIAM MCLOUGHLIN
Party 2 Name EMMA WILSON
Date of Event 13 May 1892
Group Registration ID 2410268
SR District/Reg Area Lurgan
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1892/10632/5873691.pdf
Party 1 Name WILLIAM MCLOUGHLIN
Party 2 Name EMMA CUTHBERT
Date of Event 26 September 1887
Group Registration ID 2424669
SR District/Reg Area Dublin South
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1887/10811/5942873.pdf
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You would think the Emma Cuthbert marriage significant in that her father was named Henry also.
On 'Harry's attestation papers in Canada he gives a birth date of 1.5. 1888 and next of kin Emma Mclaughlin, mother - address Dublin, Ireland.
So it does like like the right marriage for the parents - but the later marriage found by Heywood, with a father William, a tailor confuses things a bit.
Great finds everyone!
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Just to add -- there is no Daniel on the 1901 census record, but maybe Daniel was a cousin or something whom Harry/Henry regarded as a brother! (Yes I know I am making things up now!)
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You would think the Emma Cuthbert marriage significant in that her father was named Henry also.
On 'Harry's attestation papers in Canada he gives a birth date of 1.5. 1888 and next of kin Emma Mclaughlin, mother - address Dublin, Ireland.
So it does like like the right marriage for the parents - but the later marriage found by Heywood, with a father William, a tailor confuses things a bit.
Great finds everyone!
Not really... Heywood married him off in 1926 to Mary Rutledge!
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Yes I know Hallmark -- and that's the spanner in the works!
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In December of 1917 Harry married Hilda Porter of Manchester. Harry was shipped back to Canada 1n 1918 and Hilda arrived in September of 1918 as a War Bride.
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Harry McLaughlin and Hilda Porter married in 1917 at St Peter’s, Levenshulme. The records are not online so the marriage certificate is needed for father’s name and occupation.
There are a couple of Amy Taylors in Worcester but nothing obvious to say they are likely to be a cousin. One is married to a Daniel Taylor though but I could be joining Pennines in flights of fancy there :)
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Harry McLaughlin and Hilda Porter married in 1917 at St Peter’s, Levenshulme. The records are not online so the marriage certificate is needed for father’s name and occupation.
There are a couple of Amy Taylors in Worcester but nothing obvious to say they are likely to be a cousin. One is married to a Daniel Taylor though but I could be joining Pennines in flights of fancy there :)
Enjoy the flights of fancy, hope the carrier doesn't go into Liquidation mid flight... ;D
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Looks like they’re the only flights we’ll be taking for a while ;)
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Here is Harry’s attestation
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=166844
Are the other records mentioned definitely the same Harry?
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Party 1 Name WILLIAM MCLOUGHLIN
Party 2 Name EMMA CUTHBERT
Date of Event 26 September 1887
Group Registration ID 2424669
SR District/Reg Area Dublin South
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1887/10811/5942873.pdf
Name HENRY MCLOUGHLIN
Date of Birth 1889
Group Registration ID 10466026
SR District/Reg Area Dublin North
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1889/02486/1922535.pdf
??
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That rules him out so only 2 possibles left from Marriages posted.... grrr
None in Dublin!!
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I meant the other records mentioned by Kumquat e,g. Brother Daniel and cousin Amy Taylor etc.
I have found William and Emma in England - Salford area in 1911 minus a couple if children.
The missing ones are here in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rotunda/Sherrard_Street__Lower/52336/
Henry’s occupation matches that in the marriage
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Yes they do seem to add up!
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What throws it is
"...In December of 1917 He married Hilda Porter of Manchester. Harry was shipped back to Canada 1n 1918 and Hilda arrived in September of 1918 as a War Bride....."
Marriage Cert to Hilda needed.
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Amy McLaughlin marriage 1946 (parents Harry and Hilda)
Father Harry b Dublin
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVBN-XLNX
Frederick James McLaughlin marriage 1947
Father Harry b Canada :-\ (Presumably an error)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVBN-FN5Q
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Wow -- Heywood and Hallmark I am in awe!
For what it's worth I think the Daniel married to Amy Taylor -- does look a good bet for the 'brother'. Clearly Harry thought an awful lot of his cousin Amy, as a daughter of his was named Amy.
Strange about the discrepancy on his birth date - from the certificate to the one he gives at attestation.
As has been said -- Harry's marriage cert to Hilda is now paramount.
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1921 census gives year of immigration as 1900, his age as 31 yrs which would mean he was 9 yrs on emigration. Why would his mother still be in Dublin :-\
https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?app=Census1921&op=img&id=e002898808
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Frederick James McLaughlin marriage 1947
Father Harry b Canada :-\ (Presumably an error)
Who knows? Maybe he lived happily after!! ;D
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I meant the other records mentioned by Kumquat e,g. Brother Daniel and cousin Amy Taylor etc.
I have found William and Emma in England - Salford area in 1911 minus a couple if children.
The missing ones are here in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rotunda/Sherrard_Street__Lower/52336/
Henry’s occupation matches that in the marriage
On this 1911 Irish census, Henry has given his birthplace as Manchester! Or at least the Head of the House has. There is also someone with Cuthbert as .
a surname - presumably related to Emma Cuthbert. This gets more confusing.
Kumquat, you have not repled yet -- have you been following this correspondence please? It would be useful to know if you have Henry (Harry's) marriage certificate to Hilda - and if so what father's name is shown.
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Hello,
Thank you for your efforts. It has taken me a while to respond because of yesterday's inclement weather ( strong winds and blowing snow ) here in Halifax. I use the Library's computers. I forgot to mention that Daniel, Harry's brother, was living in Worcester in 1918.
I am pretty sure that Mrs. Amy Taylor was Harry's cousin. This information comes straight from one of Harry's granddaughters. I have seen the 1911 census information on Amy and Daniel Taylor. Is it possible to find Amy's maiden name?
I have seen the 1901 and 1911 census information for the Emma McLaughlins, and also the 1921 Canadian census ( Saint John, new Brunswick) for Harry and Hilda.
Harry's wedding certificate thus far has been unavailable. Perhaps lost years ago.
If Harry/Henry was in fact born in 1888 then he would have been about 12 years of age in 1900. I have already checked our Canadian archives to see if he had been a home child. He is not to be found on their list. I have also acquired much information on Hilda Porter and her family. It is Harry's ancestry I am looking for. Harry doesn't seem to have left many footprints. I have also seen a possible birth date for Emma- 1968.
Once again, thank you so much.https://www.rootschat.com/forum/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif
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Here is Amy Taylor in 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7BM-CS8
Using this index, the children have a mother’s maiden name of Price
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
There is a marriage in 1902
December quarter 1902 Worcester 6c 537
Daniel Taylor and Amy Price
As you can see both Daniel and Amy give Worcester as their birthplace.
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Kumquat,
Thanks for coming back.
Is the mention of Daniel in 1918 definitely McLaughlin? Any other details?
Where have you seen the possible birthdate for Emma?
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Re his marriage certificate - see reply #15.
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/marriagesearch.php Shows the marriage was at St Peter’s Levenshulme
https://www.manchester.gov.uk/directory_record/211678/st_peter_levenshulme/category/785/marriages - sadly the record not availsble online nor by visit to the archives
To order a copy of the civil marriage certificate https://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate
The reference is December quarter 1917 Chorlton vol 8c pg 32
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Here is the church
https://stpeterandstmarklevenshulme.org.uk/church-records/
Contact possibly here
https://stpeterandstmarklevenshulme.org.uk/contact/
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Hi Kumquat -- I didn't realise you were having to use a public computer, so I understand the delay.
Your Harry/Henry is a bit of a mystery --- there could be 2 of them, however it would be a big coincidence if there were 2 of them both with a mother's name of Emma.
In addition the date shown on Canadian census records for his immigration in 1900 -- doesn't seem correct, if he is the one on the 1911 Irish census.
Unfortunately his marriage certificate to Hilda would really help - and if you don't have it - would you be prepared to order it from the General Register Office in Southport, Lancashire. It will cost £11 -- and there may be an additional cost for overseas postage (I don't know whether there is or not).
Henry/Harry's father's name will be shown on this certificate -- if this also turns out to be William with the same occupation as on the other marriage - then it looks like Harry may have been a bigamist! If the father is NOT William -- then there are 2 Harry/Henry's around both with a mother Emma!
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I think, though, if it was the same Harry, he would have to marry in Manchester, go to Canada and have children, go back to Ireland to marry and then return to Canada.
I also think occupations were different.
Here is the death of Henry, the Bookbinder.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1962/04311/4111843.pdf
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Kumquat may or may not understand marriage being referred to etc so just posting this beautiful image...
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We have had that before though and it is not the right one.
The marriage is to Hilda Porter in Manchester in 1917 - details given earlier.
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I was beginning to think that Amy Price Taylor was a bit of a red herring as she is in Worcester in 1911 but not sure thereafter.
As seems to be the case in this query, there is also a bit of intrigue around her ::)
She seems to have been born Amy Bond 1880 mmn Sier
1881 census https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27F-57TC Amy Bond with mother Louisa
1891 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7TKP-XW2 Amy Price with mother Louisa
1901 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS3M-SSP Louisa is now with William Abbott
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS3M-SSP
And now there is something of interest (at last :) )
Louisa (Amy’s mother) and William Abbott are here in 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7BM-914
I don’t think I can give you the address as there are restrictions with 1911 census but it is a very similar address to that supplied by Daniel for Amy in 1915.
By the way, you gave ‘Hions Buildings’ , it would be Hirons Buildings.
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http://databases.dublincity.ie/burgesses/browse_years.php
1914
shows
7 Innisfallen Parade
Henry Cuthbert, house and small yard
William McLoughlin, back room
Henry McLoughlin,Parlour
both William and Henry have been crossed off as''objected to''
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Inn_s_Quay/
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I really don’t think the McLaughlin/Cuthbert Family is relevant. That Henry marries and dies in Dublin.
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Going back to Amy Taylor’s family, Louisa (Amy’s mother) and William Abbott married.
William Abbott and Louisa Bond or Siers.
20th December 1891
Whittington,Worcester
Spouse: Louisa Bond Or Siers
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It looks as though Louisa was born Louisa Gyngell 1853 Worcester.
There is a marriage in 1854 Charles Sier and Agnes Gyngell.
The family seem to be established in Worcester although in 1861 are in Manchester.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M783-48T
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I confess to being totally confused now!
I need to take a step back to the Henry/Harry we were looking for - I just find it SO odd that both of them -- on the face of it --- have a mother Emma. Or are we only finding the WRONG Henry in both 1901 and 1911?
The Henry/Harry in Canada has stated HIS mother to be Emma on his attestation papers.
No-one needs to answer this -I just need to go back through the correspondence and get it clear in my head if I can.
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I confess to being totally confused now!
Only now? ;D
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I feel the same and keep wondering if I have got it all wrong so, for some clarity, Here is a ‘quick’ summary.
Firstly Kumquat’s man is Harry McLaughlin
These are the records for the man who is confusing us. They all seem to be for the same man.
Birth of Henry McLoughlin - mother Emma Cuthbert and father William, a Tailor
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1889/02486/1922535.pdf
1901 census Henry McLoughlin 12yrs
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Inns_Quay/St__Ignatius_Road/1325069/
1911 census Henry McLoughlin 22 yrs - a Bookbinder
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rotunda/Sherrard_Street__Lower/52336/
Marriage Henry McLoughlin, Bookbinder - father William, a Tailor
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1926/09119/5298407.pdf
Death Henry McLoughlin - Bookbinder
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1962/04311/4111843.pdf
I hope this helps.
In the beginning, I wondered (and still do) if the records found by Kumquat are for more than one Harry McLaughlin so the chap above might have been involved but they do seem to follow on which would then discount Henry, the Bookbinder.
Oh dear!
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OK Hallmark -- I've been confused for years!
Heywood -- that is SO very good of you to precis the information. I didn't mean anyone to go to all that trouble.
OK. So Henry the Bookbinder has seemingly been sorted out from birth to death and is not the 'Harry' we are looking for.
The mother Emma is still throwing me. I am almost tempted to order Harry and Hilda's marriage cert myself!
(Dathai - thank you for posting the link to the Dublin Electoral Rolls -- very useful site).
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Hello,
I had been leaning toward Emma Cuthbert and William McLaughlin (tailor) as being Harry's parents. Harry of New Brunswick did not return to England after he returned to Canada from the war. So He did not marry in England in 1926. I have not found Canadian immigration records for Harry. I have not found him in the 1901 or the 1911 census of New Brunswick. I have tracked his New Brunswick records through PANB ( Public Archives of New Brunswick ). I am beginning to think he may have been a runaway child. Why give three different names as next of kin? Also, Harry's daughter Amy was named after Hilda's sister Amy porter.
I have been looking for Harry' parents for over two years. Thank you so much for your endeavors, time is precious.
Kumquat
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Do you have copies of the various records?
He signed up with the Canadian Expeditionary Forces on 29 July 1915 in Sussex, New Brunswick. He gave his date of birth as 1 May 1888, Dublin, Ireland. His next of kin was listed as Emma McLaughlin, Sackville Street, Dublin.
This is that record
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=166844
In the before attestation questions Harry gave a Mrs. Amy Taylor ( cousin ) as his next of kin and her address as No. 7 Hions Building, Farrier Street, Worcester, England.
Can you post or quote the part of the record that has the reference to Amy
Amy Taylor’s mother is connected to a similar address
After some months under fire in France he was taken to England for medical treatment. He was deemed unfit to return to the war front. In 1918 while still in England, the Manchester area, he gave a Daniel McLaughlin ( brother ) as his next of kin.
Which record was that? You say that Daniel also had a Worcester connection - any other info?
In December of 1917 He married Hilda Porter of Manchester.
The marriage certificate might (only might) help if it has a father’s name and occupation.
Somehow, he must have been acquainted with Amy Taylor and Worcester to have given those references. :-\
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Kumquat -- would you allow me to obtain the marriage certificate of Harry to Hilda on your behalf please -- as a gift from English Rootschatters to a Canadian one please? It would be my pleasure to do so.
It will take about a week - but we would be able to see who he puts down as his father.
I must confess I am not the brightest technical button in the box -- and also unsure whether I will be allowed to post a copy of it on here as an attachment - or whether it be too large --
Heywood/Hallmark -- do you know if I would be allowed to post a copy marriage cert on here please?
Would really appreciate you letting me know if it's OK for me to order for you as a gift Kumquat. If I can't post an image on here, I can at least report exactly what the certificate says.
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I will pm you, Pennines.
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Hello,
Thanks, but no, do not purchase the marriage certificate. I don't mind paying for things it is just that I am totally unfamiliar with overseas financial transactions. I will try to get my niece to do that for me. I just found a family history on Ancestry, that has some information on Harry. I plugged in Harry's daughter Kathleen McLaughlin born 25 Feb 1925, Saint John, New Brunswick along with her parent's names. I found a Burger Family History. Kathleen had married a Roy Edison Burger. According to this family history, Emma McLoughlin was born about 1868. She married a Mr McLaughlin at age 18 after 1886. It indicates that harry was born 1 May 1891, Dublin, Ireland. It looks like Amy Taylor, born about 1895 in Worcester, Worcestershire, England was a sibling of Emma's. Huge age difference there. Why did Harry refer to her as Mrs. Amy Taylor? It also indicates that Daniel McLaughlin was a sibling Emma's father. This could be helpful but I am skeptical. My library has a library edition of Ancestry but you must be at the library to access it.
Thanks again,
Kumquat.
cLoughlin was born about 1868
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I have seen that tree and to be honest, I think the ‘facts’ have been assumed from Harry’s paperwork which you have referenced already.
You could try emailing the church where Harry and Hilda married to see if the records are there. Often, there is no reply but sometimes, there might be one. You never know.
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Kumquat -- please believe me when I say I never thought that you may not wish to purchase a certificate.
My only reason for offering to do it for you, was that it would be much easier for me, as I have ordered certificates in England many times -- and I am over here. I also was under the impression you were using a public computer.
No offence was intended at all and if I upset you by the suggestion -- please forgive me. I made the offer with the best of intentions.
If your niece is to order it she will need to go to the following website;
https://www.gov.uk/general-register-office
She will then need to register.
Go to 'order certificates on line'
Place an order
Commence filling the application form
The details of the marriage are;
Year of Event; 1917
Name; Harry McLaughlin
Quarter; Dec
District Name; Chorlton
Volume Number; 8c
Page Number; 1232
Then simply check out after giving card details.
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Hello,
No, Pennines, I was not at all offended by your offer, in fact I thank you. I have printed off the information you gave as to how my niece can proceed. Today , because of the Covid-19 problem we have limited access to the computers here. Things are shutting down and by Monday it will likely be open only for pickups and drop offs. Since I am well into my 8th decade this will be my last day here for awhile since I believe in following the dictates of our health department. Libraries have been completely closed in other provinces.
I am not giving up on Harry and will be back online when we get the green light.
If Amy Taylor was living in the same neighborhood as her mother, who was her mother?
Bye For Now,
Kumqyat
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Hi Kumquat
Do take care of yourself. They are anxious times for us all.
In Reply # 37 I have listed the references to Amy Taylor and her mother. It is quite complex.
1880 Amy Bond mmn Sier
1881 Amy Bond 1yr with mother Louisa Bond housekeeper to Gregory Price
1891 Amy Price with her mother Louisa Price
1901 Louisa Price is now married to William Abbott
In 1911 Louisa Price (Amy Price Taylor's mother) is living at an address very close to the one you have for Amy Taylor.
Hope to hear from you soon, when all is well.
Heywood
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Hi Kumquat,
May I firstly add my best wishes over this difficult time to those expressed by Heywood.
We are in a similar situation in the UK -- and all people over the age of 70 are being classed as 'vulnerable'!! I prefer to think of us as mature and sensible!
Having looked at Amy Taylor's background on the census and birth records there is no obvious family link to Harry McLaughlin. Nor is there an immediately obvious Irish link to Amy's family.
I am wondering if Harry and Daniel met up during WW1 and became really close friends and if Harry was 'estranged' from his own family - he used his friends' names as 'next of kin'. (I am going off into the realms of fantasy again!!)
Or does Daniel have a family link to Harry - we may just need to look back at him.
Hopefully the marriage certificate may reveal clues - father's name and maybe the witness names. Fingers crossed.
Take care and we look forward to hearing from you whenever you are able to get back into the library.
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Hi Everyone i just came across this site when I googled my Mothers name McLaughlin to my surprise you are all looking for my family as well. After all these years. Thank you for searching and not giving up.
Harry McLaughlin and Hilda porter were my Grand Parents. my My Mothers name was Kathleen McLaughlin and my Fathers name Roy Edison Burger from New Brunswick Canada.