RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: YrElldee on Sunday 08 March 20 08:30 GMT (UK)
-
I'm researching 5 houses that were buried under the slate tips of Penrhyn Quarry near the old hospital. I'm particularly interested in photos and information about Traws(Tros) y ffordd, Ty'n y coed, Bryn Llwyd and Mount Pleasant. There was a second Bryn Llwyd - a terrace similar to those at Caeberllan or Grisiau Cochion and it was very near the hospital.
I would also be interested in the area north of Llyn Meurig called Bryn Llys which was near Lon Goch (near Grisiau Cochion). This is near the original St Ann's church built in 1812 and was also buried.
-
Hi Yr Elldee,
Just and addendum; I thought St Ann's Church was built in the 1700s. My grandfather, John Henry Roberts, was a pupil of Evan Thomas, organist at St Ann's in the mid-1800s, and often sat alongside him at church services. My grandfather (still in his early teens) went on to become organist at Shiloh Wesleryan Methodist Chapel in Tregarth. He had also started his career as a composer. He later went to work at Bryneglwys Quarry in Meriomethshire, formed a quarry choir and won many prizes at the Harlech Music Festival. He then went to the RAM in London, graduated and returned to his native Caernarvonshire. He was admitted to the Gorsedd in the 1870s, taking the name Pencerdd Gwynedd. He had a long and distinguished career as a composer and church organist, dying in Liverpool in 1924.
The last service at St Ann's was on September 3 1865.
-
Thank you for your very informative message about the original St Ann's Church.
I have some evidence that it was built in about 1812 St Ann's Centenary Souvenir; Gwynedd Family History Soc. Memorial Inscriptions No M396. The 1st incumbent was Morris Hughes (1812-1860). However, I have the same doubts as you when you consider that it was named after the wife of Richard Pennant, Anne Susannah Warburton (1745-1814) and Richard had died in 1808 so it's a bit late to build it in 1812 when George Hay Dawkins had inherited the estate by then. Do you have concrete evidence? I also think the vicarage was the large house called Bryn Llys - just below Lon Goch and it was inhabited in the 1881 census by David Pritchard - a quarry agent, with his wife, family and 3 servants.
Thank you too for the information about your grandfather. The M396 lists the following organists/choirmasters but has no dates: Evan W Thomas Ty'n Clwt uchaf and later of Bangor, John Hughes - son of the above - (Eos Ceraint), Tai Duon, Coed y parc, Johnny Hughes, Cherry Cottage, Bryn Eglwys, Thomas Jones, Penygroes, Tregarth, Edmund Vale, Bethesda and William baden Powell Evans, Coed y parc in 1965.
Any additional information of the area would be most welcome.
Diolch.
-
Hi YrElldee,
Located all the places you are researching on a late 1800s map, and also traced Traws y fford and Bryn Llwyd on the 1841 census - enumerator's handwriting appalling - will search for the others.
Getting their history may be more difficult, but...
Have unearthed a copy of a pen and ink drawing of St Ann's Church "drawn shortly after it was built in the late 1700s", so that is confirmation of its construction.
-
When were the cottages buried? Tracking them on old maps (earliest 1888) they still appear in 1948.
-
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=17&lat=53.16895&lon=-4.06165&layers=6&right=BingHyb
Checked old maps "side by side" against current map.
-
Hi Quarryman,
A drawing of the original St Ann's church; is there anyway you can display it here? I'd love to see it. There's a slate engraving of the church from 1836 in this article in Hanes Dyffryn Ogwen:[/
https://hanesdyffrynogwen.wordpress.com/2016/12/31/llyn-meurig/
It appears with a tower but without transepts. Does your picture correspond and do you know when it was drawn?
The chronology of the buried houses can be determined from the 1848 Penrhyn Tithe map, the OS maps and the censuses from 1841 to 1939. The area can be divided into 2 for clarity. First, South of Llyn Meurig and nearest the hospital: these were Hall, Bryn Llwyd1 and Dol y Parc which went between 1881 - 91. Further south were Traws y Ffordd, Ty'n y Coed, Bryn Llwyd2, Mount Pleasant and the hospital. Ty'n y Coed went first in about 1960 then the others during mid-60s when McAlpine modernised the quarry. The hospital was partly demolished in 1978.
The 2nd area is north of Llyn Meurig called Bryn Llys. It's difficult to give dates because there were no names to the 11 or so houses in the area but it's safe to assume those closest to the tips went first. This was St Ann, then the houses along the Pennant road and finally the large house near Grisiau Cochion called Bryn Llys. This was probably the original vicarage and was last occupied in the 1881 census. The very last house was on Lon Goch; last lived in by brother and sister: Moses and Jane Jones (1939 register). It's a ruin now and I was there before the present curfew!
-
Hi YrElldee,
Managed to put the picture of St Ann's on the computer - will now try and get it to you somehow. Not tech savvy enough to pin it to a RootsChat message! How do I do that? Could try and send it to you as an email attachment if you give me an email address. The drawing blown up shows the church with what I presume is the vicarage next to it and another house close by. The configuration tallies with that of the church and vicarage on the 1841 tithe map.
There is another puzzle that has just been thrown up - I have discovered another very poor (almost indistinguishable) drawning of a "Llandegai Church" which looks, as far as I can make out, similar to the St Ann's drawing, but the caption says it is of a 14th century church.
Was there a 14th century church in Llandegai?
Regards,
Quarryman
-
To add a photo .. ''click on Reply'' box. Underneath is ''Attachments and other objects'' Clicking this brings up ''Attach'' with a browse box to search your comp for the photo you want to post.
I've added a postcard of Bethesda 1905
-
Yr Elldee,
Hope this reaches you
-
Thank you so much for the photos.
The picture is of Llandegai Church. I'm assuming you haven't posted St Ann's yet but you say they are similar?
Llandegai does go back to the 15th c as there's a tomb of John William (Archbishop of York) of Cochwillan (1581-1650). The picture you have is from the north side of Llandegai and you can see in the distance the Great Orme and Penmaenmawr. What's interesting is the circular wall surrounding the church and the door arch in the south nave which are not there today.
Thanks for the Bethesda picture; I've not seen this before. It's opposite the police station and near Bethesda Chapel and 'siop no 1'.
-
Hi YrElldee,
You have made things a lot (unfortunately) clearer; the picture I sent you is the oriiginal 'St Ann's' drawing I have - but the caption definitely says "St Ann's Church drawn shortly after it was built in 1786"! However, have run it through a L5 spectroscope enhancer we have and you can definitely see the great Orme and sea in the background. Damn! Also put the second drawing through our technology, but it only makes things worse - however, it does appear to be somewhat similar. Only wish the slate etching was clearer, but will try and get a print and run it through our technology.
The only other thing I will pursue is to see if the Penrhyn archives at Bangor University have a drawing of At Ann's. A forlorn hope I fear.
Still that's what make historical research so fascinating.
-
This is near the original St Ann's church built in 1812 and was also buried.
Y Dysgedydd crefyddol, 1 Oct 1908 (a monthly Welsh language religious periodical)
HISTORY OF A RELIGIOUS CAUSE IN THE PARISHES OF LLANLLECHID AND LLANDEGAI, ARFON
1813
St Ann's was built in the Parish of Llandegai close to Penrhyn quarry by the widow of the first Lord of Penrhyn**. In later years the Lady made a gift of a beautiful organ to the Church, which is now in the new St. Ann's. Since there was a need for the ground the old St. Ann's was on for the quarry waste, the grandfather of the present Lord built the new St. Ann's and Vicarage. I understand the cost was £6,500. Seats 400.
(** - died 1808)
-
Diolch yn fawr iawn!!
This is the evidence I was hoping would appear to confirm St Ann's was built between 1812-13. I can't thank you enough for your diligent research. How can I locate this publication? The 1st vicar was appointed in 1912.
Anna Susannah Warburton was the wife of Richard Pennant and she died in 1816 so there might be a will in the Penrhyn Papers in Bangor Uni. Archives (sadly closed for now) which shows she carried out Richard's wishes.
Thanks too for the information about the organ. The organ in Llandegai church came from Penrhyn Castle and is on the west gallery. The casework was designed by Thomas Hopper, the castle's builder but we don't know who made the organ itself. It might be that the original St Ann's church was designed by either Samuel or Benjamin Wyatt in the style of Llandegai. Here's a slate engraving of it in 1836 and shows a tower but no transepts:
-
Sorry: 1st vicar was 1812.
-
Hi Yr Elldee,
Confused about your mention of Penmaenmawr and the Great Orme in drawing.I may be wrtong, but I don't think you can see either from anywhere in Llandygai. Artistic licence perhaps.
-
Croeso.
Welsh Journals online (safle ardderchog!!) https://journals.library.wales
I put "st ann's" (include the " " as part of key) in "Search" - 356 hits.
I then put llandegai (" " not required) in "Search within these results" - 37 hits
The Dysgedydd crefyddol item is the first listed - click on title "Hen.Gyf......" "underlined)
Pob lwc
cofion cynnes
-
Hi Yr Elldee,
I think I have solved my St Ann's riddle ; the drawing I have, although it says it is St Ann's, built in the 1700s, and buried under the Penrhyn quarry spoil tips, is obviously that of St Tegai in Llandygai Village - although I still don't think you can see Penmaenmawr or the Great Orme, or the River Conway, from the church as the artist does!
Ecclesiastical records show it 'my' St Ann's was completed by 1807 (the year before Richard Pennant' death) and consecrated in 1813.
Apparently there is a large Pennant memorial in St Tegai's which also commemorates the building of the original St Ann's, and may show the church.
One remaining puzzle; I have an old map which shows a 'disused' church close to the quarry at Tan-ysgrafel. Do you know what that church was?
I think I have run out of sources for a drawing of the original St Ann's, but hope springs eternal.
Thanks to everyone who provided information.
-
When I'm allowed into St Tegai, I'll look for these references, thank you.
Tanysgrafell is indeed a ruined church. It was built as a mortuary Chapel and its graveyard was open in 1848 with the last burial in 1813. The building was used as a Sunday School until the '40s. It was used in conjunction with St Anns (both). There are about 260 graves still there and in a dreadful state with trees growing through them; an absolute jungle!
GLAN MEURIG
Does anyone have any information on this terrace of 6 houses which were on the B4409, between Bont Twr and Grisiau Cochion?
I have gone through the censuses from 1841 and they were uninhabited in the 1911 summary books. They weren't buried under the tips and I guess that were simply demolished either to widen the road or that they were too dilapidated.
-
Just in case anyone is interested in the Tanysgafell memorials I spent 3 days in the 3 consecutive Springs photographing all that were available and have transcribed them. I still have the photos. The transcriptions are on my website which I have started to put back online. The church was demolished in the mid 60s I think because it was suspected that a black coven was holding meetings there.
I've visited Llandegai quite a lot to look up headstones for anyone that needs one and I can confirm you cannot see the Orme from it.
-
The Gwynedd Family History Society have also done it: M270 has a comprehensive list of graves and memorials. I guess you helped compile this?
Incidentally, the mill on the Afon Galedffrwd by Afon Ogwen is now converted into a dwelling. There's also a trial adit to the left of Pont Sarnau on the path that leads past the ruined church.
-
Thank you for your very informative message about the original St Ann's Church.
I have some evidence that it was built in about 1812 St Ann's Centenary Souvenir; Gwynedd Family History Soc. Memorial Inscriptions No M396. The 1st incumbent was Morris Hughes (1812-1860). However, I have the same doubts as you when you consider that it was named after the wife of Richard Pennant, Anne Susannah Warburton (1745-1814) and Richard had died in 1808 so it's a bit late to build it in 1812 when George Hay Dawkins had inherited the estate by then. Do you have concrete evidence? I also think the vicarage was the large house called Bryn Llys - just below Lon Goch and it was inhabited in the 1881 census by David Pritchard - a quarry agent, with his wife, family and 3 servants.
Diolch.
I am not sure if you are still looking into this? if not I am sorry for reviving and old thread.
The vicarage of St Ann's Church was not the house called Bryn Llys. The Vicarage was actually called a parsonage and was also buried under the slate quarry spoils.
On the tithe map it is number 13 with St Ann's Church and Yard being number 9.
The occupier of the Parsonage is Reverend Morris Hughes,who as you know was the first incumbent at St Ann's.
-
Way back in March 2020, YrElldee asked about the houses buried in Penrhyn Quarry and mentioned Brynllwyd and Mount Pleasant. According to the book "The Penrhyn Quarry Hospital at Brynllwyd" is now a ruin and Mount Pleasant was demolished to make way for the new quarry approach road in 1971. neither are buried under slate tips. The book includes illustrations of both houses.
-
Hi I am trying to find information about a William parry born 1805 who was a parish clerk for st Ann’s church and lived in the parish clerks cottage. Does anyone have any information on him or the house? He was parish clerk between 1839 and 1881 and was also a quarryman