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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: MattD30 on Sunday 08 March 20 22:33 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone check for a marriage of a Thomas Hards to a Mary sometime between the 1650s and 1664 in the Hartfield or Withyham areas. Thomas was born in Hartfield in February 1635/36 and was the son of Edmund Hards.
Also can anyone check for either a christening of Edmund Hards sometime around the 1590s or 1600s, or a marriage for Edmund Hards in the Hartfield area before 1627? His first child [Philip] was christened in May 1627.
Many thanks for any ideas or suggestions.
Matt
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Hello Matt
Lewis Marriage Licence
24 Sept 1624
Edmund Hards,Woollen Draper from Hartfield
Elizabeth Woodgate,SP from Speldhurst, Kent
There is no marriage from Thomas that early on SMI
omega
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Hello Matt
Lewis Marriage Licence
24 Sept 1624
Edmund Hards,Woollen Draper from Hartfield
Elizabeth Woodgate,SP from Speldhurst, Kent
There is no marriage from Thomas that early on SMI
omega
Hi omega
Thanks that's brilliant.
Matt
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Hello Matt
Lewis Marriage Licence
24 Sept 1624
Edmund Hards,Woollen Draper from Hartfield
Elizabeth Woodgate,SP from Speldhurst, Kent
There is no marriage from Thomas that early on SMI
omega
Hi omega
Thanks again for the info on Edmund, I've now found what looks like the christening of Elizabeth Woodgate in the parish of Penshurst (just 2 miles from Speldhurst).
I've spotted something which looks odd with the date though. The Licence date is given as 24 September 1624 but the date of the marriage is down as 23 September 1624 on Findmypast. Do you think both should be 24 September?
Btw is there any sign of a marriage for Thomas Hards/Hardes to a Mary between 1660 and 1670? His first child was christened in 1663/64 at Withyham so the marriage may have taken there.
Many thanks again for the info on Edmund.
Matt
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Hello Matt
The 1st marriage for a Thomas on SMI is 1700.
omega
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Hello Matt
The 1st marriage for a Thomas on SMI is 1700.
omega
Hi
Many thanks.
Matt
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????
marriage,11.11.1684 thomas hards=mary laurance, at godstone st nickolas, surrey.
bapts 10.5.1689 thomas hards, at edburton sussex, son william/margaret.
Margaret.
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SMI Sussex Marriage Index
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Link to Lewes Marriage Licence Register, Hards + Woodgate, 24 Sep 1624, here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D1GQ-TBJ?cat=604174
And the main bits transcribed here :)
https://archive.org/details/calendarofsussex01chicuoft/page/144/mode/2up
BT for Withyham does indeed say the marriage was on the 23 Sep (Edmund is Edward on this)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DTS3-NC9?i=121&cat=586259
His first child was christened in 1663/64 at Withyham so the marriage may have taken there.
Matt, bear in mind that the Withyham parish registers only seem to survive back to 1663 (some say 1661, a few baptisms for that year are recorded)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XCQ3-B36?i=6&cat=244587
There is the usual gap in the BT's as well, so if the marriage of Thomas and Mary was at Withyham it may be lost. I guess there might also be a possibility of one or two earlier baptisms there?
John
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????
marriage,11.11.1684 thomas hards=mary laurance, at godstone st nickolas, surrey.
bapts 10.5.1689 thomas hards, at edburton sussex, son william/margaret.
Margaret.
Hi Margaret
Thanks for those. I'm not sure who these two are though, or if they could be the Thomas and Mary I'm looking for. The christenings of Thomas and Mary's children took place between 1663/64 and 1669 in Withyham and Thomas himself was christened in Hartfield in February 1635/36.
Were those dates correct or should they have been earlier?
Alternatively could this be a different Hards family?
Matt
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Link to Lewes Marriage Licence Register, Hards + Woodgate, 24 Sep 1624, here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D1GQ-TBJ?cat=604174
And the main bits transcribed here :)
https://archive.org/details/calendarofsussex01chicuoft/page/144/mode/2up
BT for Withyham does indeed say the marriage was on the 23 Sep (Edmund is Edward on this)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DTS3-NC9?i=121&cat=586259
His first child was christened in 1663/64 at Withyham so the marriage may have taken there.
Matt, bear in mind that the Withyham parish registers only seem to survive back to 1663 (some say 1661, a few baptisms for that year are recorded)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XCQ3-B36?i=6&cat=244587
There is the usual gap in the BT's as well, so if the marriage of Thomas and Mary was at Withyham it may be lost. I guess there might also be a possibility of one or two earlier baptisms there?
John
Hi John
Thanks for those bits of info and also the links which were a great help. I wasn't sure how early the registers for Withyham survived but I had guessed they might not be much earlier than the 1660s. The interesting thing is that the licence says Elizabeth was "of Speldhurst, co Kent" and on the BT entry it says she was "of Withiam". I wonder why that is?
Matt
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Hi Matt
That is a good point! I don't really know why Elizabeth's residence should differ on those two records. Unless perhaps she was usually of Withyham, but resident in Speldhurst at the time of the marriage, but Withyham "ignored" this fact when recording it.
There are a few wills of Woodgates of Withyham proved in the PCC.
A quick skim, William Woodgate, yeoman, proved 1623, has a daughter Elizabeth.
Another one, William Woodgate, yeoman, proved 1649. Does he have a brother in law Edmund Hards?
John
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Hi Matt
That is a good point! I don't really know why Elizabeth's residence should differ on those two records. Unless perhaps she was usually of Withyham, but resident in Speldhurst at the time of the marriage, but Withyham "ignored" this fact when recording it.
There are a few wills of Woodgates of Withyham proved in the PCC.
A quick skim, William Woodgate, yeoman, proved 1623, has a daughter Elizabeth.
Another one, William Woodgate, yeoman, proved 1649. Does he have a brother in law Edmund Hards?
John
Hi John
Elizabeth appears to have been christened in Penshurst in Kent, which is 2 miles from Speldhurst [literally right next door] in 1598. I'm guessing that maybe she was living in Withyham for a while before the marriage but when the licence was applied for she stated where she had lived before or where she had moved from.
I think checking out any wills in the PCC or Kent courts is definitely the next step.
Matt
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Hi Matt
That is a good point! I don't really know why Elizabeth's residence should differ on those two records. Unless perhaps she was usually of Withyham, but resident in Speldhurst at the time of the marriage, but Withyham "ignored" this fact when recording it.
There are a few wills of Woodgates of Withyham proved in the PCC.
A quick skim, William Woodgate, yeoman, proved 1623, has a daughter Elizabeth.
Another one, William Woodgate, yeoman, proved 1649. Does he have a brother in law Edmund Hards?
John
I found three or four wills for Woodgates in Penshurst today, all proved in the PCC. There is a Thomas Woodgate who died in 1660 who may be Elizabeth's brother [I can't see her name in his Will but she did have a brother named Thomas], and another for an Anne Woodgate [widow] in 1680. Before that there is a Fortune Woodgate leaving a Will in 1645 and obviously he might be from an earlier generation, possibly Thomas' father. The odd thing is that a search of the PCC for Woodgate wills in Penshurst gives two results for Fortune Woodgate. There is one listed for a "Fortuneius Woodgate" and a one for "Fortune Woodgate". As the probate dates are the same I assume they are the same man, but the first will seems to be longer than the second.
Matt
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Hi Matt
Could Thomas Woodgate have moved from Penshurst to Withyham? :-\
Between 1596 and 1606 in Penshurst there are baptisms to Thomas Woodgate of
Margaret, Elizabeth, Thomas, Anna, Philip (Phillis on FamilySearch)
Then in Withyham (from BT's)
Edward in 1607/8
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DTS3-FBB?i=95&cat=586259
and Robert in 1610.
I am not entirely convinced by this, the big problem is that Withyham BT's start in 1606, and with there being no parish register, we don't know what was going on there before then.
Also, we may need a William in the family.
It seems to me that William Woodgate of Withyham, in his will of 1649 names brother in law Edmond Hards. And seven children of Edmond (for most of whom, not all, I can see possible baptisms in Hartfield), Margarett, John, William, Thomas, Robert, James, and Elizabeth.
William's loving wife is Anne. Father in law William ?? of Penshurst?
Other highlights!
Brother Thomas Woodgate.
Brother John Woodgate, who has three daughters, a son John.
One of William's sisters had married a Benjamin - could that be Jessop (as per baptisms in Withyham?) - not good at reading these names!
Another sister had married an Edward F..., two children, Edward and Elizabeth. Could that name be Fry(e), there might be baptisms in Penshurst.
Not finding the marriages!
John
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Hi Matt
Could Thomas Woodgate have moved from Penshurst to Withyham? :-\
Between 1596 and 1606 in Penshurst there are baptisms to Thomas Woodgate of
Margaret, Elizabeth, Thomas, Anna, Philip (Phillis on FamilySearch)
Then in Withyham (from BT's)
Edward in 1607/8
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DTS3-FBB?i=95&cat=586259
and Robert in 1610.
I am not entirely convinced by this, the big problem is that Withyham BT's start in 1606, and with there being no parish register, we don't know what was going on there before then.
Also, we may need a William in the family.
It seems to me that William Woodgate of Withyham, in his will of 1649 names brother in law Edmond Hards. And seven children of Edmond (for most of whom, not all, I can see possible baptisms in Hartfield), Margarett, John, William, Thomas, Robert, James, and Elizabeth.
William's loving wife is Anne. Father in law William ?? of Penshurst?
Other highlights!
Brother Thomas Woodgate.
Brother John Woodgate, who has three daughters, a son John.
One of William's sisters had married a Benjamin - could that be Jessop (as per baptisms in Withyham?) - not good at reading these names!
Another sister had married an Edward F..., two children, Edward and Elizabeth. Could that name be Fry(e), there might be baptisms in Penshurst.
Not finding the marriages!
John
Hi John
Thanks for the message and the extra info. I guess it is possible that Thomas Woodgate moved to Withyham, after all it might explain how come Elizabeth married a man from Hartfield.
I don't have my notes on the family with me at the moment [I've just finished work and I'm sat in a coffee shop waiting for a train lol!] but I will go through my notes on the Hards and also the Woodgate tree when I am back home and I'll be back in touch. Some of the names you listed look familiar. I am certain that there is a Philip Hards somewhere in the family [possibly one of Edmond's grandchildren] but I will need to check.
Where is William Woodgate's will? Was that proved in the PCC? If you have a copy is it possible to send it to me, or if not I can get it tomorrow. Oddly when I searched for Woodgate wills on the National Archives website they all come up as "Woodgate" yet on Ancestry "Anne Woodgate" has been listed was as something completely different, Wodlate I think [you'd need to check for her]. I only found her will as I knew the date of probate lol!!
Anyhow I will be in touch again later. Thanks again for the help.
Matt
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Hi Matt
Yes, it is a PCC will on ancestry. But let me know if you can't get hold of it.
Is also on TNA, can see bits of it with their image viewer (watermarked)
Will of William Woodgate, Yeoman of Withyham, Sussex
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D862617
John
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Hi Matt
Yes, it is a PCC will on ancestry. But let me know if you can't get hold of it.
Is also on TNA, can see bits of it with their image viewer (watermarked)
Will of William Woodgate, Yeoman of Withyham, Sussex
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D862617
John
Hi John
Thanks for that, I'll be able to get a copy of the will tomorrow.
Looking at the info you sent and the details I have it seems that there is definitely a link, however I have different children listed for Edmond and only six. The children I have are as follows:
Philip - born May 1627 Hartfield, Sussex
John - born May 1628 Hartfield, Sussex
Elizabeth - born April 1630 Hartfield, Sussex
William - born November 1634 Hartfield, Sussex
Thomas - born February 1636 Hartfield, Sussex [my ancestor]
Richard - born May 1639 Hartfield, Sussex
As you can seen we both have these names in our lists of children for Edmund/Edmond
John, William, Thomas, and Elizabeth. Yet you have a Margaret, a Robert, and a James who I don't have and I have names you don't have. What are the dates of those three children [Margaret, Robert and James]?
Another interesting fact is that Edmund Hards son, Thomas, was christening his children in Withyham in the 1660s so they definitely appeared to have moved between the parishes.
The christening of Elizabeth Woodgate in Penshurst in 1598 appears [so far] to be the only suitable candidate for the Elizabeth who married Edmund Hards given that it is only 2 miles from the parish of Speldhurst which were Elizabeth was apparently living at the time of her marriage to Edmund.
I will see what else I can find out tomorrow.
Matt
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Hi Matt
I agree that the Elizabeth baptized in Penshurst in 1598 is the likeliest candidate. There do appear to be links between the Woodgates there and those in Withyham.
I see that with Hartfield, where the Hardes were, we are also dependent on BT's for the period in question! Looking at your list (could Margaret in the will be the eldest child, born sometime before Philip?)
Philip seems to have been buried in May 1627, so just a few days after he was baptized.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DBRQ-QKB
Elizabeth 1630, a possible burial in 1634 (so there must have been another one, if this is the family in William Woodgate's will)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J8D4-2XW
In between is an Edmund, bap 23 Dec 1632 (what happened to him?)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DBRQ-792
There is a Robert, bap 19 May 1639
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DBRQ-QHR
So if Elizabeth is about 41 years old then, she just might have had a couple more children, James and a second Elizabeth? :-\ Young Edmund might have died?
Margarett, John, William, Thomas, Robert, James, and Elizabeth.
I tend to think, when they list children like that in a will, they usually do it by age.
Do we presume that Edmund's wife Elizabeth also must have died when that will was written?
John
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Hi Matt
I agree that the Elizabeth baptized in Penshurst in 1598 is the likeliest candidate. There do appear to be links between the Woodgates there and those in Withyham.
I see that with Hartfield, where the Hardes were, we are also dependent on BT's for the period in question! Looking at your list (could Margaret in the will be the eldest child, born sometime before Philip?)
Philip seems to have been buried in May 1627, so just a few days after he was baptized.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DBRQ-QKB
Elizabeth 1630, a possible burial in 1634 (so there must have been another one, if this is the family in William Woodgate's will)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J8D4-2XW
In between is an Edmund, bap 23 Dec 1632 (what happened to him?)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DBRQ-792
There is a Robert, bap 19 May 1639
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DBRQ-QHR
So if Elizabeth is about 41 years old then, she just might have had a couple more children, James and a second Elizabeth? :-\ Young Edmund might have died?
Margarett, John, William, Thomas, Robert, James, and Elizabeth.
I tend to think, when they list children like that in a will, they usually do it by age.
Do we presume that Edmund's wife Elizabeth also must have died when that will was written?
John
Hi John
Just a quick reply here as I'm in a coffee shop having lunch before work. I have downloaded a copy of the will of William Woodgate and I have also found another one for a William Woodgate of Withyham who died in 1623. I've downloaded that one as well in case of a link.
I've now found some more info which which indicates that there is definitely a link between the Woodgates found in Penshurst, and those in Withyham, and the Hardes found in Hartfield and Withyham.
When Edmund and Elizabeth were married in 1624 [at Withyham] one of the surities of "Robert Saxpes of Hartfield, gent".
There is also a marriage in 1608 [again by licence] for a William Woodgate of Withiam, and "Elizabeth Saxpes of Speldherst, co Kent, widow"
Given that Speldherst is literally next to Penshurst I wonder if Elizabeth was from that area, and was Robert Saxpes her brother in law [ie her husband's brother]. Could this Elizabeth be a Woodgate? This William appears to be the one who died in 1624 [as he mentions his wife Elizabeth in the will]. Could this William be an uncle of the William you found? Could he be an uncle of the Elizabeth who married Robert Hardes?
I'll give the wills a look through today and I will be in touch at some point later on.
Best Wishes
Matt
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Hi
I'm posting this as an update here rather than starting a new thread. I recently came across the 1649 Will of William Woodgate of Withyham and it's confirmed most of what we previously thought on here but also thrown up a few questions.
In his will William mentions the following people:
Edmond Hards - his brother in law
Elizabeth Hards - Edmond's wife and Williams's sister
Margaret Hards, John Hards, William Hards, Thomas Hards, Robert Hards, James Hards, Elizabeth Hards, Richard Hards - all described as his nieces or nephews and children of Edmond.
Benjamin Jessop - his brother in law
Anne Woodgate - his wife
John Woodgate and Thomas Woodgate - his brothers
He also mentions "Edward Frye's children, Edward and Elizabeth, which he had by my sister" and also "John and Robert sons of Robert Saxpes which he had by my sister" and an aunt whose name may be Alice Burges [there is a marriage in 1605 for Alice Woodgate and Robert Burges in Buxted].
This William is clearly the brother of Elizabeth who married Edmond Hards as so many bits of info add up. I have the christenings for John Hards, William Hards, Thomas Hards, and Elizabeth Hards but not Margaret, Robert, James or Edmund jnr.
Also I wonder who Benjamin Jessop was? So far I can't find a Woodgate/Jessop marriage but I have spotted a possible link. There is a marriage licence entry in 1624 for William Woodgate of "Withiham" and Mary Rogers [of the same place] and one of the sureties named in it is a Joseph Jessop.
The other puzzle is who is the aunt Alice mentioned?
I've also now managed to get copies of a number of Woodgate wills ranging in date from 1580 to 1630 and I'm slowly building up a picture of them. There seems to possibly be a link with East Grinstead as well.
Off to look through the 1623 will of William Woodgate next so more news later.
Matt