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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: Olicana on Friday 13 March 20 22:03 GMT (UK)
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Margaret Thom was born in Scotland abt 1857/8. Her father was John Thom, a joiner.
She married a Mr Hawkins but was already a widow by 1881.
On the 1881 census, Margaret (aged 23) was a visitor to George and Mary Thom in Salford, Lancashire, England. George was most likely a brother or maybe a cousin. He was born in Scotland abt 1853/4, as was his wife, Mary, and he was a policeman. They had two small children, also born in Scotland, so it appears they had recently moved to Salford. Margaret's marriage therefore most likely took place between 1875 and 1881 in Scotland.
Any help in finding Margaret's birth, her mother and details of her marriage to Mr Hawkins would be much appreciated. Thank you :)
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Don't know if this could be George Thom baptism 20 Jul 1853
Born 27 Jun 1853 Cullen Banff Scotland
father John Thom mother Margt Goodbrand
Does the family stay in England? If so later census may give a more exact birthplace.
Also for Margaret as I see she remarried in 1884 but died before 1891?
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Robert Hawkins married Maggie Thom, st giles, Edinburgh, 1875
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THOM MAGGIE to HAWKINS ROBERT 1875 685/4 197 St Giles
No death for a Robert in Scotland 1875-1881.
Jamjar
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1871 Scotland :-\
John Thom 53
Margaret 56
George 17
William A 15
Jane Taylor 27 daughter
Mary J 6
Isabella H 4
John 1
Margaret Thom 13 granddaughter born Grange Banff
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One census has birthplace Rathven Banffshire for George.
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Possible marriage in Edinburgh:
MAGGIE THOM and ROBERT HAWKINS
1875
685/4 197
St Giles
You can view the original image on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk Pay to view but costs are very reasonable. Scottish marriages include mother and father's name for bride and groo,.
Monica
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There's a Robert Hawkins death in Manchester Jun 1878 age 37 may or may not be the right one.
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There are three Margarets born around the same time in Banff that could fit (parent not John though)
Bullen Banff 1856 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYR7-V5N
Rathven Banff 1858 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY56-CLZ
Grange Banff 1859 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYGV-KS9... fits with Milliepede's 1861 entry
Monica
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I think this is the marriage of George in Edinburgh:
GEORGE THOM and MARY KIRK HODGE
1876
685/1 226
St George
Again, you can view the image of the marriage on Scotlands People.
This is confirmation of George's wife's surname from the birth of their daughter Margaret in Salford in 1883:
THOM, MARGARET GOODBRANDT
Mother's Maiden Surname: HODGE
GRO Reference: 1883 M Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 182
1891 family entry www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:788Z-T6Z which you have I am sure but adding just for background here.
Monica
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There are three Margarets born around the same time in Banff that could fit (parent not John though)
Bullen
Er .... typo for Cullen?
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Thank you all for your help :)
Does the family stay in England? If so later census may give a more exact birthplace
Also for Margaret as I see she remarried in 1884 but died before 1891?
Yes, but later censuses and marriage only say born in Scotland.
1871 Scotland :-\
John Thom 53
Margaret 56
George 17
William A 15
Jane Taylor 27 daughter
Mary J 6
Isabella H 4
John 1
Margaret Thom 13 granddaughter born Grange Banff
George and Margaret's ages match the 1881 census, but the Margaret born in Grange Banff has father Alexander.....according to her 1884 marriage certificate, her father is John :-\ She did however have a son named Alexander....
This is confirmation of George's wife's surname from the birth of their daughter Margaret in Salford in 1883:
THOM, MARGARET GOODBRANDT
Mother's Maiden Surname: HODGE
GRO Reference: 1883 M Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 182
Yes, Margaret's middlename ties in with George's mother's maiden name on his baptism: father John Thom mother Margt Goodbrand
and the 1881 census also had a visitor named Elizabeth Hodge aged 56, most probably Mary's mother.
Perhaps Margaret's parents died when she was a child and her grandparents brought her up... ???
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Perhaps Margaret's parents died when she was a child and her grandparents brought her up... ???
Well, once you have looked at her marriage certificcate you will know who her parents were and you will be able to find that out.
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once you have looked at her marriage certificcate you will know who her parents were
The only marriage that definitely belongs to the correct Margaret is the 1884 marriage which states her father is John Thom.
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For what it's worth, I think you need to find Margaret with family or elsewhere in 1861 & g/parents & their children in 1851 as Margaret may have been illegitimate, mother died hence thinking her g/father was her father.
The 1851 may give earlier children & a possible mother for Margaret if she was illegitimate but also a look at the marriage of George Thom & wife Mary may help?
Annie
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once you have looked at her marriage certificcate you will know who her parents were
The only marriage that definitely belongs to the correct Margaret is the 1884 marriage which states her father is John Thom.
Well, you saidShe married a Mr Hawkins but was already a widow by 1881.
and Klouman has found for you a marriage of Maggie Thom to Robert Hawkins in Edinburgh in 1875. It exactly fits the facts as you originally told them to us, and it will provide the answer to your original question.
So the 1884 certificate may not (indeed is almost certainly not) the only marriage that belongs to Margaret/Maggie Thom.
If only for the fact that (unlike the English marriage certificate in 1884) the Scottish one will tell you the full name, including the maiden surname, of Maggie/Margaret's mother, you have to look at it. You cannot dismiss it as irrelevant if you have not seen what it says.
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The 1875 marriage.... (Used a spare credit)
Robt Hawkins, age 32, Private 1st Royal Scots, Edinburgh Castle, son of Wm Hawkins Agr Lab & Elizabeth Spear.
Maggie Thom, age 20, Spinster, daughter of John Thom, Joiner journeyman & Helen McRobb
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The 1875 marriage.... (Used a spare credit)
Robt Hawkins, age 32, Private 1st Royal Scots, Edinburgh Castle, son of Wm Hawkins Agr Lab & Elizabeth Spear.
Maggie Thom, age 20, Spinster, daughter of John Thom, Joiner journeyman & Helen McRobb
Very kind of you to use your own credits, Kloumann.
As the certificate says simply 'Helen McRobb' rather than 'Helen Thom MS McRobb' it looks as if Margaret was illegitimate.
There is a birth of Helen Thom McRobb, mother Helen McRobb, no father named, on 23 December 1857 in Grange. (So she lied about her age on her marriage certificate - she was only 18, not 20, when she married.)
The 1871 census found by Milliepede looks right, and it confirms that George Thom was Margaret/Maggie's uncle, and by inference that her father John Thom was the son of John Thom and Margaret Goodbrand.
In 1861 the family were at Brickfield*, district of Seafield
John Thom, 45, manager tile works, born Banff
Margaret, wife, 45, Cullen
Isabella, 22, Cullen
Margaret, 13, Rathven
Alexander, 10, Rathven
George, 7, Rathven
William, 5, Rathven
Margaret, granddaughter, 3, Grange
*This is next door to Lintmill and Tochieneal, south of the town of Cullen. On this map https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.67338&lon=-2.80779&layers=5&b=1 named as Tochieneal Tile Works.
In 1851 they are listed at Lintmill, so in the same place, even though in that year it is listed under Rathven rather than Seafield
John, 33, manager tileworks, born Banff
Margaret, 36, Cullen
Isabella, 12, Cullen
John 10, Cullen
Jane, 7, Cullen
William, 5, Rathven
Margaret, 3, Rathven
Alexander, 2 months, Rathven
There is a family at Sillyearn, Grange in 1861 consisting of
George McRobb, 58, born Glass
Helen McRobb, 59, ?Glenrinnes
Helen McRobb, 21, Keith
William McRobb, 12, Grange
George Connon, grandson, 5
Margaret Stewart, granddaughter, 2
William Proctor, grandson, 8 months
All census information from https://freecen1.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl - you can and should view the originals at Scotland's People.
If I were you I would look at the birth certificate of Margaret Thom McRobb and see exactly where she was born. If it was at Sillyearn, I think that would fully nail her parentage.
There may be other information about the Thom and McRobb families at http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp
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Sorry Forfarian. It was MS McRobb.
The George Thom mentioned in the 1881 census married a Mary Kirk Hodge in 1876, St George, Edinburgh.
Addition... I can confirm that George Thom was the son of John Thom & Margaret Goodbrand.
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Sorry Forfarian. It was MS McRobb.
In which case Maggie must have lied about her parents' marital status as well as about her age. It's quite common to do that to conceal illegitimacy, so I don't think it affects the rest of the facts.
There's a marriage of Helen McRobb to Robert Forbes in Grange in 1877. 1881 Census has Robert Forbes, 56; wife Helen Forbes, 42, born Keith; son Alexander Forbes, 21 and Helen A Forbes, 2, all at 10 Fife Street, Banff. (LDS transcription)
John Thom, 39, house carpenter, born Cullen, is at 165 West North Street, Aberdeen with wife Margaret, 38 and 7 children. (LDS again)
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You may be lucky & find an attachment from the RCE (Register of Corrected Entries) naming the father on the birth Forfarian noted in 1857 for Margaret Thom McRobb?
MCROBB MARGARET THOM 1857 - 156/ 71 Grange (Banff)
If no RCE there's also an entry here which can be ordered for a small fee...
Scroll down to heading 'Find the father'...
https://www.oldscottish.com/grange.html
There are 4 entries with mother as Helen McRobb, could she be the same mother to those other 3?
All born pre 1871 i.e. would be on 1871 census (if not already deceased).
Annie
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John Thom married Margaret Goodbrand in Forgue, 1838. Margaret died Seafield in 1871
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Had a look at Margaret Thom McRobb's birth record on 23rd Dec 1857 in Bracobrae, Grange, Banff. No father listed. She was illegitimate. Mother Helen McRobb, Domestic servant.
On the 1861 census for Grange, she is 21 & living with her mother, also Helen McRobb, age 59. Helen was born in Keith, 1838, daughter of George McRobb & Helen (Davidson)
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No pic but seems likely same place...
https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/sillyearn-croft-bracobrae/grange/keith/ab55-6tp/217825
From VRs...
MACROBB WIDOW Occupier
FEW TENEMENT HOUSE KEITH
1855
VR009100002-
There's also an Alexander MacRobb as an Occupier on same VR 1855
MACROBB GEORGE Tenant Occupier
SILLYEARN ESTATE OF BRACO GRANGE (BANFF)
1865
VR009100018-
Annie
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Just to expand for completeness sake upon John THOM (h/o Margaret GOODBRAND):
John THOM remarried in 1872 to Catherine FORBES who was nearly 30 years younger. He had two further children by her, named Helen and Catherine. They were at Tochnieneal in 1881 and 1891.
Catherine FORBES had had an illeg child William STRACHAN born 30 Apr 1869.
After John THOM's death, Catherine FORBES remarried, to John Innes ALLAN on 13 Oct 1899.
She died 1925; he died 1930.
(William STRACHAN is related to me via his father James STRACHAN who was also illeg, his father being William STRACHAN who ended up as proprietor and farmer of Mill of Balmaud, King Edward.)
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Oh wow! Thank you everyone for taking the time to find out so much information, and special thanks to Kloumann for using your own credits too :)
Your efforts are all really appreciated :)
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There are 4 entries with mother as Helen McRobb, could she be the same mother to those other 3?
All born pre 1871 i.e. would be on 1871 census (if not already deceased).
Very likely, as there are not a lot of Helen McRobbs around at the time.
There are four births of children to Helen McRobb, no father named
Margaret Thom McRobb 23 December 1857
William McRobb 14 August 1860
James McRobb 10 January 1865
George McRobb 24 December 1868
John McRobb 21 April 1873 all in Grange except John who was born in Fordyce.
Bracobrae https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ5052
and https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ5053
Sillyearn https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ5253
Lintmill https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ5165
Tochieneal https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ5265
Towie including Tochieneal tileworks https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ5264