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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: dragonlady403 on Sunday 22 March 20 16:03 GMT (UK)
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Hi, I wonder if someone could figure out the first portion of this pub's name listed with Apollonia Morris on the attached portion of the 1851 census Kirkdale, Liverpool :
??? Arms, 15 Derby Street, Kirkdale, Liverpool
Apollonia Morris Barhouse Keeper.
Also, if anyone could figure out the marital status that would be wonderful!! Her husband seems to have disappeared off all records from abut 1840.
Also, would that still be the street name now?
Thanks for any assistance you can offer. I've checked defunct pubs lists, maps and historical listings with no success:(
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I think the first two letters could be Wa--head Arms.
Have you looked to see if there are any similar letters on the rest of the page?
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Hi Girl Guide - yes, my husband also took a stab at it. He thought the first letter might be a B, but frankly, I think we are just stabbing in the dark:(
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This looks like it could be her death
MORRIS, APOLLOMA 66
GRO Reference: 1863 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 39
This lady obviously suffered from her first name being misheard.
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Could it be the Lathom Arms?
Emeltom
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Lathom Arms was my first thought. NB it's 15 Derby Road, not Street. Derby Road is one of the main roads into Liverpool from the northern suburbs.
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Barhouse Keeper.
Beerhouse keeper
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There is a baptism for Caroline Morris, who is on the 1851 census, on 31 August 1831 at Middlewich, Cheshire.
Parents and Robert and Apolonia Morris
So at least we have her husband's name.
I'll see if the sister was baptised as well.
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Emma is down as Emma Sophia baptised 18 April 1833. Parents Robert and Appollonia Morris. Dad is stated as being a school master.
This is a transcription record, no image available on Find My Past.
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Thanks Girl Guide - I just discovered the 1851 census earlier today. Her husband Robert has disappeared (I think since around 1844 when their last daughter was born). They were married in London, but she is from Shropshire and Robert is from Cheshire.
The point of this exercise is to figure out when Robert actually dropped out of the picture and then why. I was quite thrilled to find the 1851 census (through one of her kids actually) but very frustrated to be unable to read the pub name!
???
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Yes he sometimes shows up as an accountant and I think as a solicitor on one doc I saw...
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This is a total stab but there is a Robert Morris in Liverpool Goal in the 1841 census. No birth place stated, born c1786.
Archive reference HO107
Piece number 557
Book number 19
Folio number 4
Page number 2
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LOl nothing would surprise me about them.
I did wonder if he might've ended up in jail for something like embezzlement. He was born circa 1790 in Halton, Cheshire and their youngest daughter was born in 1740... so it could fit.
I may be able to find something in the local newspapers to support/deny that ....
Thanks Girl Guide:)
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Girl Guide - what do you think the marital status reads for Apollonia on that 1851 census? It doesn't seem to say widowed ...?
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Definitely married. I can clearly see an Ma and a squiggly r. The enumerator may have written it as Mard but the r has kind of disappeared.
Added: You may like to consider following up that death I found in 1863 for Apolloma.
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Hi there, yes I know it's her death because I got the DC last week.
Ok, re the marital status - that jail link seems ever more likely to account for his absence, because on the 1861 census she definitely lists herself as widowed.
So I knew died between 1840 and 1861 - just not sure exactly when yet.
Wow, she must've been one very powerful woman to manage under the conditions she did!!!!
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Okay, so how about this as a possible death for Robert
MORRIS, ROBERT 62
GRO Reference: 1847 J Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 20 Page 1213
Gives a birth year of 1785 which more or less matches the age of the Robert in 1841.
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Although if Appollonia was saying that she is still married in 1851 would mean that death is not correct.
Depends when she found out that she could call herself a widow.
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Yes, I was just writing to say that. Not sure why she'd do that unless there was a financial benefit which is dubious.
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In 1855 his daughter Emma lists her father as school teacher on her marriage cert. Not deceased...
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Found another one that could be more likely after the 1851 census
MORRIS, ROBERT 68
GRO Reference: 1854 M Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 302
Gives a birth year again of 1786
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Depends on whether the vicar asked if he was still alive or just asked for his name.
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Ah yes, good point. Yes, this 2nd one seems more likely because on the next census she lists herself as widow. So a definite possibility. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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BTW I LOVE your profile pic!!!
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Thanks, I was quite pleased at how it turned out. Combined my love of family history with Lego.
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Well done you! I have a couple of grandsons who would be most impressed:)
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OK, I will ferret around in the newspapers to see if there is any info about him being jailed and I have nailed his death down to a about a decade which is also helpful.
Thanks so much for taking the time to assist with this! I had felt like all I was getting was brick walls.
Really appreciate your time and knowledge:)
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LOl nothing would surprise me about them.
I did wonder if he might've ended up in jail for something like embezzlement. He was born circa 1790 in Halton, Cheshire and their youngest daughter was born in 1740... so it could fit.
I may be able to find something in the local newspapers to support/deny that ....
Thanks Girl Guide:)
The London Gazette
http://thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/19995/page/1742
See bottom col 2
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:o :o :o :o :o :o WOW! thanks for that.. I expected to have to trawl through years of articles! That certainly jives with the info Girl Guide has located and it definitely fits with the location and timeline.
Also, Robert was obviously a fairly educated man because he was listed as having a couple of different careers from teacher to solicitor and I am sure I saw accountant on another doc. So the person in this article seems to fall within those parameters.
It'll be interesting to find the court case to discover whether he was a charlatan/embezzler or gullible and got in with the wrong people, or just a poor businessman.
Thanks Hanes Teulu:)
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The London Gazette
http://thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/19991/page/1637
The 1841 Census occupation links neatly to this item - half way down col 2
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That link doesn't work I'm afraid. I took a quick look at the records for Lancaster Castle, at least he wasn't hung!
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Try it again!!
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I got it. Thanks:)
I'm not sure I know what I'm looking at? Do you know what it means "Court of Relief for Insolvent Debtors"? Is it akin to a bankruptcy claim where they are not legally liable for debts?
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Re. the 1854, March Qtr, Death registration
FindMyPast Burial (transcription only)
19 Feb 1854, Robert Morris, age 68, burial place Walton on the Hill, Lancaster, Cemetery St Mary, residence Everton
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I got it. Thanks:)
"Court of Relief for Insolvent Debtors"?
Just google it.
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Did so and found a very good resource ;D
Thanks for the death link. I will get a copy of the DC to see if I can confirm his parentage etc.
FANTASTIC!!!! Thanks everyone - you've been so generous and I am thrilled. :D :D :D :D
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There is a Lathom just north of Liverpool, but I can't read it as Lathom.
Martin
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Thanks for that info - I also struggled with Lathom but I don't know what else it could be.
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I've been ploughing through Gore's Liverpool Directory 1853 - without success.
There's a section that lists all pubs/taverns - but this would not include/cover beerhouses. But I looked for a possible pub/tavern that "fitted" the Census entry - nothing in the frame. Unfortunately, beerhouses they do not qualify for a section of their own. The "beerhouses" I found individually only referred to the licensee, not the name of the establishment. Note - I only checked a random sample!
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Thanks for taking the time to do that!
It seems the "beer houses" were a much more informal and less regulated type of establishment than the usual public houses. I did wonder if she was running a facility from her home which may have been a multi level boarding house type of thing. But I don't know for sure.
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The Beer House Act 1830 allowed a householder, of reputable character, assessed to the poor rate, to retail beer and cider from his own house on payment of an annual fee to the Excise of 2 guineas. This Act opened the floodgates to a spectacular proliferation of decidedly downmarket drinking-dens, most of them in the front rooms of terraced houses. The Act was repealed in 1869. These beer houses are not normally shown on maps.
Stan
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Lots of people pub hunting on Derby Road ;)
See here www.bootlehistory.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21894
In the second of the directories (for 1881 I think) there is a listing showing as:
East Side
15 Derby Road (seems the same number as the 15 Derby Road/ West Side?)
Mrs Mary Jane Cosier, beer retailer
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Monica - that's not 15 Derby Road, it's 15 Cyprus Road
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LOl Stanmapstone: I suspected it was likely something out of the front of the house rather than a properly licensed establishment.
If, as things seem to be pending confirmation, her husband was incarcerated leaving her with several children in a city she didn't grow up in - she probably had minimal options so that type of establishment would likely have been a "lifesaver" for her.
Hi Monical:) Doing our own pub crawl??? ;D ;D ;D Initially, I was looking for an established and listed pub (given the name was ???? Arms). However, based on a great deal of very exciting information previously provided here, I'm now more inclined to think it was just a private "bootlegger" type of residence and therefore, won't be in the more legitimate pub listings~!~
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Girl Guide... you were correct!!!
I spent this afternoon trawling through the BNA for Liverpool for that period and found numerous pieces in the papers over about a 5 year period about Robert Morris and bankruptcies 9and a 1 year sentence he was given0.
However, nothing really helped to confirm his identity - until I read the final one, which mentions he is from Cheshire:)
THANKS FOR YOUR HELP EVERYONE!!! That was a massive breakthrough for me in just 1 day. Couldn't have done it without you all.;D ;D
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Monica - that's not 15 Derby Road, it's 15 Cyprus Road
Thanks, Shaun ;)
That is what self isolation does to you...and I am only on day 5 ::)
Monica