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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Herefordshire => Topic started by: Talacharn on Tuesday 24 March 20 20:20 GMT (UK)
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I have been tracing the lineage of Daniel Evans and came across him with parents in 1891. Now I am trying to find Zibiah, it says born in Hereford. I cannot find a marriage, therefore no accurate birth and no other census record. Any help gratefully received.
1891 Census . Garn Road . Llanfinhangel Aberbythych, Llandilofawr, Carmarthenshire . Town Cathilas
Edwin Evans . 41 . 1850 . Tinplate Worker . Gipsy . Brecon
Zibiah Evans . 40 . 1851 . Basket Maker . Gipsy . Hereford
Daniel Evans . Son . 20 . 1871 . Single . Tinplate Worker . Gipsy . Carmarthenshire
Perrin B Williams . Nephew . 17 . Single . Aberavon, Glamorganshire . Tinplate Worker
RG12 . Piece 4512 . Folio 93 . Page 17
All I have found is: Zibiah Barber . mmn Phillips (Oct-Dec 1852 . Leominster, Herefordshire . Volume: 6a . Page: 461)
She married into a travelling family, though I do not know if her family were travellers. The nephew Perrin Butler Williams, was part of a travelling family that were linked to a Boswell family also travellers.
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1891 Census says that Edwin and his wife Zibiah were both born in England?
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I am aware it says England for both, but Brecon is Wales. I have also seen Carmarthenshire regarded as England, therefore accepted it as an error. Brecon and Hereford would seem accurate. Their son was born in Llanwrda and registered in Llandovery. I now feel it is important for me to buy that birth certificate.
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The GRO has placed a Coronavirus statement: ‘To help ensure that our services are accessible to those that need them most throughout this period, if you are able to do so we would ask that you delay making your order until a later date.’ My need for a certificate can wait.
Considering Daniel is 20, they should be on the 1881 and 1871 census, though that may be solely in Wales. My interest with this post, is her birth, parents and early life.
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Which birth entry do you think is Daniel's?
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Are you sure her name is Zibiah - it could be Libeah?
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Zibiah is a name used at the time and if it had been mis-spelt/heard, why write Zibiah?
There is: Zibiah Barber . mmn Phillips (Oct-Dec 1852 . Leominster, Herefordshire . Volume: 6a . Page: 461), which fits with date and location. Although saying they were married, they may not have actually married.
As for the birth of Daniel Evans, I believe it is one of these:
Jan-Mar 1871 . mmn Williams . Llandovery . Volume 11a . Page 716
Apr-Jun 1871 . mmn Jones . Llandovery . Volume 11a . Page 735
All other census records say he was born in Llanwrda/Llandovery.
There is no mmn Barber for it to be the Zibiah above.
I was aware of another Daniel Evans born at the same time, linked to a farm and remained in the Llandovery area. In buying both, the parents will clarify. Tracing different strands back, they lead to a Williams family in Montgomeryshire, who were travellers. I would not be surprised if this does the same with mmn Williams.
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The person writing names may not have heard correctly, due to local accents/dialect?
Zibiah (also Sibiah) is a Hebrew name from the Old Testament.
Other variations: Tzivyah, Tzivia, Tzivya, Tzvia, Zibia.
Related names: Aram-zobah, Barsabbas, Hamath-zobah, Sabaoth, Tabitha, Zeboiim, Ziba, Zibia, Zobah, Zobebah.
Biblical References: 2 Kings 12:1, 2 Chronicles 24:1
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I have seen some of the variations and they were male, though some will also be female.
One name that could be misheard to make Zibiah is Elizabeth.
As they were travellers, who often had biblical names, a possible leap to Zibiah.
I don't feel we will get any closer until I read the birth certificate.
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Although they may not have married, at some stage she must have died. Have you found a death anywhere for her?
There is also the possibility that Daniel was registered in her maiden name, and took on the Evans surname later.
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There is a Leominster death for a Zobie Barber in 1858. With the similarities in forenames and matching surname, it would probably be worth keeping that death in mind as either a family connection or as a death for Zibiah Barber bn 1852.
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Looking at the original census page her name appears to be either Libiah or Librah. The first letter is identical to the 'L' in a 'Lydia' who's further up on the page.
Annette
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There is a Leominster death for a Zobie Barber in 1858. With the similarities in forenames and matching surname, it would probably be worth keeping that death in mind as either a family connection or as a death for Zibiah Barber bn 1852.
GRO
Death 1858 Leominster Zobie Barber age 5
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Thanks Annettee7 for looking, I only use Family Search and as the library is unavailable I cannot check originals. I tried both names, with Libiah having 3 listed but nothing fits, and nil for Librah.
Chempat and Spidermonkey, Death is the one thing nobody can avoid and I have looked. The Leominster Barber, I could not find anything for, so the death in 1858 explains; I had not looked that close to the birth. My mistake, I should have.
Zibiah, or whatever, might be a second name as many used that rather than their first given name. Then again, it might only be the name she used and was not given, especially if you want to blend in with travelling folks. I am aware through the rest of my research, travellers changed their names to suit the occasion. In moving to Wales, some took on ‘Welsh’ surnames and had different Christian names.
I only have them in 1891, where were they in 1881 and 1901? The 1901 may be an issue, as many travellers on mass, gave vague information, or refused to answer the census questions.
The only way to know is from Daniel’s birth certificate. That assumes I have the right person re: the two given. I am going through other census records, where none of the traveller children births are registered, certainly not with the names given; some later though were baptised.
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Just posting snip from census, including a 'Lydia' at the top and the disputed name at the bottom.
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Thanks, I would never have transcribed that as a Z.
L probably, though could it be s T?
The issue with tracing travelling people, is that you cannot trust anything written. Although on the census, it says wife, they may be living together, but never married. The children were born, probably where it states in the census. If the birth was registered, it may not correspond with the stated birth and baptisms seem to take place where they liked to gather. Of Daniel’s 4 children of the 1890s, none seem to have been registered and I now wonder if Edwin and Daniel were registered.
All I know of Edwin Evans
Daniel’s first marriage in 1899; Father: Edwin Evans . Basket Maker (Master) and his second marriage in 1917; Father: Edward Evans (Deceased) . Basket Maker. There is a difference in name, which is either a typo, or the two names he used, Edwin for business and Edward formal.
Most are Edwin, so that is what I have looked for, maybe I should also look for Edward. He is also Edwin in newspaper articles with the Boswell family, usually in court.
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just throwing this in just in case it helps.
Perrin Brookes Williams was baptised in Aberavon 1 Dec 1872 son of Samuel, basket maker, & Gravelina
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFZB-DKC
He appears to marry in 1899 as Perrin Brooks W Lee
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:269N-JB6
Possible death reg for Gravalina Williams aged 37 sept qtr 1890 Pontypridd. I suspect she would have been a little older than that and could be the Gravalina Lee at Talachddu in 1861
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M76B-R19
There's an older sister, Senbee, who could be the mother of Daniel.
There's also this baptism in Sketty
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFCW-7C5
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Thanks Osprey,
I have the 1861 census of the Lee family and knew there was a link, but not how. Also the baptism of Perrin Brooke Williams with parents. In the 1861 census, there is a son called Perrin. It does not surprise me that he would marry back into the family, as it happens so often within the Williams, Boswell, Lee families, that also extends to Evans. Some Williams were actually Bowell, changing their name when moving to Wales. The Williams family were also travelling showmen based around Machynlleth.
I initially though Perrin was related to Daniel's first wife Catherine Ann Boswell mmn Williams; AND STILL COULD BE!! I did not mention Perrin B Williams as it took the subject away from Hereford. I was wondering how he could be described as nephew before Daniel married. That was my next search.
From what you have provided, I will try to work out relationships. Senbee could be the mother, but this is the family where I could not find a birth registration. And they probably never married; but those are the joys of family research.
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forgot to mention
Gravelina Lee baptised 11 May 1847 at Llyswen, Breconshire daughter of Samson & Elderaiffe (?)
No, I'm not finding civil records for the families. Some baptisms and the odd census. Shandras from the 1861 census seems to have died in 1922 in the Pontypool registration district. He was baptised 29 Oct 1837 in Kidderminster
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NGHK-J7K
Diana aged 2 in 1861 was baptised in Pembrey
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1R2-255
so this may be the same family in 1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5B6-719
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well, there's a birth reg for Elvira Diana Lee march qtr 1858 Neath mmn Buckland.
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Throughout I have had difficulty establishing how it all fits together as I could not find ‘formal’ records, births, marriages and often deaths, so I have relied on baptisms. Only from the offerings here, I am now starting to bring parts of it together.
1881: Census . Gipsy Tent Penyard . Dyffrynclydach, Glamorganshire
Samson Williams . Head . M . 33 . (Estimated): 1848. Cwmavon, Glamorganshire . Basket Maker
Gavelina Williams . Wife . F . 33 . Staffordshire, England
Agnes Williams . Daughter . F . 15 . Caerffili, Glamorganshire
Isabella Williams . Daughter . F . 12 . Haverfordwest, Pembrokeshire
Diliah Williams . Daughter . F . 9 . Swansea, Glamorganshire
Penenboke Williams . Son . M . 8 . Aberavon, Glamorganshire
Henora Williams . Daughter . F . 5 . Llanelly, Carmarthenshire
Elvira Williams . Daughter . F . 2 . Sketty, Glamorganshire
Rebecca Williams . Daughter . F . 0 . Sketty, Glamorganshire
RG11 . Piece/Folio: 5344/108 . Page Number: 32
GS Film: 101775467 . Digital Folder: 101775467 . Image: 00746
Penenboke I believe to be Perrin Butler.
I have found a few Sampson families and they seem to be a different clan.
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birth reg for Isabella Williams dec qtr 1868 Pembroke vol 11a pg 755 mmn Lee. She was baptised 25 Jan 1869 in Trelech ar Bettws daughter of Samson, basket maker, & Gravelinia.
Same church 13 April 1868 Agnes aged 13 months, same parents, abode noted as Trelech, chiefly at Neath. That same day, baptisms for Oliver aged 3 and Thomas, sons of Elijah Williams, travelling basket maker, and Agnes. Abode noted as Trelech but generally at Neath.
birth regs
Agnes march qtr 1867 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 295 mmn Lee
Annora sept qtr 1876 Llanelly vol 11a pg pg 756 mmn Lee
Elvira was baptised 31st Dec 1878 St Paul's Sketty daughter of Sampson, basket maker, & Gravilina abode Mumbles Road Common.
Baptism 27 Dec 1880 at same church for Rebecca daughter of Samson, basket maker, & Gravelina, abode Common Sketty Road
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Thanks, I need to bring all of this together and establish the links.
There are several families at the same time; Williams, Boswell and Lee that gave their children very similar names. Then they married each other. For most, there were not 'official' records.
Some I find in the newspapers. This evening, I seem to have found Louisa Lee being sent to jail for prostitution.
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Here's Samson Williams and Edwin Evans getting into trouble together
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3388925/3388930/92/
A gaol recod suggests Samson b Cwmbuchan (?)
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Thanks, I have that article but no access to gaol records, so good to know Cwmbuchan.
There is another article where Edwin and Samson are fighting with Edwin stripped to the waist. Another article of a court appearance says Samson Williams is actually Samson Boswell. That is why I get confused and double-check everything. Cwmbychan had roller mills for tin, an industry the different families worked in, possibly during the winter when there were no fairs.
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Could someone check the original? I found this record that has similarities and also areas I cannot explain. Is Sarbi Evans the Zibiah Evans in 1891? There is no mention of Daniel who would be 10, but they did interchange vans. Should Caernarvon actually be Carmarthen, Carmarthenshire? It seems strange to give birth to Angelus (1870) and David (1872) in Caernarvon, for Daniel to be born in Llandovery, Carmarthenshire (1871).
1881 Census: Mynydd Gellywastod Common . Clase, Glamorganshire [Swansea]
Edwin Evans . Head . M . 35 (Est 1846) . Radnorshire, Wales . Tinman
Sarbi Evans . Wife . F . 33 . Hereford, Herefordshire, England
Urena Evans . Daughter . F . 14 . Radnorshire, Wales
Delenda Evans . Daughter . F . 7 . Caernarvon, Caernarvonshire
Angelus Evans . Son . M . 11 . Caernarvon, Caernarvonshire
David Evans . Son . M . 12 . Caernarvon, Caernarvonshire
RG11 . Piece/Folio: 5354/95
GS Film: 101775470 . Digital Folder: 101775470 . Image: 00451
I have wondered if Daniel is he only child, or the only one I have found.
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place of birth looks like Carnarvonshire no place name given, just county. Youngest child could be Daniel rather than David. Mother's name could begin with L?
But Carnarvonshire does seem rather out of place for their circuit.
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possible birth reg for Delinda Elizabeth Evans march qtr 1872 Llanelly vol 11a pg 687 mmn Lee
also Daniel Evans dec qtr 1870 Llandovery vol 11a pg 633 mmn Lee
possible marriage for Urenia Evans march qtr 1888 Swansea to John Jones Malyn or David Williams
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she married John Malyn
1891 10 Pottery Street, Swansea RG12/4480 folio 9 pg 18
John J Malyn head 23 labourer (?) in fuel works b. Llanelly
Urainey wife 25? b. Herefordshire
Charles H brother 19 labourer in fuel works b. Llanelly
Edwin F son 2 b. Swansea
Charles H son 8 months b. Swansea
Argainus Evans brother in law 22 labourer in fuel works b. Llandovery
Delinda Evans sister in law 18 servant b. Llanelly
Delinda married Thomas Tracey march qtr 1897
Brother still living with Malyn family in 1901 but now called Morris b. Cilcwm
Urainey Malyn buried 23 May 1936 aged 67 address Prince of Wales Rd Swansea, burial conducted by Salvation Army.
Birth reg Eurenia Evans sept qtr 1866 Presteigne vol 11b pg 162 mmn Lee
Baptism in Merthyr Cynog, Breconshire 13 Sept 1866 daughter of Edward, tinker, & Sybil of Disserth
Baptism in Cilycwm 30 Jan 1869 for Arganus Evans son of Edwin & Subi(?)
Possible death reg Subie Evans 57 june qtr 1902 Bridgend vol 11a pg 457
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Thanks Osprey,
I have a few of those baptisms, but feel I am not using Family Search to its best as I get anything and everything, apart from what I asked for. Or maybe that is the limits of Family Search.
Caernarvonshire does seem a strange detour. The first letter of her name looking like an L, is the same as the image from Zibiah, the Z looked like an L. Both records suggest the right areas, though age is a little off. If Delenda, Angelus and David/Daniel Evans were born in Caernarvonshire, why do other records suggest they were born in South Wales?
As for your comment about Daniel, I accepted he was born in 1871 as most census records suggest that and both marriage certificates. I believe I have him in the 1939 Register and it says 7 Oct 1871. The other information seems right and his wife is also living separately in Carmarthen. Both are fish merchants. Daniel: RG101 / 7212H / 007 / 19 . Letter Code XEAH Martha Jane: RG101 / 7203F / 013 / 9 . Letter Code XDCH
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1901 has Urainey & Delinda living a few doors apart
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Thanks Osprey,
I have a few of those baptisms, but feel I am not using Family Search to its best as I get anything and everything, apart from what I asked for. Or maybe that is the limits of Family Search.
Caernarvonshire does seem a strange detour. The first letter of her name looking like an L, is the same as the image from Zibiah, the Z looked like an L. Both records suggest the right areas, though age is a little off. If Delenda, Angelus and David/Daniel Evans were born in Caernarvonshire, why do other records suggest they were born in South Wales?
As for your comment about Daniel, I accepted he was born in 1871 as most census records suggest that and both marriage certificates. I believe I have him in the 1939 Register and it says 7 Oct 1871. The other information seems right and his wife is also living separately in Carmarthen. Both are fish merchants, Daniel from his caravan. Daniel: RG101 / 7212H / 007 / 19 . Letter Code XEAH Martha Jane: RG101 / 7203F / 013 / 9 . Letter Code XDCH
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I suspect the place of birth on that census entry is meant to be Carmarthenshire not Caernarvonshire. It's certainly that in the 1891 census for Delinda & brother
1901
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSM6-LQC
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSM6-LQ3
1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWXG-6JR
the birth date of Daniel could be 7 Oct 1870 as he was registered in the December quarter. It's not unusual for the date to be correct and the year out on the 1939 register. The name on the 1881 census entry could be Daniel, it's not the clearest.
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1881 snip
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I will take the census as being Carmarthenshire. The image looks more like Daniel than David, I cannot make David from that squiggle. From that census, the ages do not seem to tally with the 1891. At least I know there were brothers and sisters. Those I can now add and follow on census records and eventually the 1939 Register. Over the last few days, I have gained so much information, so thank you all. As the census record is wrong, is there anything to do to change it online?
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The census record isn't "wrong" ;D
It's what the enumerator wrote!
True, his handwriting may be B*** awful, but it's all we have.
Transcriptions contain many mistakes; so always best to look at the original.
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don't know if you have Samson Lee's marriage
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NV4R-F9S
The register is available on FindMyPast, the marriage was by licence and consent was given by Elderifay's father, Edward Bucklin so she was under 21. She was of Berkswell. Elijah Lee was one of the witnesses.
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and the baptism of the daughter who becomes the mother of Daniel?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N1T8-D7V
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A name that started with a Z, which was felt should be an L and is now back with a Z. And Elmley Castle is in Worcestershire, not Herefordshire. If Zubilee Lee is the mother, which it now seems she is, Daniel gave a wrong age, even date of birth all his life, albeit only a year out. That is not surprising. When the virus lock-down is over, I will get his birth certificate. Without the help of Rootschat members I would never have reached this point. Thanks.
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You can get a PDF copy, online, for £7 from the GRO website?
Why wait! ;D
www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
You will need to register, but searches are free.
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I am registered and have bought plenty of certificates, but there is a coronavirus message on the GRO, that unless necessary, to postpone contacting them. I assume they are functioning with fewer staff, and I do not feel my request is important enough, so waiting is fine and I would prefer a paper version, though have a good idea of what it will contain.
Until yesterday, I was only aware of Daniel and his father being Edwin from his first marriage certificate (the second marriage and the first I saw, he was Edward). The census record with Zabiah from Herefordshire I knew was them from Perrin B Williams. That is why I posted my question about Zabiah. The twists and turns have been fascinating and I would never have reached this point without the hard work of Rootschat members. I had a hunch their lineage would find Williams and Boswell, so Lee was a surprise, but understandable.
Now I know Daniel was not an only child, I will look for other birth registrations. Why would he be the only one? Another question, is the link between Edwin and Perrin B Williams, in saying he is the nephew, but they will not be on the Herefordshire board. All of this stemmed from my great-grandmother remarrying Daniel Evans, and his son Aran marrying her daughter, also a Martha-Jane.
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the baptism was in Worcestershire, but she may have been born in Herefordshire.
I've mentioned other birth registrations, mmn Lee
Delinda Elizabeth Evans march qtr 1872 Llanelly vol 11a pg 687
Eurenia Evans sept qtr 1866 Presteigne vol 11b pg 162
I think there is Boswell in their line. Possible marriage for Elderifay's father, Edward Buckland/Bucklin to Lucy Boswell 31 Oct 1815 at Knowle, Warwickshire by licence. Edward is noted as of Charlbury, Oxfordshire. One of the witnesses was Johanna Boswell. His death was registered aged 84 june qtr 1873 at Tewkesbury.
Baptism for Elder Riffee 18 Aug 1816 at Eccles, Lancashire, the record also mentions Stratford upon Avon.( This may be misindexed by FamilySearch as it appears under the batch number for Stratford.)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NLMH-WVT
other children to the couple
Margaret baptised 5 July 1829 at Upton Warren, Worcs
Rosanna bp 10 July 1822, Tredington Warwickshire
Job bp 6 June 1819 at Pinvin, Worcs
Perrin Brooks is the nephew of Edwin's wife as his mother was Gravalina Lee.
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I had thought the connection to Perrin B was through Daniel’s wife as she was Catherine Ann Boswell mmn Williams, but it makes sense that both could be connected and not very distant.
Birth Certificate: Catherine Ann Boswell . 3 Jul 1872 . Pelican Inn, Strand, Swansea . Father: William Boswell . General Labourer . Mother: Ellin Boswell formerly Williams . Registered by Ellin Boswell . Mother . Pelican Inn, Strand, Swansea . 7 Aug 1872
Marriage Certificate: 14 Aug 1899 . Register Office . District of Swansea
Daniel Evans . 28 years . Batchelor . Licensed Hawker . Travelling Van, Dyfatty Street, Swansea . Father: Edwin Evans . Basket Maker (Master) . Catherine Boswell otherwise Catherine Ann Boswell . 26 years . Spinster . Licensed Hawker . Travelling Van, Dyfatty Street, Swansea . Father: William Boswell . Showman . Witnesses: Edwin Evans . Delinda Elizabeth Tracy
As for born in Herefordshire and baptised in Worcestershire, it is something I have mentioned before, in having difficulty tracing them, between birth, registration (if it took place) and baptism, then did not think about it.
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I believe this is Cartherine Ann:
1881 Census: Machynlleth, Montgomeryshire
Richard Williams . Head . M . 59 . Machynlleth, Montgomeryshire
Eliziarbeth Williams . Wife . F . 61 . Talyllyn, Merionethshire
Catherine Ann Boswell . Grand Daughter . F . 8 . Carmarthen . Scholar
RG11 . Piece/Folio: 5477/43
And the same couple tem years earlier:
1871 Census: Machynlleth, Montgomeryshire
Richard Williams . Head . M . 50 .Machynlleth . Stone Cutter
Elizabeth Williams . Wife . F . 53 . Talyllyn, Merionethshire
Richard Boswell . Grandson . M . 9 . Machynlleth
David Boswell . Grandson . M . 7 . Machynlleth
William Boswell . Grandson . M . 5 . Machynlleth
GS Film: 000892467 . Digital Folder: 004412512 . Image: 00103
Affiliate Image Identifier: GBC/1871/5601/0100
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this could be the family in 1901, there's a son matching the 5 year old William from your 1871 entry
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSMS-XNK
birth regs
Edith Boswell dec qtr 1879 Newtown vol 11b pg 174 mmn Williams - marriage reg Neath 1902 to Richard Charles Buss
Caroline Jane march qtr 1883 Newtown vol 11b pg 185 mmn Williams - married Frederick Hill in 1916
There's a school admission 1 Dec 1880 in Merthyr Tydfil for a Cath. Ann Boswell born 2 July 1872 and sister Elizabeth born 14 Jan 1870 daughters of William, collier, of 27 Bethel St. Both born Llanidloes according to admission.
An altercation!
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4239746/4239751/47/
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I have the census record and the Cosis is Coris. In 1911 they are in Lampeter, but the head has changed to Israel and in 10 years he has not aged. That at present I do not understand.
1911 Census: Lampeter Urban . Cardiganshire
Israel Boswell . Head . M . 71 . Trefeglwys, Montgomeryshire . Mill Wright
Eleanor Boswell . Wife . F . 69 . Coris, Merionethshire
Elizabeth Boswell . Granddaughter . F . Single . 23 . Brynaman, Glamorganshire
RG14 . Schedule Type: 282 . Piece/Folio: 565 . GBC/1911/RG14/33381/0565/2
Buss, Bass and Boss are all Boswells. When Daniels first child was born, Matilda, the mmn was BASS.
And the article I have. It is always the same things they are in court for, fighting or pitching their tent in the wrong place for the authorities. The school admission though was a surprise.
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possible marriage reg
Israel Boswell sept qtr 1861 Builth vol 11b pg 133 with Elinor Williams the other name on the page.
1851 census in Machynlleth Richard & Elizabeth have a daughter Ellinor b. 1845 Talyllyn
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGD9-WVJ
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I have seen the 1851 census of Richard and Elizabeth with daughter, but only now is it making sense.
In 1891 William Boswell and 1901 Israel Boswell
I have not found a birth reference for 1830, but:
Death: William I Boswell . 96 (Est 1830)
Jul-Sep 1926 . Aberystwyth, Cardiganshire . Volume: 11b . Page: 57 . Line: 147
The year fits for 1891, he was 12 years older, but he lost 10 years by 1901.
I feel his full name is David Israel Boswell
That would also fit with the marriage of Israel Boswell and Elinor Williams in 1861.
I was thinking, Catherine Ann Boswell would have fitted within the 1901 census, had she not been living with Daniel and had 4 children.
William Boswell . Head . M . 71 . Trefeglwys, Montgomeryshire
Elleanor Boswell . Wife . F . 59 . Cosis, Merionethshire
William Boswell . Son . M .35 . Machynlleth, Monmouthshire
Catherine Ann Boswell . Age 29
Edith Boswell . Daughter . F . 21 . Llamdloes, Montgomeryshire
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it's a pity that earlier census entries aren't showing up so far.
Baptism of Richard, eldest grandson from 1871 census,
12 March 1862 Machynlleth Richard Boswell son of William, bellhanger, and Ellen of Pentrerhedyn.
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1891 Caravan, Bryngwyn, Gorseinon, Llandeilo Talybont RG12/4470 folio 93 pg 39
William Boss head mar 59 showman b. Mont, Trefeglwys
Eleanor wife 48 b. Merionethshire, Corris
Catherine U dau 19 b. Swansea
Eleanor dau 16 b. Mont, Newtown
Edith dau 11 b. Llanidloes
Caroline J dau 8 b. Newtown
Elizabeth dau 2 b. Carms, Brynamman
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:H9WK-FMM
;D
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Thanks, That is them in 1891 and Talybont seems one of the main areas where they wintered before the fairs started again. Driving along the M4, these days you would never know how busy it once was. And William being a bellhanger seems to fit as members of the family were stone masons.
I have been looking for Edwin Evans in 1871 as Daniel and a few others had been born by then and found nothing. It does say 3 areas in Breconshire are not complete from 1871, though more likely, they were tucked away out of sight. The information provided, is being collated to make some sense and I am starting to see the dynamics and how interconnected the different families were.
I also tried to find Edwin’s father/parents without any success, to see if he was from a line of travellers. On Romany Genes there are a few Evans families in Wales at the right time, but at present I cannot link them. Because travelling people changed their names, especially in moving to Wales, I do wonder if at some point it was changed to Evans. Also to Williams.
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They were enumerated between Trinity Street & Mill St.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102182754
I grew up a few miles away!
This doesn't match with what he sometimes claims on the census, but birth reg in Newtown which covered Trefeglwys
Israel Boswell jan qtr 1840 vol 27 pg 119 mmn Gittins
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St Teilo's Church at Tal-y-Bont, was old and beautiful, I can understand why the travellers used it; and now reconstructed at St Fagans Museum. There seem to be gravestones remaining, but no road access. A visit will have to wait.
I am thinking Israel was a middle name, but I will look into the Newtown Israel.
All I have is a death: William I Boswell . 96 (Est 1830), but the date fits.
Jul-Sep 1926 . Aberystwyth, Cardiganshire . Volume: 11b . Page: 57 . Line: 147
But the Newtown one fits with the new date, 10 years younger.
I have two baptisms from Daniel’s children, both from Tal-y-Bont. As for the other two children there is nothing. There were so many tin works in the area, so they would pitch their van/tent nearest to the work, which means a different church, where the records are lost. There is a possible for John in Aberavon, but I need to see the image as John is a common name, though they did gather on mass in Aberavon. The only one I cannot find is Aran, the one that started all of this; and for my lineage the most important.
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I doubt that the recent church records are lost, just not online. Tregeglwys records aren't online after 1837. Some parishes haven't given permission for the records to be online.
Which baptisms are you looking for?
Have you dismissed the one from earlier in the thread? The date is ok for Aran.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFCW-7C5
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The issue is Aran Evans. Both he and his father Daniel married into my family. Most of my family moved in and out of Laugharne, Carmarthenshire. They were chapel-goers and I know those records were lost about 20 years ago.
Apologies. The response I noted, but with Perrin Lee it did not register, all I saw was his name. But the parents and occupation fit, so does the date. There were two traveller couples living in the same places, with the names Daniel and Catherine. I am still looking at it and thinking why? Though Perrin and Lee should only be this family. I found nothing on the GRO for Perrin Lee/Evans. There has been so much offered, of which I am very grateful, as it has opened up whole new areas. but with the different families, I am only now starting to make sense of the dynamics.
I have Aran’s marriage and death certificates and it is spelt that way. I searched on Family Search and the GRO for all with Aaron, Aron and Aran as a first and secondary name. Then I cross-checked them against census records and none fitted. I find it strange, but not surprising, that Matilda has a birth record and baptism, but the mmn is BASS for Boswell. I cannot find a birth registration for Daniel though he was baptised aged 4.
Possible Baptism: John Evans . 13 Apr 1898 . Aberavon, Glamorganshire
(Ref: Digital Folder Number: 004378201) Using Family Search, I cannot see the image for his parents, but Aberavon is a place they regularly gathered; they are there on the 1901 Census.
Birth: Matilda Evans . 1893 . mmn: Bass
(Reference: Oct-Dec 1893 . Swansea . Volume 11a . Page 841)
Baptism: Matilda Evans . 1893 . Lliw Common . Llandilo T’Bont, Glamorgan . Father's Name: Daniel . Tinman . Mother's Name: Catherine
Birth: Daniel Evans . 1897
Baptism: Daniel Evans . 1901 . Age: 4 . Pontarddulais . Llandilo T’Bont, Glamorgan . Father's Name: Daniel . Show Business . Mother's Name: Catherine Ann
I accept in both census records there are only 3 children when the 1911 said they had 4 children and all were still living. The date and location fit for Evan to be Aran. As they used traveller names, or English, Evan seems strange in being Welsh. Looking through the older census records, I can nor see why they used Aran/Aaron.
1901 Census . Favi Field, Aberavon, Glamorgan with Daniel Evans and Catherine Evans. Children; Tilly Evans . 7 . Portydulais; Evan Evans . 5 . Swansea and Dan Evans . 3 . Pontypridd . (Ref: Schedule: 310 . Page Number: 58)
1911 Census . Llanfihangel Abercowin . Milford Arms Yard, Saint Clears, Carmarthenshire with Daniel Evans and Catherine Anne Evans.
Children; Matilda Evans . 16 . Pontadulais; Aaron Evans . 14 . Swansea and John Evans . 13 . Pontyfridd . (Ref: RG14 . Schedule 158 . Piece/Folio 315 . GBC/1911/RG14/33027/0315/4)
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I can see Perrin being written as Evan, but do not understand Lee, as after Matilda they would know what is expected. My studies are organised and I like that, but I should remember, these probably did not conform to the same logic.
Then I found this - Death: Perrin Lee (Ref: Oct-Dec 1900 . Swansea . Volume: 11a . Page: 560 . Line: 253 . There is no age, so is it the same, or another Perrin Lee from earlier records?
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GRO has the age at death as 0 for Perrin Lee - cannot see birth.
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I was about to upload Perrin Lee . 0 in 1900, found on the GRO and could not find a birth.
That leaves the gate open again for Aran.
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the Perrin who died in 1900 was 8 months old, he was buried 27 Dec 1900 at St Peter's Cockett, address given as Gorse Road. Age shows as 0 on FreeBmd, so under 1 year. He could be a son of Perrin Brooks Williams Lee who married Pontypridd june qtr 1899.
The John Evans baptised on that date in Aberavon is the son of Edward William, tin plate worker, and Margaret Ellen. A sibling was baptised the same day, Olive Louise.
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I have now found a birth registration that I think is Aran Evans, which follows on from a previous comment on this thread and Perrin Lee;
Perran Evans . mmn Voss (I believe Voss is Boswell)
(Ref: 1895 Jan-Mar . Swansea . Volume 11a . Page 1043)
Of the baptism offered: Perrin Lee . 1895 . Penllergaer . Sketty St. Paul, Glamorgan
Father's Name: Daniel . Peg Maker . Mother's Name: Catherine
I cannot find a birth registration for Perrin Lee, nor a baptism for Perran Evans, so now I am wandering if they are the same person.
As it is Swansea, I feel the question should now be placed on the Glamorganshire board.
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you could ask a moderator to move the post or start a new post with a link to this one in case people start over on the research.
For what's is worth, I think that birth reg looks a really likely match for the baptism.
:D
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I don't think it needs to go any further, like Glamorganshire. It seems the name baptised was Perrin Lee acknowledging the Lee family, but Lee has been taken as the surname. The issue I had was Peg Maker, as he always described himself as a showman at fairs, though could have turned out a few pegs when there were no fairs. There is sufficient for me to buy the birth certificate, but I will wait until lock-down ends. Thanks for your help.