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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Westy11 on Saturday 28 March 20 05:22 GMT (UK)
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In the 1891 census aged 4 Louie Florence SANDERSON is living with her grandparents John & Eliza P MELLOR and was said to be born at Liverpool, London RG12/3212/89 p39
In the 1901 Census Louie is still living with her grandparents but was said to be born St Johns Wood, London.
Her birth was registered Oct-Dec 1886; Registration district: Pancras; Volume: 1b; Page: 186.
Her mother may or may not have been Ada HOPE.
I realise this scant information is slim pickings but nonetheless I have my fingers crossed that someone with better research skills than I may be able to locate her please.
Westy
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SANDERSON, LOUIE FLORENCE -
GRO Reference: 1886 D Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 185
No MOther’s maiden name , suggests mother’s surname was also SANDERSON
So perhaps, amazingly, the Mellors are her paternal grandparents.
Have you bought the birth cert PDF?
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Why do you think Ada HOPE?
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My cousin who is elderly asked for my assistance and he thinks its Ada HOPE BUT I have not been able to verify that opinion.
I'm just getting over the flu and my thinking is perhaps not as clear as usual hence being uncertain why you suggest her grandparents are her paternal grandparents???
No I haven't purchased the birth certificate as I thought to try Rootschat forum in the first instant as the researchers are often more skilled than I. ::)
Westy
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Grandparents might be paternal grandparents because
No mother’s maiden name on birth registration, suggests Mother was a Sanderson.
If Mellors were maternal grandparents then mother would be a Mellor too.
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You know that makes perfect sense - how embarrassing ::) ::) ::) :-[
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:)
Are you working back or forward?
I don’t see her after that 1901 census.
Do you have her later?
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No I only have her from my cousin and from the two census records and the birth registration.
He has suggested she married first or second wife of Duncan Duthie but I don't know where he obtained that piece of information.
Westy
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I suppose the Mellors might be a second marriage.
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Ah, Eliza Phillis MILLER father William HOPE married
Joseph John (sorry) MELLOR. June 1 1884, Walton on the Hill, Lancashire.
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Is this Eliza Phillis in 1871 with daughter Ada?? Living in St Mary Newington London
Eliza P Miller 26 Married b Coldstream N B
Ada C Miller 6 b Kennington Surrey
Caroline G Miller 5
Henry H Miller 3
Eliza P Miller 1
William Hope 58 Married Boarder b Durham Engineers Millwright
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Oh Mckha489 & Kay99 i do believe you have cracked it. Thank you.
Westy
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But still no clue for SANDERSON
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There are two Ada Caroline MILLERS. The other is daughter of James and Martha.
She is not with Eliza in 1881 in Liverpool (repeating 1871 here as I had it typed ready)
________________________________________________
Eliza Phillis HOPE b abt 1845 Scotland. Father = William HOPE
m Henry Cornish MILLER 1863 London
children
Ada Caroline MILLER b 1864 bapt 14 Aug 1864 Newington Surrey
1871 - Eliza P MILLER Head, Mar, 26, b Coldstream N.B.
Ada C Miller dau 6 Kennington, Surrey
Caroline G Miller dau 5 St Bredes, City
Henry H Miller son 3 Camberwell
William HOPE Boarder, Mar, 58 Engineer’s Millwright b Durham
Caroline Georgina MILLER b 1866 bapt 6 May 1966
1871 as above
1881 31 Lonsdale Street, Liverpool
William CUMMINS Head 52 Baker b Surrey, Lambeth
Eliza CUMMINS wife 36 b Scotland
Caroline MILLER step dau 15 Sewing machinist b Middlesex, London
Eliza MILLER step dau 11 Scholar b Surrey, Newington
William CUMMINS son 7 b Surrey Newington **
Thomas CUMMINS son 4 b Lancashire, Liverpool
** his birth registered as William Minter/Winter MILLER
Can't see a marriage to William CUMMINS. and marriage to John MELLOR she is MILLER a widow, so suspect she never did marry William.
Haven't found a death for Henry Cornish MILLER b 1842
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Caroline Georgina MILLER married Edwin George THORPE Liverpool 1885
5 children 1887 to 1898.
so Louie not hers.
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Mckha489 that's simply fantastic.
Yes I am wondering about the SANDERSON as well. I suppose my cousin had assumed Ada's surname was HOPE but as yet he hasn't replied to my email.
Westy
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Henry Hope MILLER baptised 6 Oct 1867, Camberwell St Giles. on 1871 census.
I cannot find after that
Eliza Phillis MILLER bapt 21 Sep 1873, St John Walworth.
1891 census 4 Alexandra Street, Broughton, Salford
John MELLOR head M 49 Cabinet Maker b Derby
Eliza P wife 46 b Scotland
Eliza P 21, dau, Tailoress b London
William 16, son, Light Porter b London (this is William CUMMINS)
Thomas E 13, son Errand boy b Lancashire, Liverpool (this is Thomas Ernest CUMMINS)
Louie F SANDERSON Grand dau 4 b London
Edward Williams, boarder, single, 22 Salesmen b Denbighshire Ruthen
Eliza Phillis MILLER married Edward WILLIAMS 1891, Salford.
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Eliza Phillis's birth/baptism is on Scotland's People as
Eliza Phyllis HOPE parents William HOPE & Eliza SENIOR 11 Feb 1845. Coldstream
likely death for Eliza P MELLOR age 81 Salford Dec qtr 1826 8d 464
so where are they in 1911?
Found. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW19-7Q4
William Henry MILLER age 11 born Salford Must be Henry Hope's son????
Think he is William Miller/Cummins son. Marriage 1899 to Margaret Roberts, Salford. (I think)
Edward Hope WILLIAMS age 18 ditto. - He is Eliza Phillis Miller/Williams son
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Hello Mckha489,
I am amazed how much you have discovered and thank you so much.
Westy
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Just not what you are looking for!
I was looking around the family hoping Louie would turn up with one of them in 1911, but no. She must have either died or married, but I can’t find.
Similarly Ada. It’s not helping that there are two other Ada Caroline’s born about the same time in London, and one of them has a father Henry!
I think you will have to get the birth cert for Louie. I cannot see any way around it, as no baptism found (by me anyway).
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Hello Mckha489,
I have just received an email from my cousin who tells me he is battling cancer and is in a cancer trial.
I told him briefly about your efforts and asked him if he has purchased the birth certificate.
Fingers crossed that if he is up to it he may respond tonight.
Thanks so much Mckha489 for your help.
Westy
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Hi, again others may be able to help further but there are several immigration records on Anc* for a female named Louie Sanderson of the right age, born c 1887/8, appears to be single.
John
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Hi, again others may be able to help further but there are several immigration records on Anc* for a female named Louie Sanderson of the right age, born c 1887/8, appears to be single.
John
Not sure
A Louie Sanderson comes into Liverpool in Oct 1920 from Durban - ravelling first class. Onwards address 10/16/18 Alexandra Drive, Princess Park Liverpool
A Louie Sanderson then goes back to South Africa on 1921 from Glasgow. She is however listed as Mrs
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Can others please help to dismiss this. A Louie Cummins marries Edward Samuel Stean mq 1907 Southwark 1d 150. Image not available on Ancestry. They appear with 2 children both with mmn Cummins on 1911 census, Louisa 1908, Edward 1910. Louie appears as Louisa aged 25=c1886. Freebmd shows no Louie Cummins born between 1880-1890.
John
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Can others please help to dismiss this. A Louie Cummins marries Edward Samuel Stean mq 1907 Southwark 1d 150. Image not available on Ancestry. They appear with 2 children both with mmn Cummins on 1911 census, Louisa 1908, Edward 1910. Louie appears as Louisa aged 25=c1886. Freebmd shows no Louie Cummins born between 1880-1890.
John
Transcription on FindMyPast says her father was Nelson CUMMINS
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Ok, do you mind me posting these possibles?
John
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Ok, do you mind me posting these possibles?
John
No problem
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He has suggested she married first or second wife of Duncan Duthie but I don't know where he obtained that piece of information.
Who is Duncan Duthie?
Or do you mean Duncan Duthie Mackie? :-\
John Duncan Duthie Mackie of the Royal New Zealand Air Force, died 1943, age 21.
Son of Duncan Duthie Mackie and Louie Mackie, of Wellington, New Zealand.
https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/217527
His mother?
Louie Mackie, died in 1944 in NZ. Age 55
Buried 2/08/1944, Karori Cemetery, Wellington
(ancestry may have something on that with her as Louie Florence??)
Evening Post, 31 July 1944,
Deaths
MACKIE.—On July 30, 1944, at Wellington, Louie, beloved wife of Duncan D. Mackie, 148 Washington Aye., Brooklyn, and loving mother of Annie (Mrs. E. King), Betty, Gordon, Peter, and.the late Flight Sergeant John (R.A.F.)
Scroll down!
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19440731.2.3?
Ditto, funeral announcement
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19440731.2.4?
4 August 1944,Thank you from D. D. Mackie + family
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19440804.2.12?
Death of a Duncan Duthie Mackie in NZ in 1955, age 88. Buried with Louie at Karori? Says Naval Architect.
No idea if this has anything to do with anything!
Marriage of Duncan Duthie Mackie to Louie....any ideas?
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Earliest 1928. But Louie only ever has Louie. No Florence.
I think Gordon is Gordon Ian or Ean. B abt 1925. Not helping.
And Peter is possibly Peter James. I THINK this is a different family
(Modified this post)
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myheritage.com
Don't think I'm a member! This bit is free
https://www.myheritage.com/names/duncan_mackie
Second one down is Duncan Duthie Mackie, 1873 - 1959
It says
Duncan married Louie Florence Mackie (born Sanderson)
Louie was born on February 4 1887, in St.Johns Wood, London
So, yes, this seems to be what's behind the query put by Westy on behalf of her cousin - all the best to him and good luck :)
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It says
Louie was born on February 4 1887, in St.Johns Wood, London
Not if she was registered in Dec qtr 1886.
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Some Random postings... ;D ;D
This Western Australia marriage..
Mackie Duncan Duthie Male Dunn Agnes Female Perth 1252 1902
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This arrival
Mr D D Mackie
Estimated birth year: abt 1873
Age: 43
Arrival Date: 29 May 1916
Arrival Port: Sydney, Australia
Departure Port: Colombo
Ship: Khyber
Nationality: Scottish
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Hello all,
Many thanks for your ongoing support. When I have time I will look through all your finds and respond. I do think you are onto the right person as my cousin did mention a marriage to Mackie Duncan Duthie.
I am so thankful people have been able to assist with this post - it may give my cousin some satisfaction especially in his time of need.
Westy
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Jon where did you locate the birth date for Louie please??
Westy
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From Trove, fits with NZ occupations (sort of)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/234324193?q=Duncan+duthie+mackie&c=article&versionId=259222747
MACKIE & ALLISON (Duncan Duthie Mackie and Stanley Alford Allison), 1 Bond-st., Sydney, marine surveyors, consulting engineers neers and ship brokers —Reported partnership dissolved as from September 30, 1919. Business will be continued by Duncan Duthie MB,ckiG *
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/235078958?q=Duncan+duthie+mackie&c=article&versionId=260591845
SHIP & MACHINERY BUREAU, 64 Pitt-st.—Com. 15.6.18. Proptrs.: Duncan Duthie Mackie and Stanley Alford Allison. Regd. 18.6.18. No. 36237.
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Jon where did you locate the birth date for Louie please??
Westy
From that link to myheritage on reply #29. It can’t be correct.
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More from Trove - a recommendation and a bit of history.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/159319401?searchTerm=Duthie%20Mackie&searchLimits=
But now am puzzled because the Duncan Duthie Mackie who was in Singapore died in Aberdeen in 1927! Could be the father. ...were they both marine engineers etc etc.?
MACKIE
DUNCAN DUTHIE
77
1927
168/3 150
Rubislaw
15 March 1927 - Aberdeen Press and Journal
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Coming back to Ada, possibly her in 1881 as a visitor in Manchester ref: rg11 4006 106 41. Age 17 born London.
John
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Thank you John. Who is she visiting please?
Westy
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She's visiting an Amelia Williams 24 born Pembroke & her daughter Rose Ann 4 born Salford. Cannot find as yet a link to them!
John
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There is a record on FindMyPast of a Henry Hope ******* born 1867 recorded in the London Bethlem Hosp Patient Admission Register & Casebooks 1683-1932. Not having a subscription to this site it may offer some further info?
John
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Hello John,
I have located 4 children to Henry Cornish MILLER & Eliza Phyllis HOPE:
Ada Caroline b 1 Jun 1864
Caroline Georgina b 7 Feb 1866
Henry Hope bap 6 Oct 1867 and then abt 6 years later
Eliza Phillip bap 21 Sep 1873
As yet I haven't located Henry & Eliza's marriage and am slowly making my way through the posts.
As yet I cannot locate the record you identified in FindMyPast [I do have a subscription]. What was the surname for Henry Hope please???
Westy
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If you type in under first names only HENRY HOPE, no surname dob 1867 there are hundreds of hits but the first one to come up should be the one I found.
John
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Thanks John. :)
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The marriage of Henry Cornish Miller to Eliza Phyllis Hope, M Q 1863 STRAND 1B 560
John
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Thank you. ;D
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The marriage of Henry Cornish Miller to Eliza Phyllis Hope, M Q 1863 STRAND 1B 560
21st March 1863 St Paul, Covent Garden
Henry Cornish Miller age 21 gas inspector, Tavistock St., father Henry, Clerk
Spouse Eliza Philis Hope age 21 father William, Engineer
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Located the record to which you referred. The surname is difficult to decipher but the year of birth is correct. Henry, a designer aged 43 is a patient with suspected influenza admitted in 1910 at the Bethlem Hospital.
He is a poorly nourished suicidal married man with two children one of whom died and the surviving child is aged 12. His wife's name is Gertrude May HOBSON [this is his surname I suspect]. Henry's father is deceased.
I don't know if he 'fits' and shall retain the record on the off chance. ???
Westy
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Thank you ladyhawk!.
Westy
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He is Henry Hope Hobson. Married Gertrude Mary Scott 1893 and appears on 1901 census--so not your man sadly.
John
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1871c Piece: 623 Folio: 112 Page 11
35 York St.
Eliza P MILLER Mar. 26 Coldstream
Ada C 6
Caroline G 5
Henry H 3 Camberwell
Eliza P 1
William HOPE 58
Is this Eliza Phillis MILLER on 1881 census?
1881c Piece: 3625 Folio: 87 Page 36
31 Londsdale St., Liverpool
William CUMMINS 52 Baker
Eliza ditto 36 Scotland
Caroline MILLER step dau 15
Eliza ditto ditto. 11
William Cummins son 7
Thomas ditto son 4
Henry Kitching 57
Thomas Ernest CUMMINS mmn HOPE
1877 S Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 174
1911c Thomas Ernest surname is MELLOR with mother Eliza and stepfather John
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW19-7Q3
Can’t see a marriage for Eliza Phillis to William CUMMINS
William CUMMINS 43 Lambeth Surrey occ Master Baker is on the
1871 c Piece: 622 Folio: 15 Page 32 wife Hannah 40, children
Kate 20, Mary J 11, William C 10, Charles H 7 & Frederick A 5
Not sure if you have this remarriage Eliza
1 Jun 1884 St Clement, Toxteth Lancashire
Eliza Phillis MILLER widow age 39 Father William HOPE, Engineer
Spouse: John MELLOR widower age 42, cabinet maker father John, White Smith
one witness Caroline MILLER
7 Dec 1885 St Clement, Toxteth Lancashire
Caroline Georgina MILLER 21 Father Henry Miller, Engineeer
Spouse: Edwin George THORPE widower 26, Traveller
one witness Eliza Phillis MILLER
1891c Piece: 3212 Folio: 89 page 39
4 Alexander St
John MELLOR 49 Cabinet maker
Eliza P 46 Scotland
Eliza P 21 London
William 16
Thomas E 13
Louie F Sanderson 4 granddaughter
Edward Williams 22
EDITED to add my apologies as I had not read through the whole of your post and it looks as if I've duplicated the information already given ::)
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Not that it is important but William Cummins had certainly got around prior to living with Eliza Phillis. He appears on 1851/61/71 census with Hannah "his wife". They have at least 6 children some born with surname Freeman others Cummins with mmn Freeman. In 1881 he is with Eliza and by 1891 living with Harriet. Reminds me of one of my ancestors, 15 children with 3 ladies, only ever married one.
John
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Hello John,
I had a bit of a chuckle with your last post especially in relation to William CUMMINS. I am glad we cannot be held to account for the behavior of our ancestors especially those who behaved badly although we do continue to pay the price for their behaviour.
One of my great grandfather's seems to have very little to commend his good character. To my current knowledge he was responsible for 5 children outside of his marriage three of whom were to sister's of his wife. I think there are more.
That was the least of his behaviour. Anyway its all history now and one can only learn from his behaviour and be better. Gosh that reminds me of Melania TRUMP's Be Best 'initiative' although it doesn't seem to be having any impact on her husband ;D
One of the benefits of genealogy.
Many thanks for your continued support.
Westy
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Thank you ladyhawk!.
Westy
Hello again LadyHawk,
Where did you locate the marriage please?
Westy
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Its all a bit confusing especially as some of the children's surnames seem to change.
Im currently trying to work out the registered names for Eliza'S children William and Thomas Ernest although I think Thomas Ernest was registered as CUMMINS as identified by LadyHawk. ;D
Still Louie remains a mystery although I feel she is tantalizingly close.
I have not heard from my cousin in a few days to keep him in the loop. :'(
Westy
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Its all a bit confusing especially as some of the children's surnames seem to change.
Im currently trying to work out the registered names for Eliza'S children William and Thomas Ernest although I think Thomas Ernest was registered as CUMMINS as identified by LadyHawk. ;D
Still Louie remains a mystery although I feel she is tantalizingly close.
I have not heard from my cousin in a few days to keep him in the loop. :'(
Westy
William - Reply #13
William Minter/Winter MILLER J Qtr 1874 Saint Saviour Surrey. Vol 01D page 187. MMN HOPE
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Apologies Mckha489 :-[ ;D
It seems there were two Williams registered with mmn HOPE.
William registered at Wigton birth registered 1876 and William Minter MILLER registered 1874 at SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY. ???
Westy
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one would hope if she was the Louie Mackie who died in NZ that the death certificate would be informative.
So long as someone knew the details!
After 1875 - Registration of Births and Deaths Act 1875 (dated 12 October 1875)
Local number
Deceased
When and where died
Name and surname
Rank or profession or occupation
Sex and Age
Detail of Death
Cause of death
Duration of last illness
Medical attendant who certified the cause of death and when they last saw the deceased
Parents
Name and Surname of father
Name and if known maiden surname of mother
Rank or profession or occupation of father
Burial Details
When and where buried
Name and Religion of Minister or name of witness of burial
Birth Details
Where born
How long in New Zealand
Marriage Details
Where married
At what age married
Children
If living issue, the number, age and sex
To whom married
Informant
Signature, description and residence of informant
If the entry is a correction of a former entry signature of witnesses
Who witnessed the correction.
Registrar
Signature of registrar
Date of registration
The PDF gets emailed, but of course not at the moment!
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Apologies Mckha489 :-[ ;D
Westy
No problem. There is a lot of information in the thread!
Ladyhawk did a nice job putting it in a neat format. :)
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Hello again LadyHawk,
Where did you locate the marriage please?
Sorry I didn't post the source I found the marriage details on Anc*y
Liverpool, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1932
You can find both marriage transcripts on Lancashire OPC also
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
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Thank you very much LadyHawk.
Westy
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Me again, Further help in looking for Louie required in 1911 census. Have found a Louie Milbrose aged 25, a visitor in the Davey household in st pancras. Her pob recorded as Pancras. In searching Freebmd from 1837-1983 for all Milbrose brings up just one entry, a birth in 1865. Views and comments.
John
Edit: that entry should be Milrose in 1865, but still no Louie Milrose?
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Me again, Further help in looking for Louie required in 1911 census. Have found a Louie Milbrose aged 25, a visitor in the Davey household in st pancras. Her pob recorded as Pancras. In searching Freebmd from 1837-1983 for all Milbrose brings up just one entry, a birth in 1865. Views and comments.
John
Edit: that entry should be Milrose in 1865, but still no Louie Milrose?
Was about to ask if surname was MILLROSE
edit wasn't Louie born c1886 - I can't see one for c1886
For others looking have added the 1891 census & 1901 census for Louie F SANDERSON with the MELLOR’s
her occ 1901 Finisher in Rubber Works
1891 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:78SJ-2N2
1901 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9GJ-M7N
And Louie MILLROSE , bottle washer (beer factory)
1911 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW2G-FW8
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There is this 1901 census entry
19, Ossulston Street, St Pancras, London & Middlesex
William Milrose Head1860 French Polisher St Pancras, Middlesex
William Milrose Son 1882 General Labourer St Pancras, Middlesex
George Milrose Son 1884 Coal Carrier St Pancras, Middlesex,
Louisa Milrose Daughter 1886 - St Pancras, Middlesex
RG13 Piece 145 Folio 32 Page 55
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I'm not trying hard enough. Thanks
John
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I am currently tracking William HOPE who married Eliza Philllis SENIOR. As identified by Ladyhawk, William married three times.
His son William Senior HOPE married Maria HORRELL in 1860 in Lambeth. Based on the 1911 Census written entry that was later scored through William's marriage produced 9 children of whom one died before 1911. Based on the hand written note it seems Maria left William sometime after all the children's births taking the 8 surviving children with her? Source Citation: Class: RG14; Piece: 2697
One of William Senior HOPE's children was Ada Caroline HOPE whose birth was registered at Saint Saviour, Surrey in 1873 [GRO Reference: 1873 D Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 67].
As yet I haven't followed Ada but on seeing her first name I am wondering if she was Louie Florence's mother even though she would only have been 13 at her birth?? Or is this simply coincidence?
Back to the drawing board.... ;D
Westy
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I am currently tracking William HOPE who married Eliza Philllis SENIOR. As identified by Ladyhawk, William married three times.
His son William Senior HOPE married Maria HORRELL in 1860 in Lambeth. Based on the 1911 Census written entry that was later scored through William's marriage produced 9 children of whom one died before 1911. Based on the hand written note it seems Maria left William sometime after all the children's births taking the 8 surviving children with her? Source Citation: Class: RG14; Piece: 2697
One of William Senior HOPE's children was Ada Caroline HOPE whose birth was registered at Saint Saviour, Surrey in 1873 [GRO Reference: 1873 D Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 67].
As yet I haven't followed Ada but on seeing her first name I am wondering if she was Louie Florence's mother even though she would only have been 13 at her birth?? Or is this simply coincidence?
Back to the drawing board.... ;D
Westy
To help others looking this is some of the info. I sent to Westy11 via PM to take a look at......
16th June 1841 at St Peter’s Square Presbyterian (Scotch Church)
William HOPE f/a, millwright 5 Cambridge St
father Samuel , millwright
Eliza SENIOR f/a father Thomas, farmer
witnesses James Cleland & Martha Cooper
Eliza made her mark (x)
1841 census was taken on the night of 6 June 1841
1841 census Chorlton upon Medlock
William HOPE 28 Millwright
Eliza SENIOR 34
Martha “ 13
William HOPE 1
William Senior HOPE, mmn SENIOR
1839 S Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 20 Page 231
William HOPE /fa Widow, Millwright & Engineer
father Samuel same occupation
married 11 Nov 1848 St Bride Fleet Street City of London
Sarah INNES f/a father George INNES, Smith & Engineer
1851 Piece: 1523 Folio: 400 Page Number: 15
William HOPE 37 Millwright
Sarah 35 Newcastle on Tyne
William S 11 Cheshire
Eliza P 6 Berwickshire Scotland
Thomas A 4 Lambeth
A? Hope visitor 35
Thomas Andrew HOPE mmn SENIOR
1846 S Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 04 Page 329
1861 Piece: 312 Folio: 82 Page Number: 25
William HOPE Widr. 45 Durham Millwright Master
Eliza Hope dau 15 Coldstream
Thomas Hope son 14 Southwark
Plus 3 lodgers
William HOPE widow Engineer
father Samuel, Engineer
married 21 Feb 1864 St Mary’s Church Lambeth
Margaret Helen YOUNG widower father David HEATON (dec), Tailor
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Thank you Ladyhawk.
Westy
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Hi westy, without spoiling your research (but a lot of us do have some time on our hands) Ada caroline Hope married Henry George Downes on the 30th July 1893 at Christ church, Southwark. Her father recorded as William Hope occ engineer, deceased. Her address 9 Hatfield Place.
John
Edit: sadly Ada died within weeks of marriage aged 19 Sept q 1893
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Hello john,
Its OK and thanks for taking the research to its logical conclusion. I hadnt had the opportunity to look further into it as I was busily entering children and then I had to go to bed as it was gone 1am. ;D
We will find her and in all ways I was glad it wasn't a 13 year old child who had given birth. The find has shown me that the forename 'Ada' seems to be a favoured name as its not the first Ada we have come across.
Westy
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Hi Westy, I think the big piece of this jigsaw lies in the information recorded on the birth certificate of Louie Florence. My experience in the past whilst doing my own research and helping others tends to end up with ordering the document that breaks the bottleneck. Should you ever order it please let us all know the outcome.
John
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Hello John,
I have ordered it and its set for download 6 April. Will report back to the group.
My hope is that it all just 'drops' into place for my cousin.
Thanks so much for your support.
Westy
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Is anyone able to give marriage details of John Mellor marriage to Ann Eliza Cook mq 1865 Stockport.
Thanks john
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Is anyone able to give marriage details of John Mellor marriage to Ann Eliza Cook mq 1865 Stockport.
I don’t think it’s online checked Anc*y, F M P, FreeREG and Cheshire OPC
from Cheshire BMD
1865
Church / Register Office
Stockport Civil Marriage or Registrar Attended
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Thanks Ladyhawk, you checked exactly where I checked. So wanted to find the grooms father.
John
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In the grand scheme of things re this post it probably is not important but if others do have time to look can they try and find John Mellor the grandfather in 1871.
1901 RG13 3723 130 14-aged 59 occ Cabinet Maker Born Derby with Eliza Phillis
1891 RG12 3212 89 39 -aged 49 occ Cabinet Maker Born Derby with Eliza Phillis
1884 marriage to Eliza Phillis Miller. He is a widower-so probably has previously married and had children.
1881-believe him at ref RG11 3936 102 56 aged 39 occ Cabinet Maker born Derby with an Elizabeth.
1871 found one but not convinced
1861 RG9 2827 77 17 with father John & mother Agnes. & siblings
John jnr aged 19 occ Cabinet Maker
1851 HO 107 2210 621 31 aged 9 with father, mother & siblings.
Would like to indentify who his first wife was and any possible children.
Thanks
John
John was born 5.3.1842 in Derby,baptised in Wigan with sister Susannah.
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This is my suggestion for 1871 - 13 Smith St, Ardwick. No children, sorry
John Meller 29 - cabinet maker b Derby
Elizabeth Meller 28 - wife b Bolton
RG10; 3976; 42; 17
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Elizabeth Mellor death?
Q2 1882 Chorlton Vol 8c, p549
Age at Death: 39
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Well done Mabel Bagshawe, both census and death look exactly right. This then rules out any possible children being the parent of Louie Florence. Must say I spent some time looking for him in 1871 with searches of various names but in the end just could not find him. Well done, thanks.
John
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John & Mabel,
I thank you so much. Have been involved in housework :'(
Westy
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Has a possible Murdoch connection been mentioned?
But it might be a mixed up load of nothing :(
A poss marriage, Dec 1892 Pancras 1b 304
Miller, Ada Caroline
Murdoch, George
plus 2 others, Hans Meyer and Emma Poetzsch. Do they pair off?
And is George confirmed as being on page 304 (some say page 301, or is that Thomas Ebbs?)
In 1891, before(!) that possible marriage, living in Islington
Ada C Murdoch, 26, with son George Murdoch, 1
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:3RZ1-4N2
Piece 168 folio 95 page 15
Findmypast/familysearch have her as Murdoch, born London Kensington
Ancestry have her as Ada C Mardock, born London Kennington
Birth of a George...any alternatives?
MURDOCH, GEORGE
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1889 D Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 119
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Hello jon,
Many thanks for progressing Ada's line.
No MURDOCH connections to date other than Ada Caroline MILLER's marriage with George MURDOCH. Doesn't mean there aren't any just that as yet I haven't located any.
Tonight I have been working toward entering the information forum members have located to date and looking for Scottish connections but no MURDOCH. Have MACKIE, McLENNAN and McDONALD.
Westy
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Today Louie Florence SANDERSON's birth certificate arrived. :) :) :) The following is recorded.
Registration District: Kentish Town; County: Middlesex
When and where born: 12 Nov 1886 @ 115 Queens Crescent, Pancras
Name & Maiden Name of Mother: Ada Caroline SANDERSON - Gentle woman
Rank or Profession of Father: blank
Signature, Description, and Residence of Informant: A. C. SANDERSON, 115 Queens Crescent, Pancras
When Registered: 22 Dec 1886
To date the only possible person who may be Ada Caroline SANDERSON is Ada Caroline MILLER b 01 Jun 1864 at St Mary Newington, Southwark, Surrey daughter of Henry Cornish MILLER & Eliza Phyllis HOPE.
In 1871 Eliza Phyllis HOPE is living with her children Ada, Caroline, Henry & Eliza at York Street, Newington, St Saviour Southwark, London & Surrey. Eliza's husband Henry Cornish MILLER was buried 28 Dec 1877 at Marloes Road, Kensington, Middlesex.
In the 1881 census Eliza and her children Caroline and Eliza and William and John MELLOR [who is stated as her husband] at 31 Lonsdale St, Liverpool, Lancashire. Eliza & John married 01 Jun 1884 at Toxteth, Lancashire.
Ada Caroline is not shown in the 1881 Census with her mother and as yet I haven't located her in the census.
Louie Florence SANDERSON is living with her grandmother Eliza Phyllis nee HOPE in the 1891 census.
Thoughts??
Westy
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Today Louie Florence SANDERSON's birth certificate arrived. :) :) :)
The following is recorded.
Registration District: Kentish Town; County: Middlesex
When and where born: 12 Nov 1886 @ 115 Queens Crescent, Pancras
Name & Maiden Name of Mother:
Ada Caroline SANDERSON - Gentle woman
Rank or Profession of Father:
blank
Signature, Description, and Residence of Informant:
A. C. SANDERSON, 115 Queens Crescent, Pancras
When Registered: 22 Dec 1886
To date the only possible person who may be
Ada Caroline SANDERSON is Ada Caroline MILLER b 01 Jun 1864 at St Mary Newington, Southwark, Surrey daughter of Henry Cornish MILLER & Eliza Phyllis HOPE.
In 1871 Eliza Phyllis HOPE is living with her children Ada, Caroline, Henry & Eliza at York Street, Newington, St Saviour Southwark, London & Surrey.
Eliza's husband Henry Cornish MILLER was buried 28 Dec 1877 at Marloes Road, Kensington, Middlesex.
In the 1881 census Eliza and her children Caroline and Eliza and William and John MELLOR [who is stated as her husband] at 31 Lonsdale St, Liverpool, Lancashire. Eliza & John married 01 Jun 1884 at Toxteth, Lancashire.
Ada Caroline is not shown in the 1881 Census with her mother and
as yet I haven't located her in the census.
Louie Florence SANDERSON is living with her grandmother Eliza Phyllis nee HOPE in the 1891 census.
Thoughts??
Great news thank you for sharing the details :)
As Louis Florence SANDERSON was living with her grandmother Eliza Phyllis nee HOPE
it certainly points to Louis being the daughter Ada Caroline MILLER......... the question is why would Ada register and sign Louis' birth with surname SANDERSON ???
Might that have been the surname of the father :-\
Perhaps checking to see who was living at 115 Queens Crescent, Pancras around 1886
I have located 4 children to
Henry Cornish MILLER & Eliza Phyllis HOPE:
Ada Caroline b 1 Jun 1864
Caroline Georgina b 7 Feb 1866
Henry Hope bap 6 Oct 1867
and then abt 6 years later
Eliza Phillip bap 21 Sep 1873
Will take a look to see if I can locate Ada on 1881 census
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Living 115, Queens Crescent, St Pancras, London & Middlesex in 1881
Andrew GRAHAM Head Married 1851 R. C. H. Clerk Burnside, Westmorland
RG11 Piece 214 Folio 102 Page 10
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Coming back to Ada, possibly her in 1881 as a visitor in Manchester ref: rg11 4006 106 41. Age 17 born London.
John
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Has a possible Murdoch connection been mentioned?
But it might be a mixed up load of nothing :(
A poss marriage, Dec 1892 Pancras 1b 304
Miller, Ada Caroline
Murdoch, George
plus 2 others, Hans Meyer and Emma Poetzsch. Do they pair off?
And is George confirmed as being on page 304 (some say page 301, or is that Thomas Ebbs?)
Does this posr require some more investigation.
John
In 1891, before(!) that possible marriage, living in Islington
Ada C Murdoch, 26, with son George Murdoch, 1
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:3RZ1-4N2
Piece 168 folio 95 page 15
Findmypast/familysearch have her as Murdoch, born London Kensington
Ancestry have her as Ada C Mardock, born London Kennington
Birth of a George...any alternatives?
MURDOCH, GEORGE
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1889 D Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 119
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For some reason and for the first time ever I receive notification of your posts [many thanks] so decided to check before I go to bed. :o
Thank you and I will revisit in the morning as it has been a frantic day here today. :(
Westy
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There are actually 2 households at 115 Queens Crescent in 1881
Albert G. Pritchard 23 - professional musician
Elizabeth Pritchard 23
William D. Pritchard 1
Jane S. Lint 23 [actual surname unclear - she's indexed by Ancestry as mother of head of household. She's unmarried, and occupation mother's help]
James F. Cunningham 23 - boarder, artist
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Electoral registers don't have anyone listed at 115 in 1886 or 87
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PO London Directory
1886, 1887
Queen's cres.
North Side
115 Gardaner Miss
1887 Electoral Register
Pancras North
Lodger Voters
115 Queen's Crescent
Walter James Hallett, three rooms, first floor, unfurnished
landlord/rent paid to Mary Gardiner, same address
1891 census
piece 134 folio 82 page 10
Catherine and Emily Gardiner at number 115
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:35Y2-CZM
also William and Eleanor Chapman (his age may be mistranscribed)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:35Y2-6T2
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Finally a quiet household. Many thanks Mabel, John, Jon & Ladyhawk.
Shall add details and see where that takes the search.
Westy
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Has a possible Murdoch connection been mentioned?
But it might be a mixed up load of nothing :(
A poss marriage,
Dec 1892 Pancras 1b 304
Miller, Ada Caroline
Murdoch, George
plus 2 others, Hans Meyer and Emma Poetzsch. Do they pair off?
And is George confirmed as being on page 304 (some say page 301, or is that Thomas Ebbs?)
Have added the marriage entries from FreeBMD to look at the page numbers
Hans & Emma pair off
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In 1891, before(!) that possible marriage, living in Islington
Ada C Murdoch, 26, with son George Murdoch, 1
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:3RZ1-4N2
Piece 168 folio 95 page 15
Findmypast/familysearch have her as Murdoch, born London Kensington
Ancestry have her as Ada C Mardock, born London Kennington
Birth of a George...any alternatives?
MURDOCH, GEORGE Mother's Maiden Surname: —
1889 D Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 119
Have Ada & her son George Murdoch been located on 1901 census?
There is a possibility for George MurdocK 21 bn St Pancras on 1911 census as a boarder
No middle name - could this be Ada's death entry?
Ada MURDOCH died age 86 (1864)
Jun 1950 Marylebone Volume 5D Page 280
If it's the correct marriage for Ada Caroline Miller is this the same person
Ada Caroline MURDOCH
year 1932
address: 52 Etta Street
Ward or Division/Constituency: Deptford
Borough: Lewisham
Other persons with surnames Blackwood & Finch at same address
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Hello Ladyhawn,
Thanks so much. As yet I haven't progressed the MURDOCH references and I think a few more certificates will be need to resolve the questions. John recommended me to follow that line a little while ago however at the moment my time is not my own so am behind the eight ball so to speak. Have a few hours up my sleeve tonight so beavering away at it.
From memory UK death certificates don't record the person's living children or do they??
Many many thanks
Westy
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From memory UK death certificates don't record the person's living children or do they??
No - the Informants name - This will usually be a family member, friend or medical/nursing professional
Guide to DC
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/778111/Death_certificates_leaflet_Web.pdf
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As yet I haven't progressed the MURDOCH references and I think a few more certificates will be need to resolve the questions.
It's a shame that the 1892 marriage is not available to view on Anc*y London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1932
Have had a look at to see if I could find a baptism London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917 - I could only find this one and his parents are named
George Murdoch 25 Aug 1887 Battersea St Stephen Wandsworth William, Elizabeth
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Thanks Ladyhawk,
In Australia the living children and their approx ages are listed and only the no of males and females who have passed before their parent. However the accuracy is dependent on the informant's knowledge.
Also the date of marriage, age at marriage and location of marriage is included so all very useful information. ;D
Westy
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London England Workhouse Admissions & Discharge records 1764-1930
George Murdock - 1889 - 9, Oakford Road- admitted 12.1.1903 discharge 1.2.1903- to father.
Not at this address in 1901 census, abode inhabited by the Pickwick family.
John
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Very strong contender for Ada in Lewisham in War register. Slightly different birthdate as shown on baptism record though.
John
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Hello all,
Many thanks for your ongoing support. When I have time I will look through all your finds and respond. I do think you are onto the right person as my cousin did mention a marriage to Mackie Duncan Duthie.
I am so thankful people have been able to assist with this post - it may give my cousin some satisfaction especially in his time of need.
Westy
Hi Westy, I'm Louise Mackie and just signed up with ancestry.com for dna test.My Grandfather is Duncan duthie mackie. could you contact me, thank you