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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: MJBatten on Saturday 28 March 20 20:24 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
I found a photo on google and the dates and the ship correlate with my gg grandfather being on board as a PO 2c. I know it's not a clear or great image, but can anybody help me identify any Petty Officer 2nd class uniforms out of the crew, as I'd love to find a photo of him.
Many thanks,
MJ
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This appears to be a photo of the ships' commissioned officers. As a PO he would be dressed in square rig (jumper and bell bottoms).
MaxD
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Hi,
There are five Petty Officers sitting along with one cadet, one Sub Lieutenant and two Lieutenants. Must say today all officers would be comfortably seated but looks like too, that the ones remaining seated do so, so the photo may be square for the old camera....The one with the ships telescope would have been the Navigation Officer or the Duty Officer.
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Hi Stob Ban,
Which ones out of the seated ones are Petty Officers. I am trying to see if I can do a facial recognition or resemblance match with his son's photo that I have.
Thank you,
MJ
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p.s there isn't any petty officers standing at the back are there?
MJ
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I forgot to add; there must have been a fair number of young boys on board the ship as this is evident on having a 'Schoolie' on the ship; School Teacher to land lubbers. He would have disciplined the thicko's with a good whacking with a four foot cane while the young lad was held over and wearing, tight leather breaches which was part of the punishment. I'm sure some would have enjoyed it, but on the older side. I'm sure. Yep! the good old days.
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Hi MJ,
From left all sitting......The first is an officer, the rest up till two on right sitting are officers. There are five Petty Officers. They have plain rings on the sleeves. Hope that seems clear.........Ron..
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Sorry, just managed to stretch the photo longs ways and on the ''very'' end are two Petty Officers too...
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They seem to all be officers at back and one, probably a midshipman, mistaken for a P.O. It was not usual for Officers to mingle with Lower Deckers, even in those days..................
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Thank you. The guy I was interested in also was back 7th head from the right. You can’t see his full uniform just a head and shoulders.
Two look very similar to my great grandfather. We don’t have any pictures of my gg grandfather as during and after the navy he became a diver and moved to Durban to build the harbour, then died of a diving accident in 1902 aged 37. I believe all the photos were either left or taken by my gg grandmother who abandoned my great grandfather with her brother in Wales before moving to San Francisco. Odd and long story but no photos seem to exist until 1930 in that side of my family. It would have been lovely to find some of the Battens as they were all in the navy from 1780 onwards, my dad broke the pattern :)
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The chap you indicate in the back I took to be a midshipman as he looks fresh in face and the square hat indicates a young officer. I served in the Royal Navy many moons ago and these hats were worn by midshipman even in my day. Normally, there were two of these trainee officers on board a ship of any size.
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Thank you. My man might not be in the photo at all. I had his records to go by (attached) and found that photo and I thought it could be possible :)
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If I can be of any help in the Naval side of your research, by all means, keep in touch.
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Thank you Stob Ban, I shall definitely be in touch.
MJ
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Hi MJ,
Was having a look at the Ship's Listings you posted and HMS Excellent caught my eye stating a Leading Seaman joined Excellent 18th Sept. 1889 and on the 13th Dec.1889 passed professionally as a Ships Diver. Ships divers were a special breed in those days and in life they never grew too a grand old age. I've seen many a grave-stone with a small divers' helmet displayed, all representing early departures.
Your Great Grandfather would have been 23 years old or so and the Rating was easily in his grasp for Petty Officer. My guess is his promotion would have been imminent on becoming a fully qualified diver.
I do not know if these dates above are in line with your research but if in the affirmative then a search may not be in vain.
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Hi Stob Ban,
I am interested in researching every date and everything about Joseph Henry Batten (my gg grandfather). Nobody really spoke about him as he died in South Africa in 1902. I'd love to know more of what you know about divers back then. I have bought navy books, but all they say about divers is that they were very fit and healthy to be able to do the job. Not sure how fit he was while in South Africa, but he died of the bends or decompression sickness in an accident while building the harbour. I guess he left the navy to raise a family. What is the search you mention? He did join HMS Excellent then and was on it previously and later. I have attached his full record.
Many thanks,
MJ
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Hi MJ,
I was looking over your GG Grandfathers ship drafts and the first on his list is HMS Impregnable which was a Training Ship where he would have attended his basic training into the Royal Navy, which would be square bashing, splicing wire tying knots etc. The next draft listed, being Vernon, was a training depot for underwater demolition. The reason I call it a depot is it was stationed shore-side i.e. a shore establishment. Mind you we're still in the 1880 so I don't mean all the underwater torpedoes, class A divers and acoustics of today also armaments, all would be nearer the birth of all these; and interestingly HMS Vernon in these days trained Royal Navy Divers. So that would be possibly were you GG Grandfather trained as a Clearance Diver.
I'm not doubly sure he did his diver training in 1880 but with him linked to Vernon it's more than probable he requested a divers course at a later date. In 1887 it looks to me he was an Acting Petty Officer so he could full-fill Coxswain Duties.
I do hope this information gives some real insight into the ships and ranks your GG Grandfather held. I will go thru' more ships he served and maybe find more interesting history.
Kind Regards......................Ron.
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Hi Ron,
That's great to know more about his duties. Thank you so much for that. It's a shame there aren't any photos of him in the family. Nobody really spoke about him apart from the fact he was in the navy and died in South Africa, so this has been great to know just exactly the type of work he would have done. If you do find any more info, do let know, and thank you again.
MJ
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Thank you MJ it's my pleasure.
I read that your GG Grandfather was drafted three times to HMS Excellent which is a Shore Establishment in Portsmouth. Still there today. It is a Gunnery School of the highest level and ''takes no prisoners'', as the saying goes, not even dead ones. Your ancestor was a Leading Seaman, and a Gunnery Rating in 1884 and of course later a clearance diver. The Gunnery Courses he took would certainly be needed as the massive guns in those days sported 18'' MK Naval Guns on board these massive ships.
The first course he took was the 14th Feb 1884, others were 1888 and 1891. His pay would increase greatly and with the Divers course taken put him in a comfortable position, but, not too comfortable!!
Strangely, I was at HMS Excellent 80 years after your ancestor was there. I trained as a Gunnery Instructor and did several courses thru' my career in the Royal Navy. Today, there are no big guns, no huge shells, black cordite but now just Sea Cat Missiles, Polaris Missiles and others that hide themselves in submarines. Your ancestor, would be surprised at the least, to see the change from what it was.
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I will be in touch soon..........................Ron
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After digging down further than I expected the Royal and Army diving courses were being taught at Horsea Island, Portsmouth, not far from HMS Excellent; where I'm pretty sure Joseph would have been billeted. This would give easy access to the Island while doing the Diving Course in 1888. His diving course was completed on the 17th Feb. 1890.
He is written up for service on the 18th Feb.1890 to join HMS Conquest, but that same ship went ashore at Pemba Island off the Suaheli coast, East Africa; on the 15th Feb 1890. HMS Conquest was a Cruiser, a large ship with 14 guns and the gross weight being 2,380 tons. The Captain of the ship was Captain L. Oxley and the ship was commissioned in 1885. The latest reports were that the ship was in a dangerous position.
Joseph I imagine would have joined the ship as the propellers were damaged somewhat; so he and among other divers would have been needed in repairing the damage. Sadly, I have no idea when the actual date Joseph joined the ship. But it was sometime after 18th Feb. 1890.
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That's amazing that you are able to find such information out. Thank you for that. Yes, in Jan 1890 he was still on HMS Excellent when he married my gg grandmother on 25 Jan 1890. I have a medal record for him for the Ashanti Medal. Says he was on board HMS Conquest for the Vitu or Wituland Expedition on 26 Oct 1890. I tried to do a search for that expedition but nothing seems to come up apart from a very brief summary on Wikipedia. He also has the Egypt Medal (Suakin) and Khedive Star while on board HMS Briton in 1884 during the Mahdist War. I couldn't find anything that mentions what the navy did during the Mahdist War.
Many thanks,
MJ
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P.S I did live in Portsea Island in 1891 before he moved to South Africa and his wife live in Southsea when they married. I guess the diving was around Portsea Island then.
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I will paraphrase in reference to: the Wituland Expeditions, is in accordance with the 1890 Heligoland-Zanzibar Treaty on 18th June 1890.... Germany renounced it's protectorate and Britain to become part of British East Africa.
I obviously cut the Treaty short but have given you the main idea of its content....The Ashanti Medal is easy found on the computer and gives a very interesting story in why it was cast.
Well done your GG Grandfather.
My favourite place to visit while serving in the Royal Navy was spending time in Southsea. It has the most beautiful seafront, without a doubt. But my home base is Scotland were I now live......
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I just found an article about the Ashanti campaign, mentioning it was a campaign against the Sultan of Vitu or Witu. I have attached the medal roll as he has a cross in the clasp section and I wasn't sure what that meant. Plus, it looks like the medals were sent in 1895, which is when he was out of the Navy and living in Durban. I take it he never received the medal.
I know Southsea very well too. I grew up in Weymouth and Southampton and we'd visit Southsea a lot. We'd take the hovercraft across the isle of wight to visit Blackgang Chine :)
MJ
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Hi MJ,
This is what I remember from my younger days in reference to the Mahdist War and I'm fairly positive there were a contingent of twelve Royal Navy Sailors that did take part in the war. There was Captain Lord Bereford RN in charge of eleven sailors with a field gun which they put to good use against The Guided One. Seemingly, all sailors were slaughtered with the exception of Captain Bereford. There my memory fails me, but I'm sure, as in the movies, the good guys wins.....
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If Joseph was out the service and he never received his entitled medal there is a system where the family can apply to collect the medal on his behalf. My friend collected two Royal Navy medals, 42 years after he left the service. People do it all the time. Admittedly 125 years have past but that doesn't matter; but the downside is, possibly that medal we are talking off may be defunct , i.e. no longer made.
There is one thing drew my attention, on the ships books: in the Ratings List I noticed he was rated to Petty Officer 2 Class also Coxswain 2 class. He maintained that rank for nearly a year and in HMS Excellent he lost his rank back to Leading Seaman. For some reason he lost that rate due to his conduct or constantly being late coming off shore, i.e. absent without leave. Nothing unusual about that, happens all the time.
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Thank you for all this info.
I had a look, unfortunately, they don’t re-issue medals that were issued before WW2 now, unless they are medals like the Victoria Cross etc.
So Joseph was late a lot. Makes sense. I wonder if that’s why I can’t find him on the 1881 census :) haha. He was supposed to be onboard HMS Briton which I have found the census for, but he’s not on the census for it. Knowing the Battens in my family, being AWOL doesn’t surprise me :)
MJ
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Hi MJ, I normally deal mostly with Genealogy, prefer Scottish interests, and have accumulated a mass of peoples names and Batten came up in a search. I came up with some Batten names, and co-incidentally, low and behold, came up with three Battens interred into the Royal Navy.
I'll put the briefest of details of them, hopingly you may recognise the names. A big maybe!! They come from the 1911 census era. Two are English, one Irish.
Royal Navy: James Batten, aged 29, From C/O Wicklow. Dublin. Royal Navy: Harry Batten, aged 23, From Kent. England. Royal Navy: Arthur G Batten, aged 22, Hants, England. One or two Batten's I have downloaded have served in The Royal Yacht, Britannia.
As I see it from the Ships Listings Joseph did serve onboard HMS Briton, from 30th March 1881 till 30th April 1884. Subsequently, joining the Duke of Wellington on 1 May 1884. He picked up his Able Seaman's rate on board Briton. The reason he was not on the 1881 Census Form, he was at sea on HMS Briton for three years.............................Ron.
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From what I have read online the Egypt Medal and the Khedive Star were clasps to be added to the Ashanti Medal.
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Ah right. Now you will know for sure.
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Hi Ron,
Yes, the two English Battens are descendants. We all seem to come from the one family from Somerset way back, obviously they all moved out. There was a story that at some point we are related to Sir William Batten (Mount Batten in Plymouth is named after him). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Batten - but I haven't been able to find a link, but probably distant cousins somewhere.
I did have a question about Joseph Batten the father's navy record. I wasn't sure what the writing at the end of his service meant. To be honest the handwriting isn't great haha.
Cheers,
MJ
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Was Joseph here your father and were the dates indicated 20th century Too, was ''your father'' ever serve in submarines. The first ship is HMS Ajax the other two were submarines. The character: two were good, one very good. The line second from bottom reads, G & L Trace sent 6 December 76. Bottom line....Reads W. 1st March 77. The scribble to the right and up a little reads: Trinal of Service Refuted.
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Hi Ron,
Joseph was the father of the Diver Joseph Henry Batten. I just wasn't sure what G & L TRACE and Service Refuted etc? What happened ad what do those scribbles mean?
MJ
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I presume the word Trinal was an abbrev: of the word Tribunal and the sentence in it's entirety would be found in The Royal Navy Queens Regulations. Her Majesty Queen Victoria of course. i.e. 'Tribunal Of Service Refuted'. The date 1864.