RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: Taylor94 on Saturday 04 April 20 15:28 BST (UK)
-
I cant find much about these arms and they only seem to appear on the Hobson pedigree in the Visitation of London 1633/1634.
According to Burkes Armory (Tenuous source) this is all that is listed other than the Visitation -
Hobson (co.Middlesex 1633) I assume just taken from the visitation pedigree.
'Ar. on a chev. az. betw. three torteaux three cinquefoils or, a chief vaire or and az.'
Crest - ' A lions head afrontee ar. charge with three torteaux'
William Hobson, Esq, of Great Glen, Leicestershire and London, gave the Pedigree in 1633/1634. He was apprenticed in 1606 to William Ensor of the Worshipful Company of Haberdashers. Listed as 'William, son of Robert Hobson, Yeoman, of Great Glen'
The Hobsons are listed as Freeholders in the Village of Great Glen in the mid to late 1500s.
I notice that there is another Hobson family in London who have a very similar, if not the same Coat of Arms.
Noted by Burkes Armory and the Visitation of Hampshire.
Hobson of Marylebone Park, London and Hampshire/Surrey.
'Ar. on a chev. az. betw. three torteaux as many cinqufoils of the first, a chief chequy or and of the second'
Crest - 'A griffin pass. per pale erm. and or, beaked, membered, and holding in the beak a key gold'
I note that the crests are different but the arms themselves appear to be very similar, could this mean that these 2 Hobson families are linked somehow or do they happen to just have a similar coat of arms and the same name? Cadet branches?
William Hobson, Esq, of Glen and London, states that his grandfather is a 'William Hobson of the North Country' but this seems incorrect as Williams grandfather, according to wills appears to be a Thomas Hobson, Yeoman, of Glen, who dies there in 1570 and is one of the principal freeholders holding 3 yardlands and then that Thomas is son of a Robert Hobson, Yeoman, of Glen, who dies there and leaves a will in 1550.
Information about Marylebone Park is - 'At the end of the 15th century Thomas Hobson bought up the greater part of the manor and in 1544 his son Thomas exchanged it with Henry VIII, who enclosed the northern part of the manor as a deer park, the distant origin of Regent's Park.'
I filled out the Hobson of Glen pedigree as I descend from William's eldest brother Thomas, who was a freeholder in Glen in 1630 and was in possession of the heir male entailed 3 yardlands his grandfather had in 1570.
-
The Hobson family of Marylebone Park are then shown in the Visitation of Sussex using the same if not similar crest to what the Hobson family of Glen list on their pedigree. They are not using the griffin but a Leopards face frontee whereas the Hobsons of Glen use a Lions face frontee.
-
Dear Fellow Researcher, Thank you for posting this - it is very interesting as I am descended from the Hobsons of Great Glen. With regard to the visitation of London is the bolder portion of the tree added by yourself? Asking as in my research I also have a William (son of Thomas H and Mary nee Davenport who doesn't seem to appear so I am wondering if I have gone wrong somewhere ). With regard to similar but different coats of arms - these only relate to an individual not a family. If passed on to next generation then the recipient would have to change some element of it to make it different. One thing about the Hobson is the multiple Thomas's, William's and Robert's etc which doesn't make research easy but at least there are a few wills etc out there. Regards Amanda
-
Hello,
Yes, I'm very familiar with how arms work. Although the arms listed by William in London insinuate a connection with the Hobsons of Hampshire and Middlesex although I cant see the connection. Not to mention that William seems to have not known who his grandfather actually was as his father Roberts father was Thomas Hobson, Yeoman, of Glen, who held entailed land and his father was Robert Hobson, Yeoman, of Glen who also held the entailed land so I'm not sure where William thought his grandfather was 'William Hobson of the North Country'.
How do you descend from the Hobsons? Yes, The bold is from me as the London pedigree was given by William whereas I descend from the eldest son Thomas who inherited the entailed land in Great Glen although I'm not sure why Thomas's line was not expanded upon in Nichols nor why the family did not enter into the Visitation of Leicester 1683.
Yes, Thomas who married Mary Davenport only had 3 children who lived into adulthood. Two sons Robert and Thomas and a daughter Catherine. Somebody on Ancestry as uploaded a tree but I fear they have not viewed the parish records and have lumped two Thomas's together and mixed them up. It took me a while to untangle them. It was Thomas Hobson the Elder, Gentleman, of Glen who married Mary Davenport in 1673. Thomas Hobson the Younger is his cousin who is also baptising at the same time.
-
Hi, Many thanks for your reply. Well I thought I was descended from Thomas H & Mary nee Davenport. Did this Thomas's cousin also marry a Mary? I had Thomas H & Mary nee Davenport having Robert in 1674, Thomas in 1677, Ann in 1681, William in 1682, Unnamed in 1687, Catherine 1690 and Richard in 1694 -1694 and unnamed in 1696-1696. This is now in doubt and I will have to doublecheck. I thought I was descended from Ann Hobson who was daug of Willm, who was son of Richard,who was son of Thomas(b1747), who was son of Thomas (b1712), who was son of William (b1682 & d1712?), who was son of Thomas (b1657), who was son of Robert (b1625).Have you read the book "A Leicestershire Yeoman: The Story of the Hobson Family of East Leicestershire"- I found it very interesting? Lastly have you looked into the story of the civil war gold found by Thomas (b1590) - have you found anything online about this you could point me towards please? Any tips gratefully received. Regards A.
-
Hello,
I haven't seen that book but If the author of the book is the same person (Which I think it is) who I contacted on ancestry, their tree is slightly wrong. He has confused Thomas Hobson the Elder and Younger and I don't think he has seen the pedigree of London 1634. I gave him much helpful information but I got no reply back, maybe because my research conflicts with what is in his book. EDIT *(I have just read it now on kindle, It does contain errors and a lot of assumptions which are not in records and as suspected it does mix up Thomas the Elder and Younger)
This is what I have, checked against wills and parish records.
Thomas Hobson the Elder, Gentleman, of Glen 1649-1719 = Mary Davenport 1651-1712, daughter of Richard Davenport.
They marry 1673 Great Glen - 'Thomas Hobson the Elder and Mary Davenport'.
Its important to remember that this Thomas is the ''Elder'' whereas the other Thomas baptising around the same time was the ''Younger'' they are not father and son but cousins or uncle and nephew.
They have these children -
Robert Hobson 1674 - 1736 Yeoman, marries in London to Mary Sillby not Spillsby 1701, Clandestine marriage. This is whom I descend from.
Thomas Hobson 1677-1750 Gentleman of Glen. Appears to die without issue, Estate is passed to sister Catherine via his will of 1749.
Ann Hobson 1681-? Not sure what happened to Ann. There is no burial for her as an infant.
Catherine Hobson 1687-1687
Catherine Hobson 1690-1756 Marries Robert Haymes/Hames, High Sheriff of Leicestershire. Executrix of her brother Thomas's estate in 1750.
Richard Hobson 1694-1694
Richard Hobson 1696-1696
These are the only children I find for them.
I don't see in the records the William Hobson born 1682 that you mention? Where did you get him from?
-
Thanks for the reply - Do you happen to know Thomas the younger's wife/childrens names (if he had any) please? I am going to have to go back on my research notes to see where I have gone wrong - so many folk with the same names! I can see mention of Thomas Senior on page 63/64 in the Hobson book with him described as a descendant of Robert's brother William - will take this with a pinch of salt for now. I will check the possible connections and try and figure out where William came from. I did have plans to visit the records office but a pandemic intervened. Regards A
-
Thomas Hobson the Younger was married to an Elizabeth.
What is strange is that the book includes a picture of Thomas the Elders mural in Glen church which displays his age but the author completely disregards this and all wills pertaining to this Thomas. Not to mention the parish records clearly state (which you can view for yourself on FindMyPast) that it was Thomas the Elder/Senior who married Mary Davenport and who died in 1719 and their children are baptised with Thomas as Elder to differentiate them. Thomas the Elder was the son of Robert, he also baptised his first son called Robert. Carrying on the naming convention of Thomas and Robert in the heir line.
Thomas the Younger was likely the son or grandson of William, brother of Robert who died 1658. Both sons of Thomas Hobson of Glen 1597-1664 who aquires the bag of gold during the civil war.
The only record of William Hobson is a baptism in 1683 Earl Shilton, Leicestershire. Son of William. This is the one who likely goes to glen. He would be a descendant of Roberts brother William.
-
Thomas Hobson in his will of 1664 gives the main land in glen to his son Roberts son Thomas the Elder as he is the male heir. He then gives his land in Earl Shilton to son William.
-
The Hobson family of Marylebone Park are then shown in the Visitation of Sussex using the same if not similar crest to what the Hobson family of Glen list on their pedigree. They are not using the griffin but a Leopards face frontee whereas the Hobsons of Glen use a Lions face frontee.
In Heraldry, lions and leopards are virtually indistinguishable.
E.G. the badge on the shirts of then England football team show 3 leopards, but they are almost always referred to as 3 lions :D
-
I have no knowledge of these two families but, to answer the original question, yes, the two coats of arms do suggest a close relationship as they are only differenced by the design of the portion "in chief".
Belgraveshed is not quite right in saying "With regard to similar but different coats of arms - these only relate to an individual not a family. If passed on to the next generation then the recipient would have to change some element of it to make it different." . The original Arms would descend to the eldest son undifferenced, whilst other sons would difference their version. This is what may have happened in this case but, if so, which line is the "original" could be hard to discover.
On the other hand, heraldry was not particularly well controlled in England at this time and it is possible that one party has merely adopted similar arms from a family of the same name !
A quick look at Burke's General Armory, unreliable though it is (!), shows a series of Hopson families have similar Arms - 'Ar. on a chev. az. betw. three torteaux' (or variants) and then various charges which might suggest a common origins with your Hobsons. You may need to go back earlier to find the common ground ! Good hunting !
Maec
-
From What I can make out (The Great Glen registers are quite bad and very faded in places and the scribe wasn't the neatest)
This is Thomas Hobson the Younger's children with wife Elizabeth (I cant find a marriage)
Elizabeth 1673 Great Glen.
Thomas 1679 Great Glen.
Elizabeth 1682 Great Glen.
*William Hobson of Glen who marries Mary Smith*
John 1686 Great Glen.
Grace 1689 Great Glen.
Isabel 1692 Great Glen.
Ann 1697 Great Glen.
I believe that William Hobson who marries Mary Smith is a son of Thomas the Younger but his baptism has been lost in the records (Great Glen registers fairly bad in the late 1600s). Likely he was born between 1682 and 1686.
Thomas Hobson the Younger dies 1727 and has a will where he mentions his grandson Thomas, son of his lately deceased son William (Who died in 1712) and his daughters and their husbands (He is now called Senior in the Register and on his will because Thomas the Elder died in 1719 and he is now the oldest Thomas Hobson in the village. His grandson Thomas, son of his deceased son William is the youngest, because after Thomas the Younger dies in 1727, Thomas Hobson, son of Thomas the Elder becomes the Senior Thomas Hobson as per his will in 1749)
I'm not sure who Thomas the Younger's father is but I fairly sure it is the William Hobson of Glen who dies in 1682. This William was, I think the brother of Robert Hobson and Uncle of Thomas Hobson the Elder. He was also married to a Grace (One of Thomas the Youngers daughters are called Grace) The Great Glen registers are missing for this period of the 1650s/1660s.
-
I have no knowledge of these two families but, to answer the original question, yes, the two coats of arms do suggest a close relationship as they are only differenced by the design of the portion "in chief".
Belgraveshed is not quite right in saying "With regard to similar but different coats of arms - these only relate to an individual not a family. If passed on to the next generation then the recipient would have to change some element of it to make it different." . The original Arms would descend to the eldest son undifferenced, whilst other sons would difference their version. This is what may have happened in this case but, if so, which line is the "original" could be hard to discover.
On the other hand, heraldry was not particularly well controlled in England at this time and it is possible that one party has merely adopted similar arms from a family of the same name !
A quick look at Burke's General Armory, unreliable though it is (!), shows a series of Hopson families have similar Arms - 'Ar. on a chev. az. betw. three torteaux' (or variants) and then various charges which might suggest a common origins with your Hobsons. You may need to go back earlier to find the common ground ! Good hunting !
Maec
I had thought that William Hobson who gave the pedigree in 1634 might have ''borrowed'' the arms, as he himself had rose to a standing of Esquire and his daughters had all married quite prosperously. It is odd how he seemingly knows his maternal grandfather, William Wells (I have William Wells will) but doesn't know his paternal grandfather despite the Hobson family wealth resting upon the 150 acre male entailed estate since 1554 and William indeed noting that his brother Thomas was the heir of his father Robert.
-
Thank you for the clarification re relationships and trees and re inheriting coats of arms I will remember that in future. I think I understand my error on my tree - I have William being the son of Thomas the Elder which is wrong and he is likely to be son of Thomas the younger (who is likely Thomas the Elder's cousin). Thanks for your help on this Regards A.
-
Looking back at my notes I did find the following which may be of interest - Part of doc in National Archive ("Inspeximus of Letters Patent) Made at the request of Robert Kendall, gent.
Recites Letters Patent of 21 Nov 1556 [includes following reference...] " All the messuages, cottages, lands etc. in the occupation of Robert Wyeth, Simon Prior, Thomas Hobson and others in Glen Magna, lately part of the lands of Henry late Duke of Suffolk.
-
This is referring to the land Thomas was farming at some point prior to 1556, He seems to have acquired it during the sentencing of the Duke of Suffolk in 1553.
Thomas's son Robert appears to buy this outright in 1600. It was in part the possession of Thomas Wells (I'm trying to see if he is a relative of Roberts wife Margery Wells)
The land is 120 acres with 2 farms and a close of land.
Robert was granted letters patent for the same land after his father in 1579, it appears to be male entailed in the wills, and the Hobson family have this land until at least the death of Thomas Hobson Sr in 1719.