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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: garlands on Sunday 05 April 20 14:55 BST (UK)
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In her Will, Mary CARROLL (see separate thread) mentions her sister, Nancy, and Nancy’s children (un-named). A search for the birth of Nancy CARROLL has drawn a complete blank, as has a search for her marriage. Likewise, searching for Agnes, Anne, Hannah etc has been equally fruitless.
Nancy is not listed with the family in 1911 so, presumably, was born after the Census.
Can anyone help, please?
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When and where did Nacy die and how old was she? Have you seen her death certificate?
Which of your previous threads does Nancy occur in?
If you are creating a new thread about the same family it is always helpful to include a link to the previous thread so that people can easily find it and don't duplicate information that has been found already.
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1. Sorry, I have no data on Nancy except for the mention in Mary's Will
2. The related thread is 'Mary CARROLL'. I'm afraid I don't know how to create a link
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Turn up the relevant thread then copy and paste the URL into this post
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Nancy can be a corruption of Ann/Anne
Presume the other names appear on the 1911 entry?
The only way to find info after 1911 is to use Scotlands People to search for BMD's
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CaroleW
Your 17.53; sounds easy - where do I find the URL?
Your 17.56; I've been using Scotlands People extensively and been overwhelmed by the number of female CARROLL births in 1911 and after which might turn out to be Nancy. I've turned to RootsChat in the hope that someone might be able to help me through the morass.
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1. Sorry, I have no data on Nancy except for the mention in Mary's Will
2. The related thread is 'Mary CARROLL'. I'm afraid I don't know how to create a link
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=821326
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Thanks. I'm sure that will help eliminate duplication.
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On your device - Where do you input a web address (www) when you want to visit a website? That is the same part of your Device which displays the URL.
If you click on the link provided by Forfarian & then look at the top of the page it takes you to - there it is.
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The 1911 census lists at 9b Carfin Road, Wishaw, Parish of Dalziel
Bartho Carroll, head, 48, married, puddler iron trade, born Bothwell
Annie Carroll, wife, 48, married 7 years, 6 children, 4 living, born Cambusnethan
Annie Boreland, daughter, 16, single, shop assistant, born Cambusnethan
Jeanie Boreland, daughter, 12, school, born Bellshill
Mary Carroll, daughter, 5, born Bellshill
Kitty Carroll, daughter, 3, born Bellshill
Bartholomew Carroll married Annie Wilson or Boreland in Glasgow in 1904. At 48, she is unlikely to have had another child after the 1911 census, so it does appear that Nancy can't be Mary's sister unless Annie Boreland was also known as Nancy Carroll, which also seems unlikely.
However there is a death of Annie Watson Wilson or Borland or Carroll, aged 85, in Dalziel in 1953. If this is accurate it would mean she was really only 43 in 1911, and another child is possible.
In 1901 at Borland's Land, Craigneuk, are
Annie Borland, head, widow, 32, grocer, born Wishaw
Annie W Borland, daughter, 7, school, born Wishaw
Jennie M Borland, daughter, 2, born Craigneuk
Joan Borland, under 1 year, born Craigneuk
Elizabeth McIntosh, aunt, widow, 72, born Wishaw
Annie Wilson and John Borland were married in Cambusnethan in 1894.
There is a death in Barrhead in 1998 of an Agnes Carroll, other surname McLaughlin, mother's maiden surname Wilson, aged 84. This implies a birth in 1913/1914, which is just about possible if the younger age for Annie Wilson or Borland or Carroll is correct. However I don't see an obvious marriage, though there are various marriages of Ann Carrol(l)s to McLaughlins and variants, so I may be entirely wrong about her.
(Geography: Most of Motherwell in in the parish of Dalziel. Most of Wishaw is in the parish of Cambusnethan. But Wishaw extends into Dalziel, and Motherwell into Cambusnethan.)
Who was the executor of Mary Carroll's will?
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Forfarian,
Thanks for your very extensive post. I'm afraid that I've put you, and everyone else who's shown an interest, to a lot of un-necessary work, for which I apologize most humbly. The 1901 and 1911 census data I have, but thank you for confirming my findings. What has turned out to be a complete bombshell is the very last sentence in your post, viz. 'Who was the executor of Mary Carroll's Will?'
The Will has been sitting on my desk for some weeks, and I had totally failed to pay any attention to Clause #2 which states:-
I appoint my sisters Catherine Carroll and Nancy Kirby to be Executors and Trustees of this my Will.
Hopefully, this will point me to Nancy's marriage and thence to her birth and who knows what else.
Thank you once again for your interest and massive help.
Apologies for my incompetence.
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From the burial records of Cambusnethan cemetery, Wishaw.
Plot E924.
JOAN P. BORLAND, Motherwell, aged 11 months.
Parents - John P. Borland and Annie Wilson.
Interred in E924 on 20th July 1901.
JOHN P. BORLAND, grocer, Flemington, aged 47 years, married.
Parents - Thomas Borland and Janet Parker.
Interred in E924 on 28th April 1900.
The records I have finish at 1916 but I will find out who else, if anyone, is in that plot after 1900.
I went to the cemetery today and checked but, unfortunately, there is no headstone at this grave.
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What has turned out to be a complete bombshell is the very last sentence in your post, viz. 'Who was the executor of Mary Carroll's Will?'
The Will has been sitting on my desk for some weeks, and I had totally failed to pay any attention to Clause #2 which states:-
I appoint my sisters Catherine Carroll and Nancy Kirby to be Executors and Trustees of this my Will.
Thank you for the best chuckle I have had today :)
Glad it was helpful!
Agnes Carroll married Charles Ernest Kirby in 1944
Annie Carroll married Gordon Dalton Kirby in 1946.
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Forfarian
Glad you enjoyed my discomfort! Thanks for your efforts and again, apologies.
Lodger,
Thanks for your interest. I have the relevant certificates but it's nice to learn about the burials.
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The bad news is that the marriage in 1944 of Agnes CARROLL to Charles KIRBY is not ours! Agnes's parents are not the same as those of Mary.
No certificate is available for the marriage of Annie CARROLL to Gordon KIRBY in 1946 because of the '75 - year' rule.
As these are the only 2 recorded marriages of a female CARROLL to a male KIRBY, it looks as if this really is a 'brick wall', at least until January, 2021.
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No certificate is available for the marriage of Annie CARROLL to Gordon KIRBY in 1946 because of the '75 - year' rule.
Normally you can order a copy of a post -cutoff certificate to be sent to you.
However they have discontinued this meantime because they are closed because of coronavirus. So you might be able to get a copy before 2021 if the crisis passes. Though by then you might as well wait a few months longer until 2021.
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Hi Garlands
Who reported the deaths of parents Bartholomew and Annie?
Monica
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Monica,
The short answer is - I don't know. Do you think it would be worth my while to find out? What extra information might it provide?
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In the light of events over the last few days, I think we have to conclude that there was another member of the CARROLL family whom they named Annie and, because Annie BORLAND was already a family member, it was necessary to distinguish between them, so the newcomer was known as Nancy.
In the 1911, Mary’s mother reported having had 6 children, 4 of whom were alive at that time, and these are all listed. Therefore, Annie CARROLL must have been born AFTER the census, i.e. 1911 onwards
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Just to conclude the information for plot E924 at Cambusnethan cemetery.
The other two interments after Joan and John were -
ANNIE BORLAND BECK, housewife. Died at Glasgow Royal Infirmary, usual residence 13 Shieldmuir St Wishaw. Aged 29 years, married.
Parents - John Borland & Annie Wilson.
Interred in E924 on 14th March 1924.
BARCLAY CARROLL, retired. Wishaw, aged 88 years, married.
Parents - Michael Carroll & Mary Reilly.
Interred in E924 on 2nd February 1951.
The lair would only hold 4 adults, so any other family member who died after Barclay would have been buried elsewhere.
In the 1925 street directory for the joint burgh of Motherwell & Wishaw there is -
Carroll B, 13 Shieldmuir Street Wishaw.
There were several people with the surname Beck, all living around this part of Shieldmuir Street, commonly called the "English Buildings".
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Very interesting. I have Annie BECK's death certificate, acquired to help me eliminate her in the hunt for Nancy, but where did Barclay CARROLL come from? Was he Bartholomew CARROLL's brother? He's certainly of the same vintage.
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Could Barclay and Bartholomew be the same person? He was still married at the time of death, so why would he take up the last space in that lair? Where then, was his wife buried and where was Annie buried?
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All good points. Certainly, if Barclay and Bartholomew are one and the same, that could be the reason why I've been unable to find a birth for Bart. I have the same father's name for them both, but I have Bart's mother as Mary HEALY which might be because I've mis-read REILLY.
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In the 1911, Mary’s mother reported having had 6 children, 4 of whom were alive at that time, and these are all listed. Therefore, Annie CARROLL must have been born AFTER the census, i.e. 1911 onwards
This question in the 1911 census should relate only to current marriage. How many years did she show as married to Bartholomew? From Forfarian marriage year earlier (1904), 6 or 7 yrs? The Borland children should not have been included in this number....but misunderstandings and mistakes creep in.
Monica
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The 1911 census lists at 9b Carfin Road, Wishaw, Parish of Dalziel
Bartho Carroll, head, 48, married, puddler iron trade, born Bothwell
Annie Carroll, wife, 48, married 7 years, 6 children, 4 living, born Cambusnethan
Annie Boreland, daughter, 16, single, shop assistant, born Cambusnethan
Jeanie Boreland, daughter, 12, school, born Bellshill
Mary Carroll, daughter, 5, born Bellshill
Kitty Carroll, daughter, 3, born Bellshill
Bartholomew Carroll married Annie Wilson or Boreland in Glasgow in 1904....
From Forfarian's previous post.
Monica
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Well spotted Monica but I think, technically, the two questions asked to married women were -
a) How long have you been married?
b) How many live children have you given birth to and how many are still alive.
Annie would have given the correct answers, the first question didn't ask how many times the woman had been married and the second question didn't ask about issue from current or previous marriages.
This reminds me of the information given on 1855 birth certificates, it lists children, including sex and whether alive or dead of the husband and then after the wife's details it states how many children she has given birth to. The numbers do not always tally as one or the other could have been married previously.
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Bit of a grey area isn't it...
Have made some headway. I have found a shipping manifest which lists:
Gordon Dalton-Kirby 27 engineer
Nancy Dalton-Kirby 29 housewife
Carole Anne Dalton-Kirby 4
Gordon Dalton-Kirby 3
Their address is given as 84 Craigneuk St Wishaw. They show as resident in Scotland but heading to Australia to live permanently. They left on the 'Strathmore' from London on 20 Dec 1951. Arrival port given as Sydney Australia.
Explains why there were no death entries in Scotland for them. So, the 1948 marriage is certainlly theirs, sadly the one you cannot view yet.
Given the age of Nancy here, born c. 1922, she cannot be the daughter of Ann Wilson :-\ She could be the natural daughter of one of the Borland girls, Mary Carroll (would have been 16/17 in 1922) or maybe adopted by the family? The marriage cert will hopefully provide more details.
Monica
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Possible birth entry for Nancy?
Annie CARROLL
1922
639/ 823
Dalziel
This will help confirming mother details as it may that when Nancy married, she may have given other names...
Have you confirmed Annie Wilson's birth? What were the names of her parents from her marriages or death regs?
Monica
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Well done.
The bits of the jigsaw are slowly beginning to fit together. I've found the birth of an Annie CARROLL in 1922 in Dalziel but, of course, I can't access the certificate because of the 100-year rule. This must be Nancy KIRBY.
Whether-or-not she is the daughter of Bart and Annie CARROLL will depend, to some extent, on Annie's age. Bearing in mind that her age in 1901 is given as 32 she could be 5 years less than that recorded in 1911, making her 53 in 1922 and not 58. Whilst even 53 is a bit late, it is by no means impossible, so she could be Mary's natural sister.
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Do you think the family returned from Australia? I only ask because it seems a bit strange for Mary to nominate someone living in Australia as one of her executors. For the remnants of Mary's estate to pass to Nancy's offspring seems natural, but an Australian executor?
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From the Australian electoral rolls, Nancy and husband Gordon remained in Australia.
In 1954, they show in Fortitude Valley, Brisbane, Queensland
In 1977 and 1980, the show in New Lambton, Newcastle, New South Wales. Nancy's occupation is that of a secretary. Gordon remains an engineer.
The electoral rolls I am looking at only go up to 1980.
Monica
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Very interesting. I have Annie BECK's death certificate, acquired to help me eliminate her in the hunt for Nancy, but where did Barclay CARROLL come from? Was he Bartholomew CARROLL's brother? He's certainly of the same vintage.
From Lodger's details, Barclay and Bartholomew are first name variants. See www.whatsinaname.net/male-names/Parthal%C3%A1n.html
Birth registration showing on the FS index as:
Barclay Carol
b. 2 Feb 1863 Bothwell, Lanarkshire
Parents Michael Carol and Mary Haly
www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQYV-BJ2
At least two brothers for him, John 1856 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQYV-W45 and James in 1866 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQY2-Z9G
Mother certainly showing as Haly/Haley etc.
From 1881:
Michael Carroll 55 Labourer In Ironworks b. Lietrim Ireland
Mary Carroll 50 b. Sligo, Ireland
Michael Carroll 29 Puddler In Ironworks b. Chapelhall, Lanarkshire
John Carroll 22 Puddler In Ironworks b. Bellshill, Lanarkshire
Barclay Carroll 18 Puddler In Ironworks b. Bellshill, Lanarkshire
James Carroll 12 b. Bellshill, Lanarkshire
Address: Milnwood New Bothwell Lanark
The family were Roman Catholic it seems. Possible death for Mary in Holytown in 1883, aged 55. Spelling of surname is Carroll. Other entry on SP with a different spellling version for the same record.
1871 Census shows an elder son, Patrick born c 1850 in Ireland and Mary aged 9. Barclay is showing as Bartholomew (or Bertha in the transcription I am looking at ::)).
The birth certs of Barclay and James will let you confirm date and place of parents' marriage.
Monica
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Monica,
Absolutely fantastic. It's going to take a while to absorb all that information. Very many thanks
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The 1881 has 3 CARROLL brothers all born in Bellshill. I can find none of them on SP. Also, no trace of Barclay/Bartholomew CARROLL anywhere (except for one in Dingwall)
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Have you got access to Ancestry, garlands?
When I was looking around last night, I found a poor relief application online there for father and son Michael.
I couldn't see anything specific for Bartholomew, but for the other children you had:
Patrick married and living in America with his family.
Michael married (later appications for son show him widowed and in dire straits, needing support in years to come).
John married but not much more.
James, sadly, in a mental instituion for many years.
This application came after the death of wife in the late 1880s.
Monica
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The 1881 has 3 CARROLL brothers all born in Bellshill. I can find none of them on SP. Also, no trace of Barclay/Bartholomew CARROLL anywhere (except for one in Dingwall)
Bellshill is in the parish of Bothwell. It only became a registration district in its own right in 1893.
The births of John Carrol (with only one 'l') and Barclay and James Carol (one 'r', one 'l') were registered in Bothwell in 1857, 1863 and 1866 respectively.
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Monica,
No, except once-a-month when I assist at a Family Search group at my local library, which is currently cancelled until further notice. I use Find my Past.
That's a fascinating insight into the harsh reality of those times. To say that life was hard is a massive understatement.
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Forfarian
Many thanks. I'll have another look
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BTW, Annie Wilson's parents were Stewart Wilson and Ann Imrie. Her birth entry here:
Annie Watson Wilson 1868 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ9P-C6T
So from the range of ages we have seen:
1894 - Age 26 at the time of her first marriage which would be correct
1901 - Age 32, fits well with birth year
1911 - Age 48 which is at least 6 years older, should be 43
1922 - She would have been 54 when Annie/Nancy was born. Too old to be her mother as we suspect
1953 - Her age at death showing as 85...which is correct
So, really only her age on the 1911 census it out. I do not think you have checked the original image on SP? It may be that her age reads as 43 not 48.
Monica
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By 1881. Annie Wilson was already out of the home working. She shows, aged 13, domestic servant in the McIntosh household at 1 Old Ravenscraig Hamlet, Dalziel.
Her family on the same census year:
Stewart Wilson 39 coal miner b. Douglas, Lanark
Ann Wilson 36 b. Wishaw
George Wilson 15
Lizzie Wilson 11
Agnes Wilson 8
Mary Wilson 6
Maggie Wilson 4
Bella Wilson 10 Months
Address: 2 Old Ravenscraig Hamlet, Dalziel (next door to Annie).
Ann Imrie died in 1885. Husband Stewart remarried in 1885 in Edinbugh to a Helen Ferguson. He died in 1901 in Craigneuk.
You should be able to confirm these details on SP.
Monica
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I have a print of the original image.Lots of 3's and 8's on the page, all of which are very clear. I suspect the enumerator made a reading/transcription error. I was an enumerator in 1981, and some of the returns were problematic, so it wouldn't surprise me if that's where the error was introduced - we shall never know.
There was an instance in my generation where there was an unexpected new arrival to a 55-year old mother. In Nancy's case, only a DNA test will establish the facts. For the moment, I favour a 'not proven' verdict.
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Monica - thanks, I shall
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There was an instance in my generation where there was an unexpected new arrival to a 55-year old mother. In Nancy's case, only a DNA test will establish the facts. For the moment, I favour a 'not proven' verdict.
You are right. Hopefully facts will be clear when you are able to view her birth cert.
Can I ask something? How do you connect to these lines?
Monica
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Simple answer, I don't!
I have a very good tennis-playing friend who is Mary's daughter and, when she learned of my volunteering at the library, mentioned that she wanted to trace her family but didn't know how to go about it, so I offered to help, and here I am.
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And here we all are! Let's see what else comes up for her :)
Monica
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Thanks - you're all most generous. She is most appreciative of all your contributions.
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Stewart Wilson is interred in the old churchyard of Cambusnethan.
The plot was owned, in Victorian times, by George Wilson and James Loudon.
STEWART WILSON, aged 58 years, interred on 7th March 1901.
also in this plot -
ANN WILSON, aged 41 years, interred on 11th December 1885.
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There is a JEANIE BORLAND, widow of George Wilson recorded in the poor relief claims for Dalziel parish.
In November 1903 she is aged 32 years and living at Borland's Land, Craigneuk. Her birthplace is given as Kilmarnock.
In the original claim of 1903 she has 4 children - Stewart aged 10 years, Janet aged 6 years, Jeanie aged 5 years and Georgina aged 2 1/2 years.
She subsequently gives birth to an un-named illegitimate child in 1908. The claim continues through to 1920.
In a previous claim of 1901, she is the illegitimate daughter of the deceased Janet Borland.
Am I muddying the waters here?
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Lodger
Your 09.32
Our Jeannie BORLAND m Edward McKNIGHT on 06.07.1917 when she was aged 18, so it looks as if we have 2 instances of the same name
Still looking at your 09.09
Thanks
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Monica,
If you put your ear very close to my mouth, you might just be able to hear me mutter through clenched teeth "you were right...…..". You'll definitely hear me shout "......….but only 95%". What's this idiot talking about? To recap:-
My friend (Sheila's) mother is Mary CARROLL, and she left her estate "...… and to my sister, Nancy...." hence this thread as I searched for Nancy. Having found her, you expressed your doubt, because of her age, that Mary's mother was also Nancy's mother. Now, listen very carefully, you won't hear me say this again; you were right.
Sheila has spoken to a descendent of Nancy in Australia and been informed that Nancy's mother was in fact not Catherine AS YOU HYPOTHESISED (there goes your 5% fall from perfection), but Mary, Sheila's mother! To say we were surprised is a massive understatement.
Obviously, Sheila and Nancy are half-sisters, so what is Sheila's relationship to Nancy's daughter? Is Sheila her Aunt?
Anyway, all joking apart, we're eternally grateful to you and everyone else who's helped in our search; a genuinely collaborative effort. Thank you.
George
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George, you have made me laugh on reading this today!
Well done for following up the link we found in Australia too as I thought the answers would help confirm details better.
So happy that everyone is in the right place now with this all and thank you for the update to this thread. We always get left curious as to what goes on to happen ;)
Take care.
Monica