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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Gilby on Sunday 05 April 20 15:08 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
I’m trying to get my head around a bit of Latin in the Inquisition of Ulster (Inquisitionum in Officio Rotulorum Cancellariae Hiberniae). I was never taught Latin, so that puts me at a bit of a disadvantage, though I have picked up a few terms used in genealogy.
Normally I would google translate one word at a time, but in this case there are so many abbreviations that I’m not having much success. Can anyone help?
Thanks,
Gilby
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In that place on the same day
The Earl of Antrim was seised as of fee of the town and land of Ballintoy 120 acres, and of Ballylagh 120 acres, and, then being thus seised, he transferred the premises to a certain Nynyon Stewart of Ballintoy and to his heirs, for ever. The aforesaid Nynyon Stewart died 14 years later. Archibald Stewart, his son and heir, was then of full age. The premises are held of the King for military service.
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Ah! This is fantastic, thanks Bookbox.
I had one source which said Ninian died in c1622 and another c1635. I was thinking this said that he had died recently (i.e. c1635), but your translation implies the 1622 date, which fits better!
I’ve got another one which I’ll try to translate myself based on what you’ve written. I’ll probably be back for help shortly!
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I had one source which said Ninian died in c1622 and another c1635. I was thinking this said that he had died recently (i.e. c1635), but your translation implies the 1622 date, which fits better!
The implication is that Nynyon died 14 years after receiving the premises from the Earl, but the date of that transfer isn’t shown here.
I’ve got another one which I’ll try to translate myself based on what you’ve written.
In that case, it might help you to have the Latin too, with the endings extended as best I can ...
Ib(idem) eod(em) die.
Comes Antrym seis(itus) fuit, ut de feod(o), de vil(la) & ter(ra) de Ballintoy
120 acr(as), & Ballylagh 120 acr(as); &, sic inde seis(itus), alienavit p(re)miss(a)
cuida(m) Nynyon Stewart de Ballintoy, & hered(ibus) suis, imp(er)pet(uum). – p(re)d(ictus)
Nynyon Stewart obiit 14 ann(is) elaps(is). – Archibald(us) Stewart, ejus fil(ius)
& her(es), tunc fuit plen(e) etat(is). p(re)miss(a) tenent(ur) de R(eg)e p(er) s(er)vic(ium) mil(itare)
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Thanks, that helped. Ok, here’s my attempt and attached is the snippet.
In that place on the same day
Humphrid Galbraith & Rob. Galbraith were seised as of fee of the quarter land of Corkagh, quarter of Lebindish, quarter of Lisglamerty, quarter of Ruskey, quarter of Gartmore, & town and land of Carrickballydowy alias Carrickballyduffe, countaining 10 balliboes, ?...? in barony of Raphoe & county Donegall, & containing, per estimation, 700 acres land. --- and so seised ?...? ?...? date 1 May 1654, ?...........? heirs ?...? John Calhowne junior, ?...? & baronet, his heirs and assigns, forever --- The premises are held of the King for ?.....?
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The first bit seems fine ...
Humphrey Galbraith & Robert Galbraith ... 10 balliboes, lying in the Barony of Raphoe ...
Then (from Sic inde ...)
Being then thus seised, by means of a deed bearing date 1 May 1654 they granted all the aforesaid lands, tenements and hereditaments with their appurtenances unto John Calhowne the younger, knight and baronet ... the premises are held of the King for an annual rent.
ADDED - sorry, it should be they granted (now corrected above)
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Ok, brilliant. Thanks very much for the help!
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Antrim branch of the Clan Donald! ;D
Skoosh.
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you then have this...
Ninian Stewart, Laird of Ballentoy Castle was born circa 1582 at Ballintoy Castle, Cairn, Antrim, Ireland.1 He married Grissel Stewart, daughter of Sir James Stewart, Sheriff of Bute and Jean Blair, circa 1613 at Isle of Bute, Argyll, Scotland.1 Ninian Stewart, Laird of Ballentoy Castle died in 1669 at Cairn, Antrim, Ireland.
https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p5931.htm#i178100
which as you see goes to Poyntz same as posted on other thread (attached again here) so can compare what is on above Link with names/dates on attachment to check how accurate they are, or not...
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George Stewart's Will... brother of John of Red Bay
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSN1-FF2R?i=403&cat=185720
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In that place on the same day
The Earl of Antrim was seised as of fee of the town and land of Ballintoy 120 acres, and of Ballylagh 120 acres, and, then being thus seised, he transferred the premises to a certain Nynyon Stewart of Ballintoy and to his heirs, for ever. The aforesaid Nynyon Stewart died 14 years later. Archibald Stewart, his son and heir, was then of full age. The premises are held of the King for military service.
Possibly the Capt. Stewart who fled to Alltyrodin, Llandyssil ??
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Antrim branch of the Clan Donald! ;D
Skoosh.
As in the Earls of Antrim? Yes, I'm a fan of Sorley Boy MacDonnell. What a legend.
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Hi Hallmark,
I’m not actually sure who Capt. Charles Stewart (d. 1774) was, or which branch of Stewarts he came from. As stated in the book extract, his wife Rose Hall was the daughter of Christian Poyntz. The other heiress was Christian’s sister Sarah who married another Charles Stewart (d. c1703) – he was of Ballintoy and a son (I think) of the Archibald Stewart mentioned in the Inquisitions.
The Stewarts page of the website “our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors” seems to be almost entirely based on members trees on Ancestry. Some details look ok, some don’t fit.
Where did you get the family tree sketch you posted (1st post of the 2nd page)? It looks like it is based on the version of the Stewart pedigree recorded in the Dobbs Report.
Thanks for the link to George Stewart of Red Bay’s will. I don’t think I have come across this before. I will transcribe tomorrow evening.
Who is the Capt. Stewart who fled to Alltyrodin, Llandyssil?
Gilby
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Hi Hallmark,
I’m not actually sure who Capt. Charles Stewart (d. 1774) was, or which branch of Stewarts he came from. As stated in the book extract, his wife Rose Hall was the daughter of Christian Poyntz. The other heiress was Christian’s sister Sarah who married another Charles Stewart (d. c1703) – he was of Ballintoy and a son (I think) of the Archibald Stewart mentioned in the Inquisitions.
The Stewarts page of the website “our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors” seems to be almost entirely based on members trees on Ancestry. Some details look ok, some don’t fit.
Where did you get the family tree sketch you posted (1st post of the 2nd page)? It looks like it is based on the version of the Stewart pedigree recorded in the Dobbs Report.
Thanks for the link to George Stewart of Red Bay’s will. I don’t think I have come across this before. I will transcribe tomorrow evening.
Who is the Capt. Stewart who fled to Alltyrodin, Llandyssil?
Gilby
No!!! Dobb's Report is compiled from Pedigrees he found!!
It looks like the Dobbs Report is based on the version of the Stewart pedigree which Betham had compiled and which were listed elsewhere and by McAnlis!!
Dobbs has over 3500 names in his report, where do people think he got them from??
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Stewart Pedigrees looked at by Dobbs
Aghnaclog, Ardpatrick, Aughinloo, Bailieboro, Ballinlough, Balymena, Ballinrowan, Ballintroy, Ballelan, Belfast, Callan, Castle Burke, Clonee, Coleraine, Coolskea, Corcreagh, Dublin, Derry, Dromgarth, Hornhead, Londonderry.........and 30 other places
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Hi Hallmark,
I’m not actually sure who Capt. Charles Stewart (d. 1774) was, or which branch of Stewarts he came from. As stated in the book extract, his wife Rose Hall was the daughter of Christian Poyntz. The other heiress was Christian’s sister Sarah who married another Charles Stewart (d. c1703) – he was of Ballintoy and a son (I think) of the Archibald Stewart mentioned in the Inquisitions.
The Stewarts page of the website “our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors” seems to be almost entirely based on members trees on Ancestry. Some details look ok, some don’t fit.
Where did you get the family tree sketch you posted (1st post of the 2nd page)? It looks like it is based on the version of the Stewart pedigree recorded in the Dobbs Report.
Thanks for the link to George Stewart of Red Bay’s will. I don’t think I have come across this before. I will transcribe tomorrow evening.
Who is the Capt. Stewart who fled to Alltyrodin, Llandyssil?
Gilby
Charles died in Spain....did anyone get his Will?
Ninian Stewart, Laird of Ballentoy Castle was born circa 1582 at Ballintoy Castle, Cairn, Antrim, Ireland.1 He married Grissel Stewart, daughter of Sir James Stewart, Sheriff of Bute and Jean Blair, circa 1613 at Isle of Bute, Argyll, Scotland......so are their records at Bute? On the Bute Pedigree??
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Hi Hallmark,
I’m not actually sure who Capt. Charles Stewart (d. 1774) was, or which branch of Stewarts he came from. As stated in the book extract, his wife Rose Hall was the daughter of Christian Poyntz. The other heiress was Christian’s sister Sarah who married another Charles Stewart (d. c1703) – he was of Ballintoy and a son (I think) of the Archibald Stewart mentioned in the Inquisitions.
Gilby
...and Roger Hall married Christian Poyntz, sold to Archie
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Roger Hall selling
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH3-M3TV-2?i=258&cat=185720
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Ninian: Denization was 18 Jan 1611,,,,
.son of James S of Bute.
Siblings: David
Jane (married Alex Magee)
Christiann (married Brice Dunlop)
Children:
1 Arch (married Martha Dobbin) children a dau married George Vesey, Hollymount, a dau married Richard DOBBS, Rev Archibald S md dau of John Vesey, Jane S, and Alex S that married Jamaica Ann S
2 Ninian (married Jane McCullogh) 12 children
3 Catherine (married John Steward of Red Bay)
_________________
Alex S that married Jamaica Ann S (probably on the Stewart of Jamaica pedigree that Dobbs looked at!) had
Alec, md Cathann Hill children Jane, Sophia
Ann, md Conway Richard Dobbs, children Alex, Richard, Randall (in Ireland or Jamaica?)
Rose md Edward Brice, son Ed
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Denization
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Hi Hallmark,
Who is the Capt. Stewart who fled to Alltyrodin, Llandyssil?
Gilby
Possibly connected with
Names of ye traitors in ye Castle of Dublin at ye first rebellion, Oct. 26, 1641.
Collection: Stewart Mss.
Format: Manuscript
Published: 1885
NLI ref... MS_UR_049592
Papers of Capt. Stewart of Alltyrodin, Llandyssil, including papers of the Moore family, containing a number of items of Irish interest, 1641-1739. (Hist. Mss. Comm. Rep. 10, App. 4, 1885). Some of the papers are now in Liverpool Public Library, some in Liverpool University and some were sold.
Capt Poyntz Stewart married Magdalene Gayer...her mother was Agnes Echlin who married Rev Echlin son of Sir Henry Echlin whose wives were Moores. 1st wife Jane Moore sister of Earl of Drogheda, 2nd wife Mary dau of Brabazon Moore, she was g/daughter of Charles 2nd Viscount Drogheda..
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Hi Hallmark,
Who is the Capt. Stewart who fled to Alltyrodin, Llandyssil?
Gilby
This is the little damp Welsh cottage he had to try to survive in..owned by John Lloyd, who died unmarried and devised the estates to a female cousin, Anne Stewart,
https://houseandheritage.org/2018/07/01/alltyrodyn/
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The mansion was later bought by Captain James Stewart (1830-1908), JP, DL, the second son of Mr Alexander Stewart, of Woodford Hall, Essex.
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I'll leave it at that...it is gone too ridiculous!!
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813627.msg6925484#msg6925484
Best of Luck!!
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No!!! Dobb's Report is compiled from Pedigrees he found!!
It looks like the Dobbs Report is based on the version of the Stewart pedigree which Betham had compiled and which were listed elsewhere and by McAnlis!!
Dobbs has over 3500 names in his report, where do people think he got them from??
Is the snippet of a family tree you sent from Betham? Could you post a link or point me in the right direction as I'm struggling to find it?
Also, who is McAnlis? ???
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Stewart Pedigrees looked at by Dobbs
Aghnaclog, Ardpatrick, Aughinloo, Bailieboro, Ballinlough, Balymena, Ballinrowan, Ballintroy, Ballelan, Belfast, Callan, Castle Burke, Clonee, Coleraine, Coolskea, Corcreagh, Dublin, Derry, Dromgarth, Hornhead, Londonderry.........and 30 other places
Where did you get this list from? Do you know if any of Dobbs's original notes/extracts survive?
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Stewart Pedigrees looked at by Dobbs
Aghnaclog, Ardpatrick, Aughinloo, Bailieboro, Ballinlough, Balymena, Ballinrowan, Ballintroy, Ballelan, Belfast, Callan, Castle Burke, Clonee, Coleraine, Coolskea, Corcreagh, Dublin, Derry, Dromgarth, Hornhead, Londonderry.........and 30 other places
Where did you get this list from? Do you know if any of Dobbs's original notes/extracts survive?
Wasn't the Court Case in London? Normally all Documents are lodged in Court, even the Pedigres of those who put in a claim and were rejected.....
From memory, 17,347 names claimed and only about 3000 could prove direct lineage!
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Ooh, I didn't know that. Cheers.
I think the 3000-odd people were the ones who could prove their connection and who were considered suitably poor.
p.s. I posted a question on the previous page too, just in case you missed it :P
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It is only from memory I think London!
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They were certainly connected to the Stewart-Moores!
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Hi Hallmark,
I’m not actually sure who Capt. Charles Stewart (d. 1774) was, or which branch of Stewarts he came from. As stated in the book extract, his wife Rose Hall was the daughter of Christian Poyntz.
Gilby
It was posted on other thread where he was from!
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1902-2000 [Henry Francis Montgomery Stuart; originally Henry Stuart, afterwards Francis Stuart]; b. Townsville, Australia, of Ulster parents, being the son of Henry Stuart, of Ballyhivistock House, br. Derrykeighan, Co. Antrim, one of two brothers who went to Australia in 1874 (James and Henry, reputedly with £50 each), and Lily Montgomery of Benvardin House nr. Ballybogey.......
http://www.ricorso.net/rx/az-data/authors/s/Stuart_F/life.htm
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No!!! Dobb's Report is compiled from Pedigrees he found!!
It looks like the Dobbs Report is based on the version of the Stewart pedigree which Betham had compiled and which were listed elsewhere and by McAnlis!!
Dobbs has over 3500 names in his report, where do people think he got them from??
Is the snippet of a family tree you sent from Betham? Could you post a link or point me in the right direction as I'm struggling to find it?
Also, who is McAnlis? ???
Sorry Hallmark, I meant this post. I'm trying to work out where you got the tree from in post #9.
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Introduction
History of the Office of the Chief Herald
Heraldry In Ireland 1943-2018
Applying for a Grant of Arms
Collections
Catalogues & Databases
Links
Catalogues and Databases
The Genealogical Office Manuscript Collection (GO MS) and Genealogical Office Library Collection are available to researchers holding a valid NLI Reader's Ticket in the Manuscripts Reading Room (2-3 Kildare St.). See Readers' Tickets and Accessing Material for more information.
GO Library
Monographs and other printed works within the Genealogical Office Library Collection can be searched in the Main Catalogue.
GO Manuscript Collection
A large number of Genealogical Office manuscripts are catalogued in Sources and the Main Catalogue. A number of these have been digitised and are available to view online.
MaAnlis - The Consolidated Index to the Records of the Genealogical Office
This four-volume index covers a significant part of the GO Manuscript Collection including the Funeral Entries, the Grants and Confirmations of Arms, O'Ferrall's Linea Antiqua, Lords Entries, Ecclesiastical Visitations, Anglo-Irish Pedigrees, Betham's Will Abstracts and Sketch Pedigrees, and a number of other miscellaneous manuscripts and pedigrees.
A to C
https://www.nli.ie/GetAttachment.aspx?id=0eb18a4f-24a0-4fb4-abaf-f21ec94c7967
D to H
https://www.nli.ie/GetAttachment.aspx?id=8d73722b-4021-4678-8863-09f2d3e0a71c
I to O
https://www.nli.ie/GetAttachment.aspx?id=5c942660-f59d-4888-81d0-34aa66fd607e
P to Z
https://www.nli.ie/GetAttachment.aspx?id=5eefd142-7e0d-4400-9ff7-f80b7d5d54b2
Dobbs would have used many to check Lineages.....they are not compiled by Dobbs or anything to do with Dobbs!!
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The Hutchinson Bequest had to go through Parliament in London... What Year??
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If he did them before Betham he would have read Will after Will after Will... so he might have given his stuff to Betham!!
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Where did you get the family tree sketch you posted (1st post of the 2nd page)? It looks like it is based on the version of the Stewart pedigree recorded in the Dobbs Report.
No!!! Dobb's Report is compiled from Pedigrees he found!!
It looks like the Dobbs Report is based on the version of the Stewart pedigree which Betham had compiled and which were listed elsewhere and by McAnlis!!
Dobbs has over 3500 names in his report, where do people think he got them from??
I’m sorry if I’m being a bit slow here, but I’m still not clear where you got the sketch tree from…? You mentioned the GO collections, but there are about 100 books online for it (NLI), and I don’t know which one you were looking at.
I still think the sketch tree is drawn by someone making notes on the Dobbs’ Report. The handwriting looks like Betham’s to me.
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The Hutchinson Bequest had to go through Parliament in London... What Year??
It is possible that Dobbs hired Betham to do the research for Court Case!!
Lawyers etc don't run around even today researching Who is Who if they are trying to find descendants of people named in a Will that he is trying to probate!!
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Hutchinson died in 1740. The Dobbs report was done in the 1790s. Betham didn’t come to Ireland till about 1805.
Francis Dobbs was married to one of the Stewarts, so that probably helped him. A lot of the research seems to have been done by interviewing people about their families.
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Must have been hectic, relatives to the 5th degree qualified!
It went on so long that is had to go to Parliament to try to get it changed so that it could be distributed and be dealt with.