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Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: louis665 on Sunday 05 April 20 18:39 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I am looking for help on this strange coat of arms, I have never seen such arm with number on it! But it is from a antique tapestry
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Is there any name or place associated with this?
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Sorry but no name associated with it
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You may like to consider contacting the Heraldry Society.
Please address offers, enquiries and comments to the Image Librarian at: archive@theheraldrysociety.com
Or via their contact page.
https://www.theheraldrysociety.com/contact/
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The arms include the colour green - very rare in English heraldry!
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Could that be a Bishop's Mitre above the shield?
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That is a really good guess！
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These look like family crests rather than Coats of Arms.
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I think the arms on the left as you look at it are those of someone belonged to the Bek / de Beke / Beake / Becke family - there are many variations on the name.
This family produced several Bishops - I agree it is definitely a Bishop's mitre above. I am struggling to make out the two things on the right of these arms (the left hand side) - they could be annulets? If so Papworth's Ordinary has nothing about them.
On the right (the arms with the green background) I'm not sure what the black splodge is ... so haven't got far looking it up yet!
The little hand in the corner is a "hand of Ulster" and denotes the bearer was a Baronet.
The puzzling thing is a Bishop would usually impale (to put arms side by side in one shield) his arms with those of his Diocese. So, although I have no evidence to support my theory I think it is possible the arms shown are those borne by the people being commemorated but there has been some artistic licence. (Eg by adding the date and by showing the bearer was a Bishop, but leaving out the arms of his Diocese. Maybe even adding things like the two "annulets".)
Liz
PS They are definitely arms - the crest is the bit that sits on top of the shield.
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I agree with Liz - definitely Coats-of-Arms ;D
From The College of Arms (https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/resources/faqs)
Q. What is a crest?
A. It is a popular misconception that the word 'crest' describes a whole coat of arms or any heraldic device. It does not. A crest is a specific part of a full achievement of arms: the three-dimensional object placed on top of the helm.
Q. Do coats of arms belong to surnames?
A. No. There is no such thing as a 'coat of arms for a surname'. Many people of the same surname will often be entitled to completely different coats of arms, and many of that surname will be entitled to no coat of arms. Coats of arms belong to individuals. For any person to have a right to a coat of arms they must either have had it granted to them or be descended in the legitimate male line from a person to whom arms were granted or confirmed in the past.
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Moderator comment: relevant posts from duplicate thread merged with this one
louis665 - I am sorry my efforts were not 'relevant' enough!
Liz :)
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Thank you, Liz. To combine the left cross moline and Ulster hand would make some new discovery? The right part might as you metioned be related to Diocese. In 1570 Regnans in Excelsis was issued, might some event such as new Diocese in that year?
I think the arms on the left as you look at it are those of someone belonged to the Bek / de Beke / Beake / Becke family - there are many variations on the name.
This family produced several Bishops - I agree it is definitely a Bishop's mitre above. I am struggling to make out the two things on the right of these arms (the left hand side) - they could be annulets? If so Papworth's Ordinary has nothing about them.
On the right (the arms with the green background) I'm not sure what the black splodge is ... so haven't got far looking it up yet!
The little hand in the corner is a "hand of Ulster" and denotes the bearer was a Baronet.
The puzzling thing is a Bishop would usually impale (to put arms side by side in one shield) his arms with those of his Diocese. So, although I have no evidence to support my theory I think it is possible the arms shown are those borne by the people being commemorated but there has been some artistic licence. (Eg by adding the date and by showing the bearer was a Bishop, but leaving out the arms of his Diocese. Maybe even adding things like the two "annulets".)
Liz
PS They are definitely arms - the crest is the bit that sits on top of the shield.
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Possibly from Sussex, any help?
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Is it possible to see the whole tapestry please, to see the layout of the rest of it?
There are some very famous table carpets dating from the 16th and 17th centuries which are decorated with coats of arms against a floral backdrop. They were often made in Flanders.
Any particular reason that you think Sussex? I know of one connected to a family of Sussex origin and it is now in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York.
Nell
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I should point out that the Badge of Ulster is a red hand.
The badge of baronetage, namely a sinister hand erect, open, and couped at the wrist gules(being the arms assigned to the ancient Kings of Ulster), was granted in 1612.
Gules = red.
Quoted from "A Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry", 1894, James Parker.
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I think Liz also pointed that out earlier in the week. ;)
As far as I can ascertain, this additional badge on a canton was permitted to be displayed on arms from 1835. Is that right? Does this mean that the tapestry is perhaps 19th century in origin?
Nell
Added: sorry - misread the paragraph in my heraldry book :-[
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I did ... but I completely didn’t notice that this little hand is in fact Sable (black) or perhaps there is some dodgy colouring going on? ;)
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I agree, Liz.
Some very dodgy colouring on this tapestry ;D
Apart from the "Red Hand of Ulster" being black, there is also the fact that green isn't a common colour in British Heraldry?
And a year number (or just a number) is something I can't find any mention of, anywhere?
Maybe just artistic licence? ;D