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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Andrew Tarr on Friday 10 April 20 17:44 BST (UK)
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I can make no sense of the birthplace of Thomas Anderson, b.1818, on the 1861 census. The previous census shows it as St. Johnley, meaning St.John Lee, a defunct parish just across the Tyne from Hexham. Twenty years later it becomes Brunton, a hamlet a few miles north, across the river from Chollerford. But in between it appears to be Sutold. I have scoured the old 25-inch map for anything resembling this word - what can the enumerator have meant ? (the transcriber didn't attempt anything either) >:(
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My suggestion would be Sandhoe which is 3 miles from St John Lee church or 6 miles from Brunton (Brunton Turret). I have seen worse interpretations of place names.
There use to be a link on here back a few years to a site with all place names in Northumberland on it including a lot of very scarce ones. If you can find that it might have some suggestions
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David, did you mean the Northumberland Farm Index? (I believe this was compiled from names in the 1861 census) https://northumberlandarchives.com/docs/Northumberland%20Farm%20Index%201860.pdf
Andrew, I can't help at the moment with the place name (and I live pretty close by the area you mention) but I think the hard-working Vicar of St John Lee would be very upset to see his parish described as 'defunct'!
https://www.sjlwn.org/
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Yes Jen, that's what I meant. Thank you for providing the link.
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Andrew, I can't help at the moment with the place name (and I live pretty close by the area you mention) but I think the hard-working Vicar of St John Lee would be very upset to see his parish described as 'defunct'!
My apologies if I have offended any vicars - my remark was based on the fact that the Bart's map seems to be the only one showing a (large) St.John Lee parish - all the OS versions I have studied show Acomb, Wall or Fallowfield. Only the isolated church has a name.
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Do you have a Thomas on any other censuses?
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Andrew, I can't help at the moment with the place name (and I live pretty close by the area you mention) but I think the hard-working Vicar of St John Lee would be very upset to see his parish described as 'defunct'!
My apologies if I have offended any vicars - my remark was based on the fact that the Bart's map seems to be the only one showing a (large) St.John Lee parish - all the OS versions I have studied show Acomb, Wall or Fallowfield. Only the isolated church has a name.
I'm sure the very nice Vicar of St John Lee would have a good laugh and not be offended :)
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My apologies if I have offended any vicars - my remark was based on the fact that the Bart's map seems to be the only one showing a (large) St.John Lee parish - all the OS versions I have studied show Acomb, Wall or Fallowfield. Only the isolated church has a name.
If you are interested you can see a map of the parish at http://www.rootschat.com/links/01pbd/
Stan
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Do you have a Thomas on any other censuses?
Well, of course he is on the 1841, but that tells one nothing much. He died in 1875 so that is all we have. I'll check the St John Lee baptism record - can't remember whether it is online.
Thanks to JenB for the link to the interesting register of Northumberland farmsteads. I am not a northerner, but my wife has strong links to the Shotley and Muggleswick parishes, which can be a nuisance hopping back and forth between Durham and Nthmb. :(
To add - the connection between the Bolam pair and the Andersons appears to be that both wives had been Sarah Dawson from Alston, one born in 1769, the other in 1820, so the older one is the younger's aunt.
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Hi Andrew..
How about this one Thomas Anderson bp. 22 March 1818 father Wm. Anderson mother Barbara.
St John Lee Northumberland.
Tazzie
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How about this one Thomas Anderson bp. 22 March 1818 father Wm. Anderson mother Barbara.
St John Lee Northumberland.
Yes, correct, Tazzie - she was Barbara Purvis. I was hoping the baptism record might show an abode ?
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Hi. Found that on familysearch but just checked freereg but the date is not covered so no transcript.
Tazzie
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The other question is whether the abode recorded in 1851 still existed at the end of the century when the OS maps were resurveyed, or the farmstead list was compiled. Another peripheral member of my wife's tree was recorded at the fascinatingly-named Pinch-me-near near Bellingham, which can be found on those maps but not on later ones. Google Earth shows no trace of it today, it seems to have been ploughed under. Spring House in Muggleswick, birthplace of my wife's gt-grandmother, has also disappeared.
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I was hoping the baptism record might show an abode ?
The transcript shows Lower Brunton.
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I was hoping the baptism record might show an abode ?
The transcript shows Lower Brunton.
Many thanks for that, Bookbox - I still wonder what the 1851 message meant ???
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Could be St. Oswald. Church and farm about a mile from Low Brunton.
Alan.
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Could be St. Oswald. Church and farm about a mile from Low Brunton.
That sounds like the best idea yet, Alan, thanks. I'll look into it.
LATER - a very likely explanation, especially as it seems that small church was rebuilt less than a year before Thomas' baptism. :D I guess it would have performed baptisms but maybe not marriages?
The only slight snag is that this church is outside the St.John Lee parish ....
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The record clearly shows that he was baptised at St John Lee.
However it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that when he was young the family lived at St Oswalds (farm), he remembered living there and so put that on the census form, whereupon it was mangled by the enumerator.
Trivia moment - this is a really beautiful spot. The from the north side of the churchyard there is a wonderful view up the north Tyne valley.
https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1210270
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St Oswald was a Chapel of Ease in Wall Township in St John Lee Parish. Probably didn't do baptisms, just a place of worship for locals who couldn't travel easily to the Parish Church.
Hope this link works 1828 Whites Directory.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MbA3AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA609&lpg=PA609&dq=brunton+st+john+lee&source=bl&ots=fjmSpcgI4g&sig=ACfU3U0vQfXBq-kHBSCrwuTvDs-5UFcyWQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiOqZqD7-XoAhXxRxUIHeE7B8QQ6AEwAnoECBAQLw#v=onepage&q=brunton%20st%20john%20lee&f=false
Described as half a mile along the Military Road from Brunton. There was a Farm there as well.
Alan.
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https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=15&lat=55.02368&lon=-2.11017&layers=6&right=BingHyb
Low Brunton is top left, St Oswalds and the farm (Hill House, also known as St Oswalds Hill House) on the right just below centre.
The only slight snag is that this church is outside the St.John Lee parish ....
It isn't in St John Lee Parish now, but it was then. There has been subdivision since the time we're talking about :)
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It isn't in St John Lee Parish now, but it was then. There has been subdivision since the time we're talking about :)
Ah, I was hoping something like that might have happened - it seems problem solved; thanks to all contributors. I was wondering how the questions posed in the censuses may have varied - which parish were you born in?, where were you baptised?, where were you born? etc ....
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Just to complete the picture: Thomas Anderson is not exactly a rare name in Northumberland, but I suspect this shows him in 1841. Waterfalls is just off the A68, seven miles north of his birthplace in Low Brunton, and his description would tally with his later life, which he spent a similar distance south of Hexham.
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Ah, I was hoping something like that might have happened - it seems problem solved; thanks to all contributors. I was wondering how the questions posed in the censuses may have varied - which parish were you born in?, where were you baptised?, where were you born? etc ....
All the column to be filled in on the householder's schedule has is "Where Born".
The chief clerk of the GRO claimed that the birthplace tables were probably the most inaccurate of any of the census tables..... a great many people did not know in which county they were born. There was also a tendency to record the place of residence, or the earliest one which could be remembered, as the place of birth.
Stan
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Hi Andrew,
Replying months late. I came across your query through google while idly researching. Thomas and Sarah were my great, great grandparents. Great grandfather was their youngest some Robert Edward. Everything I know about him is on my Ancestry tree. An aunt saw this on Thomas and Sarah's 1846 marriage certificate: ""Thomas Anderson, farmer man, son of William, Husbandman, married Sarah Dawson of Shield Hall, daughter of John, Shoemaker. Witnesses: Matthew Ridley, Thomas Blackburn, Jane Blackburn and Jane Cook."
It looks like the Bolams (married Newcastle 1797) followed the Andersons from Shield Hall to Travellers' Rest in Slaley. They both died there in the mid 1850's. I think that Thomas Bolam was born at St John Lee in 1772. He may have know Thomas Anderson's parents William and Barbara.
Perhaps you have discovered this already. Let me now if you would like to exchange notes further.
Helen Anderson