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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Derbyshire Lookup Requests => Derbyshire => England => Derbyshire Completed Look ups => Topic started by: ValJJJ on Saturday 11 April 20 14:16 BST (UK)
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I wonder if someone please could shed light on William Wardman? All I have is his name and marriage place/year, but I have a lot more info on his wife.
He married a widow, Charlotte Ann Crook nee West, in 1902 in Derby. As this is the only reference I have to him, I have posted this in the Derbyshire board.
Charlotte Ann has been easy to trace throughout her life, as a child, born in E Farndon, Northamptonshire, sometimes given as Market Harborough, Leics, on 9 May 1868, her marriage in 1892 in Nottingham to George Crook (whose family details I also have), their two daughters Nora Winifred and Edith Ann(ie) and his early death in 1897 in Basford (well, the record fits - I haven't validated this).
I have her in the 1901 census at Bayston, Florence Rd, Aston, Sutton Coldfield, Warwickshire as a widow, a dressmaker, living with her widowed mother-in-law Ann Matthews (who had also remarried so previously Crook nee Warren), plus the two girls, plus a boarder. It is not clear whether Charlotte was visiting or lived at this address.
In 1911 she is at 9 Queen St, Derby with her brother-in-law Thomas Coulson, his wife/her sister Rosa May, Alfred Coulson (Thomas' father), Edith Annie Crook, 15, and barmaid Annie Dakin. Charlotte Wardman is shown as married, not a widow, in this census. This might be a mistake and she was a widow as I cannot William Wardman anywhere in the 1911 census - I've also searched for Hardman as it could have been mistranscribed. As I don't know his age or place of birth it is more difficult to identify him.
I have her addresses from electoral rolls - Edgbaston in 1922; 1927;1930 (different addresses each time) but only her name, no William Wardman. From 1938 I have her on electoral rolls for Evelyn Court, Cheltenham with her daughter Edith Bell. In the 1939 register she is at the same address but mistranscribed as Hardman. She is described as a widow. This is where I obtained her date of birth.
She died in Cheltenham on 2 Jan 1944, and probate granted to Lloyds Bank on 6 Mar 1944.
Nora Winifred most likely married an Alsop, and Edith Annie married a Mr Bell but I haven't delved far with their details.
My puzzle is William Wardman - has he been mistranscribed as Hardman, or Hardiman, or just not counted or not in the database on Ancestry? There is also another William/Charlotte Wardman couple who pop up in searches, but I think I've seen them on the 1939 register too, so the wrong couple.
I wonder if there was a newspaper announcement of William and Charlotte marrying, or a church record? I have searched Ancestry's Derbyshire parish records but not found them. Either I missed seeing them or names have been mistranscribed?
Hope someone can help.
Thanks.
Val
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FindMyPast has the transcription of the marriage as
William Wardman
Charlotte Ann Crook
1902
Derby Normanton Road Congregational Chapel
Can't find anything in the newspapers
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I think the only way to get more info about him is to buy a copy of the marriage cert. He may have been a mariner but the cert should hopefully give his age and his fathers name. It should also show whether he was a bachelor or widower
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Thanks Comberton - at least that gets me to their denomination!
And yes, CaroleW yoiu're right that the marriage cert is the only way to get further along with this. As they are not immediate ancestors I was hoping to find out more without buying any certificates. It's one of those loose ends that's been nagging away at me.
Val
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CaroleW - Derby isn't close to the sea so why did you think he may have been a mariner? Because of being missing in the 1911 census?
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I did say "may" have been a mariner. He may have been in an asylum?
Looking at entries with a similar birthyear to Charlotte and allowing that he may have been a "toy boy" doesn't throw up any possibilities which is why I wondered if he was a mariner.
It's a pity the GRO don't do pdf copies of marriage certs - at £7 it makes buying one a bit more attractive than £11
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Yes, he may well have been. Wonder what the custom was for second marriages regarding location. For first marriages it was nearly always in the bride's parish of birth (or was it just where all the family still lived?), but for the widowed participants I wonder if it was whatever was convenient, or the bride's current parish of residence, or the groom's.
I think if in an asylum, he would have popped up as initials WW as they didn't put the full name. Although as I don't have his age or any other info, the census search results wouldn't necessarily throw those up I suppose. I shall have to scroll down to the bitter end to see if there are any initials.
Thanks for the thoughts.
Val
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To be honest - the marriage cert is the only way forward. Somebody has posted incorrect info on the 1911 entry saying she married Matthew Wardman so I have just posted a correction
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Agree about the cert and the lack of pdf option for a marriage cert. Also I'm puzzled as to why the GRO have online birth and death index details but not marriages.
Which 1911 entry that you corrected are you referring to? One on Ancestry or FindMyPast or elsewhere?
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I made the correction on the Ancestry 1911 entry
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Could be a complete coincidence but Charlotte Wardman nee West's sister Rosa May married Thomas Coulson, whose father lived with them, and was a retired master mariner. Perhaps she met William Wardman, mariner, through these relatives? Fun to invent backstories for people!
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So William could have been a mariner
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Yes, anything is possible! I've found the father Alfred Coulson's mates and masters certificates and he was born in Yorkshire and went to sea from Whitby and Scarborough. I've yet to find out when he moved to Derby but presumably it was on retiring. I've found lots of other records for him - census, death, burial in Wilne, Derby (with his last address not with his family as in the 1901 and 1911 census, but in the Arboretum Hotel, Osmaston Rd, Derby - was this a hostel more than a hotel?).
I can't find him in 1871 or 1881, and not spotted any connection with William Wardman (yet...if any). Alfred's wife was from Derbyshire, and was with her parents in 1871 without Alfred, and with her widowed father in 1881, in Derby.
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Hi,
I have the info for 1902 marriage for Crook = Wardman
Normanton Road Congregational Church Derby
29th October 1902
William Wardman, age 32, Batchelor, Draper
75 Corporation Street, Birmingham
Father - William Wardman, Grocer
Charlotte Ann Crook, age 33, Widow,
“Fernleigh”, 6 London Street, Derby
Father - Thomas West, Farmer
In Presence of - Thomas Coulson, Rosa Coulson, Lily Jennings
For said Church - J. W. Hodges
Spendlove
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Think I may have tracked him down
1901 - in Handsworth, Staffs. draper's assistant
Walter Henry Bradley 41
Elizabeth Bradley 38
Dorothy Ethel Bradley 11
Gladys L Bradley 8
Wm Wardman 30 - boarder b Otley, West Yorks
Same chap in 1911 - note marital status
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWNL-MQ6
Trace him back and his father is called William, and is a grocer
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He dies in 1922 in Otley - probate to his sister from the 1911 census
It's unclear why he's back in Yorkshire
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Hi Mabel
Thanks for that info but until I take a visit to Matlock's archives to look at the marriage info (if they have chapel marriage info) or obtain the marriage certificate, I can't be certain this is the correct William Wardman. It's certainly a thought. Although would it be usual to give probate to your sister rather than your wife? Of course, he may have drawn up his will before marrying Charlotte and not changed it. And whoever has probate doesn't necessarily inherit.
He is of the right age, but there is a William Wardman CofE baptism in Otley, son of William Wardman, grocer, also taxes on a shop and house in Otley for this name, and a marriage in Yorks in 1895 to an Emily Harrison of Leeds. And some other Wardman marriages, incl WW in Yorkshire, where a William Wardman father is a waiter.
I can't find a William Wardman birth/baptism in the non-conformist records on FindMyPast - these records don't cover the period where he married Charlotte.
Too many William Wardmans!
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Hi Valjjj
Did you miss my post giving my transcript of the actual marriage register for Normanton Road Congregational Church? I give it again
I have the info for 1902 marriage for Crook = Wardman
Normanton Road Congregational Church Derby
29th October 1902
William Wardman, age 32, Batchelor, Draper
75 Corporation Street, Birmingham
Father - William Wardman, Grocer
Charlotte Ann Crook, age 33, Widow,
“Fernleigh”, 6 London Street, Derby
Father - Thomas West, Farmer
In Presence of - Thomas Coulson, Rosa Coulson, Lily Jennings
For said Church - J. W. Hodges
Spendlove
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Oops Spendlove, I just saw the last entry as been offline for a while, and did not scroll back up. A thousand apologies.
All this info is really useful and now I see why Mabel made the link with the Otley death of William Wardman.
Still wondering why his sister had probate, not his wife???
Thanks so much for solving this puzzle that's been nagging away in the background.
Val
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Thank again to all - so pleased you could find the info that's been eluding me.
Out of interest Spendlove, where did you find the details of the marriage to Charlotte please?
Thanks.
Val
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Hi,
The info was from a transcript I did years ago at Derbyshire Record Office.
Is this Charlotte Ann Wardman, born 1870 leaving England 1927 for Canada on Ancestry
in the UK and Ireland, Outward Passenger Lists, 1890-1960
Spendlove
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Good question! I hadn't seen that entry. Her sister emigrated to Canada and died there in 1936 so she could have visited her in 1927. Wonder how long she stayed? Thomas Coulson died in 1946.
He had remarried Elizabeth someone.
I have Charlotte Ann Wardman in 1922 on the electoral roll in 11 Duchess Rd, Edgbaston, then in 10 Rotton Park Rd, Edgbaston for 1927, 4a of the same road in 1930 with her daughter, then in 1938 electoral roll, at 11 Evelyn Court, Cheltenham, and at the same address in the 1939 register but mistranscribed as Hardman. Also probate in 1944 referring to her at this address.
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The 1927 entry gives her address as Moat Bank, near Lichfield and she was a manageress.
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Hi Comberton
I saw that address, which is an oddity. I looked at several passenger lists and documents related to her travelling to Canada and back again, and on her return journey her address is given as Rotten Park Rd, which is where I have her in electoral registers. I wonder if the Moat Bank address is an error or an address of a family member? I don't think Staffs electoral registers are online so I can't check that info at the moment. Another thing for the end-of-virus-lockdown to-do list.
Re William Wardman, I see he is on numerous electoral registers for Otley from 1903 onwards, living in Gay Lane (the address of his family given on his marriage cert, and on census entries) as a lodger sharing a sitting room, and having sole use of a bedroom, paying rent to his mother. I have to go through the search results more carefully now to see which years he was there. Also to check when his father William Wardman, grocer, died.
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William Wardman who married Emily HArrison was son of Thomas Wardman, carrier
I wonder if by 1911 there were marital issues - William goes back to Otley and prefers his sister to administer his estate than his wife
Willaim the father dies in 1903 - burial 17 Nov. Address 9 Gay Lane
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Thanks Mabel.
There is a William Wardman in Gay Lane, Otley most years after 1903 so that must be the draper son, not the grocer father.
1903 (might be father or son but only one WW shown), 1904 - at 7+9 Gay Lane
1905 ?
1906 - a WW at Ash Grove, Otley. But also there in 1907 so not the right WW.
1907,8,9,10,11, 12, 13 - at 7 Gay Lane. WW is a lodger sharing use of sitting room ,sole use of one bedroom, furnished, rent to Mrs S Wardman (i.e his mother Susannah) at 7 Gay Lane, Otley.
1918 and 1919- Susannah Wardman only at 7-9 Gay Lane Would WW been in the military during WW1? Or too old?
1920 - Susannah and William at 7-9 Gay Lane
1920 - Susannah at 6 South Parade, Otley - presumably the second half of the year
In 1922 (the year of WW's death) she was at 6 South Parade, Otley, which is the address given for WW at death, but he is not on the electoral roll for this address.
In 1925 Susannah Wardman died, address Ramsey Terrace.
Seems as if you are correct that Charlotte and William were no longer living under the same roof, but hard to tell when that happened.
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Hi,
Jusr to confirm are we searching for William Wardman, Draper, b. 1870 Otley son of William Wardman, Grocer, and Susannah? Father’s details as stated on Williams marriage in 1902.
1871 Census Otley F. William, Grocer, M. Susannah
1881 “. “
1891. “. St. Marylebone London
1901. “. Handsworth, Staffs
1911. “. Otley
In 1902 Derby marriage he gives his address as 75 Corporation St, Birmingham.
Do agree that there was some sort of problem with his marriage.
William Wardman Snr, died 1903 probate to Susannah Wardman £2126.15.6
William Wardman Jnr died 1922. Probate to Sarah Ellen Wardman £549 13. 11
Susannah Wardman died 1825 probate to Lilly Jennings, wife of George Jennings £268. 14 2
Note on same page as probate for Susannah is further Grant relating to probate of
William Wardman, died 1903 of Gay Lane, to Lily Jennings £3135.
Sarah Ellen Wardman died, 1945 probate to Elizabeth Wardman At Llandudno £280 13 7
Think Elizabeth W died Yorkshire 1946 probate Llandudno.
It would be interesting to get William W., Snr and Jnr., Wills to see if either mentions Charlotte. It looks as if WW Snr., will was not administered until 1925.
Spendlove
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Yes Spendlove my original query was regarding William Wardman the son, draper, born in Otley and marrying Charlotte Ann Crook nee West.
I had a look at a few probate listings yesterday and noticed that his father's will/probate was listed beneath his mother's, who died much later. I wondered what Grant meant.
We do seem to drifting off my original question, but it's all fascinating and adds background to the story. However, everyone has really helped by finding out so much, for which I'm grateful.
My original purpose for asking was that I am looking at all the close (ish) relatives of an Ann Crook to see if I can find who might have cared for her elusive son John Campbell born 1897 in London. I've posted questions on different sections of RootsChat to try and establish where his mother's relatives were and where he was or wasn't from 1902 onwards. The problem is that much could have happened between 1902 and 1911, which is the earliest I can view whole households. I can't find the boy's death, and the only likely entry in the 1911 census turned out to be a mistranscribed age, and the institution was just so unlikely that I couldn't see how it could be the right boy.
But the John Campbell quest is off-topic for this thread. I could post the references to the other threads if anyone is interested, but it's a red herring for this look-up request in this section!
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To return to a much earlier posting about Charlotte Wardman travelling to Canada and her Lichfield address, I found a record for her entry to Canada and it showed that this was the address of her sister, Mrs Griffin Walker. It also showed her return address would be Rotten Park Rd.
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Still haven't worked out which sister Mrs Griffin Walker was though. Another lockdown job later.