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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: KChase on Saturday 18 April 20 00:18 BST (UK)

Title: 6th dragoon
Post by: KChase on Saturday 18 April 20 00:18 BST (UK)
My great great grandfather, James Blake Linder was in the 6th in Ireland had his first child - Minnie - with Caroline is born in Caher.  I would like to find out about his military life - he states in a court in England that he was in the Carabineers - joined 1846 and was a farrier in G troop.  Can anyone help please?  With many thanks. Kelly.

Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: Girl Guide on Saturday 18 April 20 13:00 BST (UK)
Hello Kelly - Welcome to Rootschat  :D

Well there is a marriage for a James Blake Linder to an Anne Hill on 25 December 1851 at Derrygrath, Tipperary.  Father is Richard.  This information is from a transcription.

Is this your James?  You suggest that his wife is Caroline?
Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: Girl Guide on Saturday 18 April 20 13:07 BST (UK)
I have found a baptism for a James Blake Linder born 27 September 1823 and baptised on 9 May 1824 at Beccles in Suffolk.  Parents are Richard and Mary Ann Linder.  This was a non-conformist baptism.

Are you expecting John to be Irish or was it just that he joined an Irish company?
Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: Girl Guide on Saturday 18 April 20 13:09 BST (UK)
There is a death which appears to be the same man.

LINDER, JAMES  BLAKE     51 
GRO Reference: 1875  M Quarter in CHIPPING NORTON  Volume 03A  Page 600
Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: Girl Guide on Saturday 18 April 20 13:12 BST (UK)
Do you have a sub to Find My Past?  If so there are British Army Service Records for a James Linder of the 6th Dragoon Guards.  Cover 1865 to 1875. Pension year 1868, death 1875.
Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: KChase on Saturday 18 April 20 23:04 BST (UK)
Hi there.   Thankyou so much for your quick reply!   This is my first use of this forum so I am very grateful.    The records you have found are indeed my man - he married Elizabeth Ives in England in 1847 just after he had joined the 6ths as a farrier.   Fathered a daughter and off to army life he went, to Ireland.   While there in 1851, on Christmas Day he married (again!) Ann Hill but was charged with bigamy on Feb 17th, given a 12 month sentence, sent to Clonmel, bailed on May 30th at which point, back to 6ths he went.  He then went back to England and fathered a son with is first wife and left again with the army.  He disappears from their lives forever at this point.   Then somewhere in there, he meets Caroline, my 2 x gt grandmother - no marriage record is to be found - and they go on to have four children altogeher but the first dies a few days old.   She goes with him to Ireland and the 6ths as their next child is born there.  I have found out that he must be good at his job as he is finally Farrier Major and yesterday, found the discharge papers in 1868. 
What happened to his wife no 2 and marriage?  Did they annul the marriage automatically or did they have to get divorced on paper and if so, where would I find it?   I can't find her anywhere after that.   I tried searching her father, Matthew but not much on him - or perhaps I just don't have enough info on them to generate a decent search.
As for his army life - I would like to understand more of that.   He seemed a decent enough fellow - just didn't have a good start at the wife picking bit.  Have an awesome day!
Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: KChase on Saturday 18 April 20 23:10 BST (UK)
Sorry you asked about subscriptions to Find my Past - I have a basic one but am super frustrated as it shows there is a record but I can't actually see it.   I tried looking at his world wide army 1851  and 1861 listing but although its there, can't see it.   I also tried to look up Irish prison records but have the same issue.  I have a full membership with ancestry but can't quite stretch to one with FindMyPast right now. 
Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: Girl Guide on Sunday 19 April 20 08:35 BST (UK)
Tell  me what you would like to know from the Find My Past records and I'll have a look as I have a sub.

Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: guest189040 on Sunday 19 April 20 08:44 BST (UK)
It is not just the 6th but a huge number of Regiments are online with their details.

I found out so much of information about my GGGrandfather who was in the 36th

The National Army Museum website is a good first stop.

This is the link to the Dragoons

https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/6th-dragoon-guards-carabiniers
Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: Girl Guide on Sunday 19 April 20 09:43 BST (UK)
Below is the info from the British Army Service Record.  There is no image with this one.

James Linder, Rate 2/-, Date 14th July 1868, number 935,
 
District Ipswich,

1st April 1871 Coventry,

1873 Coventry,

1875 died 7th March

British Army Worldwide Index 1851 and 1861 - no image for these

1851 - James Linder - Service No. 935

Rank - Private

Regiment - 6Th Regiment Of Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers)

Period - 01/01/1851-31/03/1851

Location - Cahir, Ireland

Nat. Arc. Ref. - WO 12/374

For the 1861 Index the difference is that he is now a Farrier Major and regiment stationed on board ship from Meerut East Indies

Nat. Arc. Ref. - WO12 / 382

Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: Girl Guide on Sunday 19 April 20 09:57 BST (UK)
I think you will not find anything in relation to his second marriage as it was a bigamous marriage and therefore annulled. It would be interesting to see an image of that 1851 marriage but there only appears to be a transcription available.  No doubt James claimed he was a bachelor when he wasn't!

I would imagine that no marriage will be found for Caroline and James as his legitimate wife Elizabeth was probably still alive then.  As James has already been in prison for bigamy he was unlikely to wish to do that again.

Have you checked the census records to see if you can find Elizabeth?
Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: Girl Guide on Sunday 19 April 20 10:02 BST (UK)
I see Elizabeth is in the 1851 census residing at Loddon and Clavering Union House, Heckingham, Loddon, Norfolk with her daughter Maria

Registration district   Loddon
Archive reference   HO107
Piece number   1820
Folio   224
Page   17
Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: Girl Guide on Sunday 19 April 20 10:07 BST (UK)
Elizabeth is still claiming to be married in the 1861 census and now has a son. Living at Quares Lane, St Marys Bungay, Wangford, Suffolk


Registration district   Wangford
Enumeration district   10 C
Archive reference   RG09
Piece number   1184
Folio   90
Page   14

Son's birth registration

LINDER, CHARLES       IVES 
GRO Reference: 1851  J Quarter in LODDON AND CLAVERING  Volume 13  Page 232
Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 19 April 20 10:28 BST (UK)
Just to add: the record shows that he spent 10 months in the Crimea and Turkey, and 4 years 8 months in the East Indies. He appears on the Crimea medal roll.
Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: KChase on Monday 20 April 20 01:35 BST (UK)
G'day Girl Guide.    Thanks heaps -

When James Linder married Anne Hill he was committing bigamy - she is wife no. 2.   Wife no.1 is in England (Elizabeth Ives).   He's charged and sentenced to 12 months at Clonmel, in March 1852 but is bailed end May 1852. 

Is there any information with regards to the case against him in newspapers or records and the outcome?  Irish Prison records I think are on FindMyPast.

With many thanks
Kelly
Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: KChase on Monday 20 April 20 01:40 BST (UK)
G'day ShaunJ

Thank you!  I knew he'd gone to Crimea - and I think to Turkey afterwards as he stayed with the 6ths until discharge in 1868 - I need to do some reading and map out exactly where the regt was from year to year.

Do you know anything about what his 'job' would be?   I'm guessing as Farrier Major he is the horsey dude in charge of the other horsey dudes but did they go to the front line?   Did they actively fight?   The fact he went to Crimea - what a nightmare scenario - and then on to Turkey etc after - I hope he was more the back line dude for his sake...!

Thanks so much - hope you have a great day.   We are still in full lock down so loads of time to do this!
Kelly
Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 20 April 20 08:59 BST (UK)
From the Dublin Evening Packet of 9 March 1852:
Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: Girl Guide on Monday 20 April 20 09:04 BST (UK)
Description of farrier from old occupations

Farrier   1) A blacksmith who shoes horses 2) Horse Doctor 3) Cavalry NCO responsible for horses
Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: KChase on Wednesday 29 April 20 10:20 BST (UK)
G'day - Thank you both so very much!  Fancy having two wives.... even if you didn't really fancy the first one anymore.  It's interesting that the courtroom is packed with soldiers - it makes me think that despite the misdemeanor, he was well liked in the regiment.    Either that or they were just there to be nosey... either way I am glad he made the papers - it gives an insight to his life.

Thank you very much for looking it up for me.   The dangerous thing with family research is the more you know the more you want to know!  Just by way of winding his story up - he had a son by his third wife who emigrated to South Africa  before the Boer War in which he faught for the British, married a Boer Widow,  faught in WW2 for the Government of the day in the Natal Mounteds and Utrecht Commando and lived the rest of his life there - my great grandad. So the love of horses carried through. 

Once again - thank you all very much.  Have a great week and take care!
Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: KChase on Wednesday 29 April 20 10:24 BST (UK)
Dear Girl Guide

Just reading back through the notes - are you able to copy me the records on Find My Past of James Blake Linder Military records?   I don't have a subscription that will allow me to look at it and would be very grateful.

With many thanks
Kelly
Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: KChase on Wednesday 29 April 20 10:43 BST (UK)
And I again, was reading through these pages - have not been able to come back to this for a few days - too much going on with the farm.   But - here I am.....

So Elizabeth Ives - She does have a daughter Maria and they did have banns read for three weeks in church prior to the marriage but the priest that married them says in court at the bigamy case, that JBL married her and the next day left - I think to join his regiment and that he had never been back which  I am thinking.... was the child his in the first place?   And then her second child, Charles, who she names in church documents as being the child of JBL, a soldier.   Charles is born I think about 4 years after the marriage and if James had never been back.....  I suspect he is not the father.

Its all so intriguing.   With wife no. 3 - she called herself his wife in census docs and takes his surname etc etc, they had three children - two girls and a boy.    The first girl is born in Ireland in Cahir where Caroline has followed him as he is stationed there permanently. 

The third child, Tweed, is born only two years before James dies.   In the 1871 census James is working at The Kennels for the Heythrop Hunt and Caroline is in a cottage up the road when the census is taken. 

They're both buried in Chipping Norton.    James at St Mary's and Caroline at the 'new' cemetery.   Neither have gravestones.

Wish I could have known them - I bet they had a story or two to tell!
Title: Re: 6th dragoon
Post by: BronnieH on Saturday 27 March 21 12:27 GMT (UK)
Hi Kelly,

Elizabeth Ives is my 4x gt grandmother and Charles James Linder is my 3x gt grandfather.

Nice to meet you  :)

The question I have from the newspaper article was "who was the married man Elizabeth was being seen with mentioned by the clergyman"? Was he Charles' father? Unless James made a quick dash back to Suffolk I'm thinking it may not have been him.

One other question we have is "Is Maria even James's daughter"? Is this why James left so quickly? We're a cynical bunch :)

To take this further, DNA has not matched us with any "Linder" people but, interestingly enough, one of the cousins has quite a few matches with people whom have the surname "Low".

In the 1861 census, Elizabeth is living with children Maria and Charles and a third person, James Low...   

I'm curious as to if you have DNA as it would be interesting to compare.

Regards
Bronnie