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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: Fordyce on Saturday 18 April 20 12:25 BST (UK)
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I'm researching James CLARK in Arradoul in the 1720/30s, wife Isobel RITCHIE (they married before records began but I reckon it was abt 1706). The Rathven Kirk Sessions record him as a Kirk Elder and a heritor, so he was a man of some standing (although he also borrowed money from the Kirk Session in 1720 and didn't pay his share of the Poor money in 1732).
Isobel RITCHIE was buried 9 Mar 1731: she is recorded has "Isobel RITCHIE spouse to James CLARK in Stonyfold". Other records show that Stonyfold, Rathven did exist but where? Was it part and parcel of the Arradoul settlement?
On 20 Dec 1732 the OPR records the baptism of a natural child, naming the parents as "James CLARK & Jean WATSON in Arradoul". Bishop's People of Rathven references this event but only inasmuch that in 1732, Jean WATSON "in the Rodin" was with child, the father being James CLARK "in the Rodin". This event looks as though it came from Kirk Session records, but it is not from the Rathven Kirk Session as far as I can tell. I cannot find any other reference to "the Rodin" - can anyone throw any light on where this place might be? Might "the Rodin" be a colloquial or local version of "Arradoul"?
I'm trying to fathom the identity of the James CLARK in Arradoul (not a 'papist') who married Margaret GREEN ('papist') 13 Aug 1734 and had family. The context is my own 5xgtgdfather James CLARK whose parentage gets more indeterminate the more I research. He married Elspet ANDREW 11 Jun 1751 when he was living at Mains of Buckie, Rathven.
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Hi,
It appears to be in the Buckie Braes area. If you change spelling to Rodden and search that, you may have more success.
Good Luck.
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Thanks Forguette for the idea. I had tried using all the usual wildcard and fuzzy methods without success. But I do see that 'Rodden' is another word for 'Rowan' - it can refer to both the tree and its berry (https://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/rodden_n1) - as in Star Trek's Gene Roddenberry!!
Doesn't help identify its or Stonyfold's location but hunting around Arradoul on the OS, there's a Stonie's Bridge and an ancient Stone Circle between Arradoul and Slackhead both with some stands of trees nearby. Probably a false association but not outwith the bounds of possibility.
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although he also borrowed money from the Kirk Session in 1720
Some of the kirk session's money was kept in "the box" (whose lock was forever being repaired), some was in the hands of the treasurer and some, taken in by the clerk or the officer, remained in their hands until the regular reckoning. However, if there was a build-up of funds, the session actively sought someone of good credit, often a heritor with land as security, to lend the surplus to at interest. In the days before easily accessible banks, this was seen as a prudent measure.
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Ok, howabout 31/01/1905 Banff Advertiser. Auchlunkart estate, properties to let: Rodin on Finn???? Farm. Sorry I don't have access to the piece to get the real words. Same paper/time a John Fowler Rodin wins 2nd prize in poultry competition. Also same paper 1893 and 1898 mention "Jamie Broon fae Rodin."
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Ok, howabout 31/01/1905 Banff Advertiser. Auchlunkart estate, properties to let: Rodin on Finn???? Farm.
Bodinfinnoch Farm on Auchlunkart Estate. Parish of Botriphnie.
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/nj3748
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.52394&lon=-3.04139&layers=5&b=1
Same paper/time a John Fowler Rodin wins 2nd prize in poultry competition.
John Fowler, Roslin.
same paper 1893 and 1898 mention "Jamie Broon fae Rodin."
fae Raffin (Rathven).
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Howabout this then: https://calm.abdn.ac.uk/archives/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=SCA+BC%2f2%2f26&pos=1
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Forguette, thank you. Interesting! And enlightening. Turns out that "William Scrougie, Roddin" was the Minister of Rathven at the time, becoming the Bishop of Argyll.
Here's a bit from the Fasti: "WILLIAM SCROGIE, M.A.; pres. by George Hay of Rannes before 7th March, and ord. 18th April 1649; app. Bishop of Argyll (q.v.) but retained his parochial charge till Lammas 1667." - Fasti.
Cramond has lots on him in his book The Church and Churchyard of Rathven. I cannot see anything which would identify Roddin as such but there's a reference to "the Bigging on the Mans of Rathwen, at Mr Wm Scrogie's entire in anno 1649". Maybe someone can translate this! Earlier "...the whol begging on the mans..." Is Bigging a place or just a way of saying 'making bigger'? Is Mans, Mains or Manse? The context suggests Manse of course.
I don't suppose for a minute the current Manse is on the site of this 1649 Manse, maybe someone will know. But Roddin appears to be the name of the manse in Rathven and/or its associated glebe, and must be basically in the middle of the village close by the old church.
So back to my question: where was "in the Rodin"? (And happily I have found the reference in the now-online Rathven Kirk Session - must have missed it when wading through the actual book in Edinburgh years ago.) The above indicates it being in the middle of Rathven village. Although then I have to ask why the OPR records the parents were in Arradoul when child was baptised (20 Dec 1732), yet the Kirk Session records them 'in Rodin' and 'in the Rodin' (14 May 1732). Maybe I've answered my own question - the couple moved in the summer of 1732. Or: would the Minister live 'out of town'?
Forguette, your persistence has paid off! I've got a lot more background to chew over.
Thanks.
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there's a reference to "the Bigging on the Mans of Rathwen, at Mr Wm Scrogie's entire in anno 1649". Maybe someone can translate this! Earlier "...the whol begging on the mans..." Is Bigging a place or just a way of saying 'making bigger'? Is Mans, Mains or Manse? The context suggests Manse of course. [/quote A 'biggin(g)' is a building. Nothing to do with enlargement - it's from the word 'big' or 'bigg' which means 'build'. So in this context it's more likely to be a building on the Mains of Rathven than the Manse.
Not sure about 'entire', though. Could it be 'entrie', I wonder? 1649 was when William Scroggie entered the charge of Rathven.
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Mans would be Manse, and a bigging is a building. Usually one being/or just recently built.
Although several seem to retain that, eg. 'New Bigging' as a name. The geograph link you sent, think the map on it had a bigging at Rathven.
For some reason, I have never been able to get the maps on nls to appear on screen, and the map search box doesn't interact with me. Tried many, many times, and settings, over the years. I know not why.
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I think entire would be entrie, no proof of that though.
Burnside is another poser, in the births alone, there is Burnside... of Buckie, of Rathven, of Tynet, of Arradoul, of Walkerdales, and just Burnside.
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Mans would be Manse
I don't think so, in this context. 'A building on the Manse of Rathven' makes no sense at all, but 'a building on the Mains of Rathven' makes perfect sense.
There are dozens of places called Burnside. I think that originally all of them would have been 'Burnside of xxxx', but in many cases the 'of xxx' has disappeared over time, but without knowing what xxx was there is no chance of pinpointing which one it was.
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Yes, "entry" makes entire sense.
Help again please! My Clarks (see my original post) came from Mains of Buckie. Is Mains of Rathven a different place? There are these confusing adjacent entries in Farm Horse Tax Rolls for 1797/8
- James Bennet Mains Buckie 1 horse
- James Bennet Mains Rathven 2 horse
- James Burges Mains Rathven 1 horse
I know it's long after. And I think I remember looking into once before, but I cannot find any details.
I have innumerable references to Mains of Buckie (my Clarks). The OPR has several references to the Manse of Rathven (e.g. 1786 and 1796), some for a Miss Ann Grant, and only one for Mains of Rathven - for the same Miss Anne Grant! It looks as though I should conclude that 'Mans of Rathven' is 'Manse of Rathven'.
So, to quote Cramond again, "...Mr Wm Scrogie to have the other half [of the corn on the glebe], and the whole beggin on the mans sall be mortified to the use of the Kirk in all tyme coming." He had taken over from Mr John Logie, and it seems he had taken over "the croft pertaining to the vicarage" in 1627. The "mans and gleib" is written in 1580, being part of "the haill vicarage of Rathven".
The buildings on the 'Mans of Rathven' are described on 11 Sep 1649 and again on 26 Sep 1650. The former starts with "A sklait house, watertight, a laighe hall, a double dor, five windows, whereof one is glasse....". The whole place was decrepit; kitching, barns, stable and byre are mentioned.
I'm sure I'm missing a lot, possibly some things very obvious, but even the contemporary locals seem confused as to its name: Manse or Mains.
I'm not going to get involved with multi-Burnsides! I tore my hair out once with multiple James Clarks from multiple Burnsides and I'm not doing it again! Not enough hair, for one.
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Very confusing!
There were various Burges(s)/Bennet(t) marriages in Rathven in the late 18th/early 19th centuries, some of them Roman Catholic.
James Burgess in Thornybank (RC) was married to Elizabeth Bennett in New Mill (Protestant) in 1828 by the RC priest at Preshome. Their son William, baptised RC, became minister of the Church of Scotland at Ardallie near Old Deer in Aberdeenshire.
The minister of Rathven at the time was George Grant, who died in 1789. Miss Anne Grant might be his daughter Anna, born 1750, died 1791, except that she married John Wilson, so unless it was a very brief marriage indeed it can't be her - she would have been referred to as Mistress, not Miss, once she was married, or indeed before that if she was aged anything much over her mid-20s.
There doesn't seem to be a listing of Rev Grant in the horse tax rolls, but he is listed as having one female servant in 1777/1778. (I find it hard to believe that there were only 11 female and 6 male servants in the whole parish of Rathven!)
LIBINDX has references to Mains of Arradoul, Buckie, Cowfurach, Findochty, Gollachy, Oxhill, Rannas, Tannachy and Thornybank, but not Mains of Rathven.
???
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There is another ref to mains of Rathven 1792 Nov17 Elspet Stenson (Stevenson?) md Wm Forbes from Shore of Buckie.
Fordyce, I have to say, sorry, but I reckon your James Clark at Mains of Buckie, is the same James Clark from Burnside of Buckie. Moving to Mains shortly before his marriage. Birth witnesses is how I came to this conclusion.
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Stoneyfold makes a few mentions, different spellings each time. Stoniefold. Stonnyfold.
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Forguette, thanks for your continuing interest.
My direct ancestor 5xgtgdfather James Clark in Mains of Buckie married Elspet Andrew. I have that he was born 1724 Burnside [of Buckie] s/o James Clark b c1690, but it's by no means certain this is my ancestor especially where for years many sources had had him, and still do, as b 1727 s/o John Clark & Margaret Robertson in Woodside of Rannes. There are in fact four or five contemporary James Clarks: in Burnside of Buckie, in Rannes then Woodside, in Arradoul, and in Freuchnie (then/and) in Hilton.
If you want a bevy of James Clarks, here's his baptism: "6-1-1724 : James, Lawll Son to James Clark & Janet Clark in Burnside was baptized witnesses James Clark in Woodside & James Clark in Arradoul." - Rathven OPR. I like to understand the relationship of the witnesses to the parents.
Anyway, that's not the issue. His father was James Clark who married first his cousin Janet Clark then secondly Isobel Geddes: this James Clark was in Burnside of Buckie throughout. That's settled as much as it will ever be.
But my research is earlier up the Janet Clark line as well as earlier up the James Clark line, along both of which is where you hit multiple James Clarks. One such being James Clark in Arradoul (I have deemed him the witness in 1724) who married Isobel Ritchie abt 1706 (she died in Stonyfold); they had a son James Clark in Arradoul and/or Stonyfold and/or the Rodin who had the illeg child James Clark.
The Rathven OPR is easy to search - http://charlesflett.co.uk/genealogy.htm
I have downloaded each transcribed segment and combined them into one searchable file.
I am fortunate in also having a complete set of photos of the actual microfilm so I can verify the transcription. (No, I am not offering lookups - use ScotlandsPeople!)
So I probably have harvested every occurrence of Stonyfold and variations.
Forfarian, thought you might follow that up! Everything does seem to point towards Manse rather than Mains.
To sum up, I'm going to have to accept for the moment that Rodin/Rodden is the prior name that persisted occasionally for what became the Manse of Rathven (plus glebe) and whatever dwellings there were associated with it, and that the couple James Clark (being son of James Clark a heritor in Arradoul and a Kirk Elder & Isobel Ritchie) & Jean Watson were in Arradoul at the time of their illeg child's birth and baptism in 1732. Jean Watson disappears (possibly with the child) and James Clark marries Margaret Green in 1734. Full of holes, but where would we be if we ever completed our research?
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Have you found this site? It's got a lot of background info on the area if you do a search on Rathven. Very interesting.
https://www.scalan.co.uk
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Have you found this site? It's got a lot of background info on the area if you do a search on Rathven. Very interesting.
https://www.scalan.co.uk
Oh yes! Visited the physical site now a museum several times (and hoping I might be able to go again this autumn - it's a wonderful place). Bishop John Geddes of Scalan came from Corriedown, Rathven (he was key to the continuation/survival of Catholicism in Scotland). And his cousin the famous Rev Dr Alexander Geddes philologist & poet came from Arradoul (he was a characher - not everyone's cup of tea). This family group leads from Corriedown and Cairnfield down my maternal line via William Geddes in Slackabate, Rathven. Get into the way people intermarried and moved between the Established and the Catholic churches at the drop of a hat, and you have a real rat's nest to unravel.