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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: RW1 on Monday 20 April 20 13:48 BST (UK)
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Hello.
I would like to ask whether a 19 year-old man marrying in 1891, would have been considered not married at all, if he hadn't had permission from his surviving parent?
He joined the army six months after this marriage, possibly deserting the wife, and then married again in 1899, stating his condition as "Bachelor".
His older brother was a witness at the first wedding, but not his mother, who of course may have attended but not signed as a witness - but how would she have given her permission otherwise? Could the older brother have given it?
Any comments would be much appreciated.
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Did he show his age as 19 on the first marriage, or was there a note saying 'of full age'?
There wouldn't have been any investigation in the two possibilities a) saying he was of full age, and therefore being able to marry on his own cognisance or b) stating his correct age, and saying that he had the permission of his parents
I believe the first marriage will be legal, and therefore any second marriage whilst his first wife was living would have been bigamy which was more common (I have an instance in my tree) because of the cost of divorce.
What happened to the first wife? Was she still alive at the time of the second marriage and did she marry or 'live with' another man?
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Thanks for that.
Yes, he did state his age as 19. I hadn't realised that he could simply say that he had his mother's permission.
I've had no luck at all tracing his first wife - no remarriage or death in either name.
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Thanks for that.
Yes, he did state his age as 19. I hadn't realised that he could simply say that he had his mother's permission.
I've had no luck at all tracing his first wife - no remarriage or death in either name.
She may well be living with another man under his name as 'married' which will make her tricky to find....
my bigamous example was my greatx2 grandfather who split up from my greatx2 grandmother after what I can demonstrate must have been a very short period.
He moved away from their local area and after a few years and a couple of children 'married' using his mother's maiden name as his own, and saying he was a bachelor.
My greatx2 grandmother simply lived with a new 'husband' and had another family. She didn't marry bigamously though.
I only know this because my great grandmother was the offspring of their short-lived marriage, and was registered under the correct name of her father
She subsequently lived under the name of her mother's second 'husband', and I don't know if she ever knew he wasn't her father.
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It's not that unusual to see 'bachelor' or 'spinster' rather than 'widower' or 'widow' on a second marriage certificate. It does not necessarily indicate bigamy or deception.
The groom's mother not being a witness to the marriage is not of any particular relevance.
Were there any children from the first marriage?
It may be a coincidence that his second marriage was 8 years after the first, but if he had no contact with the first wife after seven years he would be free to remarry.
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I can't find any children on GRO named Greenland, mmn Mountain.
He was David Moody Greenland, 19 (actual age); she was Elizabeth Mountain (age given 26); married on 11 October 1891, Parish of Old St Pancras. Bride's father's details were: William Mountain, station master. This has led me to Great Grimsby, Lincolnshire - 1871 Census: Elizabeth is 11 and living with mother and father, William Mountain, a station master. This leads to: GRO Reference: ELIZABETH MOUNTAIN 1860 M Quarter in CASTOR Volume 07A Page 586, mmn Hockney - if this is her, she was 31, not 26, on marriage. But then this could be another "William Mountain - station master"!
I did find a newspaper article about Elizabeth Greenland shoplifting in 1895 - her age is given as 38 and address as Clemence Road, Limehouse. But I can't get any further with this.
It's a shame because I know what David did. Army career for 20 years, married Susan Tandy in 1899 and had three children, who settled in South Africa. David came back to England for medical discharge and died in 1913. Susan died in 1942 in Durban.
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Just an update on this....
If I am right about Elizabeth Mountain being the one born in Lincolnshire, c.1860, then she married Joe Athey in 1879 and had a daughter, Edith Jane Athey. After they appear together on the 1881 Census, they are never together again. Edith is with her maternal grandparents in 1891, and then died in 1893, at the age of 13. Joe appears on the Census as a lodger with various families in 1891, 1901 and 1911, describing himself as "Married", and even filling in the 1911 bit, saying his present marriage has lasted 33 years. Unfortunately, he died in 1925, after falling over a wall above a river in Hooton Street, Kilnhurst, Yorkshire.
So, I may have had it right about bigamy - but David was the innocent party and it was his first marriage that was possibly bigamous, but on his wife's part, not his! Sorry, David!
If he married and later found all this out, no wonder he went off to join the Army.
I still can't find what happened to Elizabeth, or even find her on the 1891 Census, when she had possibly already left Joe Athey and gone to London.
I shall keep trying.....
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It's possible the marriage was annulled shortly after.
It may have been reported on in the local press which might
be an avenue to follow.
Being in the Army his 2nd. marriage would have needed the permission of his C.O.
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David's second marriage is detailed on his service record and, bearing in mind the other comments about him, I can't believe that he did anything other than follow all the regulations
I have found nothing in the papers about this.
Thanks.
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..another update.
I've found Elizabeth Mountain marrying (again!) in 1901, to William Allum, in Paddington - she gives her father's details as "William Mountain - Station Master". And ten years later, her birthplace on the 1911 Census confirms she is Elizabeth Mountain from Grimsby. Incidentally, William and Elizabeth Allum are on the 1901 Census together, although they don't marry until July 1901.
However, she gives her name on marriage in 1901 as "Elizabeth Pearce, Widow" - so I'm now looking for a fourth marriage (!) to Mr Pearce - presumably sometime between 1891 and 1901.
I have a burial record at St Marylebone, Westminster, of Elizabeth Allum from 11 December 1927, age 65, but no further detail.
Any help with this Pearce marriage (if there was one) and the death would be much appreciated.
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Just a note on the presumption of death comment, my understanding is that death cannot just be assumed after 7 years but there has to be an actual presumption of death action in Court for an actual declaration/finding to be made.
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Thanks Caroline.
Bearing in mind that I now know it was David's first wife, who was commiting bigamy by marrying David, and she was still very much alive when David married again, would David had had to have had that first, bigamous, marriage annulled?
I can't find any court reporting on this in the BNA.
Many thanks.
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I have no idea if this is of any use to you but found the following, only 1 I can find listed
1892 J qtr Leicester
Benjamin Pearce
to
Elizabeth Mountain
ref 7a 521
Louisa Maud
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The marriage in Leicester 1892, Elizabeth is aged 38, spinster, father George Mountain occ Nurseryman
John
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Thank you John, that rules that one out
Louisa Maud
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"If I am right about Elizabeth Mountain being the one born in Lincolnshire, c.1860, then she married Joe Athey in 1879 and had a daughter, Edith Jane Athey. "
a later census stated no children for Elizabeth, did that mean no children between her and Mr Allum?
Louisa Maud
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Checked 1861 for Elizabeth and checked 2 births shown, both came up with Hockney for MMN, father's occ in 1861 "signal man" so I asked all census for William Mountain firstly signal man and then station master and it only came up with 1881 William , so I suppose from this unless he changed his occupation then you are correct
Louisa Maud
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Is anyone able to read the attached link re newspaper article for Joe Athey to see details of marriage announcement.
John
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPCK-VR3R
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All I can glean at the moment is
Joe Athey
to Elizabeth Mountain
publication 18/04/1878 Lincold, Rutland and Stamford Mercury
Will try another direction
Louisa Maud
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Thanks Louisa Maud and John
Paper says "...on the 13th (April), at the Primitive Methodist chapel, Joe Athey, grocer, of Villery-street, Sheffield, to Elizabeth Mountain, of Waltham;....
That's good, because Joe is a "Fruiterer" on the Census - I'm happy we've got the right people and that Elizabeth went to London. Just a mystery about the "Pearce" bit - I couldn't find a marriage.
The 1911 Census does specify children born of present marriage, so Elizabeth would put "None" with William Allum. However, Joe Athey has put present marriage of 33 years and 1 child, none still living (that would be his daughter, Edith Jane, with Elizabeth) - so I don't think that other marriage would be "our" Joe.
Elizabeth's MMN was Hockney and she had three siblings that I've tracked and who give no clues: Sarah Mountain-Burnett; Charlotte Mountain-Sarjantson; and George Hockney Mountain.
Strangely, Sarah and Charlotte don't seem to have GRO records for birth.
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Elizabeth might not have married Mr Pearce, lots didn't in those days, have you looked at variations, so she would have married as Elizabeth Athey ?
Louisa Maud
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Yes, tried Mountain (maiden name), Athey (1st husband), Greenland (2nd husband) - I've looked for ANY Elizabeth with a father called William Mountain or who is a "Station Master". I know that not all the London Church Marriage Registers will be on ancestry, which would record the father's details.
I've looked at 68 Star Street (1901 marriage address given by Elizabeth, presumably somewhere near Paddington) and no clue from that - although by 1901 Census Elizabeth was already living with William Allum (although not married) and 1891 Census was before she married David Moody Greenland. I think Mr Pearce would come in between, if there was one?
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Yes, Star St is not far from Paddington Station from Praed St
Found for 2 unregistered daughters, parents William and Jane
Sarah Mountain 06/06/1846 Laceby not from church records
Charlotte
Parish ch Clee
18/07/1848 Occ Tailor and railway gaet keeper
Louisa Maud
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Thanks Louisa Maud.
Great that you found those - I wonder why there's no GRO for them. I thought they might have been Jane Hockney's children, but she married William Mountain in the March quarter 1846.
Yes, there is a Star Street in Paddington (the register just says "68 Star Street"), so I'm also looking at Star Street, West Ham, just in case - although it is likely to be the Paddington one, I guess.
Thank you.
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The grooms address was local to that area
LM
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Elizabeth's brother, George Hockney Mountain, died on 12 December 1890, when his niece, Edith Jane, had already been "abandoned" by Elizabeth and left with the grandfather, William Mountain.
I'm going to order George's Will and see if there is any provision for his niece or, even better, some kind of reference to Elizabeth.
I'll post an update here when I've got it.
Many thanks for all your comments.
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unbelievable that she abandond her child but we really don' t know the history but we cannot change it
Louisa Maud
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RW1, you probably have this but just incase:
1. Birth ref Eliza Ann Mountain JQ 1853 Caistor 7a 553 mmn Hockney, baptised 26.6.1853 Grimsby parents William & Jane -- occupation railway servant
2 Birth ref John KIRKBY Mountain JQ 1855 Caistor 7a 541 mmn Hockney, baptised 27.5.1855 Clee, as John KIRK Mountain parents William & Jane --occupation Railway servant
John.
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Thanks John.
No, didn't have those. Explains the big gap between her sisters and Elizabeth. Must have died as children - will check.
Thank you.
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Eliza Ann reg Caistor died Dec qtr 1854
John Kirkby reg Caistor died Dec 1855
looks like no registration for these 2 little ones either
Louisa Maud
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RW
Have you by any chance traced the Mountain family from Lincs?
Louisa Maud
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Eliza Ann reg Caistor died Dec qtr 1854
John Kirkby reg Caistor died Dec 1855
looks like no registration for these 2 little ones either
Louisa Maud
Birth registrations given louisa maud.
John
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RW
Have you by any chance traced the Mountain family from Lincs?
Louisa Maud
I've tracked the two sisters. And got in touch with a present-day Sarjantson, who doesn't know about Elizabeth.
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It never ceases to amaze me re coincidence in family history research. Interesting article dated 9th November 1929 re the death of one William Mountain aged 60 Station Master at Skegness. Must admit I wondered for a moment if he may have been a son of William & Jane as timescales would have fitted.
John
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One more birth to fill in another wee gap.
John William Mountain ref mq 1857 Caistor 7a 570 mmn Hockney. Died aged 1 the following year.
John
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Further to my post regarding Elizabeth's brother, George, and whether there would be any clues in his Will - I failed to notice this was an "Administration", so there is no Will.
However, I did obtain a possible death certificate (one of two for Elizabeth Allum of about the right age) and that came yesterday (after only ordering on Tuesday, incidentally, from GRO - two days, fastest so far).
Elizabeth Allum died on 11 December 1927 at 12 Exmoor Street (Kensington, I assume, as that is the Registry), which I think is the St Marylebone Hospital. She is "Widow of - Allum, occupation unknown" - so that fits with all the mystery and no-one knowing who she was, ie no family around her. She lived at 3 Daventry Street, NW1 - as did the informant "R Holland". The informant's name is followed by "Causing the body to be buried". Is this a standard wording? Could R Holland have been a landlord, perhaps? Who didn't know anyone else to deal with Elizabeth's burial? I haven't found an "R Holland" at 3 Daventry Street on the 1911 or 1939 records, and wondered if there is another way to find him/her?
Many thanks for any pointers and thoughts on the "Causing the body to be buried" comment, particularly by someone who lived at the same address (not a solicitor, or other "official", etc).
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St Charles' Hospital is in North Kensington, London. .
The foundation stone for the hospital was laid in 1879 and it was officially opened by the Prince and Princess of Wales as the St Marylebone Union Infirmary in 1881.
This hospital is still up and running, is in London W10 and is not near Marylebone, more like Notting hill/Kensington, it has connections now with St Mary's hospital Praed St, off Edgware Road,
It was always known as a hospital you went into and didn't come out, fortunately when my father was in this hospital he didn't know it but he didn't come out
R Holland could be a hospital official, doe sit give his/her position, I assume tht this person was responsible for organising her funeral
Louisa Maud
PS, Elizabeth Allum should be on electoral registers if anyone can access them for 1926/1927 and 1928 at Daventry Street, I am not sure where NW1 was
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Thanks, Louisa Maud. But R Holland lived at Elizabeth's address - so perhaps a landlord? Or maybe some sort of care home employee, where Elizabeth was before going into hospital? Or Elizabeth's latest partner? But that wording sounds too official to be a partner?
I can't gain anything from present-day streetview of Daventry Street - I think it's been redeveloped since 1927.
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I am not sure but it might be in St Pancras area, I can't find her listed there , the only one I have found is Belmont St with George Allum
LM
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Daventry Street is still there, in Marylebone - it's very near York Street, where Elizabeth and William Allum were in 1911. This further makes me think I've got the right death.
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He was Richard Holland
London Electoral Registers (on Ancestry)
1927
Westminster, St Marylebone
Daventry Street No 3
Allum Elizabeth (Mrs)
Cullen Amy (Mrs)
Ellis Minnie (Mrs)
Hamilton Henry (abode 5 Howley Place, Paddington W2)
Hamilton James Payton (abode 64 Maldon Road, Acton W3)
Hamilton May (abode 64 Maldon Road, Acton W3)
Holland Richard
Rhind Louisa (Mrs)
Image 178 of 547 if you have access
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Thanks, Comberton.
So a house of multiple occupation - that fits with Elizabeth being a widow on her own, and probably more or less unknown to the other occupants; at least in terms of details about her life, eg husband's first name and occupation, which were not disclosed on the death certificate.
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UPDATE!
Further to ancestry.co.uk working their way through the London marriage registers - I have found another marriage for Elizabeth Mountain - to Edward Ware on 7 October 1886. Elizabeth, again gives her father as "William Mountain, Station Master", and the signatures match.
Following this, the mysterious "Mr Pearce" is identified (Elizabeth married her last husband as "Elizabeth Pearce, Widow"). Elizabeth Ware, Widow, married Kenneth Hamilton Pearce on 24 December 1897. Again, her father is "William Mountain, Station Master (retired)". Unfortunately, this one is not on ancestry, yet, so I've had to buy the certificate and of course it is not her original signature to compare.
Edward Ware started divorce proceedings in July 1890 against Elizabeth and John Le Bos (co-respondent). I don't think a divorce was granted, however - I can't find any reference to it in the newspapers. Six months later Edward was prosecuted for taking a friend round to Elizabeth's house and assaulting her. The only John Le Bos I can find is someone from Jersey?
Kenneth Pearce was admitted to a private asylum in 1901, and later emigrated to Australia, where he died in 1920.
I think Edward Ware (born 1860 in Bermondsey), later lived with a woman called Florence Golby in Sheffield. I cannot find him after the 1911 Census, when he is at 23 Sambourne (or Lambourne) Square, Sheffield.
I am now investigating a possible 6th marriage - to James Duke, registered in the June quarter 1886 at Pancras - the same year she married Edward Ware.
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I am now investigating a possible 6th marriage - to James Duke, registered in the June quarter 1886 at Pancras - the same year she married Edward Ware.
I think the marriages listed are register offices marriages, ref 1b 258, I can't find it on Ancestry so far
Did you find Elizabeth on 1911?
Louisa Maud
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Did you find Elizabeth on 1911?
Yes, William and Elizabeth Allum are at 88 York Street. This was her longest marriage, lasting ten years until William's death later in 1911.