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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Monmouthshire => Wales => Monmouthshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: CaroleW on Friday 24 April 20 23:07 BST (UK)
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I have also posted this on the Lancashire board
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=829551.new#new
I have all other info on this couple except a marriage. Both were born in Monmouthshire but all 3 of their children were born in Liverpool between 1868-1874. Henry died in Liverpool 1879
In 1861 Fanny was still in Usk Monmouthshire
Fanny is shown as Frances Lucas on the 1841 census but on all later censuses and on her re-marriage in 1886 & 1906 death reg she is Fanny
She re-married 1886 to Hugh McClements and is shown as a widow on the marriage cert
I am beginning to think they never married
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Maybe the children's baptism records would state whether the parents were actually married .
What are their names and birthdays ?
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I only found a Henry Morgan marrying an Amelia Lucas
Kings Norton
September 1851
Not good. I tried.
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From GRO Index-
Amy Morgan Dec 1868. Liverpool . Mmn Lucas
From Family Search
Baptised 29 November 1868. St Peter and St Nicholas. Liverpool. Parents Henry Morgan and Fanny
No indication in baptism register that they were not married. Amy born 11 November. Living in Clare Street.
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Hi
Yes - that’s what I came up with. They had 2 daughters and a son - all baptised. Daughters births were registered but not son’s - mmn Lucas
I just need the marriage cert to confirm if Henry’s father is Charles - 1841 entry??
Either they didn’t marry or the entry is somewhere in cyberspace ???
I even wondered if Fanny was previously married then married Henry - but I can’t find any Henry Morgan marriage to a Fanny or Frances that makes that possible. Fanny was single in 1861
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Have you followed up the Ancestry record of their marriage and children? (I don't have access to Ancestry and the google link came back as 'page no longer available').
Keep safe.
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Hi
There is no Ancestry record. No marriage on either freebmd/Ancestry/LancsBMD/FamilySearch or anywhere else I can see.
I was desperately hoping that a fresh pair of eyes might find them - or that somebody had some local records that weren't online
The only census I know for sure that Henry is on is 1871 - he died 1879. Unfortunately it just shows Monmouthshire as his birthplace and there are 4 x 1841 possibilities. As Fanny was from Usk I am favouring that 1841 entry - parents Charles & Elizabeth. In 1851 he is shown as b Landany & in 1861 Gwehellog?
If I could find a marriage and confirm his father was Charles - then I would know I have the right family
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On the 1871 Census, living with the family is Henry M Daniels nephew born 1847 Monmouthshire. He was born in what is probably Langstone according to other censuses in which he is listed.There is a Henry M Daniels baptised in Langstone 26 Jul 1847 to a Daniel (a miller) and Jane Daniel. Daniel Daniels married Jane Mogan Dec 1843 Reg Dist Newport 26 111. Jane Morgan is likley to be your Henry's sister, so if you can't find Henry Morgan's mariage to Fanny, try looking at Jane & Daniel Daniels's marriage to confirm Jane & Henry Morgan's father.
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The 1843 marriage is on FindMyPast - The couple married at Malpas , Monmouthshire - Jane's residence was Malpas and Daniels was Langstone. Both of Full Age Her father is listed as John Morgan - Famer
Kay
Witnesses Henry Jones and Thomas O Tone??
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Hi
Thank you. I had tracked nephew Henry and also his sister Amy back to the 1851 census where they are both living separately with relatives. Henry Daniel is shown as nephew to Henry & Elizabeth Morgan. Henry was b 1821 Carmarthenshire & Elizabeth in Gloucestershire so I ruled them out.
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It seems like Henry and Fanny had 2 more children before 1871 census - William Henry Morgan, of Clare street (same address as 1871 census), who was buried 12 Jul 1866 at Walton Park, Lancashire, England aged 2 (so born 1864).
GRO Index has MORGAN, WILLIAM HENRY LUCAS
born 1864 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 261
And a John Henry Morgan of 24 Clare street who was buried aged 4 on 24 Jun 1866 at Walton Park. Born in 1862
MORGAN, JOHN HENRY LUCAS
GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 232
I wonder if Henry was Henry's second name, but so far I haven't managed to find a marriage. There is a William Henry Morgan marriage Sep 1862 in Liverpool 8b 148, with what looks like one bride missing in the list.
The only baptism I found for a John Henry Morgan is on 7 Dec 1862 at St James, Bristol, father John Henry Morgan a Porter and mother Elizabeth Morgan of Marlboro st.
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Thank you Sam
Re the 1862 marriage
Looking on LancsBMD - John Roberts married Dorothy Lloyd & William James Morgan married Mary Edwards which just leaves William Henry Morgan’s spouse
Nothing for him on LancsBMD or FamilySearch so I need to do a bit of “digging”. I’ll be back!!
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I have checked every Liverpool church on LancsOPC that has marriage transcriptions for the early 1860’s without success
I found a William H Morgan with wife Annie B living in Liverpool in 1871. Neither born Liverpool. One son William H aged 5 b Liverpool shows mmn Knowles but I can’t find a Morgan/Knowles marriage
On daughter Amy’s marriage cert he is just shown as Henry & also on son Henry’s (Harry). 1871 entry & his death reg are just Henry. It’s puzzling why 2 of the entries on that 1862 marriage are on LancsBMD but not William Henry
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I suspect, but may be wrong, that William Henry and William James are the same person. It is possible that the entry has both names.
Parish register image on Ancestry definitely shows the marriage is between William James Morgan and Mary Ann Edwards
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One interesting thing, looking at the marriage entry for Fanny's daughter Amy Morgan in 1900, one witness was Fanny Lucas - who signed her name with with a mark. At this time Fanny (nee Lucas later supposedly Morgan) would have been married to Hugh McClement. Why would she sign her name as Lucas?
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Hi Sam
Wondered when that would come up ;D It's something that's been speculated & discussed and we wondered if the witness was actually Fanny Morgan jnr. No reason why Fanny snr would sign as Lucas having been married for 14yrs to Hugh McClement at that time
We don't know exactly when Fanny jnr she went to live in the IoM after her son John Henry's birth (1893) but we know she is on the 1901 IoM census
Did she go straight after John's birth but return for the wedding but want to keep her true identity secret? We don't know. There is some current speculation that she had another illegitimate child either in Liverpool or IoM - a daughter - but there is no way of proving that at the moment.
We know she married in 1905 in the IoM and remained there until her death but had no children from that marriage
Her illegitimate son was brought up by her sister Amy & her husband John O'Dowd who only married in 1900 although shown as a married couple in 1891
I really don't think Fanny Lucas & Henry Morgan ever married - for whatever reason.
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I did wonder about it being Fanny Jnr, but thought she might have been able to write. Why go all the way to Liverpool was the other thing I wondered. If as it appars that they didn't marry, wouldn't moving to Bristol have been a good choice.
I did have a look at the Workhiuse records, in case there was something useful, but only came across Amy's entry, which I assume you must have.
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Hi Sam
Why Henry & Fanny moved to Liverpool from Monmouthshire is a mystery. It's a long way with the advantages of todays transport let alone back in the 1860's.
The 1871 has over 37,000 people of Welsh birth living in Lancashire of which almost 12,000 were in Liverpool.
My only other theory on why there was no marriage is that possibly Henry was already married before he & Fanny got together. There are far too many Henry Morgan marriages between 1850 - 1860 to prove that theory. Fanny Lucas was still in Monmouth in 1861
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Thank you to everybody who has replied to this post - it's much appreciated.
It was good to know I hadn't missed anything so I think I will go with my gut instinct that they never married and mark this post as completed