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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: c-side on Sunday 26 April 20 00:20 BST (UK)
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This place of birth is taken from the 1861 census in Amble, Northumberland for Janet Richardson (nee Scott). Ancestry have transcribed it as Briglands, FindMyPast have made no attempt at all and I’m struggling to find any location which might fit.
Does anyone have any idea, please?
Christine
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possibly Balfron, Stirlingshire, Scotland, badly spelt phonetically ???
see here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPLW-ZPF2
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It does rather look like Briglands.
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There's a listed 18C house called Briglands which is in Fossoway, Perth and Kinross. May have been an estate there and that was where Janet was born.
Annette
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Do you know whereabouts in Scotland Janet’s husband or older children were born? (in case the couple both came from the same area)
Where did Janet and James marry? (in case they married in the bride’s parish)
Any answers may give you a place to start to search, though I am sure you have probably considered all of the above suggestions.
I think the place name is written as Briglands, but may be the enumerator’s interpretation.
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Depending on how it was pronounced, there is this variation (and fairly close to Northumberland):
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgelands
https://maps.nls.uk/view/75674497
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I would agree that it says Scotland Briglands. I would start looking for her in Kinross.
https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/search/results?st=Briglands (https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/search/results?st=Briglands)
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Check out Scotlandspeople. They have a couple of Janet Scotts born in Fife around the right timeframe. One of them about 12 miles from Briglands.
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There are no records of baptisms of any Scotts at all at any time in the parish of Fossoway, and since the greatest dimension of the parish of Fossoway is 11 miles, anywhere 12 miles from Briglands could not be in Fossoway.
There's also a Bridgelands or Briglands in Selkirkshire and a Brigland in the parish of Mauchline, Ayrshire.
James Richardson and Janet Scott had
Janet, baptised 23 February 1823, Ednam (Roxburghshire)
Robert, baptised 26 August 1829, Edinburgh St Cuthberts
John Sinclair, baptised 6 July 1831, Edinburgh St Cuthberts
Helen, born 15 January 1834, Edinburgh
Isabella, born 6 June 1836, Edinburgh
Mary Ann, born 8 May 1838, Edinburgh
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Could this be it:
https://ncap.org.uk/frame/8-1-3-1-12-108
Carol
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That is indeed Briglands in the parish of Fossoway.
See also this map http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NT0299 and
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=56.17929&lon=-3.57311&layers=6&b=1
Whether this Briglands is or in not the correct place is open to question.
There are also http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NT4830 and
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NS5128
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I have followed these people from their daughter Mary Ann who consistently gives her place of birth as Edinburgh and names her father as James when she married.
There are 4 potential siblings in Edinburgh (names provided by Forfarian), two of whom died there in infancy, so I can place them in that area between 1829 and 1838. Before 1829 there does not seem to be any sign of them there but James was an Ag Lab so probably moved around a lot. I haven’t been able to link Janet born Ednam 1823 to them yet but she is on my list.
James died in 1856 and is buried in Warkworth, Northumberland.
The family were in England by 1841 so most census records simply give Scotland as place of birth. This clue on the 1861 for Janet is the only possible lead I have.
Also this is not my family. I am researching for a friend who can no longer see well enough to do her own research. We met on a genealogy course about 20 years ago when online research was very limited so this part of her family was left unexplored. I am trying not to play fast and loose with her cash so am hoping to be reasonably certain before I use up SP credits.
Thank you all for your suggestions and guidance. I will now follow them up and see where they lead.
Christine
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This may be a fairly wild long shot, but in the Wikipedia article on Bridgelands found by Ruskie (Reply #4 above), it says that the wife of Sir Henry Raeburn was from Bridgelands, Selkirk.
She was Ann Edgar, daughter of daughter of Peter Edgar of Bridgelands, and widow of James Leslie of Deanhaugh.
Here's the long shot, or maybe it's just a weird coincidence. Sir William Slater Brown (1845-1917), Lord Provost of Edinburgh, was the son of Henry Raeburn Brown (1806/7-1852) who lived in Stockbridge. I assume that Henry was named after Sir Henry Raeburn, who also lived in Stockbridge at that time.
After a lot of research, I still haven't found a baptism of Henry Raeburn Brown, but I think his parents may have been James Brown and Janet Richardson. Also that the family may have had connections to Duns, because one article about Sir William said that he was born in Duns.
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Never underestimate a long shot ;D
It looks like I'm going to be busy this evening
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This is a previous thread about Henry Raeburn Brown.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=319429.0
My reasoning about his parentage is a bit tortuous, but I'll try to explain.
From the 1841 census at Church Lane, Edinburgh St Stephen's 1841/685/1/143/12
Henry Brown 30 Tailor Midlothian
Janet Brown 70 Scotland not Midlothian
Ann Willson 35 Midlothian
Janet Willson 14 Midlothian
Agnes Willson 12 Scotland not Midlothian
George Willson 10 Scotland not Midlothian
Ann Wilson was the daughter of James Brown, gamekeeper. She married George Wilson: 1826, 23rd January. George Wilson, Blacksmith, residing in No 3 Dean Street, Stockbridge and Ann Brown, residing in Allan Street, Stockbridge, both in this parish, daughter of James Brown, Gamekeeper there, have been three times proclaimed in order to marriage in the parish church of St Cuthbert's, and no objections have been offered. Married on the twenty-seventh current by the Reverend Dr David Dickson one of the ministers of this parish. [Edinburgh St Cuthbert's Parish Register]
George Wilson and Ann Brown had Janet, born 7 November 1826 in Edinburgh St Cuthbert's, and George, baptised 10 April 1831 in Dysart, Fife.
I haven't found a baptism for Ann Brown, but there is a baptism of Robert Brown: 1808. Born March 7. James Brown Grange Gardens and Janet Richardson his spouse A Son Robert, Baptised April 19. Witnesses Family. [Register of Baptisms James Place Edinburgh]
Henry Raeburn Brown married in 1843: 2d January 1843. Henry Raeburn Brown Tailor residing in no 10 Church Street Stockbridge and Helen Clyde residing in same place both in this parish, daughter of James Clyde coachman residing in Rose Street have been three several times duly and regularly proclaimed in order to marriage in the parish church of St Cuthberts and no objections offered. Married this day by the Reverend John Bruce, one of the Ministers of the parish of St Andrews Edinburgh. [Edinburgh St Cuthberts Register of Marriages]
Henry's children were James, William Slater, Helen, Janet Richardson, Henry and John.
So putting it all together it seems to me likely that James Brown, gamekeeper, and Janet Richardson must have been the parents of Henry Raeburn Brown, tailor; Ann Brown or Wilson; and Robert Brown. However Henry died before the start of civil registration and I have not found the deaths of either Ann or Robert.
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Hello Forfarian, are you any further forward or have you declared this a brick wall?
My husband recently had a DNA test & Im busy working my way through the connections & a 3rd cousin led me right back to the Henry Raeburn mystery. I have a wild theory to throw out if anyone would like to hear it?
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To be perfectly honest I have not done any more on these Browns. My mother's sister married a later William Slater Brown, and I was helping my cousin trace his paternal side. He has since died, and I haven't pursued the family further.
I would love to hear your wild theory.
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Just a quick one, are you referring to Jeremy whose father William was an MD? If yes, you are definitely family!
I will launch into my wild theory this evening when I have some time.
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Did you consider “Bridgelands”, near Selkirk?
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Yes.
But Jeremy was my cousin on his mother's side, so I'm related to him but only connected, not blood related, to his father William MD.
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Well then Forfarian, you are my husband’s first cousin by marriage 😉
So on to my wild theory - James Brown & Janet Richardson seem to be ghosts, appearing from nowhere, sadly the previous poster who was looking into Janet appears to now be deceased, so we can’t even ask her what she found 🙁
This total lack of a history for James & the sudden appearance of the persisting Henry Raeburn name is eerily coincidental considering the shared connection with Stockbridge, don’t you agree?
Read this https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/person/view/2146663917
Some theories: first, James Brown is in fact a descendant of this James Brown, or second, perhaps the ghost James had a secret second life in Jamaica? Yet another theory is the family in Edinburgh that Isabella got sent to was the Slater Brown descendant? The fact that her portrait was painted by Raeburn perhaps sparked the name being adopted so firmly for so many generations?
Another thought is James Brown the ghost was somehow a recipient of the uplift of Stockbridge that is attributed directly to Raeburn https://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/edinburgh/stockbridge/index.html & James then used his name for his son as a token of appreciation?
Lastly, this was suggested by a recently discovered 3rd cousin, “The story I have been told is that one of my great, great, great grandfathers was a Taylor and a Neighbour of the portrait artist Henry Raeburn and because they were friends, this is where the name came from.”
I’m assuming you have easier access to records in Edinburgh, so perhaps one of these theories sparks your interest & you fancy a challenge 🤔
Finally, I found a link to a biography of the portrait artist written by his great grandson that may/may not hold some tantalising clues…
https://electricscotland.com/history/other/Life-of-Sir-Henry-Raeburn.pdf
I would chase this down but I’m neck deep in an MSc, so dare not 😂
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It's a splendid theory, but I'm not sure I would go with it.
From the information in my earlier thread, you can see that in 1826, James Brown was described as a gamekeeper in the marriage record of Ann Brown to George Wilson, and that in 1841 Ann and her Wilson children were living with Henry Brown, tailor, and Janet Brown.
Henry named his first son James and his second daughter Janet; her death certificate gives her name as Janet Richardson Brown. This is a strong pointer to the names of his parents, though he did deviate from the traditional naming pattern by naming his second son William Slater. (I did have a look at the Post Office directories for 1840-1845 to see if there was a William Slater after whom he might have named his son, but I didn't find a likely one in Edinburgh.)
There's nothing there to suggest that Henry's father James Brown was ever a planter in Jamaica; and James Brown of Gattonside died in 1816, whereas Ann's (and therefore Henry's) father was not described as deceased when she married in 1826.
Another slight spanner in the works is that the painter Sir Henry Raeburn was not the only Henry Raeburn in the first decade of the 19th century. There was another Henry Raeburn who was a merchant in Leith at the same time as Sir Henry was painting portraits in York Place. Maybe it was he after whom Henry Raeburn Brown was named?
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Sigh, it was fun cobbling together though…..
Actually, the previous contributor c-side who tracked down Janet Richardson’s family did a pretty good job, they all checked out so far except the sibling Robert. It’s just James Brown’s side that remains stubbornly blank.
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Yes. Sorry to be a wet blanket.
I reckon Robert must either have died before 1855 or emigrated and I am wondering if Ann Brown or Wilson and her children also emigrated as I haven't found anything on them after the 1841 census.
Would still like to know where the William Slater came from, however.
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Speculation.
William Slater Brown was born in Edinburgh in 1844/1845, parents Henry Raeburn Brown and Janet Richardson.
But why was he named William Slater?
In the 1841 census in Edinburgh is a William Slater, aged 70, a tailor, born in Scotland but not in Midlothian. Given that Henry Raeburn Brown was a tailor, could there be some connection?
WS is in the household of William Knight and Margaret Knight, both 25 and born in Midlothian, and several other people including a John Slater, 35, born Midlothian, with wife Janet and some children.
This John Slater died in 1868, married to Janet Gloag, and parents William Slater and Agnes Rutherford. The 1861 census says he was born in Fala, and sure enough, William Slater and Agnes Rutherford's seven children were baptised in Fala and Soutra between 1796 and 1806.
So was Henry Raeburn Brown perhaps apprenticed to William Slater?
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Valid points there Forfarian, are there searchable apprentice lists perhaps? I see mention comes up periodically 🤔 If we could make this connection it would go some way to solving where Slater came from, even William tbh.
I just feel there is a missing link somewhere - how did we go from James Brown gamekeeper to Henry Raeburn tailor? I wonder if a sibling “James” perhaps died early, also, only 2 children Ann & Henry is really unusual for the period.
I wish we were dealing with Cornish records, they are far more comprehensive, sigh…
As for the other mystery, no, not Scotland at all, rather Denmark, South Africa & Rhodesia
Another mystery I’ve stumbled on is the father of Roberts Dods 1650-1675 b Dunbar called Dods of Dunbar who is 3rd GGF to Sir William Slater Brown’s wife Margaret Dodds 1840-1912, is missing parents. Others claim it is Nicolaus Dunbar 1625-1665, but he was born in Elgin, so over 200 miles from Dunbar. That doesn’t make sense unless the Dods of Dunbar refers to Nicolaus Dunbar rather than the place. What do you think?
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Valid points there Forfarian, are there searchable apprentice lists perhaps? I see mention comes up periodically 🤔 If we could make this connection it would go some way to solving where Slater came from, even William tbh.
I just feel there is a missing link somewhere - how did we go from James Brown gamekeeper to Henry Raeburn tailor? I wonder if a sibling “James” perhaps died early, also, only 2 children Ann & Henry is really unusual for the period.
Yes, though you've left out Robert, the only one actually in the records.
As for the other mystery, no, not Scotland at all, rather Denmark, South Africa & Rhodesia
I don't know anything about researching in Denmark, and records from South Africa and Rhodesia seem quite hard to access.
Another mystery I’ve stumbled on is the father of Roberts Dods 1650-1675 b Dunbar called Dods of Dunbar who is 3rd GGF to Sir William Slater Brown’s wife Margaret Dodds 1840-1912, is missing parents. Others claim it is Nicolaus Dunbar 1625-1665, but he was born in Elgin, so over 200 miles from Dunbar. That doesn’t make sense unless the Dods of Dunbar refers to Nicolaus Dunbar rather than the place. What do you think?
What I think is that I would need to see the full paper trail to prove each step of that line of descent before I would start wondering about a connection between Robert Dods and Nicolas Dunbar.
Robert Dods, father of George and grandfather of Margaret Dods, appears to have died before the 1841 census. The probability is that he was the son of Alexander Dods and Janet Lorain, baptised in Duns 10 April 1772, but as you can see from the rest of the Brown and Dods families, there are many records that have simply not survived, and he could have been an entirely different Robert Dods whose baptism record is one of the missing ones.
But for the moment I'll assume that he is the right Robert Dods. Alexander Dods and Janet Lorain were married in Longformacus in 1766 and there are two recorded children, John in 1769 and Robert in 1772. Was Alexander the one baptised in Duns in 1746, parents Thomas Dods and Margaret Scot, or was he another one missing from the records? 20 was quite young for a man to marry, because most artisans and labourers were not in a position to support a wife and family at the age of 20. Further, if he was the one who married Margaret Scott, you'd expect him to name a son Thomas, and there's no record of a Thomas.
So I am quite sceptical about any supposed descent from someone another 100 years earlier. Did that come from an online tree? Because if it did, don't trust it unless and until you have found evidence to corroborate every step of the way back. The baptism and marriage records on their own are not sufficient to prove every generation.
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Mmm, there’s the rub Forfarian, not to be trusted!
How are you accessing this census data? I find it pretty hit & miss, but you seem to have got the hang of it
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I use transcriptions on FreeCEN, which are far and away the best available, but they are a long way from having transcribed all the available census, so if FreeCEN doesn't have the one I am interested in I also use a commercial site which is better than Ancestry (not difficult!) but still leaves a lot to be desired.
The best source of all, of course, is the originals at Scotland's People.
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Ah, excellent, thanks for that resource 👏🏻👏🏻