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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Forfarian on Sunday 26 April 20 22:00 BST (UK)
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Charles Chaplin was born on 11 December 1832 in Chelmsford, Essex, parents Henry Chaplin, book binder and Lucy Dean, and baptised in Springfield, Essex on 6 January 1833.
In 1841 he was with his father and siblings in Chelmsford. In 1851 he was an apprentice baker in Chelmsford, staying in the household of his master Richard Stannard. In 1861 he was staying with his brother Henry and family at 14a Brook Street, Hammersmith.
On 27 December 1874 he married Beatrice Buchanan in Edinburgh. He was described as a baker and lived at 49 Couper Street, Leith.
Beatrice was born in Westminster, London in 1848, parents James Buchanan (1816-1891), military corporal and later tailor, and Margaret Tregwell (1818/9-1891). Beatrice had previously had a son James in 1873, when she was described as widow of Samuel McClure, but it is unclear (to me, at least) whether or not she had actually married Samuel McClure. James was living with his mother's parents in Glasgow in 1881.
I have not, so far, found either Charles or Beatrice in any later census than 1861. Nor have they come up in any passenger lists leaving UK, or in the US census.
Has anyone come across them anywhere?
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Hi
Don't know if it's your chap, but there are quite a few London workhouse admissions, mid to late 1890s, of a Charles Chaplin, born around 1831, a Baker.
Beginning in Southwark, then some in Stepney (he is a widower on those).
On ancestry, also FamilySearch, i.e.
17 January 1894, Mint Street
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1Y-D9VH?i=201&cat=289304
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Baptism Woolwich Kent 26 Aug 1879 Arthur Herbert son of Charles Chaplin a baker and Beatrice
address 7 Francis Street
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Thank you for these. That certainly looks like the Charles Chaplin I am looking for. The GRO births index confirms that the mother's maiden name of Arthur Herbert Chaplin is Buchanan.
Still can't find any of them in the census ???
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Might have something at 51 Lower Wood Street Woolwich
Beatrice under the surname McClure which you mentioned as a possible previous husband/partner
1881
Beatrice McClure 32 lodger born London
Bertie McClure 1 born Woolwich
that could be Arthur Herbert
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Might be wrong but following on from that there is a Thorpe family headed by Charles and Beatrice and a child born 1890 has mothers maiden name Buchanan
Haven't checked all the children out yet but
Alphonso George Thorpe Jun 1890 Woolwich mothers name Buchanan
1901
Charles Thorpe 56 dockyard labourer
Beatrice 52 born Westminster
Arthur 21 son born Woolwich
Caroline dau 15
Kathleen dau 12
Alphonzo son 11
Ethel dau 8
William Lillycrop 11 months visitor
Can't find birth registration for Ethel yet Caroline and Kathleen both have MMN Buchanan.
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1891
Charles Thorpe 46
Beatrice 41
Arthur 17
Charles A 9
James 7
Caroline 5
Kathleen 3
Alphonso 1
Charles and James also MMN Buchanan
Charles senior is widowed by 1911 so possible death for Beatrice Dec 1906 Woolwich age 57
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Good heavens, I take my hat off to you, Milliepede! Thank you. Those do look very interesting.
Charles Thorpe married Beatrice McClure in Woolwich in 1881.
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This is even more interesting
Marriage Jun 1881 Woolwich
Charles Thorpe
Beatrice McClure
I do hope it's right, wasn't expecting to find a marriage seeing as she was married to Charles Chaplin at the time. He was short lived in her life wasn't he :(
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Sorry - still transcribing and then missed the relevant post ::)
The Thorpes in 1891
1891 529/101
Woolwich
Charles Thorpe 46 yrs
Beatrice Thorpe 41 yrs
Arthur Thorpe 11 yrs
Charles A Thorpe9 yrs
James Thorpe 7 yrs
Caroline Thorpe 5 yrs
Kathleen Thorpe 3 yrs
Alphonso Thorpe 1 yr
*Arthur transcribed as 17 yrs
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My post crossed with yours.
I see that Beatrice claimed to be married in the 1881 census (if, as seems very likely, this is her).
But as usual one answer creates several questions.
- what happened to Charles Chaplin?
- if he died, who is the Charles Chaplin in the workhouse?
- why did she revert to McClure?
- where and when did she marry Samuel McClure?
- what happened to Samuel?
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Yes a lot more questions.
It's all out of order with her surnames isn't it. She married as Buchanan to Chaplin but then reverts to McClure to marry Thorpe.
Where was the child she had with Samuel born?
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The child wasn't Samuel's. James Buchanan was born in Edinburgh on 9 December 1873, and on his birth certificate Beatrice is described as 'widow of Samuel McClure, Band Serjeant 14th Regiment of Foot'. At least I think it's 14th - it's unclear.
I have not found the marriage in England, Ireland, Scotland or Wales, and I have not found Samuel's death, let alone any other information about him.
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The child wasn't Samuel's
Why don't you think he was the father? The part about her being his widow may not have been true but he could still have fathered her child.
The 1881 marriage to Charles Thorpe describes her as a widow. There are some details of the marriage on ancestry you may have now seen.
As an aside I wonder what they were all doing in Scotland when born in London :-\
Charles and Beatrice and her parents I mean.
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I have not found the marriage in England, Ireland, Scotland or Wales, and I have not found Samuel's death, let alone any other information about him.
There is a Samuel Mclure born 1849 in Edinburgh in 1861.
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The child wasn't Samuel's
Why don't you think he was the father? The part about her being his widow may not have been true but he could still have fathered her child.
Because Samuel was not named as the father on the birth certificate - he space for the father's name is blank.
The 1881 marriage to Charles Thorpe describes her as a widow. There are some details of the marriage on ancestry you may have now seen.
Thank you. I don't subscribe to Ancestry.
As an aside I wonder what they were all doing in Scotland when born in London :-\
Charles and Beatrice and her parents I mean.
Beatrice's parents were both born in Scotland. They were married in Scotland and their eldest child was born in Scotland. In 1841 James Buchanan was a tailor's journeyman. In 1851 he is described as a sergeant in the Metropolitan Police. In 1861, when they were in Woolwich, he is described as 'corporal military man'. I have yet to find him in the 1871, but in 1881 he was living in Glasgow, and described as a tailor. His wife Margaret, born in Edinburgh, died in Glasgow in 1891, and James himself, born in Ayr, died in Glasgow later the same year. So it looks like a classic case of Scots going to London for employment, and returning to Scotland later in life.
What is more curious is what Charles Chaplin was doing In Scotland. Perhaps he just went there long enough to marry Beatrice, whom he had known in the south-east of England.
There is a Samuel Mclure born 1849 in Edinburgh in 1861.
Yes. He is in the home for deaf and dumb boys, having lost his hearing by a fall according to the census, which gives his place of birth as Dreghorn, Ayrshire. A Samuel McClure, aged 13, mother's maiden surname Caughy, died in Dreghorn in 1861. His parents match the 2-year-old Samuel McClure living in Dalmellington in Ayrshire in 1851, born in New Monkland, Lanarkshire.
There is no other death in the Scottish deaths index of a Samuel M*c*lu*re* who could by any stretch of the most acrobatic imagination be Beatrice's husband, unless she was lying and she wasn't a widow at all.
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Alphonso Thorpe born 1890 Woolwich area
Alphonso Thorpe died 1966 Greenwich area
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Because Samuel was not named as the father on the birth certificate - he space for the father's name is blank.
Yes but that doesn't mean he wasn't the father. He has to be the prime suspect!
My theory would be they weren't married but for decency sake she pretended to be his widow on the birth.
Either way the certificate doesn't add up because she would still be McClure widowed or not and so would the child be McClure unless he was illegitimate in which case he would be Buchanan which he is.
Thanks for the info about Scotland. I can see why she and her parents were there.
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Because Samuel was not named as the father on the birth certificate - he space for the father's name is blank.
Yes but that doesn't mean he wasn't the father.
I think it does.
In Scots law the husband of a married woman is presumed to be the father of a child unless the mother declares otherwise. The Registrar seems to have accepted her statement that she was a widow, so the default would have been to show Samuel as the father unless it was obvious he could not be because he had died long enough before the birth for the child not to be his.
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- what happened to Charles Chaplin?
- if he died, who is the Charles Chaplin in the workhouse?
Re the Charles in the workhouse (whoever he was!)
Possibly his last admission to Bromley House, Stepney Union, down the page, admitted 18 April 1898, discharged 29 Nov 1898
Is a dittoed labourer on this
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1J-S9V9-H?i=719&cat=1249964
On image 709, likely first appearance of Charles in Stepney, also admitted 18 April, in 1896. Is Chaplain here. A baker.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1J-S9KC-4?i=708&cat=1249964
So possible death might be
Sep 1899 Poplar 1c 431
Chaplain, Charles
age 68
ADDED
Sub-district for that death Bromley.
Likely it was registered near the end of July.
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That last bit helped with a burial search
Buried at City of London Cemetery, 27 July 1899
Charles Chaplain
residence Sick Asylum
age 68
(last entry on page)
https://col-burialregisters.uk/archive/burial-registers-january-1890-to-december-1899/register-054/1082604
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There is this man
1871 147/35/27
4 Little Newport Street Soho
Charles Chapman widower 38 yrs Baker Journeyman b Chelmsford
Living in a house with other bakers.
1881 586/24/42
102 York Road, Lambeth
Charles Chapman widower 48 yrs Baker b Chelmsford
Philipp Gross 30 yrs Baker b Prussia
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Sorry,
I don’t think it is him after all. I couldn't find Chapman pre 1861 but there is a marriage for Charles Chapman, Baker with a father John Chapman, Baker in 1867, Marylebone.
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Thank you both.
Mea culpa! I seem to have omitted to mention that Charles Chaplin was a widower when he married Beatrice Buchanan, so maybe there's something in that Charles Chapman.