RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Foreversearchingforanswer on Monday 27 April 20 10:10 BST (UK)
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Hi,
As the scanning of the registers only covered up to 1880, could someone kindly do a lookup for the marriage of John Tiernan and Mary Anne Markey. I would assume sometime between 1888 and early 1890, and probably in Drogheda. Interested in Johns fathers name.
Many thanks
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Have you got them in 1911 census, if both still alive it should say how long married.
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No, he died 1905. She did scratch out 21 years though. So 1889 1890.
I would trawl through the registers but scanning didn't go beyond 1880.
Neither name appears on irishgenealogy.ie for the marriage.
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....could someone kindly do a lookup for the marriage of John Tiernan and Mary Anne Markey.
Where are the registers kept?
Debra :)
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Possibly rootsireland.ie , but I'm not a member
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Is this the family
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Louth/St__Laurence_Gate/Baymore_Road/1568703/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Louth/St__Laurence_Gate/Beymore_Road/572767/
Would this Thomas be their first child in 1890?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1890/02409/1898362.pdf
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Is this the family
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Louth/St__Laurence_Gate/Baymore_Road/1568703/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Louth/St__Laurence_Gate/Beymore_Road/572767/
Would this Thomas be their first child in 1890?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1890/02409/1898362.pdf
1900 John Tiernan mmn Markey
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1900/01985/1764566.pdf
1902 Michael Tiernan mmn Markey
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1902/01890/1734649.pdf
Is this his death 19 Nov 1891, 48 Coola St.,
Thomas Tiernan age 13 months son of Labourer
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1891/06055/4726004.pdf
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Thats the family, except these
1900 John Tiernan mmn Markey
1902 Michael Tiernan mmn Markey
(this actually points to Kinsella)
which aren't.
However, I need the marriage certificate. The actual death was 1905, (and the only way I know that is through a newspaper clipping of the hearing that stated a witness was his sister-in-law, and named the witness).
The interesting thing about the childs death is the child above him died from scolds, and two on the same sheet from insanity.
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Thats the family, except these
1900 John Tiernan mmn Markey
1902 Michael Tiernan mmn Markey
(this actually points to Kinsella)
This was the link to 1902 record for Michael I thought I'd added - have edited my link
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1902/01890/1734649.pdf
both John & Michael Tiernan's address is given as Coola Street mmn Markey,
father John occ labourer is the same details as for Thomas 1890
Thomas Tiernan address on birth / death is Coolagh Street
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yes, thats him, however, its the marriage I need. Sometime between 1888 and 1890, more than likely at Drogheda.
The marriage will list his fathers name, as theres a couple of possibles for him. The death certificate doesn't list his age (its listed as 40ish as the information came from the coroner), and the census could also be incorrect age wise.
Even looking at possible brothers and sisters death certificates I cannot see him as informant.
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Sorry haven't come across a John Tiernan / Mary Anne Markey marriage ???
Do you know her parents names?
If Thomas was their first born is it a possibility he was named after John's father :-\
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1902 Michael Tiernan mmn Markey
(this actually points to Kinsella)
which aren't.
The circle by the supervisor relates to the death record below......has nothing to do with your Michael Ternan (sic) death.
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Sorry haven't come across a John Tiernan / Mary Anne Markey marriage ???
Do you know her parents names?
If Thomas was their first born is it a possibility he was named after John's father :-\
I've searched the records, but will go through each sheet to ensure it's not been badly scanned and so not recorded, or just missed. I was hoping it would appear on the parish registers, but seemingly only rootsireland.ie hold those after 1880.
I know her parents, and 7 of her 8 siblings, however, it doesn't help.
Although the names would fit with the first son, that can just be a coincidence and isn't proof.
I shall keep looking.
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Maggie Markey age 28 dtr of Simon and Catherine Garvey,Coola St
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Louth/St__Laurence_Gate/Baymore_Road/1568702/
married Thomas RIElly, Marsh Oct 1901
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1901/10327/5759577.pdf
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Louth/St__Laurence_Gate/Marsh_Road/572969/
Simon Markey and Catherine Garvey 1865
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1865/11591/8265408.pdf
Mary Anne
27
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03519/2294679.pdf
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Louth/St__Laurence_Gate/Baymore_Road/1568702/
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Louth/St__Laurence_Gate/Beymore_Road/572766/
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Thanks, but what I need to find is the marriage for John and Mary Ann Markey.
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5 July 1889, St. Mary's Drogheda.
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Many thanks for that. Any details on parents, and where was the information sourced from.
I'll check the local papers
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Many thanks for that. Any details on parents, and where was the information sourced from.
I'll check the local papers
No parents, no witnesses.
RootsIreland - from original parish registers.
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The only extra information other than the date is that the Groom's address was Dale, and the Bride Duleek St.
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Clearly not registered as expected.
July St Mary's marriages
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10741/5916779.pdf
One July one on the next page but Aug, Sept from them on.
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No, he died 1905. She did scratch out 21 years though. So 1889 1890.
I would trawl through the registers but scanning didn't go beyond 1880.
Neither name appears on irishgenealogy.ie for the marriage.
BTW it was more likely the enumerator crossed out the years married and children information as it wasn't required for widows.
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The only extra information other than the date is that the Groom's address was Dale, and the Bride Duleek St.
Duleek Street is where they lived. I'll have a look at Dale, and who was living there.
The Dales off Marsh Road in Drogheda.
Many thanks for your help.
No newspaper notices around that time either.
Strange one.
One July one on the next page but Aug, Sept from them on.
Downloaded the sequencial marriages till december for St Marys, not there.
I like a good puzzle.
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Downloaded the sequencial marriages till december for St Marys, not there.
I like a good puzzle.
Is there a gap in the numbering?
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Is there a gap in the numbering?
No, second thing I looked for, first was spelling.
82 up to 100, then back to 1, 2 etc (the 100 back to 1 is on the same sheet).
I have a suspicion he may have been St Peters, and she was St Marys, but as 19th century Catholicism isn't really a strong point of mine I don't know what difference that would make, although I would expect none.
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Perhaps deliberately not registered, if there were no witnesses?
Absence of witnesses was contrary to both civil and cannon law. May indeed have been sufficient to invalidate the supposed marriage? Strange.
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Moreso as they moved in next door to her parents, so they must have known.
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Does it say which priest officiated?
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Does it say which priest officiated?
No note as to officiant. RootsIreland usually note this if in the original.
Thinking of the original, in an unusual case like this I would certainly wish to see or get a copy of the original record.
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Does it say which priest officiated?
No note as to officiant. RootsIreland usually note this if in the original.
Thinking of the original, in an unusual case like this I would certainly wish to see or get a copy of the original record.
Agree, it sounds quite unorthodox.
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Worth following up ?
James Carroll to Jane Tiernan age 21 dtr Thomas decd of The Dale at St Mary's ,Oct 1884
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1884/10917/5988497.pdf
found 1 daughter Mary Ellen 1886 The Marsh
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02603/1961612.pdf
not obvious to me on census
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Worth following up ?
Definately, will give me something to do today. Many thanks to everyone who has looked at this. It's invaluable.
If the workhouse is in The Dales, possibly thats where John was in 1889.
As it seems the priest would send the certificate over the the registrar, it could be ommiting the fathers names on the register as well, if it was ever completed.
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Any explanation as to why 5 children, born between 1855 and 1865 were baptised in various months of 1881 ? The births are recorded in the church register.
Example
Name
John Tiernan
Mother
Elizabeth Townly
Father
James Tiernan
Other
John Boyle
Sponsor Witness 2
Anne Kiernan
Birth
14/11/1862 Duleek Meath Ireland
Baptism
16/11/1881
and
Name
Bridget Tiernan
Mother
Elizabeht Townly
Father
James Tiernan
Other
Andrew Townly
Sponsor Witness 2
Anne Darby
Birth
12/04/1855 Duleek Meath Ireland
Baptism
15/04/1881
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Where did you find those baptisms?
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I think there may have been an issue with St Mary’s marriages not being registered.
My husband’s great grandparents were also married at St Marys Drogheda in Jan 1871. We found the parish records after a while but no civil record. I even went to Dublin to check through the indexes.
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Where did you find those baptisms?
https://www.ancestrylibraryedition.co.uk/search/collections/2195/?name=john_tiernan
"Ireland, Selections of Catholic Parish Baptisms, 1742-1881"
link on ancestry, so I haven't seen the source, which is always bad.
All I know about the possible parents to this person is she died in 1871 at Bellewstown, Meath, Ireland and left her possessions to her husband.
Thought process here is go through all likely candidates and eliminate them one by one, whats left needs further investigation. I have seen a few different people down as his father, and some indication he lived to 1929 after presumably leaving his wife, travelling to the west of Ireland alone and dying there, 24 years after his death.
On the 1901 census he put all the correct ages against his wife and children, which leads to 1862 or 1863 for him, if he did his correctly as well. Death certificate has an about 40 years' date.
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Findmypast has images to Catholic Baptisms and links to the NLI films.
https://registers.nli.ie/
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I'm not on findmypast and the registers weren't scanned past 1880 on NLI unfortunately. I'm not even sure if the 1881 ones were done at Duleek or elsewhere.
The 1881 'baptisms' for all 5 is strange to me as the birth years went from 1855 to 1865 and they do appear in the registers for the birth years.
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Where did you find those baptisms?
https://www.ancestrylibraryedition.co.uk/search/collections/2195/?name=john_tiernan
"Ireland, Selections of Catholic Parish Baptisms, 1742-1881"
link on ancestry, so I haven't seen the source, which is always bad.
All I know about the possible parents to this person is she died in 1871 at Bellewstown, Meath, Ireland and left her possessions to her husband.
Thought process here is go through all likely candidates and eliminate them one by one, whats left needs further investigation. I have seen a few different people down as his father, and some indication he lived to 1929 after presumably leaving his wife, travelling to the west of Ireland alone and dying there, 24 years after his death.
On the 1901 census he put all the correct ages against his wife and children, which leads to 1862 or 1863 for him, if he did his correctly as well. Death certificate has an about 40 years' date.
Who is she?
What was the name of the person born in 1865 that these records claim was baptised in 1881?
First thing to establish is was the person born in 1865, that is see if they have a birth cert.
It could be a family converting to RC over the course of a year, or each marrying a RC so needing to be baptised RC in order to marry, or its just a messed up transcription.
That said I don't see Baptisims for the two you listed in Duleek in their birth years.
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0930
Can't use the link you posted but have you tried searching for these baptisms on Family Search?
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First thing to establish is was the person born in 1865, that is see if they have a birth cert.
It could be a family converting to RC over the course of a year, or each marrying a RC so needing to be baptised RC in order to marry, or its just a messed up transcription.
That said I don't see Baptisims for the two you listed in Duleek in their birth years.
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0930
Can't use the link you posted but have you tried searching for these baptisms on Family Search?
1871 death is Elizabeth Townley, the mother of these 5. No records apart from 'wills and testiments' (although I don't need to look at possible brothers/father/cousin etc who witnessed these as its no concern at present)
No birth certificates for any of them.
They are on Duleek | Microfilm 04181 / 03 (see attached for 2 of them)
I did the same process for the Stamullin Tiernans, but no definitive link to my lot.
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Worth following up ?
James Carroll to Jane Tiernan age 21 dtr Thomas decd of The Dale at St Mary's ,Oct 1884
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1884/10917/5988497.pdf
found 1 daughter Mary Ellen 1886 The Marsh
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02603/1961612.pdf
not obvious to me on census
Further to that marriage in October 1884 (note the Farrell witness), the following looks like Jane as the informant of her mother's death 5 months earlier:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1884/06325/4814140.pdf
So that would make Jane the daughter of Thomas and Mary Tiernan. I can see 3 baptisms (RootsIreland) in St. Mary's Drogheda for parents shown as Thomas Tiernan and Mary Farrell: Mary Anne in 1851, John in 1859, and Jane in 1862. There's an 1876 death of a 46 year old Thomas Tiernan registered Drogheda which might be a possibility.
All pretty flimsy stuff, I know...
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Somewhere here
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635160#page/1/mode/1up
I can't see the dates on those images you attached.
But if they are in the parish register on NLI than clearly they weren't baptised in 1881.
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All pretty flimsy stuff, I know...
The interesting thing about that is the address, Dale, this is where John Tiernan was listed as being in 1889 on the church register for the wedding.
The only extra information other than the date is that the Groom's address was Dale, and the Bride Duleek St.
I though though, that the only property at the Dale in Drogheda, was the workhouse.
Somewhere here
If you filter down its at the bottom of the page
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All pretty flimsy stuff, I know...
The interesting thing about that is the address, Dale, this is where John Tiernan was listed as being in 1889 on the church register for the wedding.
I though though, that the only property at the Dale in Drogheda, was the workhouse.
Look at the other entries on that (deaths) page, where it's the workhouse, it states that, but Dale gets 2 specific mentions.
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I was looking at some old maps. I shall definitely spend some time looking at this, nothing else to do for the next few months.
Many many thanks to everyone.
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Or just post a link
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635160#page/14/mode/1up
Bridget at the bottom of the page baptised on the 15 April 1855.
not the 15 April 1881. The 1881 on Ancestry is likely just something to with how the record set is on their system.
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Any explanation as to why 5 children, born between 1855 and 1865 were baptised in various months of 1881 ? The births are recorded in the church register.
Example
Name
John Tiernan
Mother
Elizabeth Townly
Father
James Tiernan
Other
John Boyle
Sponsor Witness 2
Anne Kiernan
Birth
14/11/1862 Duleek Meath Ireland
Baptism
16/11/1881
and
Name
Bridget Tiernan
Mother
Elizabeht Townly
Father
James Tiernan
Other
Andrew Townly
Sponsor Witness 2
Anne Darby
Birth
12/04/1855 Duleek Meath Ireland
Baptism
15/04/1881
Never, EVER believe **ANYTHING** on Ancestry without first checking the original records yourself.
That applies to the material transcribed by their illiterate, innumerate staff, and the contributions by the often ignorant subscribers.
Here Endeth the First Lesson.
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Never, EVER believe **ANYTHING** on Ancestry without first checking the original records yourself.
Never do. I was hoping someone may actually check the source, as I don't have access and they stopped scanning these onto NLI after the 1880 date. I was also wondering if they were confirmation records, or if the family moved there would be records of the move in the register (I don't know, so was asking).
I have so many example of total nonsense from that site, moreso on the family tree side. Even in this line people have John dying in 1929, 24 years after his accident (he must have left his wife before 1911, and travelled across Ireland to die) with several different parents for him etc etc. Proof was a newspaper clipping mentioning his sister in law testifying at the hearing.
On my direct line I have my 4th great grandfathers birth certificate as a child who died as a 3 year old (only birth certificate they could find which matched the year - they failed to look for that childs death certificate). Because one person 'found' it, that became standard for the cut and pasters (as a descendant was an influential engineer in the US). No birth certifcate actually exists, only written record was a court case from the 1780s that mentioned him and his father. That record was miscatalogued in the archive, and was found with a trawl.
I have an aunt who emigrated to Canada in the 1840s and got married there. People had the father of the child as her new husband. The only copy of the free kirk register mentions she had the child out of wedlock before she went to Canada. The kirk register is not online, again a trawl through all kirk registers in the area.
So many wrong parents and dead people and babies having babies.
I take nothing for granted.
On the current 'Dale' task at hand theres a few properties down that small street (according to the dog licences anyways) and this 1870s map. Poor house is a street further up.
Parents
Thomas Tiernan died before 1885
Mary Farrell died 9 may 1884 at the Dale, Drogheda (Jane Tiernan, Witness)
Children
Mary Ann 17 January 1851 witnesses James Long Margaret Kelly
Peter 29 March 1855 witnesses John Brady Ann Durnan
Patrick 14 May 1857 witnesses Mary Dilary ?
John 06 Jul 1859 witnesses Patrick Murphy mary ?
Jane 04 Dec 1862 witnesses Pat ? Ann ?
Married James Carroll 18 Oct 1884 (Both lived at The Dales)
Mary Ellen Carroll Born 19 May 1888 in the workhouse
Gap in 1853 which isn't in the register.
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Took out a trial of findmypast.
Johns next of kin was Mary Tiernan living at the Dale, and he was living at 48 Coola Street on discharge from the army (since 1890 and probably after his 1889 marriage).
So unless there were two Johns living at the Dale in 1889 (you have to remember his army service was 6 years, then 6 years as a reserve, so at the time of his discharge he was already married and at Coola Street), and both Johns had a mother still living called Mary and a deceased father, its the best I'm going to get.
Marys maiden name was Farrell by the way.