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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: lydiaann on Monday 27 April 20 15:47 BST (UK)
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All the following relates to Dunscore, Dumfriesshire or its environs.
1841 Agnes Paterson, aged 20, a dressmaker (and continues to be so in following censuses). Lives with Mother Agnes (nee Kirk) aged 55 and brother James, aged 20.
1851 Agnes Paterson, aged 30, living with mother Agnes, aged 66 and MARY GIBSON, aged 12 mos, noted as 'granddaughter' to head (i.e., Agnes the Elder). As Agnes had 2 brothers named Paterson, it is assumed that Mary is her daughter.
1861 Agnes Paterson, aged 40, living with 'daughter' MARY BOYES, aged 11 and son WILLIAM McConvile, aged 9 mos.
1871 Agnes Paterson, aged 50, living with 'daughter' MARION JOHNSTON, aged 21, son JOHN JOHNSTON, aged 17, and son WILLIAM CONVIEL, aged 10.
1881 Agnes Paterson, aged 60, 'Pauper, formerly seamstress' living with son THOMAS W. G. CONVILLE.
We start with Mary: starting as GIBSON, then becoming BOYES, finally moving to MARION JOHNSTON. As the ages and birthplace (Dunscore) are common through 3 censuses it is assumed they are referring to the same girl.
Next, William. Starting as McConville, then becoming CONVIEL, and finally moving to CONVILLE (as well as adding 2 forenames). I understand that, owing to enumerator and/or reporter failings, changes as close as this can happen.
Finally John, where did he suddenly appear from?
I've tried SP, FamilySearch and Ancestry for births of these 3 children to no avail. I've looked for marriage(s) for Agnes, still no answers are forthcoming.
Any clues, anyone - pretty please? It's doing my head in!! ??? ???
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I have a similar case
It was a waste of time looking for marriages
The young lady hadn't married any of them
However there were clues in baptisms birth.or marriges
which since been confirmed with distant DNA matches with same Surnames on their trees
First step have you looked for the 3 children s births under pterson single mother
Can you find any marriages for them who do they name as father ..were any men of that name around at time
Are there Kirk records of Agnes applying for maintenance from any men .
What is recorded on tjeir death certificates
I have seen a few examples of natural child of "
Agnes could have "married" a mrJohnston Between census es or be living with John as wife he.s too old to be her son too young to be Marion's father
Step son.?
Have you seen the original census or are there mistakes in the transcription ?
Good luck it's a tough one.
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I have tried looking for births in Ancestry, FamilySearch and SP. Ditto for marriages. Still searching for deaths. Marion and John and Johnston are all common names and there seem to be many entries under all for various parts of the world (yes, including Scotland!). Even under 'Conville' and McConville there are several entries for various places...and is he known as Thomas or William? The only constant seems to be Agnes and even putting her down as 'parent' under just 'Agnes' doesn't seem to raise anything significant. I think I shall close down now and come back to it tomorrow afternoon when we are supposed to get rain!
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Hi,
SP has Agnes Paterson born 30/10/1815 Holywood, Dumfries to Humphry Paterson and Agnes Kirk.
Mary Gibson Boyes born 4/5/1850 Dunscore to Alexander Boyes and Agnes Paterson.
hmcc
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I have tried looking for births in Ancestry, FamilySearch and SP. Ditto for marriages.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=825881
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=30381.0
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This looks a possible birth entry for son William who shows as born in Keir on his 1861 census entry:
William Paterson
b. 17 Jun 1860 Keir, Dumfriesshire
Mother's Name: Agnes Paterson
www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XBMW-VX1
Monica
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John Johnston's birth in Dunscore looks to have been pre 1855. Can't see anything for him in the OPRs :-\
Given he doesn't show with Agnes in 1871, there is this entry in 1861:
Elisabeth Thomson 67 plougman (as indexed) b. Wigtown, Wigtownshire
Elisabeth Thomson 11 grandchild b. Dunscore
John I Patterson 6 grandchild b. Dunscore
Address: Broadford, Dunscore
This John remains in Broadford and later marries and with family there up to 1901. Can't see him in 1871. Could he be the John Johnston with Agnes in 1871? Hard to say. From the index in 1861, looks like an I for his middle name. Later entries potentially indexed as Jas (James?).
Monica
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lydiaann, who reported Agnes's death? When did she die?
You didn't mention 1891, with Agnes and son Thomas still living together. Sure you have it but just adding for additional background here:
Agnes Paterson 76 formerly farm servant b. Holywood
Thomas W G Conville 30 general lab b. Keir
Address: Windsover, Keir
Monica
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John Johnston's birth in Dunscore looks to have been pre 1855.
Given he doesn't show with Agnes in 1871, there is this entry in 1861:
Elisabeth Thomson 67 plougman (as indexed) b. Wigtown, Wigtownshire
Elisabeth Thomson 11 grandchild b. Dunscore
John I Patterson 6 grandchild b. Dunscore
If that is a transcription, could the I be a mistranscription of J ?
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I thought that a possiblity, Forfain. One of the later censuses however shows John Jas Paterson. As always though, original images need to be checked for confirmation of details as you can't rely on the transcripts (as useful as they are for scouting around ;)).
Monica
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Hi,
There is a Johnston family at Damhouse, Dunscore in 1861 census including Marion Johnston (11) and John Johnston (6). They are similar ages as ones with Agnes Paterson in 1871 census.
hmcc
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As always, Chatters, you have excelled yourselves. It's taken me a while to sort through all the tips and advice and this is what I have found.
Forfarian: There seems to be a ton of reading in your 3 links to records of Kirk sessions etc. Thank goodness we are in 'lockdown' AND it's raining, it will give me time. Meanwhile...
hmcc: Firstly, don't know why I didn't find Mary Gibson Boyes' birth! However, all that is available seems to be the PR of baptism on 4 May 1850 (b. 30 Mar, 1849) where she is recorded as the "N.D. of Alexander Boyes and Agnes Paterson". Other births seems to be "L.D." or "L.S."...I am presuming this means 'natural' rather than 'legitimate'. I tried researching Alex'r but the only one I can find is 6 years younger than Agnes and marries an Agnes McGeorge. But thanks, hmcc, for that snippet. There is no further information on this young lady, not even in other family trees. There is no record of any marriage in the OPRs of Agnes and Alexander.
Now for William. MonicaL... Yes, I can see the birth of William Paterson to Agnes in 1860 in FamilySearch but there is no corresponding information in SP and I am confused as to why, from 9 months later he is known as William McConvle (sic), Wm Conviel, and Thomas W G Conville in the subsequent censuses. In any case, there are no birth records for the various names of this young man, nor can I find marriage or death.
Marion and John Johnston. Yes, hmcc and MonicaL again (gosh, you do work hard for other people, thanks so much!). I have found the 1861 census with both of them who are noted as the son and daughter of James (tailor) and Mary, and the one with John with his grandparents. The names are wrong entirely, there are no Johnstons in this family line so unlikely to be related to Agnes.
The more I dig and pick at this problem, the more perplexing it becomes. How can these people disappear so completely? And appear with no apparent or only very sparse records of birth etc. Even Agnes has no death record (so far). I will see what I can get from the KS records, but it seems to me that either Agnes was VERY mixed up herself, or she had been a bit of a 'goer'!!
Watch this space.
In the meantime, my gratitude to you all for you hard work. Please stay safe.
lydiaann
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Hi
You might have missed birth for William Paterson 1860 Keir, Dumfries as MonicaL already posted from family search, it is on SP too.
hmcc
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"N.D. of Alexander Boyes and Agnes Paterson". Other births seems to be "L.D." or "L.S."
Natural Daughter as opposed to Lawful Daughter, i.e. illegitimate.
[quoteI can see the birth of William Paterson to Agnes in 1860 in FamilySearch but there is no corresponding information in SP [/quote]I don't understand why not. His birth is in the index as expected. See the attached screenshot.
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Paternity Cases on Scottish Indexes regarding Mary Gibson, defender Alexander Boyes and pursuer Agnes Patterson, Damhouse, Dunscore.
https://www.scottishindexes.com/courttranscript.aspx?courtid=15030068
Damhouse was also the address for Marion and John Johnston 1861 census, may have been neighbours of Agnes.
hmcc
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What do we think? Looking likely that Marion and John Johnston were not Agnes's children, although they are listed as such in 1871?
I cannot see a death for Mary Bell/Johnston between 1861 but husband James and youngest son James are visiting their eldest daughter Margaret Johnston/Cowan in 1871:
William Cowan 23 upholsterer b. Dumfries
Maggie I Cavan 25 wife b. Dunscore
James Johnston 52 visitor, tailor b. Holywood, Dumfries
James Johnston 14 visitor b. Dunscore
Address: 23 1/2 Loreburn Street, Dumfries
John Johnston, b. 1853 to James and Mary Bell, showed as an apprentice upholsterer in Agnes's household in 1871.
Monica
Added: Have you checked the original image for the 1871 census? It may simply be that the relationship to head of household for Marion and John has been mistranscribed on the commercial transcripts.
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Even Agnes has no death record (so far).
Have you viewed and discounted this death:
Agnes Hiddlesto... Paterson
Age 75
1894 (she shows as still alive with son Thomas William in Keir in 1891)
Death in Keir
Ref 833/ 8
Only one surname showing for this registration which would indicate this Agnes was unmarried.
Monica
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Mary Gibson Boyes born 4/5/1850 Dunscore to Alexander Boyes and Agnes Paterson.
hmcc
Mary's father in the 1851 census?
www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=82202026
She is not with mother Agnes in 1871. Likely out of the home by now and working elsewhere.
Monica
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My sincere apologies for sending a couple of you up the garden path (and in this rain, too!!). Despite saying I had been hunting for Wm. Paterson's birth and couldn't find it, of course it's there. I think the fact that I had been hunting under 'Thomas Paterson' may have had something to do with it! I really am sorry about that. :'(
I've opened up the computer today to find a 'hint' on my Mary Gibson Boyes entry regarding a Paternity Decree, so will have to fork out for that to see what it says. The entry is obviously correct as it cites Alexander and Agnes as parents. However, all the picking away under their names has given a result there.
Thanks for pointing out Agnes's death...I either skimmed the pages too quickly (I had given a range of 1891-1900) or missed a page out. That little problem now solved. I wonder where the 'Hiddleston' came in? There is nothing in the forebears to suggest that that I have found...who knows. (And are we related to the rather delectable Tom Hiddleston? ??? ;D) Anyway, it is definitely Agnes's death registration.
I think I'll remove the Johnstons from the record, I cannot find anything to say that they 'belonged' to Agnes, as you say, MonicaL, I think there has been an enumerator mistake there. I have now 'purchased' the 1871 census (this one family is costing me credits galore!) and I can see that, although Agnes and William are living at the same address as Marion and John Johnston, the two pairs are actually under different schedule nos (6 & 7) and there is a thicker line dividing the two pairs. As you say, I think the enumerator made a mistake in entering them as son and daughter.
I think I have as much information as I need right now. It just remains for me to thank you all once again for such amazing help in sorting out my muddled brain. If I come across any other information once I have got the Paternity Decree, I'll let you all know.
Please, stay safe.
lydiaann
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Despite saying I had been hunting for Wm. Paterson's birth and couldn't find it, of course it's there. I think the fact that I had been hunting under 'Thomas Paterson' may have had something to do with it!
:)
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Well, well, well - yet more 'mystery'. I have just been entering the 'paperwork' for Agnes. On the birth registration of William Paterson, it shows that the birth was registered by "Mary Gibson, sister (and nurse to her mother)" Note, NOT Mary Paterson or Mary Boyes.
Then, on the death registration of Agnes, the registration details read "J. W. Gibson, son". So, on the birth registration, he is known as "William Paterson", on the 1871 Census as 'William Conviel" on the 1881 and 1891 censuses as "Thomas W. G. Conville" and on the death registration as "T. W. Gibson".
Bearing all that in mind, is he Thomas or William? And I wonder how he signed his name? Paterson, Conville or Gibson? The various documents would suggest he is Thomas William Gibson Paterson but even he must have been confused over the years!
I am having difficulty following him through from his mum's death...but I will get there! Watch this space!
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A death on SP for Thomas William Patterson (64) 1925 in Dunscore, age matches with your William Paterson.
hmcc
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Thank you, hmcc. I had noticed that late yesterday but I have to buy yet more credits (sigh!), I'm sure it's his. I think I started the death search 'too late' in his life...I had a quick look at an age range of 70+, I shall be more careful in future!
Thank you again. Stay safe!!
lydiaann
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This goes from strange to weird. The death mentioned above IS of Thomas William Gibson Patterson, died 19 Jan, 1925, aged 64 years. So far so good. Mother is Nancy?? (can Agnes become Nancy?) She was a seamstress. Correct on that one point. Then comes: Widower of Agnes Johnstone. Registered by Maggie A G Patterson, daughter. Now, the only marriage of Thomas Paterson, Engine Keeper (in a previous life he was always a general labourer) to an Agnes Johnston is in East Calder, Edinburgh on 31 Dec, 1891. However, his parents (yes, there was a dad) are noted as Adam Paterson, Fireman at Oil (?) work and Margaret Paterson, m/s Smith, deceased. So, I think I have just 'wasted' 12 credits!! (Note here: if anyone thinks this is their rellie, please PM me and I'll forward the 2 certs). I HAVE typed the Paterson/Patterson surnames faithfully, and the Johnston/Johnstone!
I still have to send for the Paternity Suit regarding his half-sister, Mary Gibson Boyes, but I cannot see that this is going to clarify too much.
I am, in fact, wondering, if we - meaning I - have followed the wrong Agnes Paterson all along; if she DID have a son called William but everything else following that Birth/Baptism notice is just plain coincidence. After all, Paterson is so common in Dumfries and Agnes is very popular as well in the whole of Scotland. If I can find Agnes's death on SP, we may have the answer when it comes to registration (after all, I do know for sure that she is the daughter of Humphrey Paterson and Agnes Kirk) as her son William will possibly be the registrant.
THIS JUST IN: Family Trees show the Thomas Paterson and his forebears coming from Midlothian, so I'm more inclined to think that I have gone down the wrong track entirely - and the Conviel/Convle/Conville matters not one jot. I think the Paternity Suit may be more help that I first thought now...again, Watch This Space ??? ???
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This goes from strange to weird. The death mentioned above IS of Thomas William Gibson Patterson, died 19 Jan, 1925, aged 64 years. So far so good. Mother is Nancy?? (can Agnes become Nancy?)
Agnes, Ann and Nancy are all first name variants. Great site to always check for variants is www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=nancy
Monica
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This looks like daughter Maggie's birth details from what you mention:
MAGGIE AGNES GI(bson?) PATTERSON
1900
816/ 26
Closeburn
Might be worth a look to check what it says about parents' and their marriage details.
There is this 1901 census entry:
Jessie Patterson 17
Maggie Patterson daughter 8 Months
Address: 9 King Street, Dumfries
Certainly potentially more twists and turns....!
Monica
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Actually, because we have now established that Thomas William GIBSON Patterson is NOT the son of 'my' Agnes (he has parents named Adam and Agnes) and is the brother of Mary Gibson Boyes Patterson, it doesn't seem worth getting more information, particularly as Maggie is the next generation down still. The original query was to 'match up' the families purported to be the Patersons that 'belonged' to my tree...I can see no relation to any of these Patersons (having gone into the original Agnes's brothers families) at all.
I hadn't realised that Agnes was a variant of Nancy - or vice versa - but I do go for variants when working with SP in particular. Who knew?
Thanks for all the help, Chatters; as always, you've all been fantastic.
Stay safe!
lydiaann
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Any Patterson's I knew in Glasgow had origins in Ulster!
Skoosh.
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Well, I have now received the Sheriff Court Entry in the matter of the Paternity Suit brought by Agnes Paterson against Alexander Boyes. He admits being the father and gets dinged fairly heavily, considering this is 1851:
£1. 11. 6d "...for the inlying expense of and attending the birth of an illegitimate female child..."
£4.0.0d per annum "...payable half-yearly in advance..." until the child attained 10 years of age
£3.10.11 1/2d (very precise!) "...of expenses OFPROCEP..."
5/- (5 shillings) "...as the expense of extracting this DECRUT and of recording of same...".
Anyone know what these 2 words mean? As I am not supposed to copy this original in any way publicly, I have had to type them out, but - having magnified the (easily legible) writing - I believe they are faithfully reproduced.
I've checked, allowing for 13,450% or thereabouts inflation and using their calculator, the amounts are:
£210.00 for the birth
£542.00 p.a. for maintenance
£474.00 for expenses
£33.88 for extract and recording.
So maintenance is cheap, as is the birth, but expenses and 'admin fees' are expensive.
It's been an interesting experiment - all for £5.00 - but still gets me nowhere in regard to Thomas aka William and where the 'Gibson', 'Conville (with all of its variations)' or 'Hiddlestone' come from.
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I think the first one is probably 'of process'. The second one is 'Decreet' which means a court judgement.
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Thanks for that, Forfarian, it certainly makes more sense.
Stay safe!
lydiaann