RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kirkcudbrightshire => Topic started by: Westozi on Sunday 03 May 20 10:59 BST (UK)
-
I'm trying to find out anything about this family prior to 1830 when they migrated to Australia. JOSEPH WILLIAM McKNOE (baptised 1798 at New Abbey to parents William Mcnoe and Janet Maxwell) He went to West Australia in 1830 with his wife Elizabeth and two children (William b 1825 and Jessie b 1828) apparently one of four labourers sponsored by Thomas Peel. I know it's before official registrations started but I'm hoping to unearth a marriage between Joseph William McKnoe and Elizabeth.
On a document entitled "Friends of Battye Library", Elizabeth's name is given as (?Howe). Many family trees have her as being born about 1808 in Carlisle Cumberland (parents Joseph Howe and Jane Irving).
However it has occurred to me that (?Howe) just might be a misinterpretation of McKnoe or McKnow. A marriage record would prove what Elizabeth's surname was - if one can be found!
-
Black has this as MacNoah, a very rare Galloway surname. Origin, Noah the abbot of Kingarth in Bute d.789. Several noted in Dumfries, McNoe, McKnoe, M'Noe & a James M'Noah in Barsalloch, Wigton, 1790. Trotter in his "Galloway Gossip!" doesn't list this name at all.
Bests,
Skoosh.
-
Do you know where the children were born?
-
The New Abbey MIs have a few M*No* listed. Do you have anything on Joseph's ancestors?
Sorry - I see you have his parents ! I'll do some more checks.
-
Have you got the marriage/Proclamation for Joseph's parents :
New Abbey 16 Oct 1791 William McNo and Janet Maxwell
Gadget
-
Marriage maybe
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGY9-V1KL
25 June 1825, Great Torrington Devon - Licence record. Both listed as over 21.
Gadget
-
The above was the licence. The parish entry has them marrying 13 July 1825. Joseph is described as a Sojourner (i.e. temporary resident). Both signed. Witnesses were John Barrow and John Harper.
I'll check for chldren's baptisms.
Gadget
-
Baptism Great Torrington, Devon
20 August 1826 William James Milroy McKnoe - parents Joseph and Elizabeth. Joseph listed as a hawker.
Gadget
-
Baptism Great Torrington, Devon
2 May1830 Jenet McKnoe - parents Joseph and Elizabeth McKnoe. Joseph a tea dealer.
Gadget
-
Also and addtion to the March/April bpts.
Baptism Great Torrington, Devon
26 April 1830 Mary Ann Macknoe. Parents -Joseph and Elizabeth. Joseph listed as Tea Dealer.
I wonder if Jenet and Mary Ann were twins.
Gadget
-
Sadly
Burial Great Torrington, Devon
28 Sept 1831 Mary Macknoe. Aged 1
Gadget
-
Have you got this death:
Western Australia, 1861. Elizabeth McKnoe, aged 58.
Reg No. 1899
Gadget
(Hello Skoosh - it's getting lonely on this thread!)
-
I see that son William James Milroy Macknoe married Elizabeth Malvina King in Western Australia in 1854.
This matches the Great Torrington baptism and, hence, his parents' marriage.
Gadget
-
You're doin fine Gadget! nice work. ;D
Skoosh.
-
Thanks, Skoosh :)
This looks like a poss for Elizabeth Howe's baptism
Wear Giffard, Devon ( near Great Torrington)
Baptism 22 July 1804, Elizabeth Howe. Parents - Richard and Mary
Gadget
-
A map of the location of the Devon places, mentioned above:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01pev/
It looks as if Joseph could have travelled by sea from Kirkcudbright to the North Devon coast. Sea journeys using the Irish sea were fairly common in those days. My 3 x greats travelled that way from Kirkcudbright to the Dee estuary in Cheshire.
Gadget
-
Thank you Skoosh and Gadget. You are both wonderful!!
That's all great information for me to assimilate! Unfortunately I can't access that link to LDS Family Search. Yes, I have Elizabeth's death - I have most if not all the information in Western Australia on the family. How fascinating that they seem to have ended up in Devon. William James Milroy McKnoe was born in Devon. How interesting! Wow! Probably Jenet and Jessie are the same person. I'll have to do more research on Thomas Peel. Maybe he came from Devon?! (That's the person who sponsored the family to West Australia).
Ann
-
A bit more
Huntshaw, Devon
Marriage 15 July 1795
Richard Howe of the parish of Wear Gifford, husbandman and Mary Young of this parish. By banns
Both signed. Witnesses - Thomas How and Richard Lashbrook
Gadget
(I could do some more searches if you'd like but I don't like going on and on without finding out if you want to do some investigations yourself :) )
-
I'm just thrilled to bits with what you've found. It explains why I could find nothing of Elizabeth in Cumbria then, heh!! Would love it if somehow you could give me a copy of the marriage of Joseph and Elizabeth? I'll have to add all these bits to my family tree tomorrow. Off to bed now but thanks a million.
Stay safe
Ann
-
If you PM me an e-mail, I can send the docs.
I'm in the middle of cleaning the shopping at the moment so it will be our evening!
:)
-
Sorry I didn't reply to your last post. I have sent you a PM.
By the way, once in Western Australia Elizabeth (nee Howe) had a daughter she named Mary Elizabeth in 1847. Many of our ancestors seemed to have used the name of a child who had died
-
Will send shortly.
So only the one son and thus no Richard. They seem to have followed a naming convention
First son - paternal grandfather (William) - do you know from where the James Milroy names came from?
First daughter - maternal grandmother - Mary (who died) ) twins
Second daughter - paternal grandmother - Janet/Jenet/Jessie/Jane )
Third daughter - mother and repeat of maternal grandmother - Mary Elizabeth
A second son probably would have been called Richard
Richard
-
This looks interesting - James Milroy
1841 Barnstaple. Devon (to the North of Great Torrington)
HO107/203/3/6/6
James Milroy, 40, Tea Dealer b. Scotland
The rest of family were born Devon, apart from 2 other males who were servants , born Scotland. James's wife was named Mary Ann: not uncommon but interesting.
Gadget
-
Very interesting. Everyone had wondered where the Milroy came from. My other Scottish family, even though they were scattered over Scotland, England and Australia, still managed to give their children names from people who married into the family, even whole names sometimes, not just surnames and I'm assuming that's how the Milroy got there!
Fascinating that James Milroy, tea dealer, that you found!
The names make so much sense when you outline it the way you have done. Jenet (so pretty) just another version of Janet.
One thing that now puzzles me, do you think the parents would register William James Milroy McKnoe and sister Jessie's births in Scotland as well as in Devon? Because it seems to be what happened.
-
Have you got the details of the two baptisms in Scotland: date, place and names as listed? Also, did you have Mary Ann listed in the baptisms ?
-
No, sorry, can't find it now. Maybe it was just other Trees had put that info in by mistake assuming they had been born in Scotland
-
I've had a good look but can't find anything fro them using the widest searches.
I'll send you the Devon baptism and burial records of the three children.
-
One thing that now puzzles me, do you think the parents would register William James Milroy McKnoe and sister Jessie's births in Scotland as well as in Devon? Because it seems to be what happened.
As these children were born before the start of civil registration, they could not possibly have registered them in either Devon or Scotland. And when civil registration did start, births had to be registered in the district where they took place.
However there would be nothing to prevent parents having a child born in England or elsewhere and baptised in Scotland. I have found a couple of examples of this happening, but in both cases the (Scottish) parish register made it clear that the child was not born in the parish where it was baptised.
Here's an example: 1822, July. William Wyllie Esquire, late of London but a native of this town, and Martha Morrison his spouse, had their child's name registered called William Morrison Wyllie born the 12th day of December one thousand eight hundred and twenty at Aix Department of Bouches du Rhône in France when his birth is duly registered in the Books of the Commune, and baptised at Forfar on the 20th current by the Reverend John Skinner, Clergyman of the Episcopal Chapel of the place. [Forfar Parish Register]
On the other hand, what evidence is there that these McKnoe children were baptised in Scotland? There are no such baptisms in the old parochial registers, and if they were baptised in Devon, there would be no need for them to be baptised again. It looks to me as if someone has just assumed they were baptised in Scotland, without actually finding any evidence that they were.
Unfortunately I can't access that link to LDS Family Search.
Could that be because you have not registered to use the FamilySearch web site? It's free to use but you now have to register.
Probably Jenet and Jessie are the same person.
it will be. The names Janet and Jessie are totally interchangeable in Scotland.
Elizabeth's name is given as (?Howe). Many family trees have her as being born about 1808 in Carlisle Cumberland (parents Joseph Howe and Jane Irving).
It looks from the information found by Gadget as if that is another bit of sloppy research, published in one tree and then given spurious credibility by being copied by lots of other people.
Never believe anything you find online unless it is an image of an original document - and even then be wary as even original documents may contain mistakes. In particular, do not trust online family trees.
-
Forfarian - do please read my earlier posts. I have given details of the baptisms and have viewed the images and sent them to Ann.
I have also been able to get hold of the FS marriage licence and also sent it.
I do wish you would read threads. You have a tendency to not read what has already been posted.
You may mean to help but your posts often confuse rather than clarify.
Gadget
-
I did read it all. None of the questions I commented on had been specifically answered in later posts.
-
Thank you Forfarian, I appreciate your help
-
Westozi, do you have records show that Elizabeth and the children came out in 1830?
Or might they have come out after Mr McNoe was established in WA?
I am researching the life of my ancestor Emma Mould, a servant who came to WA on the Cygnet in 1832-33. She made friends with someone travelling in steerage with her: a "Mrs Elizabeth Mc Noe," who had two children with her. I'd like to know more about Emma's relationships so I'd be gratified if you could tell me it's the same woman.
Here's a transcription of the notice that was in The Perth Gazette, Saturday 2 Feb 1833:
IMMIGRATION. 1832/33. On the CYGNET. Departed Portsmouth 19 Sep 1832, Arrived Swan River, 27 Jan 1833
SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE. Arrival the 27 Ultimo. The Cygnet, Captain John Rolls from London ; left Portsmouth the 19th Sept., Cabin Passengers, - Mr. and Mrs. Harris, and six children ; - Messrs Barnard Clarkson, Lenox Bussell, two Miss Bussell's, Mrs. Luke Leake, Miss Kingham, Mr. Shenton, Mr. Robert Souper. Steerage-Messrs. John Hardey, Charles Clarkson, Edward Sears, Mr. and Mrs. Kingsford, and daughter, Messrs. George Coldstock, Edward Hodgson, H. C. Harris, George Gladman, William Walker, Edward Powel, George Lagenby, E. Mc Noe, and two children. Servants to Mr Harris, Meloy, Swine, Ann Hunt, Servants to Mr. Bussell, Phobe Bower, Emma Mould. Vessels lying in Gages Roads. -The Cornwallis-The Thistle-The Jolly Rambler, and Cygnet.
-
Sorry elizabethsarah, it doesn't look as if I've replied to you. Yes, that would be "my" Elizabeth McKnoe (several spelling versions of her name). Her husband came out to Australia in 1830, she and her children William and Jessie followed in 1833 on board the Cygnet. Source: Friends of Battye Library. I have seen that advertisement you mention about Shipping Intelligence. I think it comes from the Perth Gazette of 2 February 1833. I know nothing about Emma Mould.
Regards
Ann