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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: pharmaT on Sunday 10 May 20 09:00 BST (UK)
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If you had a time machine what would you change to make modern research easier.
I would: 1. Have made census enumerators be more specific than Ireland/Scotland/England etc as place of birth for people who'd moved to around.
2. For occupation they would have to say where eg miner would say which pit they worked in at the time of the census/registration
3. Scotland to keep the 1855 style certificates where parents place of birth was recorded on their children's birth certificates.
Disclaimer: I know there's no such thing as a time machine. I know the records that exist are what they are and we have to work with them (I have done for over 20 years), I know even if we could go back I would not have the power to change the above. However I am human and I am prone to having a few wistful moments when I think what if....
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Oh yes! I would definitely like to have more details like this.
My DNA test indicates my Irish ancestors came from Monaghan. I have found a baptism in a record at an Alnwick Church, Northumberland, which backs this up - as it records a Great x 2 Grandfather as from 'Monaghan'. So nice fit. On census they are just from 'Ireland'. However, another baptism has same named ancestor from 'Lock Gilley' in Ireland. As far as I have been able to find out there is no such place but there is a Loughgilley which can be pronounced as Lock Gilley.
I would also have liked the marriage place to have been recorded for martied couples on the census. This would be a huge help. :)
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Oh yes! I would definite like to have more details like this.
My DNA test indicates my Irish ancestors came from Monaghan. I have found a baptism in a record at an Alnwick Church, Northumberland, which backs this up - as it records my Great x 2 Grandfather as from 'Monaghan'. So nice fit. On census they are just from 'Ireland'. However, another baptism has same named ancestor from 'Lock Gilley' in Ireland. As far as I have been able to find out there is no such place but there is a Loughgilley which can be proniunced as Lock Gilley.
I would also have liked the marriage place to have been recorded for martied couples on the census. This would be a huge help. :)
Oh yes that's a good one. Every opportunity for cross referencing I like that.
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Yes --- HG Wells has a lot to answer for... However the film did show the good and bad side of Time Travel as did the book..
It did not stop me wishing to go back - I am a bit of a dreamer -- and often as I fall asleep imagine the night will be spent checking things out ... from previous times.. Its funny and you can all laugh -- I often wake with good strong feelings of resolution -- yep insanity... but hey too late to change now.
xin
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It would be very helpful if all parish registers were in the Dade or Barrington style. :)
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Also, really pushing the boat out and extending the census paperwork no doubt - I would like to have recorded the known parents of any adult in a household. Not just Fathers as on marriage records. I have a great x 2 Grandmother supposedly born around 1829. I know name of her Father (i believe) but only suspect name of her Mother. I think this ancestor may have been born earlier around 1826 but may have reduced age gap to fit that of my Great x 2 Grandfather. She mostly just keeps to being a year older than him but I do think she may have been four years older from a baptism I have found. So it would help if Mother's name was on census to support or refute my suspicions.
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Excuse my ignorance but what are those styles mentioned?
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Excuse my ignorance but what are those styles mentioned?
They contain much much more than the average PR but sadly dates and areas covered are limited.
I am having problems with searching on my iPad at the moment, so can’t provide links to websites giving more information.
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Excuse my ignorance but what are those styles mentioned?
The Revered William Dade back in the mid 1700s foresaw the need for a lot of information on the records but they gradually died out because it was too much work for the clergy. Scottish records are probably the closest still around.
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An example of a Dade Register baptism ;D Luckily I have more than a few of these from where my Archbell families lived = Tadcaster.
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Also, really pushing the boat out and extending the census paperwork no doubt - I would like to have recorded the known parents of any adult in a household. Not just Fathers as on marriage records. I have a great x 2 Grandmother supposedly born around 1829. I know name of her Father (i believe) but only suspect name of her Mother. I think this ancestor may have been born earlier around 1826 but may have reduced age gap to fit that of my Great x 2 Grandfather. She mostly just keeps to being a year older than him but I do think she may have been four years older from a baptism I have found. So it would help if Mother's name was on census to support or refute my suspicions.
I think I've been spoilt with having such a high proportion of Scottish ancestors as both parents are named on not just birth but death and marriage certificates.
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I would have the 1841 census make people not born in county of residence to state the county of birth.
I would also change it so that civil registration began in 1800 instead of 1837.
Luckily the Dade registers gave place of origin for my ancestor, proving my suspected Scottish links thanks to the Scottish surname.
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If I could, I would stop the fire at the PRO at the Four Courts in Dublin on the 30th June 1922.
Regards
Chas
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It would be very helpful if all parish registers were in the Dade or Barrington style. :)
Excuse my ignorance but what are those styles mentioned?
Ooh RTL ;D as a north-easterner you should know all about Barrington entries ;D
Shute Barrington was Bishop of Durham between 1791 and 1826.
For the genealogist, demographer and historian, however, the memorable gift of Bishop Shute Barrington was his introduction of a detailed format for parish registers, along the lines of the pioneer work of William Dade in the neighbouring diocese of York, but in a more manageable format. From 1798 until the national introduction of printed register books in 1812, baptism registers in the diocese of Durham were required to include the child’s date of birth, the mother’s maiden name and the parishes in which both parents were born as well, as the number of the child in the family. Details of fathers of illegitimate children were recorded with similar zeal. Imagine the genealogist’s joy to discover a ‘stray’ entry such as this from the Bishop’s Transcripts of St Nicholas, Durham City:
Sarah Parkin, born 28 March 1812, baptised 12 May, daughter of William Parkin, Private Soldier in the 1 Regt of Lancashire Militia & Sarah his wife late Weeks of Surrey
https://debrettancestryresearch.com/bishop-shute-barrington-and-the-english-parish-register/
Those of us with ancestors here in the north-east owe him a considerable debt. I have even seen some Barrington baptism entries where the parents of the parents were mentioned!
Whenever I go to Auckland Castle (and I hope it won't be that long before I can go again :-\ ) I go to look at his portrait and give him my hearty thanks
https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/shute-barrington-17341826-bishop-of-durham-17911826-43613
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Excuse my ignorance but what are those styles mentioned?
The Revered William Dade back in the mid 1700s foresaw the need for a lot of information on the records but they gradually died out because it was too much work for the clergy. Scottish records are probably the closest still around.
Poor things! Looking at Victorian and a bit earlier records, many vicars only had one parish to look after and seemed to have a curate to help them too. Many small rural parishes had only a handful of baptisms, marriages and burials per months. And I've seen some where the curate has conducted most of those services. What was the vicar busy doing?
Some couldn't even be bothered to record the name of the mother of the child being baptised, probably recovering from the birth so not there or not important.
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I guess we expect too much with genealogy at times, and wish we could change history, so as to smash down the brickwalls. But as Peter Jones said on Dragon's Den "I like a challenge". It got me thinking as well, if it was all handed to us on a silver platter, it would not be as fun. Nothing more rewarding than finding a document listing at least 2 generations.
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Oh yes, please, can I get aboard the Time machine and organise a few changes. ... I'd have loved Irish ancestors to have had to state their EXACT birthplace in Ireland - and religion, possibly even place of baptism would have been a huge help, too! I suppose it'd have been far too optomistic to hope that they'd be persuaded to name their non-resident parents, too, but..... I can dream, can't I?
In the 1841 census I'd have liked relationships stated within the household ... okay, we know from later censuses they're not always accurate.
Brilliant idea, a time machine, PharmaT
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If I could, I would stop the fire at the PRO at the Four Courts in Dublin on the 30th June 1922.
Regards
Chas
Agreed, I would also like to reverse the decision to destroy the 1861 and 1871 Ireland censuses and to pulp the 1881 and 1891 Ireland censuses during WW1 - what a waste. :(
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I would also stop the destruction of the Irish 1851 census, then I can find my army ancestor on it.
And make anyone who owned any property whatsoever to be required to leave a will, thus helping us researchers out.
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Okay, when are we going to start building that time machine?
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I would request a law to be passed that anyone leaving Ireland at the time of the potato famine to come to England or to go to America, should fill out a form giving their names, ages, occupation and accurate place of birth, not just "Ireland" and their destination...some of mine are impossible to track down ::)
Carol
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Okay, when are we going to start building that time machine?
When the manufacturers come out of lock-down and get the workforce safely back into production ;) ;D ;D
Carol
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Of course! That's all that's stopping us, isn't it?
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I did mention how civil reg should have started in 1800, but if it was to be kept at 1837 I would have it enacted that death certs for England and Wales gave birthplace and parents names, so as to help any future family inheritance disputes even for ones who died intestate. That case I could get the birthplace and parents names of James Smith who died in 1849 in Oxford, and was not born in county in 1841. Ditto for Sarah Bradford who died just weeks prior to the 1851 census. She should have soldiered on through the night of 30th March 1851, be comfy in her Marylebone workhouse bed and answer the enumeration schedule, and then died peacefully on the early morning on 31st March 1851 at least. ;D
The above exact birthplaces and parents name would also help the many English and Welsh people of Irish ancestry.
Marriage certs to also give mothers name and maiden surname.
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If I could have a time machine, I`d like to stop at 1901 census and ask my gt grandfather where he is and why did he desert his family.
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Marriage certs to also give mothers name and maiden surname.
They have done in Scotland since they began in 1855.
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Marriage certs to also give mothers name and maiden surname.
They have done in Scotland since they began in 1855.
Good idea of them to have done so, helps Scots with their ancestors, or those with Scots blood. My Scottish ancestor moved to England circa 1760, so long before civil reg. Luckily he lived a long age and remarried later in life, enough to see the Barrington registers (as mentioned before) for Co Durham, for his children, saying "son of John Stewart, a native of Selkirk, Scotland".
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Marriage certs to also give mothers name and maiden surname.
They have done in Scotland since they began in 1855.
Good idea of them to have done so, helps Scots with their ancestors, or those with Scots blood. My Scottish ancestor moved to England circa 1760, so long before civil reg. Luckily he lived a long age and remarried later in life, enough to see the Barrington registers (as mentioned before) for Co Durham, for his children, saying "son of John Stewart, a native of Selkirk, Scotland".
It makes cross referencing and double checking easier. 1855 Scottish birth certificates also had the place of birth of each parent, unfortunately they dropped that from later ones.
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I think I would ensure that all registers were completed using BLOCK CAPITALS to reduce the amount of time taken to decypher them.
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The scots Certs are absolutely the best... but we musn't forget that they also rely on the informant having correct details of the deceased :) sometimes this can be wrong ... Just a reminder. double check is best..
xin
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The scots Certs are absolutely the best... but we musn't forget that they also rely on the informant having correct details of the deceased :) sometimes this can be wrong ... Just a reminder. double check is best..
xin
Oh I know, but it gives you something to work with, somewhere to start with your research. I have explained before about my grt grt Grandfather. He named a man, John on his marriage certificate as his father. When his FIL registered his death he gave the same name. My research proved that this man could not possibly be his father. However that work helped me find out a lot about his Mum's (my 3xgrt Grandmother's life).
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No, believe it or not I have never heard of Dade or Barrington, Jen. However, I am grateful to them now that I know they were responsible for a more detailed format. :) ;)
If I had a time machine I would also make it compulsory for School registers to be more detailed. My illegitimate Grandmother has 'Harrogate' down as her previous school in her South Shields school admission. I suspect she went to live there for a time with her birth Mother who had settled there after marriage for a time. So it would have helped if the name of the school in Harrogate had been given and also my Grandmother's previous address. This would have helped nail things.
I have another ancestor with 'left the area' at one point in the school admissions. He then returned. None of the other siblings 'left the area' so it would have been much more helpful if the entry had been less vague about where he had gone and why. ???
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Sadly, even today, with all the records kept, many schools only find out that a child has "left the area", and it is not known where they went to.
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And sometimes records got more basic the more recent they got. It is easier to trace possible fathers of illegitimate children before the 1834 act than after, same for the Barrington and Dade registers ending when printed standardised formats became the norm for parish registers in 1813.
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Sadly, even today, with all the records kept, many schools only find out that a child has "left the area", and it is not known where they went to.
When my Daughter was in P1 we moved so I moved her schools. I went in and told the teacher, backed it up with a letter and then on her last day I reminded them that it was her last day. It was a Friday and she started her new school on the Monday. On the Wednesday of that week I was called by the old school to say that she had not appeared that morning and no one had called in to say she was sick or anything. So not good record keeping there. She's now in High School and the teacher completes an electronic register. Five times I've had a text saying that she is missing from school. Each time I have called the school back, 4 of those times I've been told she's definitely not there. Once i was so worried that after calling, texting messaging her and her friends I called the police. Each time she was in school, in the class she was supposed to be in. Record keeping is definitely not getting better.
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Googling ancestors names can be helpful, despite the highly irritating "Did you mean".
If I had a time machine I'd also have passenger lists to and from the UK be kept from 1600.
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If I had a time machine I'd also have passenger lists to and from the UK be kept from 1600.
Also airline passenger lists. I have dozens of people who disappear from one place and turn up a thousand miles away.
Regards
Chas
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I would go back to Belgium, 14th April, 1918 and find out where Muriel's Great Uncle, Frederick Bruce's (291830 Gordon Highlanders) remains were located, so we could take them home to Skene churchyard, to be with his mother and the rest of the family.
I lost no family members in WW1 or WW11.
Malky
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As a final thing I would go back and ask how ancestors with a rare surname connected to ones listed in records further back which seem to skip 2 or 3 generations.
For instance a Thesius Soap born circa 1690 in Suffolk (estimated age from marriage date, but cannot find a baptism), and how/if he connects to a Thesius Soap born 1590 in Suffolk (whose ancestors open up a gateway). But you had to try and fll the 2 or so generations inbetween.
I have a John Dister born c1580 in Suffolk, and there was an Allen Dister who died in 1537 in Lavenham. How and if the two of the connect is a mystery.
Same with my ancestor John Coggeshall born c1582 who was Mayor of Orford, Suffolk. The Heralds College says he was the son of Roger Coggeshall of Fornham St Martin. A Roger Coggeshall died in 1541 in that village, but you have to bridge the gap on how he related to later members.
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I would love to see more information about occupations recorded on parish registers to help with our pre-1837 research.
It's great when you come across some older registers which record as much information as possible - for example, I've got some from the late 1700s which include the mother's maiden name on baptisms. And then on the flip side, some burial registers are just a list of names, no ages or anything, so I guess my best use of the time machine is to get some extra information on those records!
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Since I can only have one although there are quite a few deceased direct ancestors I want to ask questions, I would ask my g g grandfather where he was born who his parents were and where is wife was born and who her parents were. The reason is I am dealing with the names Johnson and Brown in the Tynemouth area
:)
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If you had a time machine what would you change to make modern research easier.
I would: 1. Have made census enumerators be more specific than Ireland/Scotland/England etc as place of birth for people who'd moved to around.
2. For occupation they would have to say where eg miner would say which pit they worked in at the time of the census/registration
3. Scotland to keep the 1855 style certificates where parents place of birth was recorded on their children's birth certificates.
Disclaimer: I know there's no such thing as a time machine. I know the records that exist are what they are and we have to work with them (I have done for over 20 years), I know even if we could go back I would not have the power to change the above. However I am human and I am prone to having a few wistful moments when I think what if....
If I had a time machine, I am afraid I would have to whiz between the past and the present to ensure any change I made did not have unexpected consequences.
Imagine if it was possible to do as in 1. above (1. Have made census enumerators be more specific than Ireland/Scotland/England etc as place of birth for people who'd moved to around.) and that stopped an ancestor moving and finding their husband or wife), I might not even be born (alright you lot at the back I know you think that would not be a bad thing) ;)
Perhaps I am going too deep here but every action has a reaction and we could set off many unexpected events by meddling.
Cheers
Guy
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YEP
For every 'singular' action - There are ........ 'Re-actions'
xin
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Guy, if you go back to my OP you will see that I added a disclaimer that this was more a wishful thinking regarding what information we wished was available in records not something that I thought was actually possible. HTH
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Guy, if you go back to my OP you will see that I added a disclaimer that this was more a wishful thinking regarding what information we wished was available in records not something that I thought was actually possible. HTH
Yes I did note that which is why I wrote "Perhaps I am going too deep here".
I would also ask do you really think if I had a time machine I would be flipping between the past and the present to see if my meddling had caused any change, no! I would be checking some facts and laying huge bets at the bookies to even consider what my meddling in the past may do.
Cheers
Guy
PS this is more feeble humor before anyone bothers to post anything
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The term "gateway ancestor" may one day apply not just to gentry, nobility and royalty but to us members here who have spent years researching their ancestors. Our great, and great, great grandhcildren may start doing their tree and find each of us, and find a torrent of ancestors going back to the 1600s and further back.
I'd make sure all baptisms gave a mothers maiden name, right from 1538, so as to keep track on things in case of inheritance disputes and general mix ups of people in the parish of the same name.