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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Essex => England => Essex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Robincrook on Sunday 10 May 20 16:55 BST (UK)
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1873 Marriage Registration Dec Qtr
William James=Emma Double Colchester Vol 4a Page 554
William was 23 and Emma 19
Indications are that William's father is George and mother Harriett but I cant find the family in any Census's that I can see post 1851! Perhaps someone has access to parish registers that may find Thomas and Harriett's marriage! Really frustrated! Anyone? Thankyou Robin.
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You cant work solely from a marriage and marriage district.
Is he consistent with age in census?
What birthplace does he give?
What's his occupation?
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That marriage has his father as George James.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7KZL-HV2M
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There is a baptism of a William James in Tendring Essex on 12 Jan 1850 - mother Harriet James. It's not conclusive of course - but if that is your William, then he was illegitimate. Harriet may have then married and the family subsequently shown under her husband's surname.
However as James was William's actual surname - he should have married under that name.
This is supposition at the moment as I haven't checked for a marriage of Harriet.
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Really sorry my massive mistake it is George who is the father not Thomas... was rushing it! ::)
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Could this be the birth / death of the William son of Harriet
Births Mar qtr 1850
James William
Tendring 12 290
Deaths Sep qtr 1850
JAMES William age 0
Tendring 12 164
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Could well be Rosie.
There is a single Harriet James, aged 25 born Tendring -- who is a lodger in Great Coggleshall on the 1851 census -- but no child is with her (or is not declared anyway).
This baptism in 1850 then could be a possible red herring.
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In one census William James is said to be fishmonger born Bristol.... I've tended to dismiss it but if James born in Tendring is not the right one then perhaps Bristol is where we should be heading! :-[
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William James, 10, born Bristol, in 1861 census
Parents George and Sarah
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7KS-89P
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That marriage has his father as George James.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7KZL-HV2M
A little more info from marriage transcription
William James
Residence Golden Hill
Marriage 15 Oct 1873 Essex Colchester, St Giles
Spouse Emma Double Spouse's marital status S
Father George James occupation Lath Splitter
Spouse's George Double occupation labourer
Essex Record Office
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Robin -- where did you obtain the information that William's mother was named Harriet (or variant) please?
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In one census William James is said to be fishmonger born Bristol.... I've tended to dismiss it but if James born in Tendring is not the right one then perhaps Bristol is where we should be heading! :-[
For info. for anyone else looking
1891c Brook Street, St James, Colchester, Essex
William James Head 1849 Bristol, Gloucestershire, fishmonger
Emma Wife 1854 Colchester, Essex
William Son 1877 Colchester
Elizabeth Dau 1879 Colchester
Emma Dau 1881 Colchester
Edward Son 1883 Colchester
1881c Vineyard Street, Colchester St Botolph, Colchester, Essex,
William James Head 1851 Great Clacton, Essex, labourer
Emma Wife 1857 Colchester, Essex
William Son 1877 Colchester
Elizabeth Dau 1879 Colchester
William James, 10, born Bristol, in 1861 census
Parents George and Sarah
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7KS-89P
details from the above 1861c link
George James Lodger 30 Bristol
Sarah James Wife. 31 Bristol
Elizabeth James Daughter 12 Bristol
William James Son 10 Bristol,
John James Son 4 Bristol
Does anyone else think this might be the christening for Elizabeth James
from the above 1861 census ?
Elizabeth James 4 Mar 1849
Bristol, St Philip and Jacob, Gloucestershire
parents George & Sarah
her possible birth registration from GRO indexes
Elizabeth JAMES mmn HAZELL
1849 M Quarter in BRISTOL Volume 11 Page 177
If it is the correct Elizabeth James from 1861 census posted it looks as if her brother William might be registered as George William :-\
George William JAMES mmn HAZELL
1851 S Quarter in BRISTOL Volume 11 Page 183
Although I haven't found a matching birth entry mmn Hazell for their brother John James born c 1857 Bristol ???
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George William JAMES mmn HAZELL
1851 S Quarter in BRISTOL Volume 11 Page 183
Then this marriage might be a problem? :(
Same year as the one in Colchester :)
29 Aug 1873, St Thomas, Bristol
George William James, 21, Bachelor, Labourer, father George James, Railway Porter
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Ellen Jane Lisk, 20
In 1861 George had no occupation given.
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Then this marriage might be a problem? :(
29 Aug 1873, St Thomas, Bristol
George William James, 21, Bachelor, Labourer, father George James, Railway Porter
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Ellen Jane Lisk, 20
I think that chap was from Binegar in Somerset, son of George and Ann. And is living there later with his wife Ellen (born Glastonbury 1854).
Sigh of relief. For now...
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Emma James born Clacton widowed and in the Colchester workhouse in 1901.
Possible death of husband
Dec 1899 Colchester 4a 406
James, William
age 50
But nothing there suggests he might be George William born Bristol 1851.
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Essex Standard, 28 Oct 1899
Interments at Colchester Cemetery.—
For the week ending Friday, October 27;—
includes...William James, St. Botolph, 50 years
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Thankyou jonw65, that looks very promising! I will follow it up! Many thanks! Robin
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Gosh - this has moved on since I was last here!
Ladyhawk -- I can't find a John James birth with mother's maiden name Hazell either. The only ones I can find are;
There is Elizabeth b March qtr 1849
George William b Sept qtr 1851
George b Jun qtr 1854
I also cannot find a marriage between a George James and a Sarah Hazell/Hazel.
So basically I am simply reporting a negative find!!
(We still don't know Robin - why you thought that William's mother was named Harriet.)
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1873 Marriage Registration Dec Qtr
William James=Emma Double Colchester Vol 4a Page 554
William was 23 and Emma 19
Indications are that William's father is George and mother Harriett but I cant find the family in any Census's that I can see post 1851! Perhaps someone has access to parish registers that may find Thomas and Harriett's marriage! Really frustrated! Anyone? Thankyou Robin.
Harriett now appears to be a red herring as it applied to family that I thought may have been the correct one but now I am more than ever convinced that William was indeed born in the Bristol area and subsequent leads look promising! Sorry that this has caused confusion! It is the nature of Family History Research sometimes! Regards Robin
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Thank you Robin -- don't worry - it would be boring if it went smoothly!!
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Thankyou everyone! There has been a lot of work done to get me this far! Why would William come to Colchester from Bristol.... seems an unusual move. I am now wondering if he was in the military as Colchester was and is a Garrison town! Robin
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Funnily enough, Robin there is a William James b abt 1849 in Bedminster, Bristol - enlisted in the Army in Liverpool in Nov 1871, aged 22 -- but became unfit for duty after seeing a medical board in Colchester in 1880.
However he was a Clock Maker by trade and his intended place of residence on discharge was Bristol.
He is possibly not yours - and if not, there was clearly another William James around at the same time as your William - and if both were born in Bristol around the same year - it could be causing confusion as to your William's birth record.
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I have now received the Marriage Certificate for William James (23) who married Emma Double (19).
The information is as posted by "Ladyhawk" previously ie
William James
Residence Golden Hill
Marriage 15 Oct 1873 Essex Colchester, St Giles
Spouse Emma Double Spouse's marital status S
Father George James occupation Lath Splitter
Spouse's George Double occupation labourer
Essex Record Office
In addition, the Certificate gives William's Rank or Profession as Private 50th Regiment.
I did wonder previously if he had come to Colchester because of the town's Army connection however I can find little reference to a 50th Regiment at the Garrison. I really am struggling. So near to his Marriage in 1873, I fully expected to find him locally in the 1871 Census. Also Golden Hill where they were both living at the time of their marriage is not a stand out street/road in Colchester unless it is the same as Golden Noble Hill for which there are several references on Google. I've been around the block a few times with this and am still none the wiser. Perhaps there is an attestation that might give me info but so far I have drawn a blank. I am hoping fellow Rootschat members might be able to throw some light where I have not been able, many thanks, Robin.
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Hi
The worldwide army index for 1871 has a William James in the 50th (The Queen's Own) Regiment Of Foot.
Regimental number 1410.
If you can access that it will tell you whereabouts in the world he was stationed.
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There is this...is it him?
Courts Martials Registers
William James of 50th Foot
9 Oct 1871, Aldershot
Ref WO 86/20
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Perhaps there is an attestation that might give me info but so far I have drawn a blank.
Not sure you are going to find that. But WO 97 pension records for some in the 50th Foot with similar numbers to WJ in 1871, John Morse, b. 1852 (1411), Henry Duck, b 1850 (1415), Edwin Delve, b. 1852 (1419) - all born Gloucestershire
Thomas Coleman, b Staffs 1850 (1408) , etc,
And all in the 1871 army index (muster rolls)
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1871 census, must be 1410?
50th Queens Own Regiment of Infantry at South Camp, Aldershot
piece 819 folio 38 page 22
William James, Unm, 20, Private, born Newport Monmouth
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRNF-3WH
Maybe this isn't the right William James? :-\
Essex newspapers have the 50th Regiment stationed at Colchester in 1873.
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Some great work there jonw65, many thanks. I need to take that all in. I'm sure we will get a breakthrough because I know there are people on Rootschat who are so good at what they do. I love doing genealogy but my experience is pretty limited. Regards Robin.
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We perhaps need someone to look at that court martial, see what it was all about.
The 50th foot we know were in Colchester in 1873, presumably with your William.
You would think the "lath splitter" occupation of George would help :-\
John
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I was beginning to think that father George James, lath splitter may be an alternative target, I have made tentative steps to find him. I thought I would have a chance of finding a George with lath splitter as trade in say 1861 with a 10 or 11 year old William! It aint been easy! :)
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Just looking in Monmouthshire in 1851 there are a couple of children named William James with a father, George - but one George is an Ag Lab and the other a Coal Miner at that stage.
The first is in Caldicot and the second in Risca -- the latter is within Newport Reg Dist. for sure.
There are also a couple of Williams living with a grandparent - which is no help.
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Thanks for taking the time Pennines, much appreciated! :)
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I have now received the Marriage Certificate for William James (23) who married Emma Double (19).
The information is as posted by "Ladyhawk" previously ie
William James
Residence Golden Hill
Marriage 15 Oct 1873 Essex Colchester, St Giles
Spouse Emma Double Spouse's marital status S
Father George James occupation Lath Splitter
Spouse's George Double occupation labourer
Essex Record Office
In addition, the Certificate gives William's Rank or Profession as Private 50th Regiment.
Have you looked at the witnesses to see if there might be any clues there?
Were they relatives?
I've also been looking but not found a George James with an occupation lathe splitter ???
I did look at this George
1861c Lower Church Street, Chepstow, Monmouthshire
George James Head 1809 Chepstow occ Labourer Timber
Eliza James Wife 1809 Chepstow
Eliza James Daughter 1854 Chepstow
then I looked at 1851 census same address George's occ Ship Labourer they do have a son named
William but he's born c1836 Chepstow
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Thankyou Ladyhawk. William's parentage does seem to be presenting a problem. I was hoping that William being in the Army may have shed light somewhere on his parentage. Certainly trying to find a fit for George, his father, in any Census preceding the marriage of William and Emma in 1873 is proving to be challenging! The witnesses are John Jones and an L A Jones
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A bit more on the army...
The 50th Foot were in Bristol in 1870 (did they arrive there in Dec 69?)
It seems that William might have joined up then.
WO 97 pension records for some in the 50th Foot with similar numbers to WJ in 1871, John Morse, b. 1852 (1411), Henry Duck, b 1850 (1415), Edwin Delve, b. 1852 (1419) - all born Gloucestershire
Thomas Coleman, b Staffs 1850 (1408) , etc
Now the two guys highlighted were both discharged in 1871, pension exam date 18 July
For those of us without access to their WO 97 documents we can see their records in WO 116 on the TNA image viewer for free
Images 29 and 30 (of 242)
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C613577
They are not the only men from the 50th on that date, but their numbers suggest they must have joined up about the same time as the William James from Monmouth.
And their records say they had both served 7 months.
Thomas had a hernia, poor Henry phthisis
There should be a record in 1872 for Edwin Delve (1419) but I haven't found it.
First child of William and Emma?
JAMES, MARY ANN JANE
Mother's Maiden Surname: DOUBLE
GRO Reference: 1874 S Quarter in COLCHESTER Volume 04A Page 323
Baptized at St Botolph, last year of the BT's!
4 October 1874, just Mary Ann
Father William a Labourer
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-YSL7-Y8H?i=518&cat=489962
Some trancriptions on FreeReg
John
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Wow -- great info Jon.
Out of interest a Lath Splitter (or variant name) -- appears to do the following job - this is taken from the Old Occupations website;
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Lath Renders or Lath Rivers
Lath rending by hand died out about 1936.
There were two types of lath renders, or lath rivers, one a standing river, the other a sitting river. The sitting river was the older version, using a bench with pegs to hold the wood in place. The standing river used a small axe, sharpened on two edges. The sitting river used a riving knife. The riving tools were made by local blacksmiths.
Three types of lath were made: single laths, laths and a half and double laths.
Double laths were used for roofs to hold tiles. Single laths for ceiling foundations,
Laths and a half were used for partitions. Fir wood was used for making laths: the trunks were split in half and the heart wood taken out. The sapwood was sliced along the grain, giving strength and elasticity to the lath.
At the height of their output, eight benches were being used, producing 60-70 bundles of laths in lengths varying from two to five feet, equivalent to 360 feet a week.
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I suppose we need to bear in mind that if George was still alive - that was his occupation at the time of William's marriage - and not necessarily earlier in his life.
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First child of William and Emma?
JAMES, MARY ANN JANE
Mother's Maiden Surname: DOUBLE
GRO Reference: 1874 S Quarter in COLCHESTER Volume 04A Page 323
Baptized at St Botolph, last year of the BT's!
4 October 1874, just Mary Ann
Father William a Labourer
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-YSL7-Y8H?i=518&cat=489962
Well found jonw65 - just had a look at the 1874 baptism and it gives their address as Vineyard Street - interestingly it looks as if Emma Double's mother is named Mary Ann and she has remarried and living at Vineyard Street in 1871, Mary Ann also there 1881 (no7) & 1891 (no 63).
I couldn't find anything definite for William James so I thought I'd try looking for his wife to be Emma Double on the census and on the off chance perhaps a James family might have been close by
I only checked 1 page back and 1 page forward not found anything! :(
For info. here's the census record for Emma
Vineyard Street, St Botolph, Colchester, Essex
Isaac FRENCH Head 1834 CoggeshallEssex
Mary Ann French Wife 1829 Gt. Clacton Essex
Joseph Double Son 1849 Ditto Essex
Thomas Double Son 1851 Colchester Essex
Emma DOUBLE Daughter 1855 Gt. Clacton Essex
Edward Double Son 1858 Colchester Essex
Elizabeth French Daughter 1860 Ditto
Alfred French Son 1865 Colchester Essex
1871c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFFY-226
Alfred FRENCH mmn HARBRIDGE
1865 M Quarter in COLCHESTER Volume 04A Page 280
Emma DOUBLE mmn HARBRIDGE
1855 D Quarter in TENDRING Volume 04A Page 178
There is a Mary HARBRIDGE bn 1827 Great Clacton, servant out of place daughter of
Edward & Elizabeth and is on the 1851 census living Rush Green Great Clacton with them are grandsons Joseph (1848) Gt Clacton & James Thomas Harbridge (1851) Colchester (no mmn), along with Mary’s siblings William, Henry & Emma.
FreeBMD marriage entry
1853 Colchester
George Doubble
Mary Harbridge
1859 Colchester
Mary Ann Double
Name on same page
Joseph Isaac French
Essex Marriages And Banns 1537-1935
George DOUBBLE father William, Husbandsman
Residence Little Horkesley
Marriage 29 May 1853 Colchester, St Nicholas
Spouse Mary HARBRIDGE
Spouse's marital status S
Spouse's residence S Nicholas
Spouse's father Edward Harbridge
Archive Essex Record Office
Joseph Isaac FRENCH father Joseph, labourer
Residence Black Boy Lane
Marriage date 19 Jun 1859
Place Colchester, St Botolph
Spouse Mary Ann DOUBLE
Spouse's marital status W
Spouse's residence Black Boy Lane
Spouse father Edward HARBRIDGE
I also had a look for Golden Hill like you could only find Golden Nobel Hill didn't spot a James family ???
Schedule no 66 starts address Golden Noble Hill - William Burns Head, Tailor
Schedule no 127 ends address Golden Noble Hill - Sarah Curlaw Lodger
Schedule No 130 Starts address Military Road Globe Inn - Thomas Webb Head Publican
RG10 1684 St Giles Colchester
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for info.
1861 census - surnames as transcribed ::) - original census surname FRENCH / DOUBLE
RG09 Piece 1097 Folio 55 Page 17
Vineyard Street, St Botolph, Colchester
Isaac Thanisch Head 1836 Bricklayer Colchester
Mary Ann Thanisch Wife 1830 Colchester
Joseph Dauth Son In Law 1848 Hawker Colchester
Thomas Dauth Son - 1850 Colchester, Essex
Matilda Dauth Daughter 1854 Scholar Colchester
Emma Dauth Daughter In Law 1856 Chalton (Clacton), Essex
Edward Dauth Son In Law 1858 Stanway, Essex
Elizabeth Herad Daughter 1860 Colchester
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Thankyou all for your recent posts.... I do have most of that information but thankyou very much.
Just to recap my challenge is to find the parents of William James, I.E. George and ?????
I have précised what has been discovered of William's history! I hope this is acceptable.
(Gleaned from some incredible detective work by Rootschat contributors. Thankyou!)
1899 Death Registration
Name: William James
Estimated Birth Year: 1849
Registration Year: 1899
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 50
Registration district:Colchester
Inferred County: Essex
Volume 4a
Page: 406
1891 Census St James Colchester
2 Brook Street
William James 42 Fishmonger b Bristol
Emma James 37 b Colchester
William James 14 b Colchester
Elizabeth James 12 b Colchester
Emma James 10 b Colchester
Edward James 8 b Colchester
1881 Census St Botolphs Colchester
Vineyard St
William James Hd 30 b Great Clacton
Emma James Wife 24 b Colchester
William 4 b Colchester
Elizabeth 2 b Colchester
Marriage 15 October 1873 Parish Church St Giles, Colchester
William James (23) Bachelor Private 50th Regt Living Golden Hill Father George James Lath Splitter.
Emma Double(19) Spinster Living Golden Hill Father George Double Labourer
Essex newspapers have the 50th Regiment stationed at Colchester in 1873
Courts Martials Registers
William James of 50th Foot
9 Oct 1871, Aldershot
Ref WO 86/20
The worldwide army index for 1871 has a William James in the 50th (The Queen's Own) Regiment Of Foot.
Regimental number 1410.
Census 1871
Hampshire Aldershot 50th Queens Own Regiment of Infantry
William James Unm 20 Private b Newport Monmouthshire.
The 50th Foot were in Bristol in 1870
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Thanks Robin - great to have all the info. for William James together
So will start looking to see if anything can be found for a
William James on 1851 & 1861 census born c 1848
1891c born Gt Clacton
1881c born Bristol or
1871c born Newport Monmouth
father George mother ? his mother might have been widowed same as his wife Emma Double's mother so he maybe under a different surname.
I take it that neither father's named George were noted as deceased on m/c
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There’s this baptism from family search
William James 21 May 1846 Caldicot, Monmouth
Parents George & Susan
At the moment the only William James I can find with parents George & Susan is bn 1836 :-\
1851 census but William James yob 1836 living Caldicot
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGTK-D9Z
Susan James Head 42 Caldicot, Monmouthshire pauper Ag lab
William James Son 14 Lanviangel, Monmouthshire pauper ag lab
John James Son 12 Lanviangel, Monmouthshire
Mary James Daughter 10 Cearwent, Monmouthshire
James James Son 8 Caldicot, Monmouthshire
Sarah James Daughter 6 Caldicot, Monmouthshire
George James Son 3 Lanviangel
1841c Upper House, Caldicot, Chepstow, Monmouthshire
George James 1811 Monmouthshire, labourer
Susan James 1811 Monmouthshire
William James 1836 Monmouthshire
John James 1838 Monmouthshire
James James 1841 Monmouthshire
Mary Williams Female 80 1761 Monmouthshire
Possible marriage
George James
29 Dec 1835 Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
Spouse Susannah Williams
EDIT to add
Found the original baptism for William James 21 May 1846 Caldicot, Monmouth
Parents George & Susan
William was baptised on the same day as his siblings John, Mary Anne, James and Sarah Jane at Caldicot no date of births given
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Thank you Ladyhawk for your tenacity. At the moment all submissions are welcome. I take the view that the younger the person the more likely the accuracy of a given age. In 1871 Census William is 20, In October 1873, the month of his marriage he was 23. In 1881 Census he is 30. After this his age goes a bit pear shaped. I am inclined to believe therefore that his year of birth was 1850/51. Also you have noted, he really has no recollection of where he was born, but each location given in a Census would appear to have some significance in his life thus far. The most intriguing is the 1871 Census giving Newport Monmouthshire as his birth place. It may not necessarily have been where he was born but somewhere that he associates with his younger life. It is important to keep an open mind in these situations and by doing so I believe we will find the solution to this poser eventually. 😀👍
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Another baptism in Monmouth have not checked for him on census to either rule him in or out yet
William James
Baptism date 23 Jun 1848
Place Caldicot Monmouthshire
Parents George labourer, Mary
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another to check
William James
Baptism 05 Aug 1849
Place Risca Monmouthshire
parents George, Collier Ann
from Genuki
RISCA, a parish in the upper division of the hundred of Wentllooge, county Monmouth, 5 miles N.W. of Newport, its post town.........
EDIT - he may have died
William James Age 24
Burial 04 Mar 1874 Risca Monmouthshire
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Bare with me everyone! I think I may have made progress.
1861 Census Bristol St George
Joseph Niblett 28 b Railway Porter b Elmore Gloucestershire
Harriet Niblett 29 b Monmouth, Trellick
William George James (Nephew) aged 11 b Monmouth, Trellick.
I had seen this entry some while back because at the time I was looking for William James b Bristol.
I had even forgotten that this William had been b Monmouth. Since then of course much progress has been made not least the 1871 Census that has William in 50th Regt in Hampshire b Newport, Monmouthshire.
Given Harriett was also born Trellik, I found her Marriage to Joseph Niblett that gave her maiden name as Griffiths. I now believed I had at least found William's mmn. So I went to the GRO Index and found the following.
William George James Sep Qtr 1849 Monmouth Vol 26 Page 99 Mmn Griffiths
I then checked Family Search for Harriett's christening and found the following
Harriett Griffiths Christening 22 Sept 1831 Monmouth Glos Father George and Mother Sarah
I then went to Free BMD to check for George James marriage to a Griffiths and found George James marriage to Mary Griffiths Mar Qtr 1847 Vol 26 Page 104 Chepstow.
Back to the Family Search to look for a Mary Griffiths born to George and Sarah and found
Mary Griffiths christening 26 May 1827 Monmouth Glos Father George and Mother Sarah.
I was still frustrated by the fact that I could not find George James and Mary in 1851 after all they were newly married with a 1 or 2 year old son! Then I chanced on this
Census 1851 Monmouth Cwmcarvan
George Griffiths Hd 56 Farmer of 50 Acres b Permatth
Sarah Griffiths Wife 62 b Cwmcarvan
George Son unm 23 b Permatth
Harriett Dau unm 18 b Trellick
Mary James Dau Mar 21 Ag Lab Wife b Permatth
William G James Gnd Son 1 b Trellick
(I have taken the "Permatth" spelling from the transcript but cant find it on Google? Anyone? )
Have I got the right William now? and where are you George? and where are you Mary post 1851?
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William George James Sep Qtr Monmouth Vol 26 Page 99 Mmn Griffiths
I had seen that entry and had not looked into it but had this saved.......
William George JAMES
Baptism date 10 October 1849
Mother Mary Father George
Father's occupation Labourer
Birth county MonmouthshireWales
Place or faith TRELLECK Monmouthshire Wales
Notes
Bethel Chapel
Record set Gwent Non-conformist Baptisms
genuki
"TRELLECK, a parish in the upper division of Ragland hundred, county Monmouth, 4˝ miles a of Monmouth, its post town, and 8 from Chepstow.
The village is situated near Beacon Hill, on the road from Monmouth to Chepstow, and has a mineral spring.......
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MON/Trelleck
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Bare with me everyone! I think I may have made progress.
Census 1851 Monmouth Cwmcarvan
George Griffiths Hd 56 Farmer of 50 Acres b Permatth
Sarah Griffiths Wife 62 b Cwmcarvan
George Son unm 23 b Permatth
Harriett Dau unm 18 b Trellick
Mary James Dau Mar 21 Ag Lab Wife b Permatth
William G James Gnd Son 1 b Trellick
(I have taken the "Permatth" spelling from the transcript but cant find it on Google? Anyone? )
Looking at the census I think it reads PENNALTH - not sure if this might be of help
http://www.penallt.org.uk/documents/kimber/places/village-names
a snippet from above.......
The map-makers, beginning with Saxton in 1579, wrote Pennalth as did John Speed in 1610. This spelling was used generally until 1694 when John Sellars seems to have become really confused and wrote Pennarth. No-one copied Sellars. Instead, map-makers worked their way through Pennallte, Penalth (the most common) and Pennalte. Penalt appears in a faculty requested by Dixton parish in 1817
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Thankyou Ladyhawk that is a useful piece of information. Robin
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1871 census, must be 1410?
50th Queens Own Regiment of Infantry at South Camp, Aldershot
piece 819 folio 38 page 22
William James, Unm, 20, Private, born Newport Monmouth
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRNF-3WH
Maybe this isn't the right William James? :-\
Essex newspapers have the 50th Regiment stationed at Colchester in 1873.
I have followed through on your excellent work and have established the parents of this William in 1871, the 50th did seem to move around a bit is it not reasonable to suggest that they could have moved from Aldershot to Colchester between 71 and 73. Robin.
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1841 Census Cwmcarvan
George Griffiths 45 Farmer
Sarah 50
Hannah 20
John 20
George 15
Sarah 15
Sharlot 12
Harriet 10
Matthew 7
Elizabeth Stacey 15
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Census 1851 Monmouth Cwmcarvan
George Griffiths Hd 56 Farmer of 50 Acres b Permatth
Sarah Griffiths Wife 62 b Cwmcarvan
George Son unm 23 b Permatth
Harriett Dau unm 18 b Trellick
Mary James Dau Mar 21 Ag Lab Wife b Permatth
William G James Gnd Son 1 b Trellick
address Petrewillers, Cwmcarvan, Monmouth, Monmouthshire
1841 Census Cwmcarvan
George Griffiths 45 Farmer
Sarah 50
Hannah 20
John 20
George 15
Sarah 15
Sharlot 12
Harriet 10
Matthew 7
Elizabeth Stacey 15
You have omitted Mary age 14
address Pentriwillin, Cwmcarvan, Monmouth, Monmouthshire
Edit - to add baptism of Sarah
Sarah Griffiths
Baptism 25 Feb 1826
Place Penallt
Father George, labourer Mother Sarah
abode New Mill
Mary Griffiths
Baptism 26 May 1827
Place Penallt
Father George, labourer Mother Sarah
abode New Mill
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Glad you are on my case Ladyhawk! :D :D Really frustrating that I recorded on scrap paper the 1841 Census, and then when I went back to check on either Ancestry or Family search couldn't find it again! Appreciate your interest on this case. Because James is such a common surname in these parts, it is so difficult to be absolutely sure I have the right William James, but at least we know that this father's name is George which is encouraging. There are others William James' in Monmouthshire who have similar dates of birth but not sure of them having George as a father. I'm still seeking George by the way who is absent from Mary living with her parents in 1851 when William is just one years old. I believe George is living at this time but perhaps incarcerated! Ideas anyone?
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Given Harriett was also born Trellik, I found her Marriage to Joseph Niblett that gave her maiden name as Griffiths. I now believed I had at least found William's mmn. So I went to the GRO Index and found the following.
William George James Sep Qtr 1849 Monmouth Vol 26 Page 99 Mmn Griffiths
I then checked Family Search for Harriett's christening and found the following
Harriett Griffiths Christening 22 Sept 1831 Monmouth Glos Father George and Mother Sarah
I then went to Free BMD to check for George James marriage to a Griffiths and found
George James marriage to Mary Griffiths Mar Qtr 1847 Vol 26 Page 104 Chepstow.
There's also this marriage 1848
21st Sept 1848
George JAMES f/a single occ labourer, LLa?hangel
father George, Labourer
Mary GRIFFITHS f/a single, farmer's daughter, Res. Torymynydd?
father George, occ Farmer
Witnesses John JAMES & Hannah Elizabeth GRIFFITHS
apart from John James who made his mark (x), all others signed their names
I can't attach a snippet for you to look at but I think the marriage was in the Parish of
Llanfihangel Tor-y-Mynydd, Monmouthshire
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Hannah Elizabeth Griffiths
Baptism 11 Oct 1818
Place Penallt
Father George, labourer Mother Sarah
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There are others William James' in Monmouthshire who have similar dates of birth but not sure of them having George as a father.
I'm still seeking George by the way who is absent from Mary living with her parents in 1851 when William is just one years old.
I believe George is living at this time but perhaps incarcerated!
Ideas anyone?
Haven't found the George you are looking for whose not with Mary and son William on 1851 census ???
There's another George & Mary JAMES with son William born c 1848
1851 Village, Caldicot, Chepstow, Monmouthshire
George James 1813 Ag Lab Caldicot
Mary James 1821 Caldicot
Ann James 1841 Caldicot
Sarah James 1843 Caldicot
Lidia James 1845 Caldicot
William James 1848 Caldicot
Henry James 1850 Caldicot
William James
Baptism 23 Jun 1848
Place Caldicot
Father George, labouer Mother Mary
William JAMES mmn CARTER
1848 J Quarter in OF CHEPSTOW Volume 26 Page 91
Lydia James
Baptism 28 Dec 1844
Place Caldicot
Father George, labourer Mother Mary
Lidia JAMES mmn CARTER
1844 D Quarter in OF CHEPSTOW Volume 26 Page 63
Henry James
Baptism 10 Feb 1850
Place Caldicot
Father George, labourer Mother Mary
Henry JAMES mmn CARTER
1850 M Quarter in OF CHEPSTOW Volume 26 Page 73
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I am currently looking at your post, Ladyhawk! I will feed back in time. Regards. Robin.
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Hi Robin - one last post for this evening........are the witnesses to George & Mary's marriage,
their siblings and did they marry each other?
25th July 1849
John JAMES f/a, single, labourer, Llanvihangel Tor-y-Mynd
Father George, labourer
Hannah GRIFFITHS f/a, single, Wonastow
Father George, farmer
Witnesses Ann GRIFFITHS & Henry Ja?es (possibly James)
All made their mark (x)
Perhaps there's a George, John and maybe a Henry James together on 1841 census :-\
Have not checked for John & Hannah James on 1851 census to check ages or places of birth
EDIT to add - think this is John & Hannah
1871 Near the Farm Penalt
John James Head 1823 Monmouthshire, Wales
Hannah E James 1819 Penalt Monmouthshire, Wales
Matthew J James Son 1850 Monmouthshire, Wales
Charlotte A James Daughter 1853 Monmouthshire, Wales
William H James Son 1858 Monmouthshire, Wales
Susanna James Daughter 1861 Monmouthshire
JAMES, MATTHEW JAMES Mmn GRIFFITHS
1849 D Quarter in OF CHEPSTOW Volume 26 Page 68
JAMES, CHARLOTTE ANN mmn GRIFFITHS
1852 J Quarter in MONMOUTH Volume 11A Page 44
JAMES, WILLIAM HOOK mmn GRIFFITHS
1858 M Quarter in MONMOUTH Volume 11A Page 44
1881 Woodbine Cottage
Hannah E James Head Married 1819 Ag Labs Wife Penallt, Monmouthshire
Matthew Griffiths Brother Widower 1834 General Labourer Cwmcarvan, Monmouthshire
William H James Son 1859 Ag Lab Llanishen, Monmouthshire, Wales
Edith Griffiths Niece 1871 Trelleck, Monmouthshire, Wales
Edith James Grand Daughter 1872 Penallt, Monmouthshire
1891 Woodbine Cottage, Hoop Road, Penallt, Monmouth
John James Head Married 1823 Farm Labourer Tor y myndyd Monmouthshire,
Hannah E James Wife 1818 Penalt Monmouthshire
William James Son 1858 General Labourer Llanishen, Monmouthshire
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Hannah Elizabeth Griffiths
Baptism 11 Oct 1818
Place Penallt
Father George, labourer Mother Sarah
Pretty sure this is Hannah nee Griffiths Surname wrongly transcribed on 1861c
1851 Shop Corner, Cwmcarvan, Monmouth
John James 1824 Agriculturer Lab Monmouthshire, Wales
Elizabeth Wife 1820 Penalth Monmouthshire, Wales
Mathew Son 1850 Monmouthshire, Wales
John Whitunn Lodger Unmarried 1818 Shepperd Gloucestershire
1861 Road, Trelleck, Monmouth
John Janes Head 1826 Labourer Monmouthshire, Wales
Hannah E Wife 1820 - Monmouthshire, Wales
Mathew son 1850 Llanishen, Monmouthshire, Wales
Sarah H Daughter 1853 Cwmcarvan, Monmouthshire, Wales
William Son 1858 Llanishen, Monmouthshire, Wales
Mary E Daughter 1854. Cwmcarvan, Monmouthshire, Wales
Hannah Daugher 1856 Cwmcarvan, Monmouthshire, Wales
Susannah Daughter 1861 Trelleck, Monmouthshire
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Wow.... Ladyhawk you have been busy. Thanks for all of that. I'm having a weekend off! Will be back on it very soon and will take my time to see clearly what you have recently posted. I do appreciate you taking an interest. It is time consuming but from my point of view keeping me sane through lockdown! :D
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Just looking in Monmouthshire in 1851 there are a couple of children named William James with a father, George - but one George is an Ag Lab and the other a Coal Miner at that stage.
The first is in Caldicot and the second in Risca -- the latter is within Newport Reg Dist. for sure.
There are also a couple of Williams living with a grandparent - which is no help.
I have followed through on George in Risca, the Coal miner, and he can be discounted as he still has William living in the family home in 1861 and 1871. Ladyhawk also indicated he may have died aged 24.
Regarding the William in Caldicot I could not find him in 1861 but he was back living with his widowed mother in 1871. Therefore both families can be discounted.
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"I am particularly interested in the Mary James and William below. William's father is George but not noted here. In fact he is an enigma and so is his wife Mary in that apart from this Census I cannot find either of them after 1851.
Census 1851 Monmouth Cwmcarvan
George Griffiths Hd 56 Farmer of 50 Acres b Permatth
Sarah Griffiths Wife 62 b Cwmcarvan
George Son unm 23 b Permatth
Harriett Dau unm 18 b Trellick
Mary James Dau Mar 21 Ag Lab Wife b Permatth
William G James Gnd Son 1 b Trellick
William in this family is in Bristol with his Aunt in 1861 I however cannot legitimately link him to the William in the Army in 1871."
Thanks to "osprey" it very much looks like the parents of William who married Emma Double in Colchester remain a mystery. Interesting as it has been to follow up on this family, it is evident that this is not the William I am seeking! It's back to the drawing board I'm afraid with a clean sheet of paper!