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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: colee on Sunday 10 May 20 21:24 BST (UK)
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Hi
I'm trying to track a great uncle, Miksa Weisz, who disappeared from the records in 1924 after his 3rd marriage to a Margit Friedmann in Vienna. They were both born in Budapest but I can't find a death for either. There are about 10 Miksa/Max Weisz that I have found in the Vienna Jewish death index from 1924, so I would have to go the synagogue record to find out if it is the Max I am looking for. The index only gives a volume number of 14. Could anyone help to decipher what this means?
Very many thanks
Colee
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...I've now worked out how to check back to the records from the index, I've looked through all the Max Weisz/Weiss entries up to 1938 and none is the right one, so my question now is where can I find deaths post 1938? It may be that he left Vienna to return to Budapest but I haven't been able to trace him there either.
Many thanks for any ideas
Colee
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Try genteam.eu - a growing database, free to users. You never know......
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Hi Colee,
Could you give us some more info about Miksa Weisz and Margit Friedmann? - e.g. ages, his occupation, was Margit previously married, was she of an age that they may have had children?
There is some good info on tracing ancestors here:
https://www.wien.gv.at/english/history/archives/ancestors.html
Perhaps you could trace them through the city directories? This wouldn't tell you if he had died or just left the area but it would at least give you some idea of how long he was in Vienna for.
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Thank you very much for both of those suggestions, I will look them up.
I attach here the marriage document of Miksa and Margit - he was born 4 March 1882 (Budapest), and Margit on 25 August 1890 in Tolna county, Hungary. So Margit was about 34, she could have had children but it is very possible the marriage didn't last - Miksa's daughter Joli (born 1914) from his first marriage (my cousin's mother) who was left in Budapest with grandparents (her mother died in 1918 in the Spanish flu) was sent to join his father (and presumably Margit) in Vienna for a while but was quite soon sent back to Budapest.
As for Miksa's occupation, I don't think he would have had a stable job, he had a reputation of being a bit footloose and not good with money, asking for his family to bale him out.
I have looked at the directories a bit, but it is difficult to get definitive info here unless there is a positive match on an address from say the marriage doc, as they both have very common names (there were 10 Miksa/Max Weiss who died in the period but none were the right one).
Many thanks again and if you have any more ideas I would be so grateful, I have been looking on and off for 'sightings' of Miksa for a few years now.
Best
Colee
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Hi,
The entry shows Miksa as being an Elektrotechniker (electrical engineer), in case that helps.
Best regards,
Karen
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Hi Karen
That's extremely interesting Karen, I couldn't make out what that said! I think that might help with the directories as their occupations were often listed too I think?
Hmmm I wonder where he studied in Budapest to get qualified.
Thank you very much indeed for that.
Best
Emma
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Hi - maybe Karen again?!
Does anyone know what occupation this reads as? It's a Vienna address for another relative who was there in 1924.
Very many thanks
Colee
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Maybe this is Max/Miksa?
A bit of a long shot, but his sister's brother-in-law lived on this same street for a while. Can anyone help with reading the German here?
Again, very many thanks
Colee
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Hi - maybe Karen again?!
Does anyone know what occupation this reads as? It's a Vienna address for another relative who was there in 1924.
Very many thanks
Colee
I think Bankbeamte = bank official
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Great, extremely grateful, that looks and sounds right!
thank you so much
Colee
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This Max Weiss of 21 Liechtensteinstrasse, who I wonder if he is the one I'm looking for (probably wishful thinking, and not the address on his marriage cert of 1924), has a different looking occupation the following year.
Would anyone very kindly be able to help me decipher them both?
Huge thanks
Colee
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Second one - Kaufmann - salesman, merchant
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Wonderful, thank you!
This is him in 1927... how is he described here?!
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..with a 3rd different number in 1928, no idea if that's unusual or not
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Reply #8 (and the first image in Reply #11) looks like Hdl. Agentie, Hosenträgererz., (Hosenträgererzeuger)
…which means he was a trading agency and was producing braces. The kind that hold your trousers up. ;D
Reply #13 is Wäschewarenerz. u. Handelsagent
…which means he was producing underwear and/or bedlinen and was a commercial agent.
Today, "Wäschewaren" would normally be interpreted as underwear, but I’m not sure if it was different back then. And we are talking about Austria, so the terms may have been slightly different. Whatever – he was producing stuff made from fabric, i.e. definitely not an electrician! :D
What do you mean by “a 3rd different number”? If you mean the number preceded by a “T”, then I think that’s the telephone number.
Best regards,
Karen
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Agree with the number being a telephone: one of the images has a phone icon.
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Thank you SO much Karen, really wonderfully helpful and extremely interesting, even this if this isn't the guy. However, I suspect that 'my' guy might not actually have been an electrical engineer. I've also just noticed that in 1926 there were 2 Max entries at this address (could of course be father and son), maybe one of them says 'prof'?
I think I will have to try to look into this Max anyway, to eliminate him, seeing as I seem to be fixated that this might be the one.
I'm also looking to see if I can match with any 'Margit' at the same address as a Max, and that name is much more unusual as it's used in the Hungarian form. There seem to be 2 Margit Weiss at the time in Vienna, but none seems to match a Max Weiss. Sadly. But maybe she used her maiden name so I'll check that too.
Very very many thanks for your help
Colee
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Thank you Graham, yes I meant phone number, it's just a bit odd that it keeps changing, that's all!
I meant to ask alongside the 'Margit' entries if anyone could help with both of those occupations too. Sorry my brain/eyes haven't got around this German script yet!
Very many thanks again
Colee
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Wow thank you Graham
I just found on genteam.at that they divorced in 1929, that was a great tip, it seems like a very good database!
That's quite a discovery, I really didn't expect them to be in Vienna as late as 1929, I'll be able to get another address from the divorce record. Exciting!
Best
Colee
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Here's the actual register entry, which helpfully confirms no children, but I can't see any addresses. And also reconfirmation about the occupations, so Margit was a tailor. And it seems Miksa definitely was an electrical engineer, although he didn't seem to be listed in the trade/profession directory. Maybe he worked for someone else so wouldn't have his own listing.
Would anyone know what the Hebrew entry says?
Many, many thanks for your continued interest.
Best
Colee
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Not totally sure about the word engineer in this context. In the UK someone who fixes your fusebox or your washing machine is called an engineer, but is in fact a technician. In Germany at least (and my guess is Austria would be similar) it would be wrong to call these trades engineers, as engineer is a protected term and needs professional qualifications - parallel to AMIEE or MIEE in UK, and there will be a prefix such as Dipl. Ing.
I await correction about this.....
These records from Vienna and elsewhere are so sad as many of these families were exterminated in the 1940s.
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Hi Graham
yes I suppose that is one of my drivers in trying to find what happened to relatives in the 1930s and 1940s. My grandparents were deported from Budapest in the summer of 1944 to Auschwitz, and would have been gassed on arrival I think, as they were in their 60s. Actually my grandmother was the only one out of 5 surviving (another 5 had died I think) siblings who was deported (although I don't know yet what happened to Miksa), many were in mixed marriages and managed to hide/escape.
On my grandfather's side, he had a brother whose death I haven't been able to pin down yet, and his other siblings may have stayed in Balassagyarmat in Hungary where they were born, and few from there escaped from being deported to Auschwitz, but again I haven't found them in any records, many of which were destroyed as well which makes it harder. But it would still be good to trace their journeys somehow if I can, and ultimately that's what I'd like to do. I've been researching on and off for about 3 years, I've uncovered a lot, but there are still many, many gaps. Miksa is one of them. So thank you all for your help!!
Best
Colee
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... but then also I'd like to find out if any I don't know about survived to see if there are any living descendants I can trace - to know they weren't all wiped out, and to make contact with them!
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I can understand (a bit)
I have found adopted Kindertransport children who I thought were British born but couldn't find the birth registration until I discovered the truth;
Some adult refugees;
One brave woman sheltering Jews in Berlin throughout;
One woman whose father was the only survivor of an extended family; it goes on.....
And I've been very moved by the Holocaust Memorial and the Jewish Museum in Berlin, along with the Stolpersteine in Freiburg and elsewhere. I found Theresienstadt a disturbing visit as well.
I guess I'm making suggestions that are too obvious - have you seen what help you can get from Yad Vashem? and www.jgsgb.org.uk ?
Some records are available at TNA, of course only for those who made it to the UK. You may be lucky: https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/refugees/
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Hi Graham
I didn't know about JGSGB, I'll look into that. Yes I've been in touch with Yad Vashem before, but didn't get very far, and actually it's not always best to rely on their own database. I found that a 1st cousin once removed was listed there I think as 'missing', but in fact I 'found' him (after many months of looking) back in Budapest under a different name, as of course almost all Jewish survivors in their countries post war changed their names - in his case to Varnai. He had escaped from a camp I think.
My father left Hungary in the late 1920s to go to university in Brno (not allowed to go to university in Budapest), and in fact never went back, he ended up in the UK after the war (via Florence, Singapore and India but that's another story) and kept his name - so Weiss was the name that I grew up with.
I am also pinning hopes on the Red Cross archives which are held at the Wiener Holocaust Library in London. Jewish research in the 1930s and 1940s is very difficult I think, but equally I have the feeling that there may be records somewhere, it's knowing where to look, and having the time of course.
Thank you for your suggestions again Graham
your one about genteam has given me the most info I've had in a long time! (although I fear that the trail may now go very cold...)
Best
Colee
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Hunting for Margit, I could only find a Margit Friedmann with correct father (Isak), and mother called Berta Weber instead of Sidonie Weber, with a different date and place of birth. But the combination of an Isak Friedmann with a Weber bride seems quite a coincidence. Please see attached, do you think this is a reasonable assumption?
I wonder if anyone can see on Margit's marriage certificate if Isak's occupation is a match, does the info include this, I can't read it.... So the Isak from Slovakia is a duvet maker.
thank you if you can help with this!
Colee
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Hi,
The marriage cert shows him as being a Kaufmann, i.e. salesman/trader/dealer/shopkeeper...
A bit vague, unfortunately.
Best regards,
Karen
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...actually I seem to have found Margit on Geni, which I don't have full access to. Odd because she didn't seem to come up on Ancestry or JewishGen.
Daughter of Izsák Friedmann and Szidónia Friedmann
Sister of Kálmán Friedmann; Ferenc Friedmann; Szerén Friedmann; Regine Friedmann; Ernest Friedmann and Irén Friedmann « less
I'll search using these spellings. So the Margit from Kassa isn't the right one then. Does anyone have access to Geni that could tell me more about her, the entry is managed by a Tomas Kertesz.
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none of these Friedmann names seem to come up on Ancestry at all in a connected family group:
izsak, szidonia, Kálmán, Ferenc, Szerén, Regine, Ernest, Irén
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Thank you Karen, that's such wonderfully helpful document deciphering...
Do you know if the notes next to the witness signatures say anything interesting?
this is all so very much appreciated
Colee
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Do you know if the notes next to the witness signatures say anything interesting?
You are very welcome! :)
I can't read the notes - the scan is too small - but I think it is simply the standard legal jargon with dates and references, maybe to the banns.
Maybe someone else here can confirm that..?
Best regards,
Karen
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Ok no worries thank you so much Karen!
Do you know how I can access the Geni info which seems to have located Margit Friedmann and family but they are not coming up on ANY other database that I check, which is most frustrating!
thank you again
Colee
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Hi Colee,
the note is very hard to read. Seems to be a lot of legalese about the divorce. Die Ehe wird fuer aufgeloest erklaert.
Hope this helps, regards Peonie
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Hello
Huge thanks for help so far with the divorce document. I have found the original document again, annoyingly I had forgotten where it was and hadn't properly made a note of the link, so it has taken me a while to pin it down again. Ancestry only has Vienna docs up to 1921, I had to go through the Familysearch catalogue, Matrikel, 1826-1943.
Here is the link for the marriage doc which will be a better quality of anyone is able to see it more. Apologies for the poor quality before.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-G1VJ-967S?i=429&cat=196164
Very very many thanks
Emma
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Thank you to Graham again for pointing me to Jewish Gen, I've used the database in the past but it has been developed massively since then - I posted the Hebrew on the site and it has kindly been translated, confirming names/occupations as the following:
The date, February 20th, 1929, is also given in Hebrew, below: the 10th of Adar I, 5589.
His information: Miksa Weiss, Hebrew name: Miksa son of Yakov, Budapest, occupation: electrical engineer, 42 years old, widower.
Her information: Margit nee Friedmann, Hebrew name: Margit daughter of Yitzchak, Bihar/Bikar Udwari, occupation: seamstress/dressmaker, 34 years old, single.
I also realised that the register runs across both pages, with new info on the right page (see photo attached). It seems that some of the divorcees paid a tax and others didn't (including Margit/Miksa) - does anyone know why this might have been the case?
thank you
Colee