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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: rusted on Friday 15 May 20 02:18 BST (UK)

Title: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: rusted on Friday 15 May 20 02:18 BST (UK)
I am doing some research for my niece whose Great Great grandfather is AH KHAN WOLL I have found his marriage to Jane Jones 1860, birth of their first son WILLIAM WOLL (or Wall) in Ashby (Geelong) in 1861, I can't find a birth record for their second son JAMES born 1862 who is my nieces Great Grandfather,  though I have discovered admission records for both boys who were institutionalised for neglect, on those records Jame's birth date and place of birth is Scarsedale.

Jane is buried in Scarsedale cemetery died 1894.
 
Ah Khan Woll is also known as Chan Woll on William's birth cert, also known as Ah Can Woll in a heap of Victoria Police gazettes from early 1870s to 1879 under "Statement of arrears due". By 1879 this amount had risen to 53 pounds, a huge debt for that time.
What is this Arrears Due, is it spouse maintenance or some other debt?
After those police gazette records Ah Khan vanishes, any help appreciated.

James seems to have taken on the surname Wall either in the institution or soon after.
 
Apart from William's birth and institutionalisation he is a mystery. Help appreciated here too.
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: sparrett on Friday 15 May 20 02:36 BST (UK)
The debts are arrears for payment for the maintenance of children in the industrial and reformatory schools. He last paid in Dec. 1871 and was then at Brown's Diggings.  There were no updates to his whereabouts from that time.

Sue
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: rusted on Friday 15 May 20 02:42 BST (UK)
Thanks sparret, that's what I thought too, I feel sorry for those boys, they were in those institutions for a long time.
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: rusted on Sunday 17 May 20 02:04 BST (UK)
Still no joy tracking William, though there are quite a few records of a William Wall being a naughty bloke around the right time, These records don't mention Chinese appearance though, which I assume being half Chinese descent he would still look Chinese. Sorry that's not being rascist, sometimes you need to put yourself in the mindset of people of the time. Even today someone of Asian appearance is described that way

We managed to get James' marriage certificate, James married ELLEN WOODS in 1904.
From that we found that his father Ah Khan Woll is now James Wall and his mother is Jane Wall, That James (not the Ah Khan, James) was previously married to CATH HAMILTON in 1889 but she has died (more on that in a moment). No issue from the marriage.

WE then found James' divorce deposition 1899 and found Cath Hamilton was in fact very much alive, she had moved out and taken residence with some seedy types in what is essentially a brothel. There are quite a few mentions of her being arrested for vagrancy and petty theft. She seems to be hanging around with Chinese which could suggest that she is also Asian looking or part Asian descent. She had custody of her and James' daughter Lily who was removed by the police for neglect. At one time when Lily was 9 an old Chinaman from Egerton took her to the doctor in Ballarat and they were noticed by the police, they were arrested and they went to court, Lily was examined by the Doctor and was still intact so the Chinaman Ah Tie was released. Lily was recommended by the court to go to "the schools" (reform school) but was released into the care of her father.
I think that Lily was probably very Asian appearance and that is why she was rescued by Ah Tie.

After this there is no mention of Lily.

Ah Kan Woll alias James Wall could still be around at Scarsedale after Jane dies in 1894, there is a mention of a James Henry Wall marrying an Ada Emily Kate Datson in 1900. But there are several James Walls in Ballarat around this time, even a policeman at Warrenheip.

PROV and BDM is playing hard to get and the Ballarat Cemetery search is completely off,  so I am beating my head against a partly demolished brick wall at the moment.
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 17 May 20 05:11 BST (UK)
I can help you with Ballarat Cemetery I think.
What exactly are we looking for?
Sue
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 17 May 20 07:01 BST (UK)
What information is on the death certificate of Jane WALL who died in 1894.
Who was the informant and what was stated about offspring, marriage etc?

I wonder if James at marriage really had much idea of his father's name and invented something that seemed acceptable for the times.

I think you can discount James Henry WALL of Scarsdale,
Here are news clips about her funeral.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/208465019
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/208464911

James Henry WALL voted in 1903, a resident of Scarsdale and a miner.

'Disqualification of coloured races. No aboriginal native of Australia, Asia, Africa or the Islands of the Pacific except New Zealand shall be entitled to have his name placed on an Electoral Roll unless so entitled under section forty-one of the Constitution.'

  There were exceptions to this, but just the same, this man seems unlikely as a candidate to me.

The spelling of Scarsdale is as I have it. I only mention it because you may get more hits in your searches with right spelling.

Sue
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: rusted on Sunday 17 May 20 08:58 BST (UK)
Thanks again Sue.
I don't know how that wrong spelling of Scarsdale crept in, I should know, a good portion of my mums side of the family comes from there.

We don't have Jane's death cert yet. We have been attempting to track down other leads and just put Jane on slow simmer.

Thanks for that bit about the electoral roll, I presumed that would be the case, and also presuming it's a similar reason to why why nothing much else is recorded.

Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 17 May 20 09:24 BST (UK)
Yes, Very often it was only negative behaviour on the part of Asian immigrants that was reported.

It seems likely that WOLL left town when it was known he owed such an amount for his children's care.

Jane JONES was your niece's g g grandmother. Certificates around her life events will be essential in building a strong history and support your further searches.

A worthwhile purchase in my opinion. ;D

Sue

 
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: rusted on Sunday 17 May 20 10:11 BST (UK)
Janes Death Cert is not much value, the informant is a Authorised Agent.
A lot of unknowns, buried in Scarsdale cemetery on 10 Feb 1894
Married to Cann Wall, issue William and James. That's about it
Died of general debility and old age.
My neice wants to find the grave but I think that will have to wait until she can access Woadi Yalloak historical society. She walked the cemetery today but didn't find anything. Poor people don't have much in the way of grave markers.
I agree about him leaving town to escape the debt, I have had a look around NSW, but I imagine a name change would have gone with the disappearing.

We have Jane and Ah Khans Marriage cert, we got a lot of value from that. He was a cook she was a housemaid at a big homestead down near Mortlake. Taken over by the Dennis family in 1865 (of Dennis Family homes).

Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 17 May 20 11:15 BST (UK)
Disappointing about the DC. But still a precious document to have.
Your niece will be lucky if there is any marker. Perhaps the best will be a general area for her interment.

A Chinese cook could find ready work anywhere in Australia at that time.  Possibly he moved on to the mines in a different states and put it all behind him!

I think his forward family will have known nothing of him except a vague name
A tough situation for all.

Sue
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: rusted on Sunday 17 May 20 23:50 BST (UK)
Thanks again Sue.

There are a few small things to follow up when places get their data bases up and running again, but realistically because of the Chinese heritage there's not going to be a lot we can find, Ah Khan Wall probably became Joe Bloggs and faded into the background in Bathurst or somewhere. William Wall probably did the same after a few run ins with the law. I shudder to think what may have happened to Lily, probably back to hanging around the shady areas near the Red Lion Hotel and York St Ballarat East.
I really wish they would release the digitised version of the Ballarat Courier.
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: sparrett on Monday 18 May 20 00:45 BST (UK)
I will have a look through my Ballarat Cemetery resource for any sign of Lily.
What do you think was her date of birth?

Do you know what became of her mother apart from returning to the streets?
Was she using the surname WALL.
Sue
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: majm on Monday 18 May 20 00:52 BST (UK)
Hi there,

I have a great deal of offline material for around the Central Western and Far Western areas of NSW for much of the 19th century.   May I mention that KHAN is often a surname associated with Cameleers from Afghanistan rather than from Cantonese Cooks, although 'AH' would be unlikely to be pointing to Cameleers. 

NSW State Archives : https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/

or https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research  - there's digitally available Gaol photos there for the surname KHAN.    There's also AH as a given name, and AH as a surname.

I will not have spare moments to check further for at least a couple of days, but I have added this thread to my TO DO list.

JM
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: rusted on Monday 18 May 20 02:48 BST (UK)
Sue
LILY WALL was apparently born in 1890, Calculated from her father JAMES WALL divorce deposition.

Ballarat cemetery is back on line and she doesn't appear there as far as I can see.

LILY's mother CATHERINE WALL I found in a common grave in Ballarat cemetery, from that I found an inquest into her death in the Ballarat Mental Asylum in 1921.

Ballarat Cemetery and PROV are both back on line now, I have had a quick look through Reform and Industrial school records, court records and jail records but no luck finding LILY. She could be there but it would require a thorough search which I am not sure I really wish to do.

MAJM
Thanks for the offer, don't put too much effort in, AH KHAN WOLL had a huge debt at the end of the 1870s, then nothing is heard from him again, I think he vanished himself.
The marriage cert of AH KHAN WOLL and JANE JONES has him signing his name in Chinese characters. He was from Amoy? Canton, The certificate also has his parents but it's very difficult to distinguish which is father and mother. He was a cook. Jane was a housemaid.
I will have a look through those jail records later.
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 18 May 20 07:29 BST (UK)
Rusted,

Have you managed to interpret his parent’s names from the marriage certificate. If not, there must be many people who can read (presumably Cantonese?) who can help you with that, and also determine which is the mother and which is father.

There are also online translators which can translate these characters I believe.

Good luck with this very difficult search.  :)

Added: For those who were in trouble with the law, have you checked the relevant documentation in case mug shots were taken? Sorry I don’t know if such things exist for your times and places, though I have seen them in other archives.


Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: rusted on Tuesday 19 May 20 00:09 BST (UK)
Thanks Russkie
The marriage cert is written by the minister so is not exactly illegible even though it is scrawl.
In the parents column Ah Khans parents are written as Mah Gow       
                                                                                  Tah Mi Woll
                                                                               maiden name Tahmi Hoy

That is a bit confusing, I presume Mah Gow is the father? Has the minister just omitted the Woll? Tah Mi Woll is the mother I presume as it has her maiden name.
Ah ha, now that I have written it out it looks so obvious that the minister left out the family name of the father. Not confusing at all.

Jane Jones parents are William Jones and Lydia Jones nee Roberts from Bangor Wales, fun tracing Jones and Roberts in Wales, not to worry I managed to build up a little family before all the Jones got too confusing.
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 19 May 20 03:39 BST (UK)
I misunderstood and thought that the certificate contained Chinese characters. It probably would have been easier if it had done rather than having a western interpretation of the names. Very difficult for you. I presume the father's name would be the first name - same order as Jane's parents.

Chinese genealogy - there must be a way to research it, but it may require employing a specialist.

If you haven't already done so, ask for help with your Jones and Roberts on the Wales boards. There is some skill and knowledge required with the Welsh patronymic system and there are plenty who should be able to help you.

I don't know if this will be of any help as I have no idea of the uptake of DNA tests in China, but has your niece considered taking a DNA test? At the least she might find matches of Chinese descent living elsewhere in the world. With luck she may find that some of her matches might know more about that side of her family.
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: rusted on Tuesday 19 May 20 08:51 BST (UK)
Thanks Russkie.
The biggest hurdle is that the Chinese were non people. As Sparret said unless they did something wrong they didn't exist.
Yes there are Chinese characters on the certificate Ah Khan signed his name in Chinese, that's all.

I had eyed off the Wales board, I will ask my niece if she wants to go further back with the Welsh side.

 She is new to genealogy and we are trying to teach her correct methods. We researched the sheep station where Ah Khan and Jane were married to see if we could squeeze any more information from it. We didn't find much but we had a lot of fun and found that that's where the Polwarth breed of sheep was developed. So we learnt something.
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 19 May 20 08:54 BST (UK)
There’s always plenty to learn. Best of luck with the search.  :)
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: rusted on Thursday 21 May 20 03:38 BST (UK)
Here is Ah Khan and Janes marriage certificate, I hope.
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 21 May 20 06:16 BST (UK)
Slightly unusual that Jane married in her maiden name even though she was a widow. Not unheard of but less commonly seen.
(Unless she married a JONES as well as being nee JONES :-\)

Have you any information about her deceased first husband?

Were there half-siblings to the WOLL children?



Sue
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: rusted on Friday 22 May 20 03:39 BST (UK)
Yes that is unusual Sue, I haven't been able to track down her first husband or if there was any children to that marriage. Looking for a particular Jones in Wales is a bit of a puzzle.
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: majm on Friday 22 May 20 03:52 BST (UK)
She made her mark.  I think it very likely that the clergyman simply wrote  her X mark surname as JONES because it was the name he had recorded as her maiden name.  She may well have not been aware of what the clergyman actually wrote down.   :) :)

ADD ... that same clergyman was responsible for recording any children of that first marriage and is there ...  the squiggly line to show NONE ...

JM  Edit to correct some poor grammar.
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: majm on Friday 22 May 20 04:11 BST (UK)
If her first husband's surname was ROBERTS  (see her parents names on the mc and where the clergy has then recorded 'maiden name Roberts')  then in 1854 there's at least three deaths indexed on the Vic BDM that may be of interest.   Two have 'place of birth' as Nth Wales and from their ages they were born 1830s..... the third one was born Sth Wales, but was aged 45...


Ref 652/1854
Evan ROBERTS, aged 19

Reg 1198/1854
Pierce ROBERTS, mother as Elizabeth WILLIAMS ... Father as Robert Pierc

https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/search-your-family-history

JM
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: sparrett on Friday 22 May 20 05:46 BST (UK)
.
If her first husband's surname was ROBERTS  (see her parents names on the mc and where the clergy has then recorded 'maiden name Roberts')  then in 1854 there's at least three deaths indexed on the Vic BDM that may be of interest.   Two have 'place of birth' as Nth Wales and from their ages they were born 1830s..... the third one was born Sth Wales, but was aged 45...


Ref 652/1854
Evan ROBERTS, aged 19

Reg 1198/1854
Pierce ROBERTS, mother as Elizabeth WILLIAMS ... Father as Robert Pierc

https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/search-your-family-history

JM

I had taken that to be the maiden name of her mother, Lydia

Sue
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: majm on Friday 22 May 20 07:36 BST (UK)
Yes,  agree, ROBERTS ought to be the maiden name of her mum,  but I can speculate, particularly when there's a young widow with a very popular Welsh surname .... and we are given the month year but not the jurisdiction ,  I may have added 2 plus 2 and got 64... she may have arrived in Vic when it was still NSW ....  I hesitate to speculate on asking if her d.c. has any clues.... as it would be unlikely to help advance the Ah Khan Woll quest.

 :)


JM
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: sparrett on Friday 22 May 20 09:01 BST (UK)
In Reply #8 this thread, rusted replied to my query about DC information for Jane.
Scanty and inconclusive  ::)

Sue
Title: Re: Ah Khan Woll.
Post by: rusted on Saturday 23 May 20 00:27 BST (UK)
Thanks Sue and MAJM, I think in this case we have to canvas a few strange possibilities, even if only to discount them, speculation and investigation does help to weed out incorrect information.